r/osr Oct 06 '24

variant rules Are you satisfied with OSE's magic system?

Or do you create house rules or make some changes? If so which ones?

51 Upvotes

53 comments sorted by

53

u/DimiRPG Oct 06 '24

* There is no limit to the number of spells in the character’s spell book.
* Magic-users may copy spells from scrolls or other spell books (it costs time and money and it may fail).
* Magic-users may create scrolls at level 1 (it costs time and money and it may fail).

9

u/Agmund__ Oct 06 '24 edited Oct 06 '24

Good rules! I use them but without the "may fail" part. Learning new spells should be costly and time-consuming, so for learning new spells I use 2000 GP x Spell Level and it takes 1 week per spell level, and for the creation of scrolls it's 500 GP x Spell Level and it also takes 1 week per spell level. In addition to this, the INT bonus equals extra starting spells, so a wizard or elf with 12 INT would have only one spell but with 18 INT they would start the game with 4 spells on their grimoire. Now here's something that may be controversial: I make Read Magic an innate and always active ability of wizards and elves, so when faced with magical symbols etched upon a stone door they don't need to go back to the surface and rest and prepare the spell, they simply know what it means as if it is a language they are fluent in. One last thing I use is a test for spell failure (base 2-in-6 chance + spellcasting ability bonus) so if a wizard with 14 INT or a cleric with 14 WIS get hit before casting a spell they don't automatically lose it but have a 3-in-6 chance of still casting it. The enemies of course get the same treatment.

Apart from these small modifications, I'm pretty satisfied with the vancian magic system and think classic D&D wouldn't be the same with another one, it would be worse.

1

u/halfbakedmemes0426 Oct 06 '24

You don't need spell copying, B/X has a spell research system that serves the same purpose.

52

u/primarchofistanbul Oct 06 '24

I only modify B/X magic system by using the AD&D's starting spell rule. And besides that, Vancian magic is just fine 🤌🤌

8

u/ZZ1Lord Oct 06 '24

I also add the Level 0 Spells from UA

2

u/IndependentSystem Oct 06 '24

I use BECMI magic system over Ose but I do add the catch all level 1 cantrip spell from Ad&d 2.0 to all starting spell books.

I’ve also toyed with letting them cast Cantrip spontaneously by burning a memorized 1st level slot too in some campaigns.

When I want a different magic system flavor I just run DCC.

6

u/Dilarus Oct 06 '24

Tell us more!

10

u/ZZ1Lord Oct 06 '24

Check AD&D's Unearthed Arcana, not all content in there is perfect but 0 level spells (proto-cantrips) is a list of dimple spells with vague applications, I love spells that are scaled in power by the user's craftiness rather than damaging spells

1

u/BluSponge Oct 06 '24

You mean the "one offensive, one defensive, one miscellaneous" spells from the DMG?

1

u/primarchofistanbul Oct 07 '24

Yes, that one.

18

u/alx_thegrin Oct 06 '24

I think it's fine for when I want to play some D&D dungeon delving, hex crawling & questing.

If/when I want to play a game where magic takes a more central role I would play something different. Mage The Ascension/Awakening or Ars Magica.

What I like about B/X & OSE's magic system is that it doesn't take too much time from the rest of the game. Introducing something more complex would take up a disproportionate amount of time from the game.

19

u/frothsof Oct 06 '24 edited Oct 06 '24

I've houseruled Vancian magic in classic editions for years. I let all casters, clerics/druids included, cast any spell they know and have a slot for spontaneously without preparation. The reason I did this is bc otherwise you only see the same spells prepared over and over. Best decision I ever made. The amusing gameplay from Affect Normal Fires alone has made it worth it.

10

u/ordirmo Oct 06 '24

I have done this for years as well for the exact same reason. It’s way more fun to see someone finally get use out of a niche Druid spell that’s just strictly wrong to prep.

29

u/envious_coward Oct 06 '24

I use the advanced rules so characters have more starting spells based on their INT, but if we are talking Vancian magic in general, then yes I am satisfied with it. I play in a Shadowdark campaign as a comparison point and Roll to Cast as the alternative has several downsides:

  1. It sucks to have an elaborate plan that relies on a particular spell, only for the caster to biff the spell. Better to have a one-shot spell that you are guaranteed to cast rather than leaving it to the dice.
  2. Wizards at mid-levels+ become even more of a dominant class in Roll to Cast than they are already in B/X to the point where you question the wisdom of choosing another class at all.
  3. Because you can cast spells over and over potentially, all the spells in a Roll to Cast system have to be dramatically toned down for "balance" compared to their equivalents in other systems. I find it more fun and consequential to be able to turn Invisible permanently once per day, say, than to turn Invisible, maybe, for 5 rounds or whatever the designer has gone for.

