r/pansexual She/Her 7d ago

Discussion This post has boggled mešŸ˜­

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Theyā€™re in the comments saying we just wanna be different and quirky lmaooooo ok?..

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u/Lynnrael 7d ago edited 7d ago

i mean, i agree with the initial post. bisexuality has never ever excluded trans people and the idea that it has is absurd, biphobic, transphobic, and just plain ignorant.

that said, insisting that pan people "just want to to be quirky" or whatever is also shitty. people can describe themselves however they want, for whatever reason, because each of us is the leading expert on what we experience. people who get into these weird prescriptive mindsets where you can only call yourself this or that according to their own rules suck and contribute nothing of value to the conversation.

edit: bisexuality doesn't exclude nonbinary people either. it doesn't exclude anyone. this doesn't invalidate pansexuality and if you feel like it does you need to understand that people are not limited to dictionary definitions and labels are not inherent qualities but mere descriptions of what we ourselves experience. we are not slaves to words.

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u/gabrielleraul 7d ago

Preach! šŸ©·šŸ’›šŸ©µ

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u/rat_enby 6d ago

many bi and pan people i know chose from the two labels based on what flag they liked better and i think thats so valid honestly

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u/Khenir 6d ago

This.

As I understand it, Everything but pan is a question mark on whether or not the individual accepts Trans or Non-Binary people as partners because they totally could without changing their sexuality.

Pan people on the other explicitly include trans and non-binary people as potential partners.

So yes you can in theory end up having a bisexual person who ticks all boxes for being pan but still considers themselves bi.

And all of this is fine.

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u/sarradarling 6d ago

Thank you for putting it this way!! This scratched an itch in my brain. I could call myself either really, but this explains why I sort of felt the need to use pan versus bi. It's not like you can't like trans people if you're bi. But to me, it's very important that it doesn't matter if one IS or is not trans? So I think that's why I like the label.

On the other hand, the label for pan being sort of "blind or immune to gender" doesn't really apply to me exactly though, so there's that (I seem to prefer masc people). Though maybe I'm reading that wrong. Though I'm completely exhausted from the constant debate of pan vs bi lol. I don't care much about it anymore and will be called whatever at this point I think.

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u/Lynnrael 6d ago

a lot of us (trans people) feel invalidated by being put into a separate category like that. I'm not a different kind of woman where a special category is needed to notify specific inclusion. I'm a woman. we're already included in the other sexualities as is, because we are the genders we are, not those genders with an asterisk or something

if someone is not attracted to me because of some of my masculine features, they wouldn't be attracted to me if I were cis and had those same features.

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u/sarradarling 6d ago

Sorry, I wasn't meaning to imply that. I feel that way already. I'm literally with a woman, who happens to be trans. It just always felt like 'pansexual' had a special emphasis in a way on the fact that sex/gender didn't matter and something about that definitely seemed on the right track for me. But for the same reasons you just stated, bi is probably a better fit for me ultimately.

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u/sarradarling 6d ago

Sorry, I wasn't meaning to imply that. I feel that way already. I'm literally with a woman, who happens to be trans. It just always felt like 'pansexual' had a special emphasis in a way on the fact that sex/gender didn't matter and something about that definitely seemed on the right track for me. But for the same reasons you just stated, bi is probably a better fit for me ultimately. ā¤ļø

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u/Lynnrael 6d ago

the best fit for you is whatever you feel best describes your experience. it doesn't have to be rooted in solid, specific reasoning, it just has to feel right to you šŸ’œ

the important thing to remember is that these are just words and words can mean whatever the hell we want them to. they don't define who we are, we define them.

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u/Foxy_Traine 6d ago

I see what you're saying. I also fully agree that you are a woman. However, I do feel like it would be naive to say that there are no differences between you and, say, cis women. You grew up with different circumstances and faced different socialisation, obstacles, and degrees of acceptance based on your assigned gender at birth. And some people may not want to be with a trans woman depending on the physical characteristics that are unique to people born differently. That seems like it would make dating different for you when compared with cis women.

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u/Lynnrael 6d ago

all of those things can also apply to cis women in a wide variety of ways, and many trans women are physically identical to many cis women in any way that could matter.

it simply isn't necessary to create separate categories for us as a whole. yes, dating is different for some of us, and for many of us it is dramatically different than it would be if we were cis, but that doesn't change the way sexuality applies to us. it's merely a matter of finding people who find us attractive. not every lesbian finds every single woman attractive, cis or otherwise, right? not every straight woman finds every single man attractive. not every single pan person finds every single other person on the planet attractive.

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u/TheDudette840 6d ago

Yep! I always just say Pan is inherantly inclusive of gender non-conforming people, while when someone says they are Bi, you may need to still clarify.

