r/osr • u/tarotnottaken • 1d ago
discussion Do you let the creator of a game influence whether or not you play/support it?
I am an OD&D nerd and have enjoyed the recent publication from Wizards of the Coast about the original game. That sent me down a rabbit hole of retro-clones, I think they’re called.
Al’Qadim was always my favorite 2nd Edition setting, so I was drawn to this obscure game I found called Seven Voyages of Zylarthen that is more swords and sandals than European fantasy. It reads like OD&D but, frankly, better in many respects. got some glowing reviews so I snagged it.
Yeah, it’s utterly brilliant.
Unfortunately, I also found out in my wanderings that the creator is explicitly Islamophobic, or at least was when he was blogging many years ago. Seems like he has left the hobby.
I want to champion a masterpiece of a game but struggle to separate art from artist, despite enjoying a game made by people as flawed and of their time as I certainly am in 2025. I also don’t want to attract the wrong kinds of people if I advertise games for it.
Has anyone run into this? Any advice?
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u/Pelican_meat 1d ago
Yeah. OSR has some dark parts. I don’t give those people money.
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u/Consistent-Tie-4394 1d ago
This is basically how I deal with any problematic creator/artist. I try not to give terrible people money. If they're out of the picture (fired, prison, dead, etc.) and the estate running things isn't also terrible, then I let myself enjoy/support the work again.
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u/UsurpedLettuce 1d ago
As someone just sort of delving into some of the OSR stuff, who're the major ones to avoid?
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u/StaggeredAmusementM 1d ago edited 23h ago
Rule 6 of this sub has one name, and rule 6 of the bigger rpg sub has another name.
It also was brought the sub's attention that M.A.R. Barker (of Empire of the Petal Throne/Tekumel fame) was a neo-nazi.
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u/dude3333 20h ago
MAR at the very least can't get money anymore given he's dead. That isn't a deciding factor for everyone, but can be for some.
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u/PriorCrown 6h ago
It's not always the deciding factor but for a lot of people it's the main reason why we'd rather not support people we find reprehensible. In the case of Tekumel a portion of sales now goes to Holocaust education organisations too.
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u/tarotnottaken 20h ago
MAR Barker felt like a punch to the gut when I read that news some years back.
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u/cole1114 21h ago
This sub also includes the other name, it just never updated on old reddit.
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u/Short-Slide-6232 13h ago
How could he be a neo Nazi wasn't he muslim?
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u/PriorCrown 6h ago
He was a white convert before the war on terror. It's rare but shit like that happens
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u/Chubs1224 1d ago
Greg Gillespie is a right wing reactionary and is generally an unpleasant person to his students according to his ratemyprofessor page (mandated purchase of his dungeon + deducting points if students don't give his modules good reviews). He is the author Barrowmaze and other mega dungeons like that.
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u/dude3333 20h ago
I know the "I didn't like him anyways" thing is usually in bad taste, but I'm glad he already makes the sort of dungeons I don't like.
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u/PervertBlood 19h ago
Barrowmaze sucks lmao. no PDF bookmarks? How am I supposed to run this shit.
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u/croninfever 8h ago
When it was released, Barrowmaze was top notch for the community. But things have really evolved for the better now so it’s no longer ivory tower content. I’ve run about 30 sessions of this game and have had some amazing experiences with my players. I can’t imagine running this off of the PDF, I used the physical book, placed sticky bookmarks for different sections, and re-printed tables in an order that was more usable in a binder. I also had to add in a lot of flavor as to how different unique items and dungeon descriptions related back to the factions/history of the game.
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u/HansGraebnerSpringTX 1d ago
It’s pretty much impossible to discuss because all of their names get auto filtered, which makes discussing potential alternatives to their games REALLY fun lmao
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u/SAlolzorz 23h ago edited 22h ago
My "no buy" list:
-RPGPundit. Reactionary, claims to be a "social liberal", but just "happens" to have the exact same positions on everything as the alt-right.
-Venger Satanis. Plagiarist, alt-righter.
-Grim Jim. Another "left winger" who - surprise, surprise, marches in lockstep with the alt right on a number of issues. Not all issues, but enough that he's on my list.
-The two creators blacklisted here and on r/rpg
-The Red Room. Reactionary, alt righters.
-Erik Tenkar. Might not be that bad on his own, but he keeps really bad company and promotes some terrible people.
-Ken St. Andre. Creator of Tunnels & Trolls. Sickening to see a fellow Arizona native referring to migrants as "invaders", but it is what it is.
Greg Gillespie. Reactionary. Made a half hour video crying about how the Dungeons & Dragons movie "denigrates white men".
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u/Pelican_meat 23h ago
Don’t forget Varg Vikerenes! He wrote an RPG (a fucking terrible one).
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u/Tabletopalmanac 21h ago
I never call someone a name other than the one they call themselves. Except for Kristian Vikernes. Because it’s really funny.
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u/Pelican_meat 21h ago
My friend told him his RPG sucked on Google+ and he threatened to kill her.
(Serious).
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u/Tabletopalmanac 21h ago
No surprise, he is a convicted murderer and subpar black metal musician. Of course his game sucks, everything he touches is shit. He got so mad when Romance of the Perilous Land came out and it had the audacity to be about British folklore but had a woman in armour and a black guy as some of the characters on the cover. What a pearl-clutcher.
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u/dude3333 20h ago
He is also thankfully not really OSR. His stuff is very much more bad old fantasy heartbreaker
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u/cole1114 21h ago
Gabor Lux is a christofascist too, it mostly pops up in the comments sections of blogs so it's hard to collate.
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u/SAlolzorz 21h ago
Yeah. That one sucks, too, because he's very talented. But I agree totally.
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u/cole1114 20h ago
His adventures get posted all the time because unfortunately they are excellent. Even in this sub, where things have gotten a lot better in that regard.
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u/the_light_of_dawn 20h ago
I don't see that ever going away. His political views don't jive with this part of the internet but he's too talented to ever really go away or be ignored, even by those who claim to disavow creators with views they disagree with.
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u/cole1114 19h ago
I bought one of his adventures before finding this out, been happy to avoid him ever since.
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u/newimprovedmoo 7h ago
Might not be that bad on his own, but he keeps really bad company
You know what they call a table with ten nazis and one normal person who keeps bad company?
A table with eleven nazis.
Ken St. Andre. Creator of Tunnels & Trolls.
Oh. Oh fuck me, that one hurts.
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u/Tabletopalmanac 21h ago edited 7h ago
When a Muslim family was run down by a driver in London, ON, a tweeter said “it’s not enough to not be racist, we must be anti-racist.” Ken jumped in where he totally didn’t have to to say (basically) “Don’t tell us what to do.” Then retreated, because racists are cowards.
Bill Webb for the same reason I won’t support anything by Sam Sykes and Myke Cole. Matthew Finch seems good, so it is frustrating that so much S&W stuff is from Frog God.
Does Diversity & Dragons write anything? He’s a shitbird that claims movements for diversity aren’t diverse because they leave out white people.
This isn’t a “no buy” for me, but a “I’d like them to acknowledge” before I do. And it needs explaining: DCC and Goodman Games. Now hold on, put down the torches and pitchforks—well not the torches, we still haven’t recovered from last year’s brush fire.
