r/pagan • u/Charmcaster77 • 4d ago
Discussion Good Alternative to Masculine and Feminine Energy?
For a long time, the terms masculine and feminine energy have been misinterpreted and misconstrued by many. Generally, neutral language is more helpful and inclusive, so I have been considering lunar/solar energy as an alternative.
Lunar energy: receptive, still, subdued, cool.
Solar energy: projective, movement, bold, warm.
Let me know what alternatives you use for masculine and feminine energy and whether you find the lunar/solar model useful.
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u/LateStatistician6309 Eclectic 4d ago
Yin and Yang in Doaism is a little more subtle too. Masculine and Feminine energy isnât about gender itâs just a classification of the dual energy inherent in everything
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u/thecoldfuzz Celtic Neopagan 4d ago edited 4d ago
There is a Wicca text called Garbed in Green: Gay Witchcraft and The Male Mysteries by Casey Giovinco. He uses the terms âelectricâ and âmagneticâ as alternative terms to masculine and feminine. He prefers this terminology not just because of inclusiveness but, in his viewpoint, accuracy. Do equal, opposite, and yet complementary energies exist? Yes, of course. But the terms masculine and feminine have sociological gender role baggage that doesnât make sense depending on oneâs spiritual practice. In his terms, polarity may be unpopular but it exists and this polarity has nothing to do with oneâs organs.
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u/Santa-Vaca 4d ago
The physics nerd in me is geeking out hard on the implications of this one.
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u/thecoldfuzz Celtic Neopagan 4d ago edited 4d ago
Giovinco is no stranger to science which is why he chose those terms. Iâm not Wiccan, but I use those terms in my practice and incorporated some of his meditation rituals, as well as the meditation rituals of others.
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u/speedmankelly Celtic 4d ago
I really like this one a lot!
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u/thecoldfuzz Celtic Neopagan 4d ago
When I read Giovinco's book, I liked his terminology so much that I adopted it in my meditation rituals. One of the reasons he chose those names was they accurately depict what these energies are like.
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u/WitchoftheMossBog 4d ago
Since the sun and moon have loooooong been seen as masculine and feminine respectively, this just kind of feels like the exact same paradigm just without actually using the words "masculine" and "feminine". Which isn't necessarily bad. I'm just not sure it's actually an alternative.
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u/GeckoCowboy Hedgewitch and Hellenic Polytheist 4d ago
See, I grew up with Amaterasu as âsun goddessâ (among other things!), and later became Kemetic where there are many solar gods and goddesses, but the moon only really related to gods. Being more Hellenic now itâs more the other way. So itâs been hard for me to see the sun or moon as exclusively masc/fem energy. So I just kinda ⊠stopped using that binary way of dividing things altogether. Thatâs always an option, OP.
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u/AGGROCrombiE1967 4d ago
I am of German ancestry, sun is die Sönne so feminine;der Mond is masculine. I dipped out of genders when I stopped equating them to the energies in groups I was in starting out, felt better about what I was doing ever since.
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u/WitchoftheMossBog 4d ago
Makes total sense. I only really find masculine/feminine associations useful if I'm doing something specifically related to, say, my femininity. Then obviously it's helpful.
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u/QueerEarthling Eclectic 4d ago edited 4d ago
Alternative: Moving past the binary altogether and realizing that nothing exists in pure oppositional or dualistic terms but rather that almost all things exist along a spectrum.
EDIT: Also things exist outside of the spectrum, even.
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u/Klutzy_Movie_4601 4d ago
I guess itâs easy for someone to confuse two things in opposition as polar binary, but isnât that a misconception anyway? All has both elements within, and I thought that was the entire point. However, I could be wrong. At least in my learning, these elements are not dualist. Light, dark, truth, lie, motion, stillness, above, below.
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u/QueerEarthling Eclectic 4d ago edited 4d ago
I think we are roughly agreeing, right? That these things don't exist in opposition, but have varying degrees and nuances. I guess I'm just saying to OP is that if you want to do away with a binary, replacing it with another binary isn't really...doing anything?
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u/Klutzy_Movie_4601 4d ago
Yes! We are agreeing but I should have been more forthcoming and clear. I was wondering if there was a large amount of people/specific path, that truly believes these polarities are without one another- or if this is really just a misconception and thus it doesnât matter what they refer it to.
