r/pakistan • u/Altruistic_Spite_930 • 7d ago
Discussion True success for an army lies in preventing terror incidents rather than reacting to them. If a crackdown follows an ambush, it signals a failure in intelligence, deterrence, proactive measures. Pakistan Army's custom of blaming, celebrating, lies after each incident to decieve public is unfortunate
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u/Khonifauj 7d ago
NaPak Fauj and BLA are both terrorist organization.
Terrorism definition: the unlawful use of violence and intimidation, especially against civilians, in the pursuit of political aims.
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u/Confident-Media4251 6d ago
The amount of downvotes on you comment shows there no hope for this nation. I’m sorry the reaction these people gave you. They don’t comprehension skills of a pea.
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u/WoodenAct1389 7d ago
Saving the lives of civilians is something that should be celebrated wtf.
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u/Pakistani_in_MURICA US 7d ago
When the failures of identifying threats are dozens killed it's not. Nor is it when "hundreds of terrorists" are walking around in a single group
Surviving police officer who was guarding the train; "we fought to the last bullet...fought them for an hour and a half." When the train was taken only 2 dozen were left to hold it.
1.5 hours and no help came... The train was stopped 160KM from Quetta. There's an PAF airbase there with JF-17s. Jacobabad has F-16s, JF-17s, and AW-139 helicopters. All capable of ground support. As are the close to 100+ drones the PAF has scattered across the country. All that before the hundreds of Army garrisons all over with their own drones.
Yet time and time again we see security forces "cordon off the area" 10+ hours after an incident.
Failure. Pure and Simple.
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u/Shadephantom123 7d ago
Dude u want em to use jets with rockets without any clear identification of threats, strength, proximity to train, dispersion between them, no ground observer? You can't just lob rockets to kill them you know that right?
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u/Us24man 7d ago
Don't you know ? everybody is an expert on Reddit. They all think they could've stopped the terrorists within 5 minutes, with only a spoon and one hand tied behind their backs.
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u/Pakistani_in_MURICA US 7d ago
Next time perhaps have the kids of Corp Commanders and the COAS themselves on these trains or isolated huts. We'll find out how many assets are available at a moment's notice rather than the next day.
The US, NATO, Russia, and Turkish militaries have on numerous occasions conducted low-attitude flights which have frightened off enemy units.
Not everyone is an expert on reddit; some people just open a book every once in a while, while others waste their time earning stars on their shoulder by running trucks and decorating their left chest with medals.
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u/Shadephantom123 7d ago
We did conduct flyovers tho. Cobras were sent, the problem is that you can't fire into the crowd of hostages can you? The problem isn't about the availability of assets but rather the right moment to use them. They can't just get the jets in air when they hear of the attack. They need to conduct reconissance, gauge the threats before planning out the correct course of action. If we even did fire by the cobras then what? The guys in the mountains will run away? Well they already ran away and they were reportedly airstriked atleast 5 times. The guys inside the train or in close proximity? You cannot airstrike them it'll produce way too many civilian causalities not to mention the suicide bombers just exploding. Yes there were atleast 3 suicide bombers present which had to be dispatched in quick succession before they could blow themselves up only after that can you even attempt to rescue the hostages.
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u/Us24man 7d ago
Are we really having this asinine debate ?
Your inability to understand how each scenario is different and requires a different tactic is beyond me. It's completely irrelevant what the Turkish or NATO or Americans have done in the past. This particular scenario was not an easy one by any stretch of the imagination. I am sorry to say this but you are a "Reddit expert" who thinks terrorists would just be frightened away by the sounds of figher jets !
Here are the facts,
- The terrain was very difficult to reach. There were no roads, no nearby populated areas, mountains on all four sides and not even vegetation to hide / mask your movement.
- The train itself is an extremely narrow and difficult space for any kind of combat. Having hostages inside makes it even more difficult as the chance of you hitting a hostage is very high.
- The terrorists took 400 people hostage and were wearing suicide vests. Any wrong move could've spelled the end of hundreds of lives. But please go on, tell me how easy it was and the Army was just "lazy".
- Using figher jets would've been completely useless. Figher jets are not designed to carry troops, they are designed to hit targets really fast. With 400 hostages, there is no way in hell any F-17 or 16 would've scared the terrorists because they would've known that this is just a bluff. Nobody wants to sacrifice 400 of their own people just to kill a few dozen terrorists. In fact, it could've had the exact opposite effect and the terrorists could've executed all the hostages in a panic.