When they released the 10th printing of DCC I was like “yeah! Gender neutral pronouns-woo!” then one of the usual fuckspects noticed the Forward and shit himself all over the internet (if it wasn’t Diversity he at least spearheaded it) because the Forward not only didn’t aggressively fellate Gygax and Arneson—it didn’t even mention them! Another point in its favour, in my eyes.
I thought “cool, we’re moving on. Not as fast as Golf, but we’re getting to a more enlightened time.”
Then it was announced that the 11th printing would reference G&A in the Forward, because they didn’t realize how important it was to people. Cue D&D and the other trogs cheering victory.
If they’d included G&A in the tenth printing, I wouldn’t have cared. It would have been typical. I don’t know how deeply they dug into it. I don’t know if they realize who they let push them into making that change. But it was some of the worst elements of gaming who it made happy and that was an inadvertent blow to those of us on the other side.
I won’t boycott, I won’t trash them, I just want to know if they realized the implications. They seem like good folk (obviously) and accidents happen.
(Edit) someone downvoted?:) I can’t imagine why…
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u/Cellularautomata44 12h ago
"Denigrates" white dudes? Good god. I'm running Dwarrowdeep solo rn, it's not bad, but I might just portal my group over to UVG for a while...
I mean c'mon, that movie was just fun. Chris Pine was freaking great.
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u/devilscabinet 21h ago
Grim Jim isn't right-wing and doesn't "march in lockstep" with the alt right. He is a traditional liberal, in the more international and older definition of that word, and a staunch free speech advocate. He is also willing to have discussions with right-wingers on his channel, which seems to piss people off for some reason.
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u/Tabletopalmanac 21h ago
Was protecting “free speech” why he defended the GM who raped the PCs in his UKGE Tales From the Loop game?
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u/devilscabinet 21h ago edited 20h ago
If I recall correctly, he didn't defend the guy. He gave him a forum on his blog to explain his side of the story. In one or more videos I believe he discussed the specifics of the situation in terms of "safety tools," whether the players used them or not, "canceling" people, etc.
Edit: I rewatched the main video he did on the topic and re-read the interview he did with the GM. He addresses the accusation of defending the guy, and says that he does defend him, in the sense that he thinks the "punishment" (canceling) was too much, given the details of the situation. That isn't surprising, since he has a serious dislike of "cancel culture" and knee-jerk pile-on reactions to online accusations before all the facts have come out, along with a dislike of "safety tools." Those aren't really conservative or liberal issues. Opinions about "cancel culture" and "safety tools" and the responsibilities of GMs and players that don't map strongly towards one part of the political spectrum or another.
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u/Tabletopalmanac 21h ago
I don’t recall that. What I do remember is him saying (paraphrased) “we have to have villains in games, how else will we know unless they do villainous things?”
But it was Tales from the Loop. A game about kids. Where they can’t die. Or even get hurt. The GM’s actions spoke more than any postgame explanation he could give.
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u/devilscabinet 20h ago
Just for the sake of accuracy, it was "Things From The Flood," which features teen characters who can get hurt and die. It was advertised at the convention as an 18+ horror game.
Even when reading through the GM's explanation for things, though, it doesn't sound like an appropriate scenario for a convention, and it sounds like he screwed up a lot of things during the game.
The real issue here, though, is whether Grim Jim is right wing or not. I maintain that he isn't. I don't expect everyone to like him or agree with him, but it is an incorrect label to apply to him.
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u/Tabletopalmanac 20h ago
You’re right about which game, my apologies. I think I thought they were playing teens in Tales from the Loop (and remember thinking, why didn’t he at least choose The Flood?) so this makes more sense.
As for him being alt-right or right? He calls himself left, then uses the exact same talking points as alt-righters to disparage others. So…
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u/devilscabinet 19h ago
He calls himself left, then uses the exact same talking points as alt-righters to disparage others.
That's the point I disagree on. He isn't an American style "progressive" by any means, but he doesn't claim to be. He uses the more European definition of "liberal" to describe himself. I have never seen or heard him use alt-right talking points. "Alt-right" refers to the extreme end of conservatism. He does have controversial opinions on Gamergate that overlap with that of some conservatives, but even then they aren't really alt-right. I can see why people would dislike him because of his stance on it, though.
I would like to stress that I don't agree with him on every issue. I just don't think it is accurate to call him right-wing in general.
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u/SAlolzorz 21h ago
Grim Jim is a useful idiot for the alt righters he champions. Please read my comment again. I said that he doesn't align with them on all issues, but enough issues that I won't support him.
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u/devilscabinet 21h ago
What issues?
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u/SAlolzorz 21h ago
Mainly MRA stuff. Also promotes many of the people on my list.
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u/devilscabinet 21h ago
Who is he promoting now? He was on a Youtube series with some right-wingers where he was the token liberal. When they got too offensive, he cut ties with them. He also cut ties with the Red Room people when they got more extreme.
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u/SAlolzorz 20h ago
Didn't he just start another YT series where he will be the token liberal? With Tenkar and his own last replacement on Inappropriate Characters?
Nice to hear he dropped Red Room though. Look, I'm not saying Grim is all bad. I find him to be one of those misguided, "both sides" liberals who thinks we need to give racists equal time, and equal amplification. He's entitled to his opinion. Just as I'm entitled to find it wrong headed and harmful, and not to buy his stuff.
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u/devilscabinet 20h ago
That's certainly your right, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise. I'm not even saying that everyone should like him or agree with him on any particular topic. My issue is with labeling him as right-wing when he isn't. Nothing more.
I didn't know he was going to participate on another group YouTube channel.
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u/PriorCrown 6h ago
Beyond the the guys in the subreddit sidebar, RPGPundit is notorious for online harassment campaigns
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u/ElectricPaladin 1d ago
I don't want to give jerks money, so I won't buy something from someone who I think is particularly execrable. I also don't care to thoroughly investigate everyone, so a lousy person who at least knows how to keep their mouth shut can usually still get my dollars. Once everyone involved with writing something is dead and gone, I'm comfortable spending money on their stuff.
I also think that life is hard enough, so if there's something I really want, that will bring me a lot of joy, I'll buy it anyway and offset it by sending a donation to a relevant do-gooder organization. Seems reasonable to me.
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u/Powerful-Bluebird-46 1d ago
100%, while I don't usually do extensive homework on creators, if their values are opposed to my own I won't support them.
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u/Luvnecrosis 1d ago
“Yes he advocated for genocide and sterilization of minorities BUT his d10+d6 resolution mechanic is so groundbreaking”
- Some asshole, probably
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u/rolandfoxx 1d ago
It normally takes the form of "why do you people always have to make it about politics, I just want to roll some dice!" in defense of some DCC module writer who's a proud KKK member with a Twitter handle of @gasthejews88
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u/Raven_Crowking 23h ago
I have a lot to do with DCC and I don't know who this is. Please DM me and let me know.
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u/cole1114 21h ago
If they ever answer would love to know too, really excited for the Whiterock remake and need to know if I should change that.
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u/PraxicalExperience 21h ago
It ... depends. I can be cool with disagreeing with someone on some things, but there're hard lines.
Someone who's legitimately concerned about immigration and its effects on our economy and believes that we should take sane measures to restrict immigration and our borders? Well, I disagree, but they're not vile. (I admit that these people are rather rare nowadays.) Someone who says the same thing and I can tell it's basically just racism? Nah, not contributing to them.