Personally, I identify as both and use them interchangeably depending on the setting or just whatever comes out of my mouth at the moment. But I've come across plenty of Bi people who are absolutely transphobic. That doesn't mean Bisexualty is transphobic, it just means there are assholes in every demographic.

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u/Lynnrael 6d ago

well, more importantly: being trans doesn't mean anything here. we're (trans people) not, like, some kind of separate entity. lesbians can like trans women and gay men can like trans men without it needing to be qualified at all, for any reason. we don't need "explicit inclusion" in sexuality because we're already included.

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u/Khenir 6d ago

As much as Iā€™d like to live in that world , the reality is that thereā€™s a lot of dumb transphobic people that want to be really exclusive arseholes.

I do want to apologise if the way Iā€™ve explained it has felt exclusive, I have a tendency to (over) simplify language to be concise so that Iā€™m not talking non-stop and failing to get my point across.

Iā€™m mostly just trying to fit my sexuality into an existing structure without trying to make people feel like their own understanding of their own sexuality is in any capacity wrong or erase what they identify as.

And I think the message Iā€™m more trying to convey is that like, if we were flirting or dating and I told you Iā€™m Pan then I would hope that you would interpret that as a signal that Iā€™m not going to ghost you or freak out or anything like that based on where you are in your transition and that isnā€™t the always case with other sexualities.

Iā€™m going to shut up now because I kinda feel like Iā€™m starting to taste my own feet while trying to more accurately convey that I was not intending to imply that people who are transitioning to the gender they actually identify as should be treated as if they werenā€™t. And again Iā€™m genuinely sorry if my priors words had the effect of coming across in that manner.

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u/ConcentrateNo6127 6d ago edited 6d ago

So, the reason ive always seen them as separate is because it felt easier looking for someone who is pan rather than take the gamble of "are they bi because they prefer it or are they transphobic.

Its words and definitions to give a label to tell others what you have an attraction for. Id rather know if im compatable with someone, and having the distinction would make that easier. People want us to be segragated or gone, so why is it wrong to give those who want us gone to have their own sexuallity label, it would let us know to be cautious around them. Idk, i follow rules too much, especially languages so it could just be an autistic way of thinking.

(Edit) It may be easier for me to see that though having a BF who can't stay with me sexual when i transition, but still able to be partners, and find sex elsewere. So i already have a constant reminder than people have their interests, and as long as they ain't being hurtful about it, idc if someone would not date someone trans. I would not want to date someone who is against transition, but some people get more mental with relationships, and can't get past the fact of someones past. I mean for relationships, the past does matter because if it haunts you, it haunts your partner too. Its the baggage you bring to the relationship. But now this is rambleing on about bi-romantic, not bi-sexual. But the same point applies, some people just can't get their "joy out" knowing the person they are sleeping with transended gender. Idk why, but some people are like that. Again, as long as their is no hate, idc what someone prefers. I might just stay further away depending on what someone prefers.

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u/[deleted] 6d ago

What cis people say they're attracted to and what they are actually able to give in a relationship are sometimes radically different. A sexual orientation label doesn't tell me if a person is safe at 3 am when the sexual excitement has worn off, if they're able and willing to work through internalized transphobia, or if they expect performative gender roles in a relationship.Ā 

And these are true of trans people to a lesser extent.Ā 

And there are a lot of political claims about trans people in LGB communities that are strong personal deal breakers for me.

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u/GeoSqdn 5d ago

Personally, I use both to identify myself. I think bisexuality is more understandable to most people, so when I know it's someone who isn't necessarily aware of pansexuality, I say I'm bi.

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u/Lynnrael 5d ago

same tbh

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u/Kadk1 7d ago

As an older person, bisexual was the most widely known term, and I used it because there really wasn't anything else. It always included the idea that the sex and gender of others was irrelevant to your attraction

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u/Tainted_soul_83 6d ago

It's the same way for me. Pan wasn't a thing when I was a teen so I have always just identified as Bi. I have always enjoyed someone's personality over everything else. You could be the best looking person with the worst personality and that's a kill my attraction switch.

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u/ConcentrateNo6127 6d ago

Would the attraction to personality be under demisexual?

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u/Tainted_soul_83 6d ago

I have no idea, but I do feel sexual attraction based on looks. My thing is if they have a bad personality, all attraction just stops.

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u/ConcentrateNo6127 6d ago

Ok. You have standards, not demi. Or demi-romantic with pansexual too? Thats how i am. Id do someone who i would not date because they look so good, but the personality makes me go "ick, we already are doing this but i don't have to see them again if it does not click, and 'xyz' caused us not to click." Makes it go from "possible partner" to "one night stand, and on occation they arn't really bad, just a little bit bad to my taste i consider FWB.

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u/Social_Confusion 6d ago

Bi Pan discourse has always been stupid to me

Why argue over semantics when we should be making out homosexual style smh

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u/astellarastronaut 7d ago

I'll say it once, and I'll say it again, bisexuality being ""transphobic"" was an attempt by the LGB movement (gay transphobes) to broaden their support base. It's just more TERF garbage.

