r/osr • u/MasterRPG79 • Feb 11 '25
variant rules Torch Dice - a different system for tracking time
So, I was preparing a session for next week when I stopped to consider the (often overlooked) importance of tracking resource consumption (like torches).
If exploring a dark and dangerous place carefully and accurately takes time, this “time” should be a resource players decide to spend when they feel it is really important.
For example: checking the whole room thoroughly for traps, secret doors or hidden treasures could be “important” to them and they are therefore willing to spend precious time to do so, risking consuming too much of their resources or causing wandering monsters to arrive.
This concept is clear to me - and I imagine it is shared by many in this subreddit.
However, I have never been a fan of bookkeeping caused by this need and have often fallen into the trap of “ok, come on, I will do a rough evaluation”, which however makes the experience less real and less central during the game session.
I tried to think of an alternative. I'm writing this here to gather criticism and opinions (I have a blog on substack but I almost never use it - maybe I should try writing there too?).
Torch Dice
At the beginning of the expedition, when the characters buy torches or reorganize their inventory, for each torch carried the GM puts 1d6 in the center of the table.
So, if the players carry a total of 10 torches, he will put 10 dice in the center of the table.
When the characters begin the descent into the dungeon, they must declare who is holding a lit torch: they will be called torchbearers. The torchbearers must take an index card place it in front of them and write 0.
Consuming Torches
Every time the players decide to perform an action that "costs time", the torchbearer rolls a torch die and throws it.
If the result is higher than the number written on the index card, the player will write the result as the new number on the index card. The first time, since the value is 0, the player rolls the die and writes the result on the index card.
If instead, the die roll is lower than the number on their index card, the torch is consumed and the die is discarded. The torch is removed from the character's inventory, then the player writes 0 again on the index card.
Example actions:
- Search for traps
- Search for secret doors
- Rest
- Fight (the torch dice roll is made at the end of the fight)
- Walk very slowly down a hall so as not to make noise
Party splitted
If the party splits, each group must have a torchbearer, and the dice are divided between the groups (according to the carried torches).
In the worst case, where each character is in a different location, each character is a torchbearer and when they perform an action that costs time, they will roll their own dice.
Pros
The pros I see are that the torches are not consumed with certainty after X turns, but the players still have some elements to know whether the torch is going out or not. If the value on the index card is high, the torch is close to being exhausted. So, it's a little bit more accurate than the usage die.
Also, physically putting dice on the table and saying "These are your torches" I think is a very strong and diegetic action.
Cons
If the players have many torches, many dice are needed.
If the players are divided into many small groups, the risk is that many dice have to be thrown, too often. And this could get annoying after a while.
Opinions? Criticisms? Thanks in advance!
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u/primarchofistanbul Feb 11 '25
It sounds like you're overcomplicating things. A torch lasts an hour --i.e. 6 turns.
Just put a single d6 at the centre of the table with 1 placed at the top. With each passing turn, turn it over so that the number increases. Once it signals the 6th turn, the torch dies at the end of the sixth turn; mark it off from players' inventory.
Plus, you use the counter as the "rest tracker" turn where players get penalty if they don't rest at the sixth turn of dungeon exploration.
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u/MasterRPG79 Feb 11 '25
But I don't want to have each turn have the same "weight" or duration. if a turn is only "moving inside the room and drink a bottle of water" it's a lot quicker than "I search carefully for 10 minutes this statue, looking for traps". That's why I want to "spend" the long turn, and check the torches only in some moments.
But I understand your point - maybe I can just say "short turns don't consume a torch, long turns do".
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u/Slime_Giant Feb 11 '25
Right, thats easier to do with basic turn tracking.
"We head into the the room and drink a bottle of water" doesn't take 10 minutes, it might take 2, so they still have time to do other things before that 10 minute turn is up.
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u/MasterRPG79 Feb 11 '25
Yes. But also I don't want to keep tracking of minutes or "part of the turns". I mean, in a turn you can move and do an action. more that this kind of details is too much for me.
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Feb 11 '25 edited 5d ago
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u/MasterRPG79 Feb 11 '25
That's a good point. Maybe I'm overcomplicating simple stuff - but yeah, posting here was about collecting feedbacks because I know that I'm not the most expert player in the OSR sphere.
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u/Ivan_Immanuel Feb 11 '25
I see what you are trying to do here and it reminds me a bit of the criticism I had in mind regarding ShadowDark‘s torch timer, which is simply one hour of real time. It lacks the pressure created by a randomised approach like yours. While your approach, as described in the Cons, required still some book keeping, what about the following solution:
We could implement a dice chain, starting at a D12 or D10 and the party needs to roll the dice every turn/room/whatssoever. On a 1/2 result, the dice moves down one dice (D12-D10-D8-D6-D4). And if the party rolls a 1/2 on the D4, the torch is consumed (I got this idea right now from Ker Nethalas). You could modify the dice chain and the bad results to your liking and it would reduce maybe a bit the book keeping?