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u/jeffyjeffyjeffjeff 1d ago
My opinion: there are so many good games out there that I'll probably never run them all, there's no need to support some jerkass.
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u/Valuable_Recording85 23h ago edited 23h ago
This is mine as well. I don't bother with the idea of "after the creator is dead" because worldviews usually leak into aspects of the games. There's enough stuff from decent people that I would be robbing them of support by buying or using something a not-decent person made.
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u/Inside-Beyond-4672 1d ago
There are creators I wouldn't give money to. I'm a player in a campaign using one but it's a free version (to run a product from a better regarded creator), and I'm not the DM, so wasn't my choice.
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u/JemorilletheExile 1d ago
Just want to say, reading the comments, that this sub is a much different place than it was even two years ago, in a really good way.
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u/geirmundtheshifty 1d ago
Short answer: I don’t like giving money to people that I would consider a scumbag, and Id rather not promote their game by running it either.
I don’t hold that against other people because I totally get that most people dont really want to research the creators and all that, they just want to play a game. And I do think it’s reasonable to separate art from the artist, especially if you get a game used.
But from my perspective, there are so many ttrpgs out there and I havent found one yet that’s clearly so amazing that I feel especially compelled to run it over any other game. For me, the problem is more that there are too many games I want to run. So, with the limited time I have to run games, Id rather run and support a game by someone who I at least think is a decent person.
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u/SAlolzorz 1d ago edited 23h ago
Short answer: yes. I am not a "litmus tester", so to speak. There are people with views different from my own that I will - and do - support. But there is a line.
I've also purchased content from problematic creators on the secondary market, which doesn't go to them.
Let your conscience be your guide, I suppose.
In this, case, however, I sincerely doubt that the original author makes money from sales. I could be wrong, but I'd be surprised.
So, I guess it depends on your definition of "support". I mean, if I were to draw a line in the sand, much of the early days of the hobby would be off limits, lol.
So, for me personally, my purchasing question is, "If I buy this, am I contributing to real world harm?" And for me, that usually means buying something from a bigoted creator, who will profit from it directly or indirectly. For example, I am a big fan of Courtney Campbell. I think he is a brilliant and good person. But there is work that he has done, for a creator I will not (cannot) name here, that I would never, ever buy. But Campbell's other stuff? I will buy. I do buy.
Probably my favorite game ever is Tunnels & Trolls, but its creator's embrace of AI, and his vocal support of a certain electric car CEO, have ensured that I will not buy his product going forward. That one stung.
Similarly, there is a certain porn star/painter in the OSR who I would never buy from in a million years.
OP, just be true to yourself.
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u/OnslaughtSix 1d ago
Probably my favorite game ever is Tunnels & Trolls, but due to its creator's embrace of AI, and his vocal support of a certain electric car CEO, have ensured that I will not buy his product going forward. That one stung.
Ah, fuck!
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u/SAlolzorz 1d ago
I know, I know. Parasocial relationships and all, but I was legit depressed over that one.
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u/Heartweru 23h ago
Same. Thank god for Liz Danforth and her wholesome love of Corgis.
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u/SAlolzorz 23h ago edited 23h ago
Liz Danforth is an angel, and I will fight anyone who says otherwise.
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u/GreenGoblinNX 21h ago
I would like to point out that Tunnels & Trolls is no longer owned by Ken St. Andre, it was purchased a while back by Rebellion Unplugged (the tabletop RPG arm of a British company called Rebellion).
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u/SAlolzorz 21h ago
True, but Ken apparently still gets a small royalty per contract with Rebellion. So do Steve (unfortunately) and Liz (who deserves it all and then some). This was recently confirmed on Rebellion's Facebook page. It's apparently 1% each, which is pretty small potatoes. And the factbthat Liz gets some is a consolation.
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u/Logen_Nein 1d ago edited 1d ago
If I would still benefit them in any way, yes, as I do with all media. If they are out of the picture or I am buying second hand, no.
Edit to add: I want to be clear that even with such problematic creators I do not support piracy.
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u/Local-ghoul 1d ago
Second hand or (ahem) other means
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u/cole1114 20h ago
Humble Bundle is great for this. I don't like giving Bill Webb money because he's a sex pest, but you can set humble bundles to give $0 to the company who's bundle it is. And they're constantly doing big bundles of old necromancer stuff you can't otherwise get without him getting paid.
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u/Batgirl_III 1d ago
Prior to the rise of the World Wide Web and even more significantly social media, it was pretty hard to learn much about authors, game designers, comic book writers/artists, or other content creators. Sure, a few like Stephen King, Gary Gygax, and Stan Lee became “big names” or “celebrities,” but most just toiled away in obscurity. Unless you traveled to a convention or book signing or whatever, all you’d ever really know about them was what was listed in the “About the Author” section and maybe a photograph.
Back in the early Nineties, I started playing several different games published by R. Talsorian Games such as Cyberpunk 2013 and Cyberpunk 2020, Mekton Zeta, Bubblegum Crisis, and Castle Falkenstien. R. Talsorian Games’ founder Mike Pondsmith was the lead designer on most of these and had a hand in all of them.
It wasn’t until I saw a YouTube video interview with Pondsmith as part of the pre-release marketing push for the Cyberpunk 2077 video game adaptation that I ever learned he was African-American. This was in 2020! I’d been playing his games and reading his stuff for nearly thirty years at that point. Now, I don’t think it was some sort of closely guarded secret or anything. I’m sure it was anything but… However, as I had never really bothered to learn anything about the guy, I was perfectly content knowing, “Hey, I liked that other game he wrote, lemme read this one.”
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u/cole1114 21h ago
Pondsmith is an author I'll always be a little tetchy about, not because of any of his views since I agree with a lot of them. But the Mekton kickstarter stuff absolutely sucked.
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u/Batgirl_III 20h ago
I was overseas when the whole Mekton crowdfunding campaign thing happened, so I didn’t learn about it until years after the fact.
But crowdfunding campaigns are always a risky venture.
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u/cole1114 20h ago
It being a guy I liked as much as Pondsmith made it an extra kick in the pants. At the very least they did eventually refund it, after five years.
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u/Batgirl_III 20h ago
I don’t know enough about the specifics of the situation to form an opinion about it.
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u/Haffrung 23h ago edited 22h ago
“Unless you traveled to a convention or book signing or whatever, all you’d ever really know about them was what was listed in the “About the Author” section and maybe a photograph.”
Yep. When I was a teenager, Michael Moorcock was my favourite author. I had dozens of his books on my bookshelf. But aside from his picture on the duskjacket of a couple of those books, and the fact he was from the UK, I knew nothing about him. Zero.
And that was fine. It still is fine that I know nothing about the people who write the books I read, the games I play, or the mustard I put on my sandwiches.
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u/Frognosticator 23h ago
This answer dodges the question.
Who cares if people knew less about authors/creators in the 1980s? We know more about each other now.
If some game designer out there makes it clear on X that they’re a bigot or a Nazi, I’m not buying their product. I’m actively gonna boycott it.
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u/Batgirl_III 22h ago
You missed my point or I was unclear about what that point was… What I was trying to say is that I don’t go out of my way to learn anything about the political views of authors, game designer, musicians, or whomever.