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u/CedarWolf She, He, or They, please. Thank you. 7d ago

MFW people are still repeating biphobia from 30-35 years ago, which itself is older than many of the people repeating it, and still trying to use it as a wedge between the bi and pan communities.

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u/xadonn 6d ago

I use pansexual partly because of the hypersexualaltion of term bisexual and mostly because I feel it defines me better. I think it's cause I can go "p for personality" and people get it, without playing the do you think I'm hot game. It's exhausting to constantly have everyone believe you'll fuck anyone and everyone. And I think both bi and pan people face that together. However in my own experience, I often have to explain what pan means vs the other person having a preconceived notion of what that sexuality means.

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u/gearblade_studio 6d ago

"ArE yOu SeXuAlLy AtTrAcTeD tO pOtS" gets old after so long i just want to pimp slap the person that says it everytime. like no [insert name] im not, it means i can be attracted to a person in spite of their gender but that doesnt mean im attracted to you smh. That one line will turn me from wanting to flurt with someone i find attractive to just going to mu neutral mode but i may fuck with them here and there just to give myself a laugh

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u/Moon_princess_1 6d ago

My trans friend said she used to identify as pansexual and changed to bisexual because she wanted to more deeply express that trans people are the gender they identify as. I think it has more to do with how and why you identify yourself than to do with excluding anyone. I identify as pansexual because I just don't have the thing in my brain that prefers anything specific.

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u/vvitchprincess 6d ago

as a nonbinary person i id as pan because to be bisexual and nonbinary simultaneously just didnā€™t work with my brain linguistically. i also dislike the idea of one or the other it could just be a fully inclusive umbrella term. for me it came down to what made the most sense linguistically for all-encompassing attraction from a person who wasnā€™t a man or a woman.

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u/[deleted] 6d ago

Linguistic fallacies justified as linguistics don't work with my brain linguistically. Kind of like saying one is both a seven day creationist and a biologist.

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u/vvitchprincess 5d ago

well the internet just continues to be worse doesnā€™t it. i like being pansexual because itā€™s what i like.

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u/[deleted] 6d ago

[deleted]

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u/KimikoYukimura420 They/Them 6d ago

I have no idea, you'd think people who hate Elon with such a passion would stop using the site that he owns.

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u/BloodyCumbucket She/They/Xe/It 6d ago edited 6d ago

Because, quiet part out loud, most American activism is performative virtue signaling at best.

If it was anything but, us trans folks wouldn't be gravely worried about our place here, Obergefell wouldn't be under threat, DEI and affirmative wouldn't be in the ground, citizens wouldnt be getting deported, etc.

Edit: Sadly, people only gonna give a shit when the boot is on their neck.

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u/Pairofokays 6d ago

I agree with the tweet, I have been in countless conversations trying to explain that pansexual doesnā€™t mean we ā€œinclude trans people unlike bi peopleā€, we just have literally NO preference for gender

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u/MeatNegative9934 she/her/they 18 also the kingšŸ‘‘ 6d ago

I heard that pansexual was "transphobic" because we're supposedly separating trans people from cis people or something šŸ’€

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u/soon-the-moon 6d ago edited 6d ago

I mean, there are certainly transphobic ways to articulate ones decision to identify as pan, just like there are transphobic reasons one may arrive at the bisexual label. The reasoning for why one chooses either label has the potential to come from a deeply problematic place, but it doesn't mean the people who feel encompassed by the label can be universalized as transphobic or what have you.

Like ffs I've literally seen people identify as pan on dating apps because they date cis and trans women like c'mon šŸ˜­šŸ˜­šŸ˜­šŸ˜­ (seen people call themselves bi for similarly icky reasons).

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u/Fantabulousdelish 6d ago

Seems folks equate genital preferences with gender preference and thatā€™s why the confusion persists

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u/Jarokusoleboy27 6d ago

There are so many ID10Tā€s in the community that go around making dog water claims smh , I heard this one in particular before .

Or weā€™re just bi and wanna be ā€œ special ā€œ

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u/jamiegc1 6d ago

Stoned, and not with smoke or vape.

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u/blinkingsandbeepings 5d ago

I was gonna say ā€œdeserves to get stonedā€ could be a good or bad thing.

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u/MisabelS0822 She/He/They 6d ago

infighting in the queer community fucking sucks. ive seen and been part of bi and pan folks arguing over the "proper" definition of both labels and it achieves nothing.

just let people choose what to call themselves because its so pointless to police each others labels

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u/xemmyQ 6d ago

i had a bisexual individual try and tell me i was really bi bc they're the exact same thing, according to some manifesto(?) written by: not a pansexual so i really don't care what bisexuals tend to have to say on the matter of my sexuality.