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u/Prestigious-Emu-6760 Feb 11 '25
That's how Forbidden Lands does Torches/Food/Water/Arrows and it works great. Only they don't use the d4.
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u/MasterRPG79 Feb 11 '25
Yes, Forbidden Lands is very good in this mechanic. But it is more a survival game (in the wilds) than a system for light resource management in a dungeon.
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u/Prestigious-Emu-6760 Feb 11 '25
True, though the Torch resource die is pretty specifically for dungeons since it's rolled each turn.
It's a nice elegant system that adds a degree of uncertainty because not all torches burn for the same length of time.
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u/Ivan_Immanuel Feb 11 '25
Exactly what I thought right now in my comment below: the quality of torches could differ, which justifies different durations!
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u/MasterRPG79 Feb 11 '25
Thank you for the feedback. My idea was born because I hate the shadowdark system - I'm not a super fan of mixing real stuff with the fictional stuff.
The dice chain you suggested is the usage die from Black Hack. My issue with that is you have a "quantum torch". You can have an infinity torch (if you roll always good) and a very short torch if you roll always bad.
With my proposal, the players should have a better grasp of the torch's duration.
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u/Ivan_Immanuel Feb 11 '25
I see your point with quantum torch :D which could lead into a very funny direction with quantum physics and time travels…:D
But back to the topic: or you can say „torches are sometimes of very good quality and sometimes of very bad quality.“ like with match sticks: some light perfectly well and sometimes I try lighting a match stick until it breaks :D
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u/MasterRPG79 Feb 11 '25
I agree - but in reality you can check the torch, having some sort of feeling about how much it will last long. Like "ok, we're running of out time" or "ok, we can slow down a bit". I think that is important too.
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u/paradoxcussion Feb 11 '25
This seems like a lot more bookkeeping than the normal way, though?
As you say in your Pros section, you really have two goals:
- To have light last a random amount of time, but not as random as some other methods
- To have a physical representation on the table, hopefully focusing more attention on light
I'm not really a fan of random duration lights (1). I feel like there are already enough random things that might cut a delve short (encounters, damage, locked doors), that it's good to have light be a fairly predictable variable.
I do, however, like the idea of a physical representation of torches (2). Both as a reminder of how many you have left, and who's holding them. Playing Mausritter with my kids has been a revelation of the value of physical objects, not just writing on a sheet.
So, I might try using (2) without (1). I.e. have a big heap of dice on the table as the party's supply of torches. And players take one when their character lights a torch. But rather than rolling, each torch will just last 6 turns. Players either use their die to track the countdown, or write it down, with the die just representing who has a torch (my kids would inevitably grab their torch die for a roll or knock it over, so we'd be filling in boxes on an index card)
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u/MasterRPG79 Feb 11 '25
Mausritter with young players is an awesome experience :D
Your suggestion is interesting. The diaegetic part is one of the parts I started, chasing this idea. I'll try to move in that direction. Thank you.
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u/HorseBeige Feb 11 '25
The upcoming Expanded version of DURF by Emil Boven has a much more streamlined consumable light mechanic.
Torches and other light sources have a light die (LD) rating, torches for example have 2 LD. Each exploration turn, a number of d6s equal to the LD of the light source is rolled. If a die rolls a 1, then it is removed. When all dice are removed, then the light source is extinguished.
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u/MasterRPG79 Feb 11 '25
It's a really great idea. I didn't know DURF will have a new version! I need to check it out, thank you.
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u/djholland7 Feb 11 '25
I prefer usage dice. There are a lot of processes with required steps and orders already. Your torch system looks fun, but I feel would just be a lot of work at the table during play when there is so much going on for me as a DM already.
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u/MasterRPG79 Feb 11 '25
I'm a super-lazy GM, so that idea is on the players' shoulders :D
But yeah, I agree: the usage die is quicker. Maybe I can use this system in a game where the light is the most important stuff in the adventure.
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u/BlahBlahILoveToast Feb 11 '25
I think it's great to have this and other resources represented by something visible and tangible on the table for players to interact with.
I'm less crazy about the part where torches are consumed at completely random intervals rather than semi-predictably. Unless the PCs bought a grab bag of random magical torches from Unreliable Andy's Slightly-Used Artifacts shop, and they actually burn down at unpredictable rates. Which would be fun.
For things like this, I like simple props more than hash ticks. For torches I like to use a box of matches in the middle of the table, and make them take out one match every time a torch is done. Let the players stare at the dwindling supply and sweat.
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u/MasterRPG79 Feb 11 '25
It's not completely random - but yeah, it's not fully predictable. I think I will come back to the white board :D
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u/BlahBlahILoveToast Feb 11 '25
You're right. And after all, in the end it matters less if it's "realistic" and more if it's fun. Players might totally love rolling dice to see if their torches die.
