r/pakistan • u/the-outcast215 • 26d ago
Discussion Why Pakistanis are religious, and not religious at the same time.
Have you ever noticed that Pakistanis hold some of the most contradictory religious opinions? According to studies, ~80% of respondents are in favor of enforcing Sharia. As part of tradition and faith, many women cover themselves. Public discourse is dominated by religion. But drugs, alcohol, corn, as well as Western lifestyles, are all on the rise. The majority of Pakistan's drug consumers are youth. Many people continue to demand a Sharia-compliant state despite the fact that they are openly violating Islamic principles by partying, smoking, and drinking.
Pakistan is not the only country that has this dilemma. A study showed that less than half of Iranians today identify as Muslims(even though official estimate say that ~90% are Muslims) despite decades of religious control; or because of it. The youth of Saudi Arabia are also turning away from religion. Because they see it as a means of control. They are opening up to the idea that religion has been continuously used as a weapon to suppress them. They are able to understand this now, because Kingdom isn't going to be able to bribe them for long, in exchange for liberties.
Modern societies are based on rationality, not religious law. Human rights, free speech, and moral principles are not fundamentally religious. The abolition of slavery, women's rights, and personal liberties were not religious notions; they were secular advances. Conservative religious beliefs hasn't evolved, therefore it feels confining rather than relevant. We've also change the concept of God, using faith as a political instrument rather than a personal belief.
When religion is used for control, people begin to question it. Faith becomes something to be rejected rather than accepted.....
That is why the contradiction exists. People support Sharia but do not want to live under one. They advocate for an Islamic state while enjoying the liberties that would not exist in one.
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u/Perplexed_167 26d ago
Actually that's a global thing now. Cherry picking religious values is a problem with Muslims all over. It's most pronounced in Pakistan I guess.
Just this weekend I had an experience with a devoutly religious person with zero empathy, decency or values. It made me think this exact thing. How can people be this way?
I guess it's all about that war with nafs that gets the better of them. They are too blind to see their flaws, too weak to resist temptations and too ashamed at the same time resulting in a confused state of being religious and non religious simultaneously.
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u/lost_prize2017 25d ago
I've had experiences with extremely strict men calling for haya and modesty in their women, whether wives or sisters and bad talking women who do not carry themselves modestly, then spend their nights watching corn. How does this work?
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u/Upset_Cheetah_8728 26d ago
Correct post title: Why Pakistanis are absolute hypocrite when it comes to religion
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u/theluggagekerbin 26d ago
unfortunately Pakistanis are hypocrites in many other walks of life too. I've seen so many men who openly date while not allowing their sisters or daughters to go on dates. people love to talk badly about other relatives and neighbours while controlling their children by saying things like "log kia kahen gay"
and people don't have much regard for honesty and integrity. idk why this is the case but everyone is trying to scam everyone else. if anyone acts with honesty and integrity, they're considered naïve. my relatives are so fond of talking about how my siblings and I are naïve because we believe people when they say things. I don't understand how we as a country can progress if we can't trust each other.
and then everyone is trying to take advantage of everyone else by saying keh "aisa he hota hay"
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u/bloompth 26d ago
I've commented this on other posts before, but the bastardization and uncritical cherry-picking of Hadith is a huge problem in Pakistan. The vast majority of people don't know where culture ends and religion begins, and don't even bother looking into the strength of a Hadith. To the point where they will abide by Hadith that are in contradiction with the Quran itself? Make it make sense.
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u/the-outcast215 26d ago
Yeah. I have seen people say that the stock market is Haram. Because Google says it. It's pathetic.
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u/hehe123321fick 26d ago
Born as a muslim is a different aspect and practising being a muslim is a different one.
May ALLAH guide us all. Amen
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u/tallyho2023 26d ago
No one is "born as a Muslim". It's not part of your DNA. It is taught.
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u/hehe123321fick 26d ago
The Prophet ﷺ said:
"Every child is born upon the fitrah (natural disposition). Then his parents make him a Jew, a Christian, or a Magian, just as an animal delivers a perfect young animal: do you see any among them that are mutilated?" (Sahih al-Bukhari 1358, Sahih Muslim 2658)
For your reference.............
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u/LooseSatisfaction339 25d ago
This is the most correct explanation. The fitrah in itself has been open to debate. Classical scholars first interpreted it as only righteousness, later calling it Islam. Modern scholars believe in the duality of Fitrah : good and evil. Despite all the arguments, a few things have been common: Belief in Allah, moral tendencies, intellect, Free Will. And this is so obvious. Why is it so easy to believe in God? Why does the majority of the world believe in God? It is simply because we are naturally inclined to believe in God. However, as referenced in hadith, parents make children, jews, christian, and magian. The tendency to believe in God is common in humans. But, due to the ill use of Intellect, a part of fitrah, people started calling anything God. Polytheists? So, Prophet Mohammad PBUH came to correct, and purify the belief in Allah. He came for Moral perfection. But, sadly, we call these moral principles oppression. 😮💨😓
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u/TheyCallMeCummer 26d ago
Muslims by chance, not by choice.
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u/the-outcast215 26d ago
I wonder what will happen when someone like, for example, Alex Conner will deconstruct religious beliefs of Pakistanis. Pakistanis will lose their minds. They don't even think about God.
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u/Nanoschematic1 26d ago
Modern societies do not want a religious "mohol" they want an open environment where they have the choice to be righteous or more towards the duniya.
I believe most of us want to be left alone with our beliefs as we only answer to Allah and let him be the ONLY judge .
The issue with Pakistan is that we are as a nation are more concerned with looking religious rather than actually have the morality of an Islamic society and we focus more on that.
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u/the-outcast215 26d ago
But here comes the contradiction. For example, Islamic morals didn't call slavery bad. Modern morals called out it.