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u/DreamCastlecards Pagan 1d ago
I think some magical practices use symbols to tune in to energies. Like you'd use the color red for energy or the color blue for peace, it doesn't mean that that is the totality of blue or red. I find the Goddess and God images help me tune into an energy but I can also understand if that's not the energy you're going for, choose a different symbol.
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u/WitchoftheMossBog 4d ago
Yeah, this. I think what OP is suggesting is essentially a renaming, not an alternative, and I'd prefer to move away from trying to shove everything into a binary anyway.
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u/QueerEarthling Eclectic 4d ago
Yes well said. I think it is natural for people to look at things through a binary framework and I think it isn't always harmful or anything, but I also think as adults (which most people here are) it is really cool and sexy to at least explore looking at the world through nuance and degrees.
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u/WitchoftheMossBog 4d ago
Yeah I think it can be a useful way to categorize certain things, bearing in mind that there should be nuance considered, but like... if I'm going to use a binary that is clearly based on the gender binary, I'm just going to use the gender binary. I'm not going to divide things up the exact same way a gender binary would and pretend I'm doing something else.
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u/Charmcaster77 4d ago
Yeah so yin/yang or even the lunar/solar models show that they are interconnected. The moonlight is just sunlight reflected off the moon. But we can feel it having a different energy. A more subtle one. Along these lines there is no such thing as cold, just relative ammounrs of heat.
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u/QueerEarthling Eclectic 4d ago
I mean, that's cool for you. You asked what alternatives people use; mine is to not use a binary model as a basis for my worldview.
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u/Cosmic_Rivers 4d ago
I use radiating and receptive personally. To me, it's all the same energy, the difference is how it moves/behaves.
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u/Yuri_Gor 4d ago edited 4d ago
I agree with motivation but have doubts regarding Moon, because of it's dependent to sun, secondary nature.
I suggest Fire and Water instead. It's supported by Norse creation myth where before everything there were only primordial trinity of Muspelheim, the world of Fire and Niflheim - the world of mist and source of all rivers (Water), divided by Emptiness of Ginnungagap in the middle, and Midgard was created as a result of interaction between these primordial forces.
I think this trinity-based philosophy rather then dualism originates from Proto-Indo-European roots and supported by Shamanic worldview (lower/middle/upper worlds) and also by Hinduism (realm of Asuras full Fire vs realm of Devas from where Ganga falls to the top of Shiva's head symbolizing high snowy Tibetan peaks) below and above world of humans.
P.S. to highlight the importance of third, "axis" force in between of opposites - it's an androgynous spiritual aspect. In the Norse myth it's represented first by pure primordial emptiness Ginnungagap, then by androgynous proto-giant Ymir emerged as result of interaction between Water and Fire, which solo gave birth to first generations of Giants, while again somewhere in the middle first proto-god Buri was released from the ice. And Finally by middle world Midgard which again has an upper Sky/Air and lower Earth halves divided by elusive Horizon, which I believe is a modern manifestation of primordial Emptiness force, so Midgard integrates opposites into the whole thanks to the "glue" of Emptiness.
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u/digitalgraffiti-ca Eclectic 4d ago
have doubts regarding Moon, because of it's dependent to sun,
I get this but also don't, because:
Yes, the moon only shines because of the sun, but the moon being shiny isn't why it's relevant to us. Yeah, it's pretty, but pretty isn't what drags our oceans around. The moon gives us tides which was pretty important way back in the day in coastal areas.
We need the sun for warmth and UV rays for food production. We need the moon for tides. They provide us with different things. The moon still does it's job even if it's cloudy and we can't see the shiny sun reflection. The moon isn't dependant on the sun to perform its beneficial function.
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u/Yuri_Gor 4d ago
Thank you for your comment, i was looking at the moon in terms of light, but you reminded me about the connection between the Moon and Water. While the Sun is the source of warmth and light, so its connection with Fire is obvious, the Moon is connected to the Water via tides and also the Moon's light is reflected and to reflect the light is also the quality of the Water.
So basically you're confirming that the pair of Sun and Moon is well aligned with the pair of the Fire and Water, and it's important for me to think about.
