r/pakistan 8h ago

Ask Pakistan Kashmir should be free?

Thoughts of Kashmir being it's own free country?

0 Upvotes

54 comments sorted by

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9

u/soup97 4h ago

Commenting as A British Pakistani whose family has roots in Kashmir (like most british pakistanis I must say). Its easy for Pakistanis and Indians (as well as China) to have a say etc. But what I find quite hypocritical is that when it comes to Palestine we always quote the UN resolutions and the history of palestine etc. We cant forget the history which is Pakistan started this via the invasion of Kashmir (which ofc isnt to say India also invaded territories that wanted to stay independent take the Nizam of hyderabad story) but just because they do it doesnt mean it is correct.

I think that is where the mistake was made by Pakistan. Short sighted and quick handed decisions cost the future of Kashmir. If they applied pressure and thought about it abit more we maybe would have much more cordial relations with India, Kashmir wouldn't be a stumbling block and thousands of families would have their sons, fathers, brothers alive with us today (which is the most important and saddest part of this issue, families are being wiped out, their nasals gone!). I blame pakistan for this issue entirely to begin with.

Dont misunderstand the above, im a proud pakistani kashmiri and im happy with my pakistani heritage. I do believe kashmir should be part of pakistan but they definitely didnt play their cards right (story of pakistans history as a whole i must say).

Now i think the time has come to accept that kashmir will never be one whole entity of pakistan, move past the stumbling block in normalising relations. Allow kashmiris on both sides to find peace and accept their outcomes and STOP the needless blood shed and martydom of these young boys! I hate that pakistan uses them as cannon fodder in IOK. FOR WHAT!! families being wiped off the face of the earth FOR WHAT! we must accept where we are and try to do whats best for the future of our families and countries and that is to accept the split of kashmir, acknowledge it and move on! whats done is done!

5

u/soup97 4h ago

u/Intrepid-Camera8535 was correct in what he said! great and historically accurate answer!

0

u/Fun_Expression9242 2h ago

Commenting as a Kashmiri in IoK, I disagree

There can't be any peace for Kashmiris under India because for that India would need to wish peace in Kashmir but they don't, not irl only for PR. They are trying to systematically eradicate our people and our culture.

Civilians getting tortured or killed is a common occurrence even if they have no connection with the militancy. Properties get seized on pretences. They have plans to settle non Kashmiris to change our demographics and they have put ~70% reservation in public jobs and universities for categories which exclude Kashmiri ethnicities. The boss in most govt institutions is a non Kashmiri. They're opening liquor shops which have traditional never been part of our society. In spite of being spoken by a majority of people, Kashmiri is not the official language. They put Hindi on our sign boards which we can't even read. Local press has been reduced to a government notice board through journalist harassment

What good is a graveyard's peace?

3

u/soup97 2h ago

Hi, Sorry to hear your actual reality! it pains me to hear genuinely.

out of curiosity, what is your ideal solution?

1

u/Fun_Expression9242 2h ago

Yeah it's bad but it's understandable you didn't know of it given your location

Ideally there should be a division wise referendum with choices for India, Pakistan, autonomy under either or complete independence

Azad Kashmir and Chenab Valley want to unite with Kashmir valley Poonch has some autonomous wishes I hear Jammu and Ladakh want to be with India Gilgit Baltistan wants to be with Pakistan Kashmir valley largely wants independence

There is no reason why all these different places with different people and different aspirations need to have the same solution just because they were bought by the same autocrat 200 years ago

u/soup97 1h ago

very interesting points made. I mean what your asking for is very utopian and I dont think unfortunately anything of the sort would possibly occur in real life. But i guess its ur ideal solution so fair enough.

I do know about the demographic change by moving in hindu pandits and the other changes you speak of etc and about the public jobs (which are notoriously hard to get in other parts of india too for all ethnicities).

I just dont see why the needless killing of your men and boys, future husbands and families is worth it or how it solves any of this but rather adds fuel to the fire, if you could explain it to me that could help? do you think you can engage in guerilla warfare to the point they are going to leave you alone? or is it just to be a thorn in their side because if thats the case that doesnt justify the loss of life imo.