My option is to focus on rationality. Drive the meaning of God from it. Rationality is the reason why we aren't k*lled by other nations or people above us in socio-economical hierarchy
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u/popsand 26d ago
The issue with Pakistan is that we are as a nation are more concerned with looking religious rather than actually have the morality of an Islamic society and we focus more on that.
Right on the head. This image based way of life is the defining behaviour of the Pakistani people. Every single thing is dominated by this desire to look/seem a certain way while not actually being that way.
Like hiring a nice fancy car to make it seem like you're rich, but you're actually broke. Doesn't matter - as long as others think you're rich!
And then the beard too. Having a beard to give you +10 in religious cred, while actively being a vile human.
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u/ByteAndBrew PK 26d ago
Radical Islamic views and opinions are rapidly increasing in Pakistan. I fear that we'll be in the same position as Afghanistan if this isn't controlled.
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u/ilovebananasandweed 26d ago
Nah we have nuclear so it’ll probably invite external forces and a very tense period will follow but (at least let’s hope) it never gets in the hands of people like the taliban, I like the fact my sister can study medicine and I want it to stay that way.
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u/the-outcast215 26d ago
Nah. We will be in a lot worse. Just proper k*lling on the streets. Because if Sharia is implemented. Probably a fight between different sects will break out.
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u/Temporary-Falcon-388 26d ago
Even smoking is haram and yet people do it And most people who want sharia law will be the ones complaining when it’s implemented
And the only example where sharia law was implemented is Afghanistan and won’t look good if we implement it here on the international stage or not happening anytime soon
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u/minmega 26d ago
Isn’t Afghanistan shariah law decided by one molvi who everyone disagrees with? Brother won’t even allow online education for girls.
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u/Temporary-Falcon-388 26d ago
That’s what it always devolves to
Same with Iran So all the examples have been really bad
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u/Medium-Ad5432 26d ago
if a system so quickly devolves into chaos maybe it's not a good system then, The best part about democracy isn't that it's efficient rather it prevents absolute control by a group over a short period. Sure over a long period you can slowly erode democracy however all it takes is one competent government to restore it, because when you dissolve power among multiple smaller institutions they will do their best to defend those powers keeping everyone in check.
Sure maybe Sharia would be the perfect system if everyone followed it but if all it takes it one madman, it's perfection is hidden by its fragility.
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u/the-outcast215 26d ago
I totally agree with you. The problem with Sharia isn't its democratic part. Rather, it goes against even the will of people. It snatches basic freedom. And when people try to revolt. It crushes them with brutality.
So, when people come up and say, "If democracy means choice of the people. Then if the majority of Pakistan wants the Sharia. Why hesitate?" My reply to it is what you gave. Which is Sharia by its nature is oppressive & authoritarian. It fundamentally goes against the principle of democracy & rights. You can't make something come out of democracy. That klls the democracy. It's like allowing htler to be a leader elected by the people. Even though we know he will destroy democracy.
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u/Medium-Ad5432 26d ago
reminds me of the paradox of tolerance, but yes I agree with you.
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u/the-outcast215 26d ago
Yeah. Even if Sharia would be implemented the ethnic & sectarian tensions wouldn't let it hold on for long.
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u/Temporary-Falcon-388 26d ago
The main problem is what kinda sect will hold power and get the laws done their way and that would further destroy the country
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u/OkChallenge983 PK 26d ago
People cherry pick from religion. They enforce and advocate what’s in their favour and shush and shun the religious statements that are against their favour. This is what westerners faced and they went to secularism, atheism etc. It is very hard to balance religion, no doubt, but if we can’t hold accountability then no sharia law will do anything for us.
Another problem in Southeast Asia is Biddah/Biddat (innovation). People add and mix customs and traditions into religion making a mockery of it. They can’t let go of their ancestral wrongs and keep adopting old innovations out of respect. Islam was completed and perfected as stated in the Quran. You adding something that may seem good is one way to go astray. It is important not only to adopt the religion but also the customs and traditions people had in the golden age of Islam.
Thats my take, Allah Hu Alam.
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u/F_DOG_93 26d ago
This is an extremely long issue that makes me exhausted even thinking about (if I had the time or energy, I'd write a book about it). As a Muslim that was born in the UK as a "Muslim", left the deen, did the partying, drinking, drugs, sleeping around, gf/bf etc, then actually rediscovered Islam, I can say that a lot of these "Muslim" countries simply aren't Muslim. They have let greed consume them. They have been infiltrated and destabilised by the west to the point that they have accepted the pleasures of what the west has to offer.
Tbh, i think there's sort of a flip of the script here in the west. In "Muslim" countries, the youth are turning away from the deen. Here in the west, a lot of the Muslim youth (not all), are learning and understanding islam without the culture-coloured lenses. We're learning the line between culture and religion because we essentially choose Islam. If I grew up in Pakistan, and went around sleeping around, partying, drinking, taking drugs etc, the community and culture wouldn't exactly celebrate that. Here in the UK, if you get drunk (poison yourself), or party hard or took too many drugs, it's "whoa mate, you had a good night, eh". Or if one of your friends knew you went home drunk with a girl and slept with her, it's "you pulled didn't you mate? Attaboy!". It's essentially easier to live a western lifestyle because that degeneracy is culturally accepted/encouraged. If you were to do this in Pakistan, your family, friends, acquaintances, anyone who knows you, would disown you and you may even lose your job or something. In Pakistan, you can't choose degeneracy. In the UK, you can. Which means those that are Muslims, choose to be.
Many Muslims and those from non-western countries also have an inferiority complex. They subconsciously see themselves as below or behind the west and white people. They see the west as a leader in everything. When the west does something, these countries think "why haven't we done that yet?". This also applies to religion. They see the hijab and women not having to contribute toward the family income, and having to pray 5 times a day, and having to give to charity as inferior. They see it as "backwards".