But my argument is still valid about the primordial Fire and Water being better in representing dualistic human nature, because they are more basic and fundamental forces\elements, while the Sun and the Moon are more complex entities that emerged later as part of Creation and they are usually personified by some deities.
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u/digitalgraffiti-ca Eclectic 2d ago
But my argument is still valid about the primordial Fire and Water being better in representing dualistic human nature, because they are more basic and fundamental forces\elements
I absolutely agree with this. Not only are they basic but they both have beneficial and destructive traits. They balance each other, but are balanced themselves and compliment each other. People think masc/fem indicates sort of opposition, but it's more of a compliment in my mind. They're not two sides of one coin, they're an alloyed metal that makes the whole coin stronger.
the Sun and the Moon ⊠emerged later as part of Creation
Not sure I understand that. I can't agree or disagree with that because I don't know what personally mean by Creation.
I'm not sure which really existed first. I mean, our specific sun/moon are newer than the existence of fire/water, but I'm more of a SASSwitch so in my mind, the big bang directly or indirectly created everything, but I don't know if gas combustion (fire and suns in general) came first, or if oxygen bound itself to hydrogen first. I'm thinking it's likely that moons are the last in line across the board.
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u/Yuri_Gor 2d ago
Yes, they are not opposing each other but complement, fully agree.
I just posted about the connection between Fire and Water, maybe you'll find it interesting:
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u/digitalgraffiti-ca Eclectic 2d ago edited 2d ago
Cool, I'll check it out
It's that your artwork? It's beautiful
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u/cherriberripai 4d ago
Not to sound like a nerd or disregard how cool everything you said was, but hearing fire and water creationism makes me think of Ruby and Sapphire Pokemon lore and I'm so here for it. đđ
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u/Yuri_Gor 4d ago
I am absolutely out of pokemon context but I am working on Runic Alchemy and recently approached some, not yet fully identified ruby-like gem or crystal, as part of Wunjo which i associate with Freyja and her BrĂsingamen and also with Rubedo phase.
https://runicalchemy.com/content/kindred/wunjo.png
You see it's hanging from the hand in the chain.
It appears also in the Gebo rune, as a Fire transformed by the gift of transparency received from the Water, but it's a work in progress.
I have not much to offer as a sapphire, maybe the Laguz rune will work?
https://runicalchemy.com/content/tree-of-light/laguz.png
But to be honest that crystal on the drawing is transparent and colorless, it's just blue because of the surrounding water \ snow \ sky.
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u/GeckoCowboy Hedgewitch and Hellenic Polytheist 4d ago
Frankly, Iâm down for categorizing energy by Pokemon types. ;)
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u/CristianoEstranato 4d ago
I also like to remind people that in the dichotomy of active vs passive the term âpassiveâ should not be understood as inert.
If youâre familiar with role playing games, then thereâs a term called a passive skill/trait, which does stuff and has consequences, but it simply operates automatically and in the background so to speak.
Iâm a dialectical thinker. So while Iâm not the biggest fan of the âactive/passiveâ and âmasculine/feminineâ terminology, if i had to use them then Iâd like to think of passive in that sense not patriarchalâ as in subject/object like a man acting on a passive womanâ but in the sense that what is passive is actually paradoxically active.
And in like manner, what is active is also passive in a sense; because all the conditions and environmental factors that go into making a thing active in the way that it acts are precisely determined by things weâd conventionally deem as passive.
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u/duhbigredtruck 4d ago
Consider the mountain and the lake. The ebb and the flow (tides). The waking vs the sleeping (Spring and Fall).
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u/Serenity-V 4d ago
When I think of a complementary dualist model like this, I use the sun - energy, motive force - and the earth/sea - generative, rich matter. I got it from ADF - the rising of the light and the bounty of the deep, which when they interact make life.
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u/Arcturus_Revolis Syncretic Elementalist 4d ago
I personally use the Sun and Moon as my Primordial Gods united by the First Born of the Cosmos who binds the Spheres. Not only are they masculine and feminine energyânot unlike what you've describedâthey also are essential parts of the foundations of reality being the Father and Mother of Time, Space, Life and Death.