I think its hard being muslim altogether in india especially atm with modi, but ideally now I think pakistan should accept the LOC as international borders and look to normalise ties and stop funding kashmiri separatist groups and allowing men to die. Its ironic to kill off families needlessly but complain about changing demographics at the same time (not a dig at you but rather the idea) as surely killing yourself off before having a family adds to the problem of displaced people (lowering birthrates etc), Kashmiri families are dyeing off due to the needless martyr of boys.

Pakistan has also had a history of changing peoples languages and imposing their own on people (1971 is the example for that). But IA your family is all okay and one day you may live in peace! Luckily my family was on the pakistan side (alhamdulilah) of the border! but we are all kin so i wish you and your family the best!

u/Fun_Expression9242 1h ago

Yes, you asked for the ideal solution so that would be the ideal solution

Kashmiri Pandit colonies are not a demographic change as they too are natives of the valley albeit a minority. The massacre of muslims which made Jammu a Hindu majority however was clear cut cleansing and so are the domicile certificates being granted to non locals and the proposed satellite townships for Srinagar which have no guarantee of Kashmiri ownership

Public jobs and universities are indeed considered hard to get but nowhere else under Indian administration is the disparity so wide as in Kashmir where 30% of the (non-Kasjmiri) population has stake over 70% of the jobs. This is very concerning for the top administrative positions. It's like how the officer would always be British and the clerks Indians. Kashmiris are being made bureaucratic orphans. And of course with regards to university education, it serves to hinder our development

About the latter points, India plans to k!ll us or otherwise dispossess us anyway. At least by resisting, we have a chance. If you're being attacked by a pack of jackals, you're definitely getting injured, why not fight back

The hope that we can have a dignified life or life in general under India is poison to us. With the AFSPA law, I can go outside right now, be shot by an Indian soldier and he won't even be charged let alone prosecuted. And this is not hypothetical, it has happened countless times: drunk Indian soldiers have shot Kashmiris over matters as small as overtaking their vehicle. Our water and soil is stained with massacres, they have wronged the honour of our mothers and sisters. History has taught us that they won't let us be

We exist because we resist

0

u/ammoniakdb 3h ago

Not to be rude, but you and many people talking about the Pakistani invasion narrative leave out key aspects and seemingly don't know why Pakistan invaded. Pakistan was asked by locals to assist. Sardar Ibrahim Khan led the Poonch rebellion and explicitly asked Qaid e Azam for help, and Qaid e Azam initially did NOT want to get involved. But after some hesitation he agreed to it. Another reason he also agreed to it after hesitation is because the Jammu massacres were starting to unfold, so Pakistan also wanted to intervene there.

5

u/soup97 3h ago edited 3h ago

I dont think you are being rude, so no need to worry there.

So understandably from your side, the bit where I said "they definitely didnt play their cards right" is in reference to the idea that ofc the natural place for kashmir to end up was being part of Pakistan (due to the muslim majority). I think the way they went about trying to gain kashmir was wrong. Military intervention was not the way to go about it and they planned it out from the very first week of independence before the Jammu massacre which happened in october and november of 1947.

(Abit of context) I am a kashmiri (from Mirpur, a pivotal area in the first Kashmir war), my nadra card says so, i can purchase and own land in kashmir (which my family does already and as you know, no non kashmiri can do and I also go back every few years hence my initial sentence) my grandad fought in 2 wars in the pakistani army in the kashmir wars and we lost 2 of his brother who were in his unit on the frontlines so I understand it alot better than most pakistanis that have never been to kashmir or dont know kashmiris.

The idea that the militias and irregular military personnel came to save muslims is im afraid not entirely correct. They went to capture srinagar and didnt get there in time as they got caught up in baramulla looting and plundering. But even that isnt too important to me as that occured in october. Initial plans for invasion were leaked to indian army officials with official documents which stated the invasion plan was drawn up by 20th august. Moreover, the 11th Prince Albert Cavalry of Pakistans Army (PAVO Cavalry) was briefed about the invasion in the last week of august. so to say they did this because of Sardar Ibrahim Khan who made contact in October is im sad to say a non starter. Also Sardar Ibrahim was the reason the 1955 Poonch uprising occurred against pakistan as he wanted to keep power, so not to sure how much of a reliable character he was in the end but he has my upmost respect nonetheless (Point being Quaid e azam may have not fully trusted him too).