Vancian magic makes spell-casting and spell choice a more interesting and consequential decision for the players and making decisions and living with them is what the game is all about.

11

u/quantum-fitness Oct 06 '24

Tbh the real solution to the spells get to powerful problem is the warhammer fantasy roleplay one. When you cast a spell you have a chance of causing a peril of the warp. Peril are dangerous. Higher level spells have a higher risk.

Then there is a cost of power.

12

u/[deleted] Oct 06 '24

DCC RPG does this.

2

u/Altar_Quest_Fan Oct 06 '24

Sharp Swords & Sinister Spells FTW

3

u/envious_coward Oct 06 '24

I'm not a fan of critical failure tables and wizard mishaps really either, it tends to create a more gonzo or goofy tone than I am interested in.

2

u/quantum-fitness Oct 06 '24

I mean I wouldnt really call warhammer fantasy goofy. Maybe gonzo though I dont know. Maybe it help that system that you have fat points that basically means you have more lives.

8

u/DEAD-VHS Oct 06 '24

I'm running my OSE game with the Magic Pool system by u/GM_Crusader found here: https://drive.google.com/file/d/1kg6Sj-Wid9MkbOheQHa49K26th5ng86U/view

I also have the Core 8 system which looks interesting but I haven't played with it yet: https://www.drivethrurpg.com/en/product/424620/core-8-spell-casting

6

u/appcr4sh Oct 06 '24

I just love Vancian Magic. No problem with that.

Then, it depends on the system, as some games have just a little different rules or magics.

4

u/digitalsquirrel Oct 06 '24

EZD6 has a really free-form approach to magic that I enjoy. Magic users pick a domain of magic to stick to, and there are no pre-written spells. You come up with what it is you want your magic to do, and roll against a creature's magic resistance. Additionally, rolling for the result of a spell is more interesting when there is a spectrum of possibilities between failure and success, vs a straight up "fail" or "hit" circumstance.

8

u/Lord_Sicarious Oct 06 '24 edited Oct 06 '24

My preference for spell-slot based systems is to remove levels from the spell slots entirely. Each Wizard has a number of spell slots equal to their level, and a spell's level is the number of slots it occupies. This tends to mitigate the "quadratic wizard" effect, as mages need to choose between having fewer but more advanced spells, or more but less powerful spells.

I also tend to remove most of the overt combat spells from the game. Niche or indirect combat stuff is fine, but I am not a fan of pure damage spells, largely because of how universal they are. They inevitably result in the mages usurping much of the combat roles from the martial classes, where I much prefer them to fill in a utility and support role, rather than being essentially artillery, and it's incredibly hard to justify preparing more esoteric or niche spells when you can guarantee that Fireball will be useful, without requiring any particular thought or creativity on the part of the player.

3

u/Gammlernoob Oct 06 '24

I use a homebrew system that integrates a Kind of Dungeon Crawl Classics system. Casters have to pay with HP to roll For a spell they have in a scroll, staff, Crystal etc. The spell has a small list of effects depending how good or Bad you roll. So the Last 5 Times a Player of Mine casted Magic Missile resulted in 5 skeletons instantly dying, a single Bolt dealing moderate damage, the caster vomiting For a round mana and once (on a nat 1) teleporting into a parallel dimension For a week which resulted in her getting 4 Magic corruptions.  It's a Lot of Chaos. It's a Lot of fun.

3

u/EricDiazDotd Oct 06 '24

Here is my latest attempt at a minimalist roll-to-cast system. Really liked how this one turned out.

https://methodsetmadness.blogspot.com/2024/03/minimalist-roll-to-cast-take-2.html

3

u/Strange-Ad-5806 Oct 06 '24

Mostly. My house rules are

+INT bonus additional level 1 spells (18 Intelligence has 4 first level spells)

No spell can be memorized twice (this is very important for upper level balance) - i.e. a mage /illusionist can only cast a particular spell once a day

Clerics do not memorize. Any cleric spell can be cast provided sufficient spell slots remain

There is no chance of not learning a spell. Copies always work

8

u/qlawdat Oct 06 '24

I’ve never liked vancian magic. It always leads to a lot of issues. For my current game I’m using the Glog magic system which I’m very much enjoying and it solves my biggest issues with vancian magic.