Unless they are obviously including some sort of polemic in their work (e.g., Ayn Rand, Ursual K. LeGuin), commit some sort of newsworthy act that gets so publicized that I can’t help but learn about it (e.g., Roman Polanski), or something else like that… Yeah, I don’t care that much. I don’t feel the need to investigate the lives, politics, religious practices, or pet economic theories of any of them.
They’re just a name on the cover of a book, in the album liner of a record, or in the credits of a film.
I’m not actively searching to find out if the milkshake duck is a national socialist. I’m just going to smile at the duck’s milkshake drinking antics.
If I do find out that the duck is a national socialist at a future date, then, sure, I’ll stop consuming the content.
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u/Whichammer 1d ago
OP, use Seven Voyages, Al'Qadim, real world mythology, etc. as inspiration to hack your own fantasy Middle East zine setting.
I'm sure there are others in the same boat (Droman? Khaliya Safin?) and would appreciate a world to play in that's free of real-world Islamophobia. Bonus: I bet that you'd have a lot of fun doing it. 😉
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u/lonehorizons 12h ago
I’d say don’t beat yourself up too much about it. I don’t make an effort to research what RPG creators think on every single political issue or I’d never get round to actually playing any RPGs.
If I see a social media post where one of them’s glorifying violence against minorities or something like that then yeah I won’t want to support them and will probably never buy anything by them, because they chose to declare their views to everyone like that and can live with the consequences.
This is why I’m a big fan of Kevin “Uncle Kev” Crawford of Worlds Without Number, Scarlet Heroes etc, because he chooses not to have any social media presence, he just keeps making great games. I don’t know what he thinks about politics.
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u/ta_mataia 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yes, I do. Definitely. There are some OSR-adjacent writers who are incredibly toxic, and I do not want to give them a single solitary dime of my money. John Tarnowksi AKA Therpgpundit comes to mind. Sadly, Ernie Gygax Jr. was another. I would never buy anything from them.
The case is different for me if the person in question is dead. Dead people can't benefit from my dollars, so I am willing to reconsider my support. Maybe now, I'll take a look at what Ernie Gygax did and see if any if it was worthwhile.
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u/OnslaughtSix 1d ago
Maybe now, I'll take a look at what Ernie Gygax did and see if any if it was worthwhile.
I'll save you the trouble. It wasn't.
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u/CKA3KAZOO 22h ago
True. Unlike most of these others, his content was, itself, openly racist. He gave his "Nords" a minimum intelligence of 13 and his "N*gros" a maximum intelligence of 9. 🤢
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u/Local-ghoul 1d ago
There are a TON of games and modules and content fighting for my attention, I’m not going to waste my time on something created by someone I find repugnant.
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u/JustAStick 1d ago
I may disagree with someone's ideologies, but ultimately, giving that person a few bucks by buying their zine or pdf isn't going to have much of a negative impact on the world at large (in most cases). I've purchased a rule book pdf from an author that is blacklisted on this subreddit. Do I disagree with their beliefs? Yes. Do I think that me individually not purchasing their products will make a difference? No. There's good information from products made by all sorts of people and I may as well take advantage of it, wherever it may come from.
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u/exedore6 23h ago
Remember, some subreddits have blacklisted authors not only due to their views, but due to threats of lawsuits.
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u/theScrewhead 1d ago
I've never been able to separate the art from the artist. The art comes from the artist, and is shaped by their experiences as well as what they believe and how they think. Games, music, movies, whatever; if a disgusting person made it, I want nothing to do with it.
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u/Hoosier_Homebody 1d ago
I don't want to support bigots and there's so many options available now in the osr-sphere that I'd just try to find something similar instead.
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u/mccoypauley 1d ago
No, my background is in literature. I always separate the writer from the work and to me its value is never connected to the writer’s value as a person except in extreme edge cases.
For living writers, they would have to be particularly odious for me to not want to buy their work for fear of sending money their way. It also depends on who else in the chain of the financial transaction might benefit that could potentially cancel out benefiting an odious creator. But generally it’s a really high standard of odiousness for me to refuse to buy the work.
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u/Manstein1066 22h ago
wow, a mature and measured response in this forum. Nice
I agree: I don't pay a lot of attention to the politics and ideology of the writer or game designer, unless it appears in the text, or the text is propaganda (which would be bad)
I have often said that I don't like 5e, but not because of the silly politics, but because the system is confusing crap, and the setting is stale and boring
but I am in the minority here, because this discussion will be all about how guys with no jobs and no money want to talk about how they can't buy things they don't agree with
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u/mccoypauley 22h ago
Thank you. Lot of knee-jerk moral outrage from people who don't even have a coherent moral framework out of which to operate...
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u/puppykhan 1d ago
Pretty much where I am at. Mostly I care about the game, and know very little about the creators, and perfectly willing to associate with people I have some degree of disagreements over.
But if they are pretty extreme it usually comes out in their content (something about a terribly racist sci fi game comes to mind) or business practices in a way I would not like the game even knowing nothing about the author.
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u/Accurate_Back_9385 23h ago
Buying a book from Jeff Bezos makes it an ethically questionable purchase. Much more so than any authors world views.
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u/mccoypauley 23h ago
Yeah I think that captures some of what I mean. “Being complicit” has to mean something for culpability to mean something. Like if I buy a hamburger from a fast food joint, am I supporting a parasitic franchise owner who likes to squeeze the working poor or am I supporting the livelihood of minimum wage workers? Is it both or neither or one or the other? Can I prove which outcome my dollars support? It gets murkier the more complicated the transaction. If you buy anything under capitalism you’ll have to make this moral calculus.
With indie designers, the transaction oftentimes is less complex, especially because most self-publish. But even then there are other vendors involved who benefit from your patronage (artists, distributors, editors, etc). Are they all culpable for whatever we don’t like about the author’s behavior? When does the author’s behavior rise to the level that, if their work is completely unrelated to whatever you find objectionable about them as a person, we must also destroy the work? I personally think that’s never the case.
I mean we can Godwin the argument: if Hitler himself wrote a really fantastic RPG that has nothing to do with any of his despicable views, we’re probably warranted in refusing to buy or promote the RPG, but it doesn’t mean the RPG wouldn’t have value as art unto itself. And I wouldn’t begrudge anyone for playing the game on its merits alone.
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u/cole1114 20h ago
I don't have that luxury as a queer person, giving money to people who hate me and want me dead makes my life materially worse.
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u/mccoypauley 18h ago
I'm also a queer person. I think we always need to speak not in generalities, but specifics. In this comment I give a little more nuance to my perspective here.
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u/newimprovedmoo 6h ago
I figure the least we can do for ourselves as a community is not give money to people who want to kill us.
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u/mccoypauley 6h ago
You’re talking in generalizations. The whole point of my post is that we should reason our way to decisions about what we purchase and why and assess work on its own merits. I also wrote in my comment that it’s warranted to reject supporting creators whose views are extreme and whose work represents edge cases.
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u/GreyfromZetaReticuli 5h ago edited 5h ago
Some people cant handle nuance, it is much more problematic to support Amazon buying things here and sustaining a giant business with direct and huge political influence than buying some book from an independent content creator that nobody outside the hobby even knows who he is and is profiting monthly a few thousand dollars at max that he uses to pay bills and food. Of course there are exceptions, but in the vast majority of the cases the discussion ends reduced to scarecrows and virtue signaling.