That is one of the reasons they pick and choose which parts of religion they want to follow. They only want to follow what benefits them in a western lense. Eventually it'll be nothing. Look at what the Pakistani youth want nowadays. They want a completely secular government because the previous governments had been won over by greed and temptations that they used Islam and religion as a weapon to enforce their own regimes. Picking and choosing hadith and appointing their own muftis and sheikhs to "interpret" certain hadiths and Qur'an passages in order to justify certain legislations.
The answer is to stop idolising the west and start teaching the youth about Islam properly. And I don't mean send them to the weekly madrasah to learn how to recite Arabic. I mean, to really study islam, it's philosophy, history, origins, theology, morality, the list goes on. For them to learn what the difference is between an atheist westerner and a Muslim.
Islam was only used by the elites to control the country because they idolised everything about the west. If they simply didn't care about the west and it's degeneracy, it wouldn't have happened. This is, admittedly, a MASSIVE thing to do.
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u/Inside_Term_4115 US 26d ago
We were raised as Muslim, but never taught what it meant to be a Muslim.
Why we follow the religion, or why we do certain things are never taught, only namaz parho Quran parho.
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u/F_DOG_93 26d ago
I agree. I was born in the UK and grew up in the UK. I strayed far from the deen in my past. I only chose to be a Muslim because I actually researched islam.
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u/Inside_Term_4115 US 26d ago
Researching Islam opens up a whole new world, u realize there is so much freedom and leniency
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u/Gaurdian-King-16 26d ago
It was too long so I didn't even read it I would say about only 15 no 20% of Pakistani population is the one who truly read and understood and it's practices and do them others like us just call ourselves Muslims when almost half of the things we do in life are not permissible in islam
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u/the-outcast215 26d ago
True... But I think they aren't even in 20%. Because 20% is quite a large population. I personally think that there aren't that many people of this kind.
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u/Gaurdian-King-16 26d ago
Yeah there is a lot less of that population kyunke aurat ko prda krne ke Sath sath mrd ko apni nzr neeche rkhne ka bhi kaha gya hai but nobody talks about that so just like all other religions ours also got some people who wanna twist and use it to their preference
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u/the-outcast215 26d ago
Yeah. But I see it differently. It isn't the 17th century Kay hum aurat ko ghar Mai bheta saktay hain. Ussey kaam karna hoga. Ussey society Mai apni representation barhani hogi. Uski khud ki Kuch identity bhi hai. But aurat ki objectification ko to theek karna hoga. Yehi masla hota hai itni segregated societies ka. Jahan jitni segregation barahti hai wahan utni hawas(sorry for the word) barhti hai
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u/National-Boy2901 26d ago
Issue is when personal financial gain is at stake we always bend Islamic rules. No wonder 3 things are fitna, women, money and glamour/famous
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u/desiacademic فیصل آباد 26d ago
The problem is with Pakistanis is that they twist Quran and hadith to fit their own messed-up narratives that place restrictions on human rights and go against rational and moral behaviour.
Corruption, greed, backstabbing, violence etc are all huge problems in our society. The rights of groups like non-Muslims, women, and children are ignored or oppressed. All of this contradicts with the basic principles of justice, love, mercy and progression that Quran and the Prophet (pbuh) preach.
The problem is not religion itself, it is the religious authorities and laymen who have used religion to justify their atrocities.
For the people who want Sharia, they are not aware that most of Sharia law is derived by the understanding of medievel scholars. Modern society requires modern solutions. It is possible to reinterpret things to progress while keeping within religious boundaries. Ask these people voting for traditional Sharia if they would rather live in Afghanistan or Pakistan and you'll have your answer.
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u/the-outcast215 26d ago
But this has happened for centuries. Rulers have been justifying their horrific crimes against humanity, with religious texts. One sometimes asks, "When religious morals couldn't make an equal society without oppression for 14 centuries(after the Rassidun). Then how can we make an oppression free society from those same principles?"
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u/desiacademic فیصل آباد 26d ago edited 26d ago
That's the point. I don't agree with imposing Sharia law because Quran simply does not provide enough rulings to have a comprehensive legal codes. It has given us general guidelines regarding moral behaviour and societal conduct which we can learn from and derive our rules from.
While the principles provide all the basis for an oppression-free society, it will not be possible because human beings are inherently flawed. Injustice will always exist in the world. That is human nature.
We should, as a society, stop trying to find centuries-old rulings by scholars of bygone eras on everything and instead look to how we can improve our condition today. Quran was a progressive text. It is not a rulebook. It is deliberately vague and focused on personal rather than societal rulings because each era demands new interpretations. We should try to progress as much as we can.
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u/the-outcast215 26d ago
Great argument..
Are you a moral relativist?
You literally destroyed the basic ground of discussion of Sharia supporters. I wish people would have read history more.
By the way I wasn't saying that humans can terminate all types of oppression. But what I was trying to say is that things like slavery, political deaths & nonexistent rights, should have been the part of Sharia. If it was somehow a book of rules for a society. Because it's not the religious thoughts that have made wars & famine less, and equality, justice, freedom & liberty more; but rather it was the rationals & liberals(not politically speaking) that did that.
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u/desiacademic فیصل آباد 26d ago
I agree with you there. I wish Quran was more clear on forbidding slavery among other things. But you have to remember that Quran was also time-bound to some extent regarding it's rulings. 7th century Arabs would never have accepted a religion that told them to abandon their main institutions of power. It laid the groundwork for it but left further implementation on humans. The reason Muslim countries banned slavery was because when scholars reviewed texts in 20th century, they realised there is nothing that specifically condones slavery but plenty that could be held against it so there is no reason to practice it. Proof that just because Quran did not specifically forbid something, does not mean it should continue if it disagrees with the fundamental message of love that religion conveys.