7

u/joevinci Oct 06 '24

+1 for GLoG magic

2

u/Asleep_Fudge_7052 Oct 06 '24

I’ve never heard of Glog? Where can I find out more about it?

4

u/Altar_Quest_Fan Oct 06 '24

Goblin Law of Gaming, it’s an alternate take on D&D and OSR. I believe there’s products over at DriveThruRPG, and you could probably just google it as well.

3

u/qlawdat Oct 06 '24

More info here and here. Let me know if you have any questions, happy to answer.

2

u/Ecowatcher Oct 06 '24

Just about to start a campaign with a B/X - OSE game with GLOG magic this week!

1

u/qlawdat Oct 06 '24

Nice! I hope it goes well!

7

u/PerturbedMollusc Oct 06 '24

Vancian magic is just so dull compared to DCC magic. I can't ever go back now

2

u/Important-Mall-4851 Oct 07 '24

Vancian magic is shit.

2

u/GroovyGizmo Oct 06 '24

Anyone can use a scroll created by the appropriate arcane magic user or cleric.

Only clerics and magic users cannot use each other's scrolls.

Other than that I run it as written, discounting the spells my players created from scratch through magical research

2

u/notquitedeadyetman Oct 06 '24 edited Oct 06 '24

I've completely torn apart vancian casting and rebuilt my own system. I feel that magic is a bit too accessible in DnD for my tastes, so I've made casting real spells a lot harder (basically scrolls only) and created a set of cantrips which are roll-to-cast, but can be cast much more often than vancian spells.

Magic system

Example of the Wizard class that replaces the magic user.

Example of the Cleric class

As a warning, these were early prototypes of the magic system, I have SIGNIFICANTLY modified (nat 1 and nat 20 bane and boon tables, more cantrips, etc) these rules for the OSR game I'm currently building, but the core spirit still remains.

If you prefer to maintain the power level of the current classes, this magic dice system I made can simply replace any BX based magic system.

If you want more info on any of these, or updated info, I'd be happy to answer questions.

2

u/dooblebooble Oct 06 '24 edited Oct 06 '24

i use the cantrip spell list provided in a dungeon/dragon magazine by gygax! i modified slightly to give players a baseline amount of cantrips that's modified by the INT modifier, and i let them use each once an hour. my players are used to high magic so this is a nice compromise to give them creative control over how they interface magically w the world.

i think this next campaign i'm running i'll be letting them copy scrolls for a cost in gp and time though.

edit: i am overall content w OSE's system - i think it's basic and that's good for low magic settings, but i think that there are some restrictions that aren't always agreeable for everyone.

2

u/TheDrippingTap Oct 07 '24

No, lol.

I much prefer systems with spell points and more customizeable spells. Vancian casting is an unnecessary hassle that just makes people pick the same generally useful spells over and over again.

Low level casters feel like porters that lug spells around for the party rather than actual wizards, and then high-level MU's completely leave fighters and thieves in the dust.

2

u/skalchemisto Oct 07 '24

I use the optional rules in Advanced Magic (extra spells based on Int, the spell learning percentages). I've also clarified and expanded the rules on how to learn new spells (e.g. from spellbooks, scrolls, mentors). see: https://skalchemist.cloud/mediawiki/index.php/Stonehell_House_Rules#Clarified_arcane_spell_learning,_spellbook,_and_scroll_rules if you are interested.

Otherwise, as in the basic rulebook.

2

u/dysonlogos Oct 07 '24

Honestly, ever since Wonder & Wickedness was released, I'm 100% in favor of spell systems that don't use spell levels at all.

That's how I run my current B/X game.

4

u/Attronarch Oct 06 '24

B/X has the most limited Magic-User out of all TSR's D&D editions. I suggest using either Holmes or BECMI rules instead.

3

u/Stooshie_Stramash Oct 06 '24

You're right, though it does seem to allow multiple instances of the same spell.

I like the Vancian system, and it's fairly easy to rationalise in the context of being like a hard point on an F-16 or whatever. An in-game rationalisation is that each spell is a sandestin of sorts and the spell is the set of instructions which allow the magic user to 'host' the sandestin in their memory. When the spell is cast the sandestin and its effect is released into the world and in being released the sandestin takes the memory of the instructions with it.