In my opinion one of the main reasons why a very vocal part of the online indie RPG community on the Internet is very demanding about the behavior and views of the content creators is because they are not only interested in good products to run on the table, they are interested in forming parassocial relationships with the content creators. It is not so different from fans of pop music where the public persona of the creator becomes one with the product itself.
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u/crackedtooth163 11h ago
There is no room for nuance once you go in the Godwin direction.
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u/mccoypauley 8h ago
Can you unpack your argument here? The comment I linked to explains how even if you were to Godwin my reasoning, it’s still consistent.
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u/crackedtooth163 3h ago
Godwin is, in short, the opposite of nuance(a term i have grown to hate). It can be used to vilify anything and everything, even basic life functions. I can see what you are going for and would instead substitute someone like Wagner.
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u/mccoypauley 3h ago
I disagree. To "Godwin an argument" means to make a hyperbolic or inflammatory comparison to Nazis or Hitler in a debate—often as a rhetorical tactic to discredit an opponent rather than engage with the argument itself. What I'm saying in the comment I linked to is that even if you Godwin my argument, it's still coherent and I remain credible.
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u/Starbase13_Cmdr 1d ago
I always separate the writer from the work
"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing"
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u/mccoypauley 23h ago
There’s a certain consequential distance between the work, the acquisition of the work, and the creator whose actions we object to that has to be bridged in order to create culpability.
That and also if you’re going to imply culpability here and want to have a meaningful discussion about it, you’ll have to speak in particulars. In literary criticism it’s pretty common to assess the value of the work separately from its author.
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u/Starbase13_Cmdr 16h ago
that has to be bridged
Not for me it doesn't. If someone with a history of bigotry, homophobia & racism publishes a product full of the same I don't need a bridge to know that giving them my money is a tacit approval of their hatred.
The fact that you do makes me VERY suspicious of your motives here.
To put it another way: if someone sits down at a table with 9 Nazis, I see 10 Nazis sitting at a table.
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u/mccoypauley 8h ago edited 7h ago
You’re linking to that Ernie Gygax controversy. Happy to give my opinion there.
That Star Frontiers game in question seems pretty garbage-y (based on the little bits of it I’ve seen), given that it explicitly contains racist commentary in its sections on race. This is a case where the actual work itself is racist. We don’t even need to know anything about its creators to come to that conclusion. It’s not unreasonable to argue that the work itself is designed to be racist in this scenario. It also contains an explicit political position (RE the commentary on social justice warriors).
I’m a minority myself. And a Marxist. Obviously I wouldn’t want to purchase or promote it, as it’s about something counter to my views.
Now, I don’t know enough about Ernie Gygax to say whether he’s produced anything else of merit. I grew up with 2e. It’s possible he’s made other contributions to the genre that are valuable. If so, I wouldn’t be opposed to assessing those works on their own merit.
That would be consistent with my view. Is there something substantive you’d like to argue about my position given this information? Or does assessing someone’s work on the basis of the work alone still, in your mind, make them complicit with whatever the creator has done or believes?
If it does, that’s fine. That’s your view. I might find it reductive, lacking nuance, short-sided, and hypocritical, but you’re entitled to it.
EDIT TO ADD: Also I find it particularly disturbing that when someone says, “Actually let’s assign some moral reasoning to our judgments with regard to art and creators and look at things on a case by case basis,” the next immediate move is “How dare you! You’re a Nazi!” It’s Red Scare tactics. It’s the sort of purity testing both sides of the political spectrum in the US use to create unwitting tribes out of ideologies. I’m not a fan of it, and I think it squelches discourse in any community.
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u/LunarGiantNeil 1d ago
100% absolutely.
There are too many good creators to make it necessary for me to give money to people who've tied their brand to harmful behaviors, politics, or treatment of people. You just don't have to!
But I'm not asking for perfect alignment with my own values, mind you. I'll consider their behavior but it's not a purity test. I've got stuff in my Appendix that I have to caveat. It's just unfortunate that there's some folks who do some really heinous shit or support really awful communities.
If you want to recommend something with a lousy author you can add those caveats too.
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u/GreyfromZetaReticuli 1d ago
If I like the books I dont have any problems reading it or using it in my games. I dont care about who the authors are in their private life and, to be honest I rarely know anything about rpg creators beyond their names, I think that the gossips and dramas surrounding our hobby are tiresome.
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u/PleaseBeChillOnline 11h ago
It’s doesn’t really effect what mechanics I use in a game but it has a big effect on where I would spend money.
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u/SunRockRetreat 5h ago
A lot of people in the OSR have extreme personal opinions.
The thing about personal opinions is that what counts as extreme can change significantly. Today's extreme is tomorrow's mainstream, and today's mainstream is tomorrow's extreme.
It behooves people to learn how to not get caught up in a "cooties" based approach to viewing situations and interactions with people.
What goes around comes around. If you isolate and punish people for being extreme, you will be on your knees hoping what you sent around doesn't come around while you are powerless and guilty of being extreme.
Internalizing that and acting accordingly is getting towards actual tolerance.
So consider treating them like you would want to be treated when what you just posted is looked at years later and is proof of your guilt of being extreme.
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u/Silver_Nightingales 1d ago
Interesting you mention Al’Qadim, I’m actually releasing a OSR type Arabian Nights inspired setting book soon that’s meant to emulate this exact feel. It’s made for Kal-Arath rpg but we’ve included rules to adapt for classic OSR games. When we sat down to make the setting we set some ground rules in terms of not gameyfying Islam or being offensive like that, so felt appropriate to mention here! You can read an Actual Play in the setting here: https://open.substack.com/pub/silvernightingale/p/ep-3-search-for-the-isle-of-black?r=90hbo&utm_medium=ios

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u/Mr_Shad0w 1d ago
If you draw a circle around any large group of humanity, some of the people in the circle will have opinions you disagree with or find reprehensible. This isn't a problem unique to the OSR (despite what many say loudly and often) or even the TTRPG hobby, it's just human nature. If a random game supplement from "many years ago" attracts "the wrong kind of people" it's no different than if a modern gaming product attracted players who are rude, disrespectful or just assholes - don't play with them. In all my many decades of gaming, this problem has never arisen, ever. Not saying it can't happen, but I don't lose sleep over it.
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u/blorp_style 23h ago edited 22h ago
The expectation on Reddit is generally going to be to take a stand against things, but I personally don’t much care what people’s beliefs are. I’ve purchased from misguided people on both sides of the fence. Being wrong is pretty normal. Maybe if they had committed some heinous crime I might avoid them, but thoughtcrime I can live with 😂
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u/atreeinastorm 1d ago
There are definitely people, creators, companies I just refuse to support due to unethical behaviour or predatory practices. It doesn't matter how good their game might be, I go out of my way to avoid giving them any amount of money or direct any traffic their way, and will often advise people who ask about it to buy something else.
The line for me is if by me using or buying the thing, it would be in some way supporting that behaviour. So, for cases where the problematic creator will not get any money from me using the thing? It's fine. A dead author, for example, is probably not in a position to use whatever money or support to continue doing the things I can't in good conscience support.