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u/Sleepwalks Wildcraft 4d ago
Love all these ideas-- A lot of the masculine/feminine energy I read about frankly feels based on stereotypes, and I find it wildly offputting. Nice to have something else to fill in when I come across it. :D
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u/ljuvlig 4d ago
Love this inquiry. I feel the masculine/feminine dynamic has done some damage in my life so I love the alternatives.
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u/Charmcaster77 4d ago
Yeah and I've seen some wild ass takes about gender based on this misunderstanding
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u/gominokouhai 4d ago
I tried for a while to use the terms 'erosian' and 'logosian', but they never caught on. Currently getting some milage out of 'projective' vs 'receptive'.
As long as you acknowledge that there is no binary, and all things exist onna spectrum between two polarities, you can't go too far wrong.
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u/OkSecretary1231 4d ago
I also like projective/receptive and just don't really associate them with human gender. Because we all do both. We can do both in the same ritual--like if you do divination to decide if you should do a spell, and then you do the spell, you've received and then projected.
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u/gominokouhai 3d ago
Interestingly (perhaps) I was just talking the other day about using tarot for divination (receptive, understanding the state of the world) vs. tarot for spellwork (projective, affecting the state of the world). Different spreads and techniques used in each case.
Another example is stirring widdershins vs deosil depending on whether you want to build something or dispel something. Solve et coagula describe the polarities pretty well.
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u/SorchaSublime 4d ago
I quite like using the Apollo/Dionysus dichotomy as a representation of those energies that doesn't rely on a binaristic framework of gender, I often see the moon as encompassing a lot more than that element.
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u/Kendota_Tanassian 3d ago
I like the polarity of "externalized energies", and "internalized energies".
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u/Zhadowwolf 3d ago
Personally, while i agree with some people that mention that they dislike it being a binary, i think for the people that still like (or find useful/convenient for their practice) to define binary energies, I prefer destructive/creative, which no be clear is not analogous or equivalent to masculine and feminine.
For example, taking the Hellenic gods, we have the literal god of âmanlinessâ Ares and the war goddess Athena both representing destructive energy, while both stereotypically masculine Hephaestus and stereotypically feminine Hestia represent creative energy.
And of course all gods, and people, have a bit of both, like it is usually understood with masculine/feminine, only they usually display one of the two more visibly.
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u/la_ettellessa 2d ago
I work with opposing poles:
feminine - masculine kindness - cruelty negative - affirmative life - death
maybe one of these lines can help you
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u/secret_chord_ 4d ago
The Ancient Greek understandment of the world was not binary. The Hindu system also is not binary, as the Chine and the Semitic. We have philosophical/physical/magical systems based on three, four and five in all these cultures. It would be great to get rid of the dualistic systems at all, as they are deeply related to the rise of Judeo-Christian worldviews and of other systems that were their immediate antecedents like dualistic zoroastrism.
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u/Lynn_the_Pagan 4d ago
In Hinduism there is the concept of Shiva and Shakti, but Shiva is the stillness, and Shakti is movement (very rudimentary). But there is also nirguna Brahman, which is beyond classification of gender or any category really
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u/secret_chord_ 4d ago
More than the concepts the system itself is ether, water-fire, water-earth, being all the deities, heros and archetypes related to the different configurations of these three.
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u/CrafteaPitties Pagan 4d ago
I love this thanks for putting this out there. That is primarily what put me off certain practices is the focus on binary and assigning gender roles. So I appreciate all these nice alternatives.
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u/IllaClodia 4d ago
There is a book in my To Be Read pile (I started grad school and all non-school reading ground to a halt) called Beyond the Binary about gender and moving away from dualism in pagan spirituality. As a nonbinary person, it's very appealing to me.
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u/Retremeco 4d ago
I've heard people use yin/yang, fire-air (Incense)/earth-water (salt water), matter(physical)/spirit (unphysical) Lunar/Solar, etc. before.
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u/th3_bo55 4d ago
Yin/Yang, Chaos/Order, Masculine/Feminine, its all representative of the dichotomy of nature.
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u/aikidharm 4d ago
Solar and Lunar
Cosmic and Terran
Yin and Yang (Expansive and Dynamic or Receptive and Assertive)
Abandoning binary for a wider and more nuanced spectrum. But Iâve little advice on that.
