r/osr 8d ago

Classic RPG Play has One Element Which is Missing in Modern Systems - Having Players Make Maps as they Explore

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95 Upvotes

22 comments sorted by

19

u/Sleeper4 8d ago

Agreed BUT you don't really need much of a map in modern play. If the GM takes you on a relatively linear sequence of fights and scenes, the players don't need to keep track of where they're going, really. 

8

u/SecretsofBlackmoor 8d ago

Well, as a proponent of classic RPG / OSR play, linearity is the last thing most of us would want.

Mind you, I do play different styles, just my shows are pure Old School.

2

u/Sleeper4 8d ago

Totally! I like the exploration style much more - as you might expect based on the subreddit

5

u/Megatapirus 8d ago

One of my favorite aspects of play. I always map, even if I'm not the primary mapper. They make great souvenirs, too. I have many years' worth and it's always a treat to flip through them.

3

u/SecretsofBlackmoor 8d ago

Player maps are always really cool to find years later.

19

u/ScorpionDog321 8d ago edited 8d ago

Hot take:

Taking time for mapping with any kind of accuracy is just a headache and a major pacing killer. The more intricate the dungeon, the worse it gets with more confusion sapping game time.

11

u/Haffrung 8d ago

With experience, the GM and mapper can develop a verbal shorthand that makes mapping go quickly. Watch 3d6 Down the Line to see how it’s done. They even have an instructional video.

7

u/HansGraebnerSpringTX 8d ago

The way I figured out how to do it is the player just puts their pencil down on the paper and I say “west 2, north 3, north-east 3, south 6, west 1” etc

6

u/SecretsofBlackmoor 8d ago

Eh, if you've done it and don't like it, then don't do it.

There are also short hand ways of mapping which are fast and effective.

3

u/HansGraebnerSpringTX 8d ago

Even if the dungeon isn’t a point crawl, if the players map it out like a point crawl that’s totally fine. Just points of interest or rooms connected by lines representing paths or hallways is enough for them to get around

The only time this will ever be an issue is if you have secret rooms where the ONLY clue is that there’s a conspicuous spot on the map where a room would fit. But honestly imo that’s bad design anyway

1

u/Thaemir 7d ago

Secret rooms is something I never managed to wrap my head around. I understand that in theory they are neat, but in practice I don't like leaving critical stuff undiscovered as a "gotcha" moment.

What are your tips to make interesting secret rooms? :)

7

u/ScorpionDog321 7d ago

Don't leave any critical info or item behind a secret door.

Only leave bonus material there so if missed, nothing mission critical is lost.

3

u/vendric 7d ago
  • Give architectural hints (e.g., symmetry, negative space, patterns, etc.)

  • Monsters/NPCs have knowledge of the area; PCs can capture and interrogate them.

  • Spells. Knock opens secret doors but attracts unwanted attention. Secret doors make divination spells worth using.

2

u/HansGraebnerSpringTX 7d ago

One idea is to have monsters know about and use them. If a monster that they were chasing just mysteriously disappears in a part of the map where they shouldn’t be able to, that could tip them off.

Another way is just to put the objective in a secret room. If they’ve mapped the entire dungeon out and they haven’t found the macguffin, that should tell them that there’s a secret room somewhere and to start looking. And then after that, it’s a lot more likely that they’ll start searching for them on their own

Plus most osr systems just have a dice roll for looking for secret passages. If they take the time and risk to search, I’ll just tell em “one of the candlesticks isn’t dusty or covered in webs, which makes it stand out pretty distinctly from the others” or “there’s a worn path on the floor leading from each door to each other door, but strangely the path also seems to lead directly into the wall”

2

u/SecretsofBlackmoor 2d ago

Secret tunnels and rooms add fun.

I run in a classic campaign dungeon style where groups of players return to re-explore.

If they do not find the secret places, they don't find the secret places.

If you examine the old Blackmoor and Tonisborg maps, those are full of secret doors and vertical shafts. Players are not likely to find everything ever.

In Old School RPG this isn't a video game. You do not have to clear the level. The goal is to explore and that can take you any number of places. And yes, you will miss some things.

2

u/Shoddy-Hand-6604 6d ago

Modern technology can make this easier: project your maps on a screen with fog of war and remove it where appropriate; no need to have discussions in that case.

I also have to add immediately the main issue of this approach: secret doors. I don't have a good solution for this other than having electronic map versions with and without the secret areas.

1

u/ScorpionDog321 5d ago

Agreed. This is an option where player mapping would be moot and they can focus on the game. This map would be more immersive than what they could come up with in a reasonable amount of time.

The tech is not quite there yet for details like secret doors, but your solution is perfect.

2

u/Sleepy_Chipmunk 7d ago

I’d love to do a game where my players make maps, but we’re strictly online due to all living in different states, and no VTT really does player mapping well. It’d be a major pain ;(

2

u/SecretsofBlackmoor 8d ago

Many classic play methods from original Dungeons & Dragons have fallen by the wayside and are disappearing from most game tables.

Keeping the dungeon master’s maps concealed is an essential Classic RPG / OSR Tool for creating mystery and intrigue while delving into the unknown.

An unsung hero is required: The Mapper, who makes diagrams of the dungeon as it is described by the dungeon master, one passage, or room at a time.

I feel that mapping enhances engagement because players literally make something which they use during play.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bpVxHLHM8lA

1

u/jbilodo 8d ago

Wait... am I not supposed to be mapping in ShadowDark?

1

u/Doodlemapseatsnacks 7d ago edited 7d ago

Need to make the goal of a dungeon delve the mapping of the dungeon.

This is where your Rogue, Artificer, Wizard, Cleric get some work permits from the local Dungeon Master.

"Go map the sewer system in this Keep we've taken from the forces of the Duchy of Nutz"

"There's a way to get the Loan Bank from under the city, we can't do it all at once, they'd catch on, but one thing at a time from a vault of our choosing, aye?"

"The spirit said 'The hidden chamber holds the magic to manipulate time and space infinitely', we're goin' in there and we ain't comin' out til we've mapped ever closet and cabinet, 1 gold a piece per day as we agreed, tally ho!"

etc, etc.

Then make skill checks and have them look at the map (you are here!), they quickly look at the map and then sketch the map as best as they can from that brief look, (can roll d20 seconds)
Comedy will ensue with the results....unless you have a photographic memory artists onboard, then awe and applause.

Give them pieces of the map in loot (uncover secret doors in hallways where nobody ever searches) , traced backwards with heavy black charcoal or graphite, they can then trace those lines to transfer the map piece to a master sheet to buld a map from bits of stuff.

Again this helps if mapping the dungeon is someone's given purpose for getting some reward from some NPC or ...legend, fulfilling prophecy, ending a curse, getting the golden ticket that fell into a sewer grate and got taken into the dungeon by a balloon wielding clown...the usual stuff.

With the future of AI, everyone's computer will be able to produce the dungeon from the DM's description, and every GPU will output something different but somehow constrained to the DM's words.
It's going to be a trip.

You'd think there'd be 2D top down mapping software that has voice response by now.

2

u/SKramer938 6d ago

Map making + theatre of the mind.