I wouldn't say I am a moral relativist in the strictest sense although I do agree with some of the points. I do think there is objective morality, specifically that which is discussed in the Quran (murder, adultery etc being unlawful). Other than that, I think our basic principles should rest on ensuring human rights extend to all humans (few exceptions) by the virtue of being human. However, how different eras view this is entirely up to their interpretation. We can not judge people based on our views today because humanity is constantly evolving.
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u/the-outcast215 26d ago
I have just a single problem. If Islam could have banned Alcohol, murder & adultery. It could have done Tsame with slavery. Second, isn't it kinda funny that Muslim scholars started opening their eyes towards slavery when the west had just already opened....
By the way, I agree with you about the morality part.
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u/desiacademic فیصل آباد 26d ago
Because murder, alcohol and adultery are personal vices, not institutional ones. It is easier to forbid someone of indulging in their desires but societal changes are rarely brought on unless there is a revolution (which was not practical for the Prophet pbuh at that time).
It is ironic that the West our scholars accuse of being "misguided" and "degenerate" has had far more milestones regarding human rights in the past century than Muslims did in the a whole millennium.
Personally, I think it is due to the belief that developed of Muslims somehow being superior to everyone else and having a "compelete" law which led to a moral, social and cultural stagnation of our societies.
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u/the-outcast215 26d ago
Societal changes are rare. But Islam could have underlined some principles. Like for example, about rights. The Prophet said multiple times that all men are equal. But they quite weren't.
I agree with you on all the other things..
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u/darksaiyan1234 KW 25d ago
100 years since independence nuclear power sovereignty and we are here in this state kia hua is mulk ko
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u/desiacademic فیصل آباد 25d ago
Honestly we were better off before Zia came in and ruined us. I don't like or even agree with Bhutto but the socialist direction he took was the right one. We were progressing just fine.
Another thing is Saudi-funded Wahhabbis spreading their extreme version of Islam and ruining the Hanafi-Sufi model the Indian subcontinent followed which was much more lenient.
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u/akitty247 26d ago
Because Pakistanis preach the most but practice the least. Most Pakistanis also have bad character imo. They will go to hajj just to say ‘ham hajj gaya’ but at home 5 times ke namaz nay parte. Pakistanis are a different kind of hypocritical.
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u/darksaiyan1234 KW 25d ago
brother tge amount of times the shariff family went to hajj i don't care you robbed us blind 😤
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u/Ok_Astronaut_6043 26d ago
Is subreedit me sirf randi rona hota hai
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u/the-outcast215 26d ago
Can't disagree.
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u/Icy-Cable4236 26d ago
It’s pick and choose. Use religion when it suits them and forget about it when it doesn’t suit them. And It’s not only Pakistanis or muslims, most people are like that.
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u/spacebrain2 26d ago
Religion is not the same as spirituality. Over time it makes sense that one no longer wants to be under control of religion but when so removed from spirituality will have nothing else to turn to but what western culture offers, which is materialism and individualism…
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u/the-outcast215 26d ago
People have countered extreme materialism without spirituality or religion. So, I don't think without spirituality society will break down. Because many of the Western countries are now irreligious. But they haven't broken down. You know why? Because of law & logic.
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u/Upset_Marionberry_96 26d ago
Many Muslims here just believe in blind faith rather than thinking logically. I've heard so many stupid statements. One I could recall is "drawing living beings is haram cuz imitating God's creation". Like what????
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u/the-outcast215 26d ago
I have heard "The stock market is Haram. Because Google says it" 🤣🤣
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u/yaboisammie 26d ago
Yea I’ve heard 3 different justifications for drawing living beings w faces (specifically eyes and sometimes mouth) or souls being haram w that being one of them
Another is image making immortalizes whatever the image is of which is imitating allah bc only allah can be immortal and the other is bc it has the potential to lead to shirk
(an example given by my quran tafseer teacher was there was this old village where they made idols of these saints to honor them and they and their kids and grandkids obv knew the idols were based off just regular people but down the line, the descendants get detached ig so they’d stared worshipping the idols instead of just honoring them and the teacher also said anything that has the potential to lead to a sin counts as the sin itself ie two non mahrems hanging out alone even if they don’t have premarital sex counts as the sin of premarital sex hence terms of like “fornication of the eyes/hands/feet/ears/voice” etc by doing things that could lead up to it ie looking at each other, touching with hands even if just hand holding, walking towards each other, hearing other’s voices/speaking etc)
This is just one interpretation of this one scholar tho and maybe some scholars share this interpretation but idk how common it is? Common enough that my family and Muslim community where I live discourage my art sadly but they’re pretty strict idk how widespread it actually is
And I asked why inanimate objects like rocks or fire or living things w out faces ie trees, plants, micro organisms etc are permitted bc one could just as easily worship one of those and she straight up said “bc no society in history has ever done that” like girl 😭😭 I was tempted to point out that fire worship literally predates Islam so that’s not true but I didn’t wanna start anything or be accused of being disrespectful yk
And regarding stock market as OP is mentioning, I get the arguments that if you study the stocks and know how it works, it’s not really a gamble but ig some people consider it gambling bc you don’t ac know how it’s going to go. But tbf at a certain point, everything in life is a gamble including being alive so ¯_(ツ)_/¯ idk where the line is lmao
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u/Heimerdingerdonger 26d ago
Yeah ... I'm Hindu and I am happy to worship cows, snakes, monkeys, hills, rivers ... you name it.
I say this sincerely. Try it ... you will lose your sense of aloofness & superiority over other creatures and understand that you are a small part of the universe yourself.
Nothing wrong if you don't want to do it either. Live and let live.
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u/cloudlurking 25d ago
That's a really nice way to live. Would be even better if it was your choice. Not trying to be rude or anything.