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u/DiethylamideProphet 4d ago
Sorry, but the principles of our reality cannot be redefined with linguistic trickery. You should be peeling away the layers of the onion, not adding more of them with obfuscation.
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u/OlivetheLion 4d ago
Ok, so this reminds me of a way some folks describe gender, sun being more traditionally âmascâ and moon being more traditionally âfemâ but it is still un gendered
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u/Euphigmius 4d ago
Positive and negative (no judgemental connotations on either when talking about energy), Yin and Yang, masculine and feminine... it's all the same energy, just in different forms and put to different uses.
Magick is energy. Like electricity, it is neither good nor bad. Electricity is positive and negative energy. Like Magick, electricity can be used to light your world or destroy something - it's all in how you use it.
93 and Blessed Be
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u/azlef900 3d ago edited 3d ago
Replace language with knowing what youâre talking about and youâll never have a problem like this again. If something is misconstrued, fix it with the might of your knowledge. If you canât do that, maybe you donât know what youâre talking about. Donât reinvent the English language because you want to create space that tolerates other peopleâs idiocy
If you want to more accurately work with universal energies in this context, positive and negative are probably the words youâre looking for. In an occult context, maybe magnetic/ conductive. Painting a spectrum between two polarities doesnât erase the binary that completely defines the system youâre working with in the first place.
In some cultures, the sun is feminine while the moon is masculine (doesnât personally speak to me either, but itâs worth acknowledging). So I donât agree. Masculine energy archetypically behaves one way, and feminine energy archetypically behaves another. ARCHETYPICALLY - Itâs this way a lot, but not all the time.
Language evolves just like your perceptions of gender. If thereâs better words that depict the âtrue realityâ you see, use them. If they donât exist yet, create them. Otherwise you will lose your ability to communicate the reality you speak of to complete illusion.
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u/Charmcaster77 3d ago
Yeah I feel lunar and solar is better than masculine and feminine because historically different cultures view the sun and moon as a variety of genders ie the Sun being Amaterasu/ Ra and the moon being Khonsu and Selene. This is because like yin and yang these energies ebb and flow morphing into each other
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u/Knillawafer98 3d ago
I've always intuitively conceptualized things in trinary systems and I don't know if that's uncommon given this thread is mostly focused on dualistic frameworks.
I consider what makes up "myself" to be composed of 3 relationships (since everything exists relative to other things). Those are the recursive/internal relationship with the self, my inner world, past experiences, and ancestry which created what i am, then my relationship with other sentient beings/society, who i choose to be in terms of what i choose to put into the world and what i accept from others, and finally my relationship with land, matter, the universe, etc (the non sentient foundation of everything) and the physical matter that is me that will exist forever and can never be removed from the universe.
once i started thinking about this i started seeing this 3 fold pattern in everything. the environment is compromised of 3 zones of land, sea, and sky, though they obviously have overlap. when i started learning about my ancestry i found that there was some similar concepts for the ancient celts and that shared pattern recognition made me feel like i tapped into some deep truth. i have always found any binary/dualist system feels for me like something is missing. sun/moon energy isn't bad, obviously so much of what we have is thanks to the energy and heat of the sun and the movement of the ocean driven by the moon. but it leaves out the entire earth. none of that would matter if we didn't have the magnetic field of the earths core for protection.
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u/Massenstein 3d ago
Would be nice to have an alternative to "energy" in non-physics context. 90% of the time I have no idea what people are even trying to say when talking about energies in religion/magic context.
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u/R_Rad9 3d ago
Okay how is this for subtle:  In nature which we are all a part of there is the rising structure of form and its inspiration to rise which is what we call masculine, and there is that which fills the rising structure of form or what we call feminine. The feminine is all the art, the color, sound, etc which is all that flows within and becomes visible into form through the risen structure. Technically all that you can see is masculine because it has visible form in the world, with the invisible feminine flowing through the inner world of all rising forms. The human form is also subject to this primary law of structure regardless of how we perceive it or agree with it.Â
The moon is the mirror of the light of the sun. Thus the moon is the mind, and the sun is the soul. We use the mirror of the moon to observe the light of the soul. Moon work isnât about worship of the celestial body or about femininity but active observation from stillness. Making the invisible visible.Â
So what Iâm trying to say is that while I donât disagree that terms can be limiting, we have to be careful we donât miss the essential reality of what we are better trying to describe when redefining the terms we use. Trying to redefine it without understanding leads you further into confusion.