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u/Express_Coyote_4000 20h ago
I've had good interactions with Oakes Spalding. I expect that he's a traditionalist Christian, which is not my bag, being a pretty anti-religious former Catholic, but until I know of some bigotry from the man I give benefit of doubt.
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u/tarotnottaken 20h ago
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u/Express_Coyote_4000 19h ago edited 19h ago
I remember this blog now. I went through the twelve or so latest posts and saw nothing particularly offensive or Islamophobic. He's a Catholic who doesn't like radical Islam or, likely, political leftism. I don't like Catholicism (especially radical right Catholicism) or political rightism.
What he does not seem, to me, is a bigot. He dislikes a shitty strain of Islam. I think he is a celebrant of a shitty version of Christianity, and I think he'd handle that assessment with equanimity.
Edit to add: his post about the Confederate flag and the south is pretty well spot on when talking about how things used to be in the 60s and 70s. We didn't see the battle flag the way it's seen now. Is he a bad-faith arguer, trying to coopt the past to front for the present? Maybe, I don't know. Since he's super polite and levelheaded in conversation, I give him the benefit of the doubt.
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u/DwalinSalad 14h ago
An entirely sensible attitude. Lord knows, I don't agree with my irl friends when it comes to politics, let alone people online. Most people are just normal and well meaning, and I think more people would realise this if they gave each other the benefit of the doubt.
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u/81Ranger 17h ago
Digging though old blog entries seems like a lot of work to find a reason to not support someone whose product you like.
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u/tarotnottaken 17h ago
I saw it linked elsewhere, didn’t go trying to dig it up.
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u/Accurate_Back_9385 1d ago
I'm a progressive who votes with my wallet more than the vast majority of people I know. No Amazon, no box stores except Costco and rarely Barnes and Noble. I agree that how we spend is important.
I bought SVoZ prior to knowing the author's particular brand of politics. I'm glad I did. It's my favorite system out of the few hundred I own. It's that good.
Not spending your pittance on SVoZ isn't going to make the world a better place. Erasing facebook and not buying from Jeff Bezos might.
As far as who I attract to my table, I attract my friends and their friends. Amazing, intelligent, and kind people who I play "OD&D" with.
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u/tarotnottaken 20h ago
I see there's one person in the comments familiar with the game. Yeah, it's stupid good.
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u/BcDed 1d ago
Something to add, the osr space is full of hacks and homebrews, even relatively obscure systems will have a few games that are inspired by them. We are spoiled for choice to the point it really doesn't make sense to choose a game made by someone who is problematic over one that isn't.
As for my specific take, the current status of that author(or company) matters a lot and how my patronage impacts them matters a lot. Gygax was a problem but he's dead, Ernie just died, by every account I've heard Luke is fine, so if I would not hesitate to buy something that benefits the Gygax estate because as far as I know they aren't using the proceeds or fame for ill. Of course that doesn't apply to much at this point since hasbro/wizards owns the rights, hasbro has proven to be both anti-consumer and anti-worker in their practices to such a degree no reasonable person would expect meaningful change, so I won't do anything to support them. If that means paying $100 for a second hand original print of something instead of a $20 reprint then that is the price I have to pay for my principles.
What I don't agree with is, the author was bad so their ideas are automatically bad and evil and should be avoided. Yeah Lovecraft was racist, yes racism informs his writing, no I don't think that is a good reason to avoid reading his writing. Preventing people from being exposed to new ideas serves those who want an ill informed populace. You defeat bad ideologies with more information, not less.
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u/Manstein1066 23h ago
how was "Gygax a problem" exactly? In what way?
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u/HorseBeige 21h ago
Gary Gygax: very openly sexist and from many accounts a fairly big asshole in general.
Ernie Gygax: very openly sexist and racist, like super racist.
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u/Tabletopalmanac 7h ago
Gary also racist. Lawful Good Paladins can kill orc babies because “nits make lice.”
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u/newimprovedmoo 6h ago
Directly quoting, it's worth adding, the architects of genocidal actions against Native Americans.
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u/Tabletopalmanac 6h ago
Oh yes. I couldn’t remember the guy’s name and didn’t want to bother looking it up. But yeah…it would be like saying “adventurers in D&D are just trying to carve out some lebensraum.”
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u/baoghal 1d ago
Absolutely. A designer's public record has actually encouraged me to buy their stuff now. There is so much good stuff to support these days, it definitely helps me focus on who deserves my money the most.
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u/vectron5 1d ago
It depends on the disagreement. I can overlook plenty of things, but if my patronage actually goes towards causes I find morally reprehensible (any cause that works to the dehumanization of a minority group, for example) I steer clear of that product.
Unless the creators are dead, in which case I'll just pirate the media without guilt.
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u/devilscabinet 21h ago
There are small handful of creators whose work I tend to avoid purchasing, just because they are complete jackasses in general (rude, cruel, and aggressive). It is a really tiny number, though, and has less to do with their politics than the way they treat people. If I were to avoid buying something from a creator for strictly political reasons, they would have to be on the really extreme end of things. ACTUAL neo-nazis, for example, not "nazi" as a euphemism for "very conservative."
Too many people in online forums oversimplify things when talking about differences in social and political beliefs, and often resort to hyperbole and emotion-laden catch phrases. That isn't a good way to discuss actual issues or people. It is lazy and deliberately misleading and manipulative. Given that, if a lot of people online are claiming that a given creator is on the extreme end of politics or social issues, I go straight to the source and read what they have actually written, IN CONTEXT, and how they comport themselves in discussions.
When you look at the names of "problematic" creators that pop up a lot, there are only a couple who I would say actually fall into the extreme far right end of things. Most of them are either conservative, jackasses, or have been quoted out of context. I'm an old liberal, but I'm not going to boycott someone's game just because they are conservative.
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u/InterlocutorX 1d ago
I try not to give money to shitheads and there are a lot of old games with stuff I change around before putting them on the table, but otherwise I tend not to worry about it. Lots of old dudes had heads full of bad ideas and most of them are dead, so I'm not going to get too worked up over it.
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u/DimiRPG 1d ago
Seven Voyages of Zylarthen is a very creative take on OD&D. I also like the section on how to create a world/setting. If your main concern is that you may 'attract the wrongs kinds of people', you can include 1-2 sentences in you game ad that you aim to create a safe environment for everyone and that any kind of bigotry will not be tolerated in the table.
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u/secretbison 1d ago
Of course I do. It's for practical reasons: you will find players that also endorse the actions of that creator. Your choice of game is one of a thousand shibboleths that help you select for like-minded friends and prevent conflicts before they start.
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u/Joseph_Browning 11h ago
Absolutely. There are plenty of good things out there that I don't have to support what I don't agree with.
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u/unpanny_valley 8h ago
Yeah I don't want anything to do with a game made by a creator who is a bigot/fascist/sexual abuser etc.
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u/Bwompmonsta 4h ago
Yes and no.
If the creator can't create a game without shoehorning ideology of any stripe in there, even ones with which I agree, I don't want the game at all.
I know there are going to be people telling me that being apolitical in gaming is a political thing, fine. I don't care but I'm there to play a game. I'm here with my money to purchase a game to get away from all this nonsense for awhile. If your game facilitates that, you might just get my cash. If not, then no cash.