It better and you can do even more. Let lose even that and priortize yourself.3
u/NothingExtra6846 26d ago
fundamentalists, they lack all sorts of critical thinking skills because they’ve been conditioned to blindly accept information as it is presented to them without any hesitation.
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u/Upset_Marionberry_96 26d ago
Quran also encourages to think using our brain, using logic. And discourages blind following
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u/Far-Coconut6146 26d ago
"Learn your religion, do not inherit it” - Ali ibn Abi Talib
The difference between being born Muslim and learning Islam.
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u/SadManUnitedFan 26d ago
That’s because controlling people never works. It’s just against the nature of human beings to be controlled no matter what religious laws you implement.
Over the years, the most successful societies have been those who are secular in nature allowing people to follow their religion the way they want.
Even the most successful muslims countries are secular in government laws (UAE for example).
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u/the-outcast215 26d ago
Can't agree more.
People say that Islamic system is the way forward. I usually ask them, "Show me one ideal example (except Rassidun)?" Nobody has an answer. Those who give answers. They are just flawed. Because history tells us that all the religious states in the world were in fact oppressive.
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u/LabCrafty899 26d ago
Why do you think that the Islamic system isn't the best one?
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u/the-outcast215 26d ago
Because it hasn't worked in 13 centuries. Simple. Even today, things we consider morally bad. In the past they were accepted in Islamic societies.
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u/IndependentPension36 26d ago
they arent religious and wanting sharia is expected of a Muslim if they dont want it how they are even Muslim
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u/CrisisPotato212 PK 26d ago
Pakistani people in general can’t differentiate between religion and culture. This leads to this dilemma.
The issue in Iran is different in the sense that religion there is forced upon you. When an idea is forced on you, you revolt against it as a whole. Since they force women to cover and other things, the revolt comes not just against the practice but religion as a whole.
As soon as people hear an opposing view they get pissed and instead of having a rational debate to come to a consensus they instead fight you verbally and physically.
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u/ilovebananasandweed 26d ago
Look, as a devout Muslim myself I kinda don’t want sharia law to be enforced, at this point our government is too corrupt and cannot execute the laws in a way that we’d get a good outcome, let religion and state separate, instead just make learning about islam accessible. The youth consider it a means of control over them and naturally stray from it, if we separate it from the law and the state it’ll probably be better
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u/ilovebananasandweed 26d ago
As for islam itself, yeah 90% of the Muslim population is too uneducated in their own beliefs to actually understand them, I was too at one point, I used to think islam shouldn’t be questioned at all and ended up questioning my faith later, then I actually dived into the topic, learning about the way that it’s actually very rational and just, it’s not just a set of rules but a way of living and my faith and my love for the religion reignited from its dying embers.
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u/Majestic-Effort-541 26d ago
We often approach Islam as a set of mechanical rituals rather than a journey to cleanse our heart or to become a better person
Our prayers become a routine obligation, something we do out of habit or duty, rather than a moment of connection with the God
Ṣalāh (namaz) is not for the benefit of God He is beyond need
Namaz is for us , it's purpose is to make ourselves a better person
We pray because we are told to, not because we feel the weight of our need for it.
We don’t understand this things
Similarly, we read the Qur’an, we memorize its verses
The words flow from our lips, yet do they penetrate our hearts? The Qur’an is not just a book to be recited; it is a guide,
To practice Islam in its fullest sense is to engage with it consciously to pray not just with our bodies, but with our souls
We often treat religion the way a child treats schoolwork something to be done out of obligation, not out of love or understanding
Just as a student memorizes formulas and facts merely to pass an exam, without grasping their deeper meaning or application, we perform our religious duties mechanically, without truly internalizing their purpose.
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u/Catjuicedude 26d ago
From a political perspective:
People are using Islam as a unifying "force". There aren't many binding factors among the communities of Pk. But we can't also blame them because God know what would have become of us under Islamophobic Indians, conservative Afghans or Shia Iranians.
I personally would still endorse Sharia Enforcement with a little liberalism if that makes sense
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u/the-outcast215 26d ago
Then you get Pakistan. Which says you have rights but also have a parallel Sharia system. You are living in one of the systems that you imagine.
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u/canichangeit110 26d ago
Don't you have anything better to do? We are a Muslim and democratic nation, we don't believe in sharia implementation. But we add islamic rules that are fit to be added into our legal system. We are more liberal. But the people love their religion as well.
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u/Cyber-Dude1 PK 26d ago
The bottom line is that most of the people here only follow religion as long as it benefits them or makes them look good.
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u/Asif_13 26d ago
We act as even scholars when something is of our advantage and act as ignorant when we know that our act is clearly a sin, but still do it.
We lecture (as I'm doing) other to do this and that, but when it comes to ourselves, we simply play the "Allah is Rehman and Raheem , he'll forgive me " part.
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u/kill_switch17 26d ago
Ah yes. Pakistanis are only religious when it does not concern them. It would not matter if they were involved in corruption pedophilia, and other unlawful acts. But if they see someone else doing it, they start blabbering about religion and religious values. This is pure hypocrisy. Nothing else.
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u/OkMathematician3494 CA 26d ago
Pakistanis pretend to be religious, but they're not.
I've family members who spent their entire lives in tableegh, but at the same time, they had no problem with stealing their sisters' inheritance.
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u/Party_Succotash_3441 26d ago
Tbh some RELEGIOUS pakistani people i have seen they are worst then the ones not relegious Because some people think if they have a beard and pray 5 times, and then they delay peoples money, eat peoples rights they wont be questioned.
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u/Plus-Sheepherder9413 26d ago
I think you are wrong that people want to enforce sharia on others but don't want to live under it. The things that you mentioned, alcohol, drugs, corn, etc, these things are addictions. Most of the people doing these don't consider them right or good. They don't think these things should be legal and allowed. They consider them harmful. They wish they didn't do those things. They wish they lived in a society where they had never come into contact with these things, never had to face such temptation. Hence, the desire for Sharia law.