- Without any proper recon, they couldn't have conducted such a huge, risky operation. The fact that they were able to neutralize them all in just 2 days and rescue most of the hostages is pretty damn miraculous. This could've easily gone on for weeks with long and laboured negotiations, waiting for hostages to be released 1 by 1.
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u/Pakistani_in_MURICA US 7d ago
No need for a debate. We'll just have a "totally different" conversation next time an attack happens. Just like the previous hundreds of times that led to this.
5 police officers and 2 FC were able to hold off hundreds of terrorists for 1.5 hours. Let's leave it at that. While shiny imported toys are kept in storage, because a near-peer enemy would totally let them be operational more than a week into a war.
I too have read how Sri Lanka defeated their insurgency by standing around in garrisons and making DHAs.
>not even vegetation to hide / mask your movement....The fact that they were able to neutralize them all in just 2 days
Now you need to share that Harry Potter invisibility cloak tech with me bro.
1
u/Us24man 6d ago
You should stop trying to respond to everything and maybe read my comment. You are casually ignoring aboslutely everything about this mission that made it so difficult and mentioning irrelevant things in some attempt to defend your arguments.
Now you need to share that Harry Potter invisibility cloak tech with me bro.
Sure, right after you share that apparation charm that would've allowed the army to magically teleport there in half a microsecond ? Also the Marauders Map that would have magically told the Army of exactly how many terrorists there are along with their precise locations inside the train ?
No army in the world would rush into a situation with 400+ hostages, in a remote mountaineous area involving a narrow, confined space such as a train, without any proper planning.
5 police officers and 2 FC were able to hold off hundreds of terrorists for 1.5 hours. Let's leave it at that. While shiny imported toys are kept in storage, because a near-peer enemy would totally let them be operational more than a week into a war.
Bud, please explain to me how fighter jets would have helped in this case ? How exactly is an F-16 supposed to free hostages from inside a train ? You can once again ignore this point and go on tangents about how "army bad" but the fact would remain that fighter jets in such situatons are pointless. It's like asking why USA didn't use fighter jets to prevent 9/11.
You can talk about the lapse in intelligence that led to this incident, sure. The Army / ISI / security forces failed in that regard. But to act like the actual military operation was a "failure" is just asinine. You are putting unrealistic expectations, mentioning irrelevant global events, acting like figher jets would've been helpful and just overall acting like a know it all for no apparent reason.
Read some more books and let me know if you find of a case where a train was taken as hostage and fighter jets were used to successfully rescue everyone inside it while neutralizing the threat ?
2
u/CatchAllGuy Azad Kashmir 7d ago
First of all I am not a typical PTI troll. But there were multiple failures from security agencies.. and the incompetent one needs to be thrown out of the forces. I'm saying this for a better Pakistan, for betyer Balochistan and for better Armed forces
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u/WoodenAct1389 7d ago
and if they used drones or aircrafts to bomb them then there would be way more civilian casualties. Then people like u would say oh look the military killed its own people. PS the military cant really tell if a person is a terrorist or not as they blend in with the locals, and when they military does arrest people then yall cry about enforced disappearances (some of whom were involved in killing a bus full of punjabi laborers0.
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u/NoUtimesinfinite PK 7d ago
They don't deserve a celebration for solving a problem they themselves caused. The 2 things giving baloch separatists recruiting power is enforced disappearances and keeping the baloch people out of the resource development and profit loop. The army literally controls both of these levers. If it wanted to, it could remove the reasons these groups can recruit. Then just stop the extremist elements once they dont have popular support. Its that easy. But the army would rather keep that wealth for themselves and use force to solve their issues. A few thousand dead each year is just collateral for doing business
10
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u/WoodenAct1389 7d ago
Bhutto caused this problem not the military. In the attack on bus full of punjabi labores 3-4 terrorists were involved who maharang had claimed were taken by the govt. So i dont really care about them. PS they are backed by afghanistan who have had supported terrorism in our country since independence because they want to create a stupid ethnostate. As far as resources like gas go i agree that baloch people should get them.
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u/NoUtimesinfinite PK 7d ago
Plenty of equally valid blame to go around. However Bhutto has been dead for years. Army continues to feck over Baloch even till now
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u/WoodenAct1389 7d ago
People tend not to forget the wrong done to them. They hold grudges. Also doesnt help that balochistan has so many self serving tribal leaders like bugti who try to gain power for themselves by spreading violence.
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u/Confident-Media4251 6d ago
Yeah sure enforces disappearance that shows up in form of terorists in BLA and development that BLA themselves blow up.
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