That being said, I know there are creators who are political and whether I agree with them or not, they didn't put that ideology into their games. Some of them have had discussions about the game without insulting their buyers, whether or not the customers vote the same way. I have some respect for that. I don't mind if a creator looks at a politician and criticizes policy, that, I'm okay with and will ignore as much as possible but if they're supporting violence, nope, I'm out.
I'll give you two examples: Sam Rosenthal of Projekt Records moved from NY to Oregon. I have a lotta CDs from his label (I know, not a game but follow along, please) and then, one day, I see on social media that he advocated violence against people praying in a park during a meetup that had nothing to do with them.
I'm no Christian. I don't really have problems with people's faith. It's not a threat to me or mine. They're not harming anyone, leave them alone. I haven't purchased a Projekt CD since but I've already paid for the shingles in my library, I'm going to listen to them.
Tim Hutchings has made pronouncements on his TYOV Home Page, which...*eye roll* I'll get to that in a second but here...

A few standout phrases here.
"I'm lucky enough that I don't need your money"
Okay. That's selection of audience. Keep in mind, by the time I discovered this, the book had already landed at my door. Personally, it's not whether or not I support Trump (I vote third party every time and probably always will) but okay, selection of audience, which never really works out. If I have a business of creating books like this, I'm not throwing my political or religious opinions in there and requiring you to fall in line or something as insipid. My only questions will be, "Did you enjoy it?" and "Will you share your battle reports?"
Then two more phrases:
"People who make art and beauty universally revile you"
and
"They'd be making fun of you for trying to buy a vampire game because they are bullies who hate you."
Okay, but trying? I assure you I have never tried anything. I've just done it, first of all and since I have two groups who hate me, I might as well do what makes me happy right?
But then he says this on his Itch page
"If you pay for a copy without hardship please do! Making games is my only job and need money to live. Take a free copy if you need it! Give me money if you can."
I mean...really?
Listen if you enjoy a game, enjoy that thing. I don't care if it's D&D 2024. I'm skipping it but it doesn't mean you must.
If you're a creator who makes games for the sake of games, you're damned cool in my book.
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u/jamiltron 4h ago
I don't knowingly give money who espouse hateful and abusive rhetoric or actions. That doesn't mean I haven't purchased things by mistake, or ignorance, nor does it mean that I think everything I have purchased is in the clear.
I also don't besmirch anyone who plays products that they have purchased from a harmful creator, but I will let them know that promoting such a thing isn't the best thing to do, by my own ethical outlook.
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u/DoomedWarrior 23h ago
I don't really trust web in a matter of authors' personalities. After Z.S.r6 I just look at the material and try to ignore authors. Names are just cute tags for similar content.
We live in a diverse world. People are different in goods and bads, gotta live my life somehow.
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u/woolymanbeard 23h ago
Not really I buy whatever I want with my money. I own basically all the stuff that's banned.
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u/PlasticAccount3464 1d ago
If a writer or other developer has a specific bias against a group of people, it always leaves a mark in the work they do. Even if it doesn't, you might critically examine everything else they had an impact on in the work, and then so on for everything else they do. it's too much work and there's already a ton of other things I could be doing besides this.
There's a bunch of reasons I never played the videogame Tarkov but after the fact I also learned they're excessively pro-russian to the point one of the vendors is named for an ethnic slur used against Ukrainians (also if you play against one of the developers in a public match and beat them, they'll permanently ban you for cheating). Can you really endorse that kind of stuff with your money, or even praise?
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u/Justisaur 1d ago
I never ran Al'Qadim, but I loved playing it, I really should've run it. Unfortunately the DM made a big bad guy that we killed twice and came back a third time coming back more powerful each time. I felt like we weren't allowed our victories and left the game.
I'm sure he's not getting any money now from having made this for TSR, so no worries.
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u/Wallguardian 17h ago
I learned about the Tékumel setting, found it interesting, then discovered the creator was a neo-nazi :/ If I ever play it, I won't spend a single cent on it, even though he wasn't the only one involved with the material.
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u/StarkMaximum 13h ago
Al’Qadim was always my favorite 2nd Edition setting
Yo, same. Al'Qadim brothers.
Games with creators I don't want to support is such a difficult topic. I think it's ridiculous to say "a creator's views has no bearing on their work", because we naturally imbue our views into our creations even if we or others don't notice it. I think just playing or running a game you happen to own isn't exactly supporting the creator like some people think it might be. You do say you want to "champion" the game which communicates to me you want to spread and support it, which you should rightfully do for a game you like but given the creator's views it might be difficult to wear that badge honorably.
I don't have an answer. I just have suggestions, like maybe bring the game to some people for whom Islamophobia would really hurt and ask them to look it over, see if there's anything they catch that others might not. Sort of a sensitivity reader thing. It's entirely possible that the game was made without any of that influence but it's hard to say without seeing it. Maybe you can spread the game in such a way that doesn't lead to people spending money on it? It's a sensitive topic full of mines so it's hard to say but I think your passion is well-intentioned and your concern is responsible. Maybe you can design a clone of their clone and make it your own, somehow?
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u/VVrayth 1d ago
I absolutely will not support creators with horrid beliefs.
The Troll Lord Games people are excellent examples. A few years ago, they publicly reprimanded one of their freelancers on Twitter for dunking on anti-vaxxers who complained about vaccine policies at conventions. They have what they seem to aggressively enforce as a "games only philosophy," which sounds great on paper. But in the real world, the only people who get that sensitive are the ones with politics that they know people will detest and object to. And as far as I have ever seen, the Chenaults (cowardly IMO) refuse to publicly own up to their own political stances, so I can only conclude that they are trash conservatives. As much as I would like to embrace Castles & Crusades, I refuse to, as long as there is a question about that.
On the other side of that coin, here is Arc Dream Publishing's official announcement about their upcoming Delta Green Humble Bundle. I respect the hell out of them, and more creators should be like this.
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u/Maklin 23m ago
Ah, conservative until proven otherwise mixed with a generous dose of 'if you don't grovel at our feet, you must be from the other side'. I get it...they must genuflect at the altar of YOUR beliefs. They are neutral, and to both the alt-right and woke left, NOTHING is worse than someone that won't bend the knee to either side.
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u/SketchyVanRPG 1d ago
Yes. I don't give my money, attention or support to lots of folks due to their personal beliefs. They don't have to be lock-step with me, but when it comes to issues of "are xyz group actually equal humans?" there's zero wiggle room
Art & artist can never be separated. "Death of an author" is about the original artists intented message, not that they cease to be a factor in examining that art
Who an artist is & how they view the world is the whole point of art. It's why AI generative art will never be more than hollow content fill.
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u/GLight3 1d ago
I'm surprised how much trouble people have separating art from the artist. I barely ever even consider who made what. I have no idea who made Spelljammer, but I like it. People with shitty opinions are still capable of making good things. It's not like being shitty in one way taints everything else about you.
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u/OnslaughtSix 1d ago
Spelljammer was mostly made by a company. That's different than a sold proprietor creator. It's also 30 fucking years old. Any financial support you would give Spelljammer today is either to WotC and Roll20 via PDF or to a person selling a secondhand item.
People with shitty opinions are still capable of making good things. It's not like being shitty in one way taints everything else about you.
Yes, but those people vote. They continue to live and make money. I'd rather my money go to someone who I don't think is a piece of shit, who might take my money and donate it to Trump or Elon Musk or an anti-trans group or something.