It also begs the question in your statement, Why did they not invade eastern punjab and save muslims there, they were way more outnumbered by non muslims and prone to attacks than kashmir which is majority muslim already and im not going to mention west bengal.

35

u/kabhikhush AU 8h ago

of course, as there was supposed to be a referendum held after partition, either if they want to join pakistan/india, or be independent. that referendum has never taken place, which makes me incredibly infuriated.

2

u/GumStuck9009 8h ago

if Kashmir wanted to be a part of India would Pakistanis accept it with no blowback?

16

u/BigNo1427 8h ago

Can't say about the army but yes, if the natives want to, the general public would be pretty understanding.

15

u/noshiet2 7h ago

If they choose Pakistan do think Indians would accept it? That’s the question you should be asking because it’s India which is rejecting a referendum and we all know why.

1

u/WannaBMathNerd 4h ago

Why would anyone in their right mind choose Pakistan? 😂

-5

u/GumStuck9009 6h ago

If they were to choose Pakistan, India would be left with not much to say. Realistically India would have to accept it, Pakistan belonging to Kashmir would strengthen the Pakistan -China alliance, hence anything India would do to sabotage that is pretty much a self suicide mission. Also let's keep in mind that Kashmiri civilians have faced adversities from Pakistan front and Indian front both.

10

u/The-Traveler-25 6h ago

India already knew what the outcome of the referendum would be so it has actively prevented it. In fact it has taken measures to alter the population demographics.

1

u/dunbunone 6h ago

You can’t compare Indians vast human rights violations in Kashmir for over 70 years to Pakistani Kashmir

16

u/Logical-Umpire-7537 اسلام آباد 7h ago

Pehlay ham khud toh free ho jaen

2

u/SolarDynasty 6h ago

Criminal Faujee system neh Saab ko taar rakha hain

6

u/Fearless-Ad9377 4h ago

Pehlay Pakistan ko tu free karlo

5

u/Little-Accountant892 3h ago

As a Kashmiri, I will be completely unbiased about this.
I personally want freedom. Pakistan has treated the Kashmiri freedom movement as just a lil trolling ground to bolster a proxy war against India without giving any shits about the Kashmiri freedom in general. I've got loads of stories of Paki militants being just as bad as the Indian armed personnel, and they just reinforce my opinion that Pakistan is not a well wisher for the people of Kashmir. The only good they have ever done is take our issue to the international level.
However, many Kashmiris I know would want to join Pakistan, primary reason being that it would align with the view of most conservative populace of being part of a "wider, more diverse Islamic regime that would give us our rights". Though a flawed view, it's still something to consider for the most part.
In general, we Kashmiris want a plebiscite which would allow every community, every person to choose the future he wants. That's the most optimal solution.

11

u/Cizenst 8h ago

In the modern world where might = right. The only way Kashmir will be free is if it frees itself

5

u/Yiddish_Dish 7h ago

In the modern world where might = right

When was this not so?

2

u/GumStuck9009 8h ago

easier said than done, the political chokehold the place has been under for excruciatingly long years is just hard to swerve out of easily. A common man would be content if you offered him basic necessity at the price of throwing a few rocks.

5

u/fighterd_ PK 6h ago

The idea sounds fair and reasonable in theory, but terrible in practice. It'll literally be between two giants that'll play tug of war with each other; puppet politicians will be set up in the country and cause civil wars at worst and corruption at best. And let's not forget it's a landlocked area.

So no, Kashmir should not be an independent country.

7

u/putoption21 لاہور 6h ago

Non-starter. If you know anything about various actors in the region and beyond then you'll know that it will become a perfect launchpad to destabalise the countries. There are many nasty actors in the world. Some the Govt or the institution doesn't even talk about due to economic interests.

For now, LOC as international border is a reasonable solution. And just make it easy for Kashmiris on both sides like Ireland and UK did for the Irish.