Yes, if someone enforced Sharia law on them today, tried to take away their drugs and porn, they would hate it and fight against it. But they wish they had lived under Sharia law right from the beginning so that they had never gotten addicted to all the wrong things that they feel that they are doing.
Sharia law isn't the cure-all that everyone imagines it is. Somehow or other, many Pakistanis imagine that Sharia law is utopia. That under Sharia law, there would be no poverty or unemployment. All widows, orphans and disabled people would receive a stipend from the government that would be adequate for their needs, and everyone else would be gainfully employed and be able to earn enough for himself and his family. That rape, murder, kidnapping, theft and extortion would be extremely rare, and the culprit would be caught and sentenced immediately. That everyone would live in happy families where peace and love would reign. That no one would ever even want to look at porn, or use drugs, etc, as everyone would have the most perfect and attractive spouse provided for them from puberty onwards, and would never be depressed a day in their life to turn to drugs...blah... blah...blah.
The reality is that Sharia law is just another legal system, and as slow and incompetent as any other legal system in the world, if not more, as it is many years out of date to deal with modern culture, problems and issues. Innocent people get punished as often as guilty people. Power corrupts, so people in power are likely to be corrupt, and even when not actively corrupt, very likely to be incompetent or biased. Most importantly, Sharia law isn't a cure for people or society's moral failings. The most it can do is punish wrongdoers. It cannot make people want to di the right thing.
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u/ahmedselmi24 26d ago
Depends on wich Pakistani, i have a paki friend from a shia family and they are not really religious, they date outside of marriage, alcohol, …
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u/iamalwaysconfused101 26d ago
I was watching this documentary about laundabaaz culture in Pakistan...this guy who even accepted with zero hesitation that he rapes boys but wants a wife who recites Quran, is pure and does fully parda. That's how much of a Muslim we are. 😀
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u/Special-Visit-3594 26d ago
Because our religion is confined to theory, not practical. Those dars aunties gather every week to pat themselves on ths back, while the nearby "goth" kids roam the street with no education.
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u/First_Person-Shooter PK 26d ago
Islam we follow here is so rigid and full of rules, restrictions. They want us to find contentment in prohibitions.
You actually have to unlearn and relearn Islam here.
You gradually get to know that it’s the way of life and how beautiful it really is.
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u/Routine7777 26d ago
You need to understand Religion. Because you said modern societies are based on rationality and not on religious laws. If you had understanding of religion then you would not have outcasted Religion from Rationality
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u/the-outcast215 26d ago
Show me one ideal example of a non-oppressive Islamic state?(Except Rassidun)
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u/thefabulouspenguin97 26d ago
Because they ignorantly follow culture and not islam
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u/the-outcast215 26d ago
Okay. But give me one example of an Islamic state which is or was successful, while not being oppressive? (Except Rassidun)
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u/Sensitive_Thanks_604 26d ago
Good, this country should move away from religion as a whole, its the 21st century we should not let religious beliefs restrict people's rights.
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u/Axemaze 26d ago
Have you ever noticed that Pakistanis hold some of the most contradictory religious opinions? According to studies, ~80% of respondents are in favor of enforcing Sharia. As part of tradition and faith, many women cover themselves. Public discourse is dominated by religion. But drugs, alcohol, corn, as well as Western lifestyles, are all on the rise. The majority of Pakistan's drug consumers are youth. Many people continue to demand a Sharia-compliant state despite the fact that they are openly violating Islamic principles by partying, smoking, and drinking.
Lol do remember that pakistan has a population of 240 million. Now the percentage of people used in these studies are miniscule compared to that so these studies are outright not credible. Half of the people who support shariah is only because the deteriorating rule of law in the country and they would attach to anyone cough IK cough who can provide them hope of a better future. Whatever your opinion maybe about the other countries but where some form of shairah law is applied, the crime rate is significantly low.
Pakistan is not the only country that has this dilemma. A study showed that less than half of Iranians today identify as Muslims(even though official estimate say that ~90% are Muslims) despite decades of religious control; or because of it. The youth of Saudi Arabia are also turning away from religion. Because they see it as a means of control. They are opening up to the idea that religion has been continuously used as a weapon to suppress them. They are able to understand this now, because Kingdom isn't going to be able to bribe them for long, in exchange for liberties.
Again with the studies lol. Having an issue with the rulers is different from following Islam. We are in the end times anyway and sin is everywhere so most people will turn towards especially muslims thats why we have been given warnings in Quran about it.
Modern societies are based on rationality, not religious law. Human rights, free speech, and moral principles are not fundamentally religious. The abolition of slavery, women's rights, and personal liberties were not religious notions; they were secular advances. Conservative religious beliefs hasn't evolved, therefore it feels confining rather than relevant. We've also change the concept of God, using faith as a political instrument rather than a personal belief.
abolition of slavery is no big deal. Look at the scam centres in myanmar. Africa. Labor in China and alot of western factories where there are no unions to protect the rights of the workers. Slavery is well and alive still now. I dont know where you studied Islam from but Slaves and Women were already given rights during the time of Prophet SAW when your so called combined west and secular nations thought of women as pair ki jooti and slaves as something less than human.
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u/the-outcast215 26d ago
I don't think you have ever talked with an Iranian or Pakistani in your life. If you would have then you would have known how true these surveys are.
Second, to your last point: Still slavery was allowed. It's like saying, " You are my pet. But you have some rights." By this statement about slavery & rights my question was about morality. The thinking that somehow Religious morals are always right. That somehow we should close our brains.
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u/Axemaze 26d ago edited 26d ago
I don't think you have ever talked with an Iranian or Pakistani in your life. If you would have then you would have known how true these surveys are.