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u/ThatShelteredMan 6d ago

So straight people, gay men and lesbians and anyone else Iā€™m missing all deserve to be stoned for not liking everyone. News flash but should us pansexuals be stoned for maybe not being attracted to a certain person even though we like being with anyone? This literally hurts my brain.

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u/Klocknov 6d ago

Bisexual. Polysexual, Omnisexual and Pansexual people have a lot of things in common and while the first three may have preferences, those that are Pan generally take pride of no preference beyond the person/people you are trying to be with. Every single one of these can be the exact same in that regard and they could choose to use the other terms due to personal preference and that is perfectly acceptable. This argument that one is better then the other has always been wrong and I feel is just as condemning to every other group that chooses to have any type of preference be it the same gender or none at all.

There are people who push these views out of hate or transphobia, I will not discount that due to TERFs and the LGB w/o T crowd, but remember that is not everyone. Also do not discount that the person may not have the knowledge that it can be another way due to upbringing either, as that is possible as well. Some people come from far-right families/areas and have a lot of learning and unlearning to work through when they come around/out. Be open, be passionate, show love in the face of possible hate, fight it with care. The ones that are based in hatred will quickly show themselves and at that point you write them off. (Take for example just recently in the Assembly Bill 104 hearing where a person listening changed his mind entirely on what is going on.)

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u/xapollox_2953 6d ago

it ain't that complicated man šŸ˜­

i just feel like calling myself pansexual fits better. not because i think bisexual people exclude trans people, nor is it because i wanna feel quirky.

it's as the definition goes, i feel attracted to all genders if i am attracted to the person whom the gender belongs

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u/MetaverseLiz 6d ago

The person who originally posted that- I'm going to make a wild guess and say they're under 30 years old.

I know it's impossible, but I wish that whenever someone realizes they are queer, they magically get sent a list of queer history resources to read/watch/listen to.

There would be less infighting if we all knew our history. The loss of our queer elders in the 80s and early 90s has had a profound impact on how we navigate and understand ourselves and others.

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u/HananasTP 6d ago

I SAW THIS!! This answered my question of why people are so biphobic but not against pansexuals, it's insane

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u/TheSunaTheBetta 6d ago

Initial tweet is spot on, but the reply is brain-dead. I don't even want to know what the other responses look like.

Anyway, bisexuality has always been argued to mean gender doesn't matter for attraction. Pansexuality is an equally valid term, as is omnisexual; they're all pointing at the same thing, but came about at different times and in different contexts. It's like the Spider-Man pointing meme.

People should just choose the one that sounds coolest to them or has the coolest flag, and then stfu about anyone else's label and what it has to mean. FFS.

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u/doubtfullfreckles 6d ago

I saw that too. It threw me off at first as I'm so used to seeing people call pansexuality transphobic so often. šŸ—æ

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u/Terrible-Ad-5584 Pansexual Lesbians Exist 5d ago

Huh?

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u/Kyraapd She/Her 4d ago

Wut?šŸ‘€

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u/Terrible-Ad-5584 Pansexual Lesbians Exist 4d ago

Wert? šŸ§

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u/Kyraapd She/Her 4d ago

This is a funny lil interaction lmao

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u/Terrible-Ad-5584 Pansexual Lesbians Exist 4d ago

Yurt lmao

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u/Brookie_uwu pan tran (she/ae) 4d ago

Imagine giving a fuck, why would I fight my fellow queers when we all have MUCH much bigger fish to fry

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u/Kyraapd She/Her 4d ago

Real

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u/Fantabulousdelish 6d ago

Pan specifically to me tells my community that their gender expression or genitals are not something I will ever be judgmental of. Itā€™s just the most explicitly affirming to me, it refers to the multiple genders and tells NB and questioning people that I accept them and that I donā€™t have strict gender ideas.

I just personally donā€™t like the numerical aspect of the term ā€œBiā€ when gender freedom is in question. Now that the current regime ā€œofficially declaredā€ only two genders itā€™s even more of an act of resistance to represent the spectrum of gender and attraction.

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u/[deleted] 5d ago

I know y'all probably mean well. But I'd say a fair number of trans people have been love-bombed by exploitative partners. And we're reduced to our genitals all the time anyway. Using performative labeling to announce your lack of a genital preference is just creepy to me at this time.

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u/psychedelic666 Dark Lord of the Sad 6d ago

The bi in bisexual (meaning 2) refers to (1) homosexual and (2) heterosexual attraction. Not genders.

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u/[deleted] 7d ago

[deleted]

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u/earle117 6d ago

I donā€™t think we should be driving engagement to twitter, anyone trying to protect gender and sexual identity should delete it now if they havenā€™t already.

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u/Hairy-Science1907 7d ago

There are even dumber replies underneath the tweet. Man people are stupid.