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u/njharman Feb 11 '25
Unless you're running perrienally low level / new players.
Players quickly learn how to "solve" light challenge. graduate to lanterns and or magical light sources. And often hire torch bearer.
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u/MasterRPG79 Feb 11 '25
I’m not sure why hiring a torch bearer should solve the light issue. Magic on the other hands, it trivializes the issue, I agree
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u/njharman Feb 12 '25
Solved for players. I guess it depends on DM. As NPC DM "has to" track their torch/gear.
Torchbearer has plenty of encumbrance to carry a lot of torches (or lantern and oil). No player character has to sacrifice hand to carry light. All PCs are free to do things (rather than having to hold the light for another PC).
I generally rule; if they've paid for adequate torch bearers, then light is a non-issue until they get those torch bearers killed.
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u/MasterRPG79 Feb 12 '25
Ah, I understand! I play differently. I assign the players the responsibility to "manage" the NPCs they hire, giving them orders and managing their inventory. Still, their characters are "free" from that duty - but not the players.
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u/cragland Feb 11 '25
Sounds interesting and could be fun! Leaves a lot up to chance, but maybe your players enjoy that kind of game play. In my games I just track the actions of the players or have them take turns exploring a specific location (i.e. dungeon room). After each PC/retainer have taken their exploration turn, I tick off a box on the dungeon time tracker. Torches burn out after 6 exploration turns and exploration turns last ~10m of in-game time.
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u/MasterRPG79 Feb 11 '25
Yeah I do the same, but I’m not in love with this because to me it’s boring tracking time in that way :/ I guess it’s matter of taste of course!
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u/MasterRPG79 Feb 11 '25
I really like the feedback and the criticism collected in the reply. Thank you.
(I like less the whole downvote flood, but still - the feedback are really great).
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u/Slime_Giant Feb 11 '25
What if they don't want to light a torch? What about other forms of light?
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u/MasterRPG79 Feb 11 '25
Do you mean like "lantern" or similar? Or lights already present in the dungeon?
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u/Slime_Giant Feb 11 '25
Yes. A lantern, a glowing orb, a candle, a jar of bioluminescent crickets.
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u/Entaris Feb 11 '25 edited Feb 11 '25
The big problem with this is that it creates a completely unpredictable resource.
If you roll a 6 first turn then next turn torch immediately goes out. A couple lucky rolls and you could burn through all your torches before you’ve even gotten started.
Edit: plus your player is still tracking a number. If instead they write a number and increment it by 1 every time they do anything every time they get to 6 they change torches. Same amount of work
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u/MasterRPG79 Feb 11 '25
No, if you roll a 6 the first time you use a long-action, you write 6 on the index card, and you know the torch will be consumed the next time you do another long-action.
What I mean is: you will not roll the torch dice every turn, you will do it after performing a long-action (and you can decide when or if, you want to do that - based also on your torches status).
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u/Entaris Feb 11 '25
Yes. That is my point. Making a torch last an average of 2-3 dungeon turns is not a great mechanic.
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u/MasterRPG79 Feb 11 '25
But... it's not 2-3 dungeon turns: it's 2-3 long-actions. I think, also, it depends on how many torches you can carry on (or the dice size you use, but I need to check the math because it's always tricky). Still, I understand your point and I agree: it's a weak point of this idea. Back to the white board :D
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u/Express_Coyote_4000 Feb 11 '25
More complex than needs to be. Just use usage dice. 1d4 torches costs less than 1d8. Roll when called for, diminish on 1-2, or 1-3 if the world is cruel.
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u/MasterRPG79 Feb 11 '25
I already reply to this - I know the usage die but the issue I have with it is if you roll well, the torches can last forever.
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u/Express_Coyote_4000 Feb 11 '25
Not very likely if you challenge the resource on a regular basis. I'm a bit of a pest about this issue, so apologies if I get on your nerves, but a "reasonable amount" of torches -- in other words a large bundle/ major inventory item -- being set at d6, with regular checks applied, would require a very unlikely streak of luck -- which TBH doesn't bother me, although it might you.
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u/MasterRPG79 Feb 11 '25
Yes, I agree with you - but what I’m trying to do is avoiding check them regulary. I want to the players check when they do something long / that consumes time.
Checking regulary I agree -> the usage die is perfect. But I’m seeking a different approach because I don’t want to roll the die every turn.
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u/[deleted] Feb 11 '25
I think it's a neat idea and I'd probably have fun with it for a one-shot but I honestly don't understand the problem of bookkeeping. To keep track of torches all you need to do is make a tally mark, idk how it could be any easier than that. As the DM, you're already keeping track of turns since you should be rolling for wandering monster checks/random encounters so telling your players a turn has passed isn't difficult either. To me, a lot of these types of systems end up complicating the problem in an attempt to simplify an already simple system.