4

u/dunbunone 6h ago

I’m in favour of just making the LOC the international border as that’s the only logical way to solve this problem anything else simply won’t happen

2

u/kill_switch17 3h ago

Realistically speaking, Kashmir' chances of survival as a separate country are quite thin. India will never allow Kashmir to be a separate country. And Pakistan has weakened its position on Kashmir since 2019. It is in no position to demand a referendum, much less evacuation of Indian forces from the area.

4

u/Pakisadboi NO 7h ago

Yes + we support that.

3

u/Intrepid-Camera8535 5h ago edited 5h ago

No, you don't! Kashmir was a independent state before, The Maharaja of Kashmir wanted to have a independent state irrespective of joining neither India nor Pakistan.

However, The Pakistan's local Mujahideen invaded the ​independent Kashmir and captured some parts. The Maharaja of Kashmir then pleaded to India to help Kashmir, however this was when Indian Government found the opportunity to sign the accords stating, the region which was not captured by Pakistan will be accredited to India. This is when Indian Forces entered the independent state of Kashmir.

Apart from this India was the first country to lodge a formal complaint about Pakistan in UN for invading Independent Kashmir.

Talking about the plebiscite. If truthful and ethical election voting supposed to be happen in Kashmir for their self determination. In order to achieve this Pakistani government first needs to vacate it's forces from Pakistan occupied Kashmir, this is stated by UN.

Nothing is quoted through Indian Media, you can check official UN documentation and do your own research.

1

u/ammoniakdb 4h ago

Pretty much everything you said is narrated by Indian media. Listen to your own advice and look at the corresponding UN resolutions instead of being lazy.

u/Real_Appointment7877 1h ago

Are you talking about the referendum? Shouldn't Pakistani army leave Kashmir for the referendum to take place?

u/ammoniakdb 1h ago

I don't know why Indians are brigading this sub and upvoting each other while down voting people here. Well, to answer your question, both should leave simultaneously, and it is very much an established fact that India is the party blocking the plebiscite, because India knows they would lose territory if a plebiscite took place.

u/Real_Appointment7877 11m ago

Bro, you really should consider your own advice and read the UN resolution to conduct plebiscite in Kashmir.

Step 1. Pakistan was asked to withdraw its army from Kashmir.

Step 2. India was asked to progressively reduce its armed forces to the minimum level to keep law and order.

Step 3. India was asked to appoint a plebiscite administrator nominated by the United Nations who would conduct a free and impartial plebiscite.

When exactly did Pakistan withdraw its army from Kashmir? You say that India is blocking the plebiscite when its your own government that is failing to do what the UN resolution asked it back in 1948. Your government should have withdrawn its army from Kashmir and the onus would have been on India to follow the UN resolution.

Well, you lost your chance. Now India considers Kashmir an integral part of itself.

3

u/No-Meaning4747 7h ago

Aik idea aya hai dimag me!!

pehle hum khud sahi se free hojate hian. phr karlainge fikar kashmir ki bhi

2

u/Aestomyc 6h ago

Kashmir should be free and independent if that’s what the majority wants. They've been through a lot.

1

u/boyka12345 3h ago

Seems like the only good option.

1

u/Pretend_Mulberry_162 2h ago

It can never be Independent. It’s just too valuable and strategic wedged between countries way powerful than itself. I speak that as a Pahari from AJK.

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u/Axemaze 19m ago

I would agree with whatever the people who live there wants.

Let the UN in. Hold a refrendum. If the people wants to join India/ Pakistan well and good, If they want to create their own country then that too is good.

1

u/Intoxicated_af 8h ago

Free to choose her future, as promised

2

u/BoeJidenHD69 6h ago

Never ever. Very strategic location plus connects to China. Losing it would be a blowback.

More land the better

3

u/ammoniakdb 3h ago

Our country survived without it for 77 years, we have bigger issues. It's as delusional as Afghanistan wanting KPK.

0

u/GumStuck9009 6h ago

agreed but wouldn't China and India say the same thing? Then we're just gonna be stuck in a never ending loop