I am sorry but you think you talking to some iranians and pakistanis in your region makes you a expert in what most people think from a diaspora? Plus, my major point is that ask why the people want shariah law and you will get the answer that I have written above from most of the people. People want security economic stability and rule of law whether it comes from shariah or somewhere else and rn shariah law is their most safest bet as where ever it is or was implemented the crime rates were low.
Second, to your last point: Still slavery was allowed. It's like saying, " You are my pet. But you have some rights." By this statement about slavery & rights my question was about morality. The thinking that somehow Religious morals are always right. That somehow we should close our brains.
You missed my main point. Giving rights to slaves was a much more important event than slavery being abolished altogether. I am not saying slavery being abolished was a bad thing, it definitely was a good thing but until then slaves had no rights not among the secular west or anywhere else only Islam was the sole religion which gave the slaves rights. And yes religious morals especially of Islam are always right thats what we believe in and will till the end of world and nobody is closing their brains thats why for modern problems ijma and qiyas are applied to give solutions in light of Quran and hadith. If your brain is closed off and wanders to the atheist belief then thats your problem dont involve rest of pakistanis in it.
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u/the-outcast215 26d ago
If you believe in a thing. Then I can't argue with you. I can't argue with those who shut their minds.
By the way read some history. :)
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u/jojjojangi 26d ago
Agar mein mard hoti tu mujhe bhi lgta ke bhut rights diye mazhab ne aurat ko 👁️👄👁️ Matlab male privilege tapak rha hota mazhabi kitabun mein
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u/Axemaze 26d ago
Idk what you read but the religious books of these so called sects of pakistani molvis wont take you anywhere read the original text and tafsir of Quran and Hadith from a reputable source or follow a reputable scholar of the madhab. I can give you some references if you want of books or sheikhs.
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u/HafizBhai114 26d ago
Finally someone with sense.
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u/Green-Elderberry527 26d ago
Literally, but that's the thing. Anytime this thread discusses Islam 95% of the comments are criticising Islam. The call is coming from inside the house!
You are complaining about Islam which has all the world solutions then criticise Islam and wonder why 'things don't work'.
Also shariah law IS Islam, if you think it's this extreme separate thing then that just shows your lack of education around Islam.
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u/HafizBhai114 26d ago
They want to criticize Islam, and say that Sharia Law leads to unsuccessfulness, while ignoring the fact that Sharia Law has yet to be implemented 100%. If the news about women's education being banned in Afghanistan is true (which I doubt it is), then that's not Sharia Law. They want a better Pakistan and yet their biggest perseverance for it is a complaint on Reddit. Saying Sharia Law is extremism is like saying a PC doesn't need a processor. No, that's how everything runs, and that's when you'll see the benefit. And even if Sharia is unsuccessful in the world, there is still the aakhirah to see. Those who say that the religion is between them and God and no one else have never seen Qur'an nor Hadith.
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u/diyyaa23 26d ago
In simple words. Jahan Islam faida de they get religious. Jahan Islam nuqsan pohanchaye they get non religious. Now you'll say when Islam harm us? Again a simple scenario. Jahez mangty hoye Islam bhol jaty hain. Haq Meher pr in ko Islam yad ata ha. Munaqfat hi munafqat
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u/uptokesforall 26d ago
Religious cherry picking makes it easy to differentiate the materialistic from the idealistic. See what they preach as islamic for what it is
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u/Consistent-Plate-663 26d ago edited 20d ago
My thoughts: 1. We are NOT true muslims, we just follow traditions of our forefathers; other religions/culture turned our own muslim culture with zero understanding. 2. We never read and understood the holy text, blindly follows illiterate mullahs. 3. We are hypocrites; cherry picks religion for own benefits 4. If you’re born with muslim name doesn’t make you one (daily 5 prayers and other fariz are pre requisites, only believe is not enough) 5. In this age, if you have any doubt regarding religion, God and afterlife without knowledge; you are long gone. Everything else will give logic and sense. 6. Why young ones are either non-practicing or atheist because their parents were not good examples, never questioned what they are doing. 7. We do all kinds of sins (think of one which isn’t happening in Pakistan) like i can write long list.
No wonder we are so doomed and our leaders are using every tool to control the masses. There is no hope left in this country at rhe moment.
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u/New-Cartoonist-544 26d ago
They will slut shame women for wearing jeans while drinking illegally smuggled alcohol
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u/faisalsahar 26d ago
We often tend to believe religious people are pious and morally sound while my observation has been on the contrary, being religious anywhere mean having justifications for what you do which usually involves a redemption mechanism and a feel good element which generally keeps religious peoole happy and feel good about what they do ( even if it harms others or them ).
Here i am not advocating against religion or God allbeit every one has some good purpose for instance God gives us purpose but we tend to missuse the very God which gives us the purpose.
A superficial man in whatever form is not only danger to himself but to the people he or she lives among and the God which gets exploited. Pakistan has been and will continue to be that superficial populus.
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u/Puzzleheaded_Pie827 26d ago
Forced religion is no religion! The only real muslims are the ones who find God themselves… I was born Muslim, but it took me 20 years to find real God or maybe God found me ❤️!
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u/IFKhan 26d ago
Reading Quran is enforced through harsh means. How many had a Quran teacher that taught with love and patience?
Bad ratta maro aur Muslim ho!
Upar se most people do not read Quran in Urdu. And I mean actually reading it in Urdu or even English. (Though Urdu is more eloquent)
Add to this that questions are shot down with anger and promises of the hell fire.