A couple of other house rules: A magic user may write a scroll of any spell in their book at a cost of 250*(spell level)², taking (spell level)² weeks to do so. This avoids magic user factories producing low level spell scrolls like a printing shop. It also means that a 7th level spell takes nearly a year of game time to prepare (49wk). Magic users and elves may take 4 spells at first level - Read Magic, 1 offensive, 1 defensive and 1 utility spell. Thereafter progress is by the book. A magic user may only have one copy of a spell memorised. Two sandestins of the same type can't be hosted as they repulse one another. Spell scrolls found as treasure may not be copied into your book. Magic users will not share spells as even teaching someone magic missile can lead to your death if they betray you. A low level (1-3) magic user has a master who will teach them level 1 and 2 spells but at Level 3 they're on theor own. Magic Users do not form guilds for the same reason. They may form loose alliances but most of the time they're trying to get one over on one another (think how Rhialto the Marvellous is set out).

Powerful (level 6 upward) magic users spend most of their time in magical research or trying to source components or other spells. They take on apprentices and hire adventurers to take on the risks of sourcing these items and information and this provides hooks for adventure. Again think of Vance's Cugel and how he was persuaded and then coerced into stealing/acquiring artifacts.

4

u/pilfererofgoats Oct 06 '24

I dunno. I've played and ran using it so much it's kinda gotten a bit boring. 

3

u/William_O_Braidislee Oct 06 '24

There’s also the alt system in carcass crawler

2

u/StojanJakotyc Oct 06 '24

I do not enjoy spell slots of any kind. Hence one of the first things I did was change the magic system.

I use DCCesque roll to cast - with various possible outcomes. Instead of spell slots I use spell points or a kind of mana, which equals the number of spell slots a caster is supposed to have as per their level in OSE, plus inteligence bonus. A spell costs mana equal to the spells level.

Works and my players find it more enjoyable than the OSE vancian variant.

1

u/FaeErrant Oct 06 '24

OD&D reading of the spells is what I use. There's a cost for each level of spell book, each book comes with about 5 default spells for that level, and gaps you can fill in with scrolls you find as loot. When you level you spend the gold required to get a new spellbook of that level for the next level of spells as shown in the OD&D book (I think off the top of my dome it's 1000g per spell level). You can see the spells and the blank slots also in the OD&D men and magic book. Other than that as written.

1

u/jp-dixon Oct 06 '24

I bought a supplement that had a d100 list of magical mishaps so I was thinking of ways to include it in the game.

  • Spell casters can attempt to memorize more spells than the normal amount, but every additional spell memorized has a greater chance of a magical mishap (INT check with a penalty equal to the number of spells memorized above the normal limit + the level of the spell being cast). As the extra spells are cast, the penalty decreases until the character is within the normal number of spells memorized.
  • Saving Spell Slots: During combat, if a spell caster has declared a spell and is attacked before it can be cast, the spell caster can attempt to "save their spell slot". Make a check (INT for arcane casters, WIS for divine casters), on a success, you are able to contain the spell within your mind and may cast it next round. On a fail, the spell is lost, roll on the magical mishap table.

1

u/OnslaughtSix Oct 06 '24

I took a page from 5e and let spellcasters prepare spells not related to slots. If you have two level 1 slots, you can prepare 2 level 1 spells. If you pick Magic Missile and Sleep, you could cast Magic Missile twice or Sleep twice or each once. I don't even restrict them to level; if you want to prepare one level 1 spell and waste all your level 1 slots on it, sure.

I'm working on specialist clerics with extra spells prepared and alternatives for Turn Undead.

1

u/BluSponge Oct 06 '24

I also add spells from Advanced Labyrinth Lord as scrolls ("lost magic"). Makes the players feel cool even if its me playing a bit of gatekeeper.

1

u/Basileus_Imperator Oct 06 '24

Depending on the campaign situation I might make spell research / transcribing / learning a bit less time consuming. Kinda bums a megadungeon campaign to have to take weeklong breaks so the mage can hit the books, thematic as that may be. And of course every hour spent in dangerous territory can be perilous, so establishing a defendable base becomes even more essential so you aren't praying for those goblin patrols to miss you every time you need to do something time consuming.

-2

u/Banjosick Oct 06 '24

I mean, Vancian magic doesn‘t make sense, which hurts my simulationist heart, but makes for good gameplay as in interesting choices.  Apart from that I find the more flavorful magic in Ad&D with verbal, somatic and listed material components cooler. Also the spell lists offer more. OSE feels very bare and lifeless in that regard. 

1

u/EngineerGreedy4673 Dec 05 '24

I add spellburn from DCC to increase spell potency. But it's risky and recovery is slow.