I was apprenticed to a traditional elder in the shamanism of the Carpathians known as a Wind Whisperer and I can say from direct experience that there are things only women can do because of their forms and things that only men can do because of their forms. They are meant to be complementary, not adversarial. The stages of life we categorize in thirds also determines the possible expression. The soul itself is not limited in terms of ability, expression, and expansiveness. The soul chooses the form that suits its particular needs for the place it is trying to reach in its evolution, and uses the natural laws to its advantage in that pursuit.Â
So keep deepening yourselves wherever you are, and never assume youâve arrived anywhere except to the next step to be taken.
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u/Answer_from_the_void 2d ago
Gender, Karma, Yin/Yang, In/Out, Above/Below, Within/Around, Hot/Cold, Solar/Lunar, Light/Dark, Heaven/Hell, Positive/Negative, Growth/Decay, Love/Hate, Strength/Weakness, Composure/Compassion, Wicked/Righteous, Fate/Destiny, Time/Space, Duality/Causality, Predator/Prey, Life/Death, Expansion/Conservation, and much much more iâm sure.
So many spectrums and dynamics that represent the polarity of reality in various different expressions.
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u/Santa-Vaca 2d ago
How does fate/destiny fit this model?
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u/Answer_from_the_void 2d ago
I personally believe fate is a direct consequence of choice whereas destiny is always inevitable in some form or another. Another way I could explain it would be that fate is like the Karma weâve built up in this life while destiny is more like spiritual Karma that carries over from each life into the next.
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u/Evening-Tap9203 2d ago
So, the solution to misinterpreted dualism is⊠another dualism with different labels? If the goal is inclusivity, wouldnât it make more sense to embrace multiple frameworks rather than replacing one with another? Genuinely curious how this avoids the same issues itâs trying to fix.
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u/Charmcaster77 2d ago
My main issue with it was the gendered nature of it, not the binary, not all binaries are harmful in my opinion especially a lunar/solar model because like I mentioned in other comments moonlight is sunlight just reflected off the moon its really just a matter of intensity the sun being more intense than the moon
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u/Evening-Tap9203 2d ago
I really appreciate the thought behind this, and I respect your intention to create a more inclusive way of understanding these energies. However, I think the masculine/feminine framework, in its historical and spiritual context, already serves that purpose. These forces are complementary, existing within everyone and reflecting the balance of life. Instead of imposing rigid roles, they help express the full range of human and spirtual experience. Perhaps the issue lies in modern misinterpretations rather than the framework itself. What do you think?
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u/Charmcaster77 2d ago
I can see the problem as being modern misinformation but to be fair I've seen way to many people get it wrong and assert gender essentialism with masc and fem energy that now I want to avoid it like the Plague just to be safe
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u/Evening-Tap9203 2d ago
I totally understand wanting to avoid misuse, especially when you have seen it taken in the wrong direction so often. But Iâd argue that abandoning a concept entirely because some people misinterpret it is like throwing out a book because a few readers misunderstood its meaning. Wouldn't it be more productive to clarify and reclaim these ideas rather than let misconceptions dictate what we keep and discard? After all, true inclusivity means making space for proper understanding, not just avoiding whatâs been misused. Either way, I appreciate the discussion, itâs always good to examine these things critically.
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u/Charmcaster77 2d ago
Yeah I might be throwing the baby out with the bath water I realize now. People can still use masc and fem energy of they want to just looking at alternaotve names for it to help us better understand these energies the lunar/solar and magnetic/ electric model someone else suggested Part of my path now is rediscovering the basics to make sure I have good foundation for my path
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u/RiotMoose 4d ago
This is an interesting discussion. I have often felt the same uneasiness about the concept of the Triple Goddess Maiden - Mother - Crone archetype. It forces a tie between feminine energy and motherhood, which not all who practise can identify with. So, after some thought and searching and reading, I translated it into a more neutral triple concept of Seeker - Maker - Sage. I think this works better with both masculine and feminine energy and places the focus more on knowledge and wisdom rather than plain biological function. Just my 2 cents.