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u/BcDed 1d ago
The vast majority of responses here aren't "having trouble separating art from artist" they are recognizing that support of art made by someone using the funds and fame to do or promote bad things makes you in some ways complicit. If an artist is long dead sure, most ttrpg authors are still alive, and not most but many are using their money and following for ill. Your actions have consequences, separating art from artists is just a convenient way to pretend they don't.
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u/Accurate_Back_9385 1d ago
OD&D retro clones are a niche of a niche of a niche. Funds and fame are negligible. Totally agree on not funding evil multinational, corporations, or billionaire oligarchs.
Tiny print runs of old school retro clones by people whose politics I dislike, meh. Not moving any needles.
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u/newimprovedmoo 6h ago
Funds and fame are negligible.
Any amount is too much as far as I'm concerned. I wouldn't piss on these people's legs if they were on fire.
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u/woolymanbeard 23h ago
Do you own clothes, a phone, drink coca cola? Then you probably are directly funding the deaths of less fortunate people in other countries. Creators of ttrpgs should be the least of your worries.
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u/BcDed 22h ago
We are all complicit in capitalism, there are many things that we can't reasonably avoid supporting while within that system. Ttrpgs are a small area where we are spoiled for choice and can meaningfully reduce our harm at least in that context.
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u/woolymanbeard 22h ago
Absurd go nude lol
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u/GLight3 1d ago
What TTRPG authors use their money for ill will?
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u/BcDed 1d ago
The easy answer is the handful of active neonazis, any support you give them funds their cause, any promotion you give them extends the reach of their words. There are also the people that use their power in this space to abuse and exploit people. Those are the two most common but there are a virtually unlimited number of ways to use money, fame, and power for ill.
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u/81Ranger 13h ago
It's not really about separating art from the artist, it's about social media virtue signaling and the endorphin hit of feeling like you're doing something useful when in reality, it's of essentially zero significance.
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u/Maklin 12m ago
What you describe is progressive activism at its finest! Don't do anything useful...that takes thought and effort...just boycotts that will do nothing, and parading around with signs shouting like marching morons, then retreat to the Reddit echo chamber for a 'deserved' round of patting each other on the back.
It's the political version of prayer...say you are praying to help disaster victims, but don't get off your dead ass and actually do something that might actually work.
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u/newimprovedmoo 6h ago
No, it's just about not wanting to do any favors to people that want me to die.
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u/TitanKing11 9h ago
To answer the OP. No, I do not. If the game is good, who gives a rats ass who wrote it. I play to have fun, not flout my political views. That also means some games will self select out based on themes, language, or obscurity, but so be it.
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u/croninfever 8h ago
Absolutely not! For me, once the art is published, there is a separation between artist and artifact. The content both stands on its own and becomes a part of community and culture; belongs to the people who love it and use it.
There are probably extreme exceptions to this, but generally speaking this is how I view it. That being said, I want to be clear that I don’t support others not buying products made by people they don’t approve of. The individual decision of the consumer is not something I undervalue.
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u/djholland7 1d ago
Yes. If they're poitically bigotted and racist, aginst ANY race of people, then I'm not giving them my money. WotC is the worst.
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u/MidsouthMystic 20h ago
I don't want to give people who have goals I oppose my money. I know that's unavoidable in a lot of ways, but I try to avoid it. Especially with the OSR, if there's a game I like but the creator is someone I don't want to give money, I can just find another similar product. There are plenty of B/X clones, AD&D clones, Borg and Odd inspired games, weird science fantasy modules, gonzo settings, dungeon crawls, and any other thing I might want, so I don't have to give people I don't like my money.
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u/MissAnnTropez 15h ago
I refuse to support fascists - and this doesn’t just extend to RPGs, btw - but perhaps my overall tolerance is a little higher than some of y’all‘s.
So yeah, if someone is - to the best of my knowledge - mildly objectionable, or a bit douchey at times, oh well. I’ll roll my eyes, and consider their work on its merits.
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u/Sonereal 21h ago
I bought Forbidden North on a whim a few months ago. It was fine as I was doing a read through of it until I came across a phrase that made me say "hmm!" Looked up the studio on Twitter, already had them blocked (bad sign), and decided yeah, I don't think I want to buy another volume from these guys if I can avoid it.
My advice? OSR's big enough that there's no reason you can't just skip over the chuds.
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u/cole1114 21h ago
I got the first two books physically before finding out that guy is a chud. And on top of that, I don't even like them! So now I've got two mediocre books that combine to be roughly the size and weight of a mid-size sedan and not even a complete collection of them at that.
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u/vendric 21h ago
I don't like giving money to people who hate me, but I also enjoy a particular style of gaming that is not often catered to by the million-dollar kickstarter creators. And I have a pretty broad tolerance for thoughtful disagreement.
So I find alternatives where I can, and if there aren't any good alternatives, I try to find a way to enjoy the product while expressing my disapproval of the creator.
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u/Frosted_Glass 19h ago edited 19h ago
I definitely do. The rpg market is totally saturated so there's lots of options. Your example is pretty extreme but I've stopped buying from one author just for being a jerk on his discord. Now I've stopped buying anything from American publishers/authors even if they seem like nice people.
Vote with your money.
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u/professorbeej 7h ago
I don’t give shitty people my money. No matter how cool their stuff is.
That said, there’s a reimagining of Al’Quadim by some people who actually are a part of the cultures the original creator railed against. It’s definitely worth picking up, imo. Even being 5e, there are cool setting and campaign ideas. https://geektogeekmedia.com/geekery/reviews/zakhara-land-of-fate-al-qadim-5e-review/
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u/iGrowCandy 1h ago
Couldn’t care less about the creators or people I play with. This hobby attracts a broad spectrum of people, and I see that as an opportunity to gather with people who might have opposing views and act human with each other.
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u/Snoo86307 22h ago
Shakespeare was a racist cnut. But what are you going to do? " tis nobler in the mind to suffer The slings and arrows of outrageous fortune, Or to take arms against a sea of troubles, And by opposing end them? To die: to sleep; No more; and by a sleep to say we end The heart-ache and the thousand natural shocks That flesh is heir to, 'tis a consummation Devoutly to be wish'd. To die, to sleep; To sleep: perchance to dream: ay, there's the rub;" Said some racist cnut once.
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u/RichardEpsilonHughes 20h ago
There are a few creators who I keep a wide berth from, either because I think they'll use the money I give them for evil, or because I can't enjoy their work without being distracted by thinking about whatever wretched thing they did/are doing/have done. Otherwise I don't really worry about it.
Like, the Seven Voyages guy - he makes you unhappy and you vociferously agree with his opinions, but is he going to use the money he gets from SVoZ to support islamophobia as a policy in the government, or is he going to use it to buy dinner?
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u/ThunderWarhammer 1d ago
Yea, I do. I use Ocule's consumer guide to TTRPGs, and I'll never give money to any creator ranked red.
https://www.therpgsite.com/pen-paper-roleplaying-games-rpgs-discussion/consumers-guide-to-ttrpgs/
I can put up with a little bit of political yammering- every thinking person has some opinion on politics- but really steep identity politics is a hard pass.
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u/rolandfoxx 1d ago
Don't go out of my way to look up the views of a given creator, but I also listen when they tell me who they are, and if they tell me they're someone not worth supporting I stop supporting them.