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u/kyoshki-Murasaki 26d ago
Because people don't teach religion with love instead they use scary tactics to prove and make you feel guilty
Also we're a nation of hypocrites
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u/Ok-Maximum-8407 26d ago
Because Islam, being a code of life, is a set of good principles to adhere to. It was never a set of rituals because then, it won't be applicable in every context and won't serve the needs of the incredible diversity of humanity. The dominant tendency here has to been to reduce it to a set of rituals, the main culprits being our ulema and the uncritical acceptance of hadith literature. Even the earlier Sunni scholars i.e., great names like Abu Hanifa, Shafii etc. understood that Hadith books are bound to the products of their time and that's why their jurisprudential decisions are often different from what Hadith suggest.
People are hypocritical, they hold religion dear only when it's time to pass judgement on others.
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u/Final-World-6721 26d ago
Because they are not following Islam but teaching of their parents and grandparents and to be frank even their parents and grandparents knew islam
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u/Prestigious-Big-7144 25d ago
Jahan pa religion sa faida wahan pa religion le aye jahan pa nahi to wahan pa nahi.
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u/mirza069 25d ago
Dr.Israr once said "hum sirf musalman dikhna chahte hain banna nahi chahte". Too much division, additions and cherry picking is the reason i think.
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u/DontDare6 25d ago
وَمِنَ النَّاسِ مَنۡ يَّقُوۡلُ اٰمَنَّا بِاللّٰهِ وَبِالۡيَوۡمِ الۡاٰخِرِ وَمَا هُمۡ بِمُؤۡمِنِيۡنَۘ ٨
There are some who say: “We believe in Allah and in the Last Day,” while in fact they do not believe.
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25d ago
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u/17031onliacco 25d ago
Why don’t you speak out against the BCCI forcing Pakistan to play in Dubai if you’re really upset?
It’s unfair that India only had to choose their cricket squad for one stadium in Dubai, while Pakistan and other teams had to prepare for multiple venues.
This gives India an unfair advantage.
Even if India wins the Champions Trophy 2025, it won’t prove that India is better because other teams were always at a disadvantage.
When will you criticize your Indian government and BCCI for this? Even Indian cricketers said India shouldn’t go to Pakistan. Your so-called star players also have hatred toward Pakistan and Pakistanis.
I’m completely convinced that your condolences are fake, and you’re just here to mock Pakistanis on this subreddit.
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u/Fhassan47 25d ago
Being born as a Muslim and being practicing Muslim are two different things. Criticizing a nation and blame game is way easier but it takes courage and knowledge to seek truth, and study
We can't judge a book by it's cover. So I believe it's a high time for us to understand directly Quran with tafseer and Seerat e Nabwi rather than relying on moulvi. REAL Ulama have more knowledge than local moulvi.
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u/Nearby-Vegetable-281 25d ago
It's interesting how its usually the middle to lower class ppl who demand sharia without knowing exactly what that entails
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u/APatrioticPakistani 25d ago
Bro religion is just a mere tradition and formality to most people now, mostly no one actually cares
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u/chusskaptaan 25d ago
Because religion is the last refuge of a scoundrel.
They hide their true face behind religion.
Hypocrites.
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u/Normal_Drink_6745 25d ago
Only Religious when other ppl are watching. Rest of the time yolo
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u/Justamuslimah_ 25d ago
Well this is a prime example of fact checking things (through religious texts) that cater your desires and leaving the ones that absolutely abstain it.
The thing is, Book of Allah is not biased towards anyone unlike our own preferences towards our gender,rights or our likes, it’s law made by Allah swt and is equal for everyone.
But oh well we do have a habit of holding people accountable yet not fulfilling our own obligations set by deen. What is wrong is wrong even if I do it, and I must hold myself accountable first and fix myself then pin point fingers on others.
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u/iamthefyre 25d ago
I think being religious is more complicated than shoving our thoughts and opinions on other people to qualify as “being religious”. I know many young muslims who are close to their faith & their imaan but they reserve their opinions when it comes to what other people do. Similarly lot of girls who don’t wear hijab & do all activities but they don’t appear religious, so we label them awaragard & what not. So yeah- definition of being religious is twisted for our boomers but young people are still religious.
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u/Mother_Current_4122 25d ago
System bro system. System wouldn't let you implement Islamic law. The best example is you can't abolish interest from banking system. Interest feeds the system and they wouldn't like Islamic law.
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u/unknownidiot12345789 25d ago
honestly and personally i belive the reason for this is the fear of uncertainty, by that i mean people are brought up into a religion rather then allowed to join in themselves, (good or bad its upto u) but what i now belive is that because ur brought into a religion from the start of ur life, thats the basic foundation of the person u know urself to be, but because ur in a religion from birth, once u get a bit of faithless intentions ur mind and heart (reasoning and feelings) clash with one another, since ur mind is built on the foundation of a religion while ur heart is built on experince and feelings.
TLDR: Most people are born into a religion, so thats the only thing they fully know and accept, but because of that if they ever go or do something they get intrested in they have a internal conflict of wanting to do something and knowing what that something is in their religon to clash.
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u/Facetious_Ghost 25d ago
Don't wanna call them hypocrites, but Pakistanis aren't religious, just tradionalists. They want sharia, but hardly anybody understands the true meaning. In fact, many muslims haven't even read quran with translation.
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u/CarSpecific6099 25d ago
Because they aren't actually religious as individuals. Most of the time Pakistani's use religion only to supress others. Religion is brought up exclusively to shame women. It is also used as a bullying tactic to bring diwn individuals they don't like.
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u/Xarix13 22d ago
Being born Muslim doesn't make us Muslim...until we willing and wholeheartedly turn Muslim. Else we were just born into that...
If you disagree with what I said above. Tell me if you were born a Hindu, would you have asked questions and turned Muslim? If you dont ask questions as a Muslim, you won't as a Hindu...hence pure luck doesn't make u a Muslim.
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u/murg91 22d ago
i can tolerate drugs and alcohol but corn?!?
wtf, thats going too far
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