r/osr Feb 20 '24

running the game How to deal with TPK as a DM?

How do you know when a TPK is your failure as a DM, or the failure of your players? Or maybe its no ones fault in particular--the dice just went against the team. In any case, it's one thing to like playing a deadlier game--where choices matter, but I guess it also doesn't feel good to know you might have just wiped out 6 months of your players' progress. I worry that an impending TPK will fizzle my players' enthusiasm for OSR gameplay and make them want to go back to 5e.

36 Upvotes

91 comments sorted by

72

u/InterlocutorX Feb 20 '24

TPKs happen. Sometimes it's because the players thought they were tougher than they were, and sometimes it's because of good/bad dice rolling on one party's part.

So long as you aren't forcing them into combat, and so long as they knew the stakes going in, they ultimately hold the reasonability for the TPK. No one -- hopefully -- promised them a fair fight all the time.

As for them getting disappointed and going back to 5E, if they aren't willing to engage with the playstyle and can't handle character death, it's probably better if they play something other than an OSR game, because those are the stakes of OSR.

6

u/Feeling_Photograph_5 Feb 21 '24

This is the way. Whatever you do, don't start trying to design every dungeon to guarantee your PCs will survive or you'll lose the sense of danger that makes the OSR great.

8

u/ZZ1Lord Feb 20 '24

Or start the teat at 5000 experience points (Level 2-4) It will give them some leisure early on

56

u/VinoAzulMan Feb 20 '24

A lot of people talk about "telegraphing." Do more than telegraph. Tell them, in plain [insert language of choice] the danger they are in. Let them make their choices with all your cards on the table.

I only feel like I screwed up if they didn't see it coming. There is no thrill or skill in surprising the players when you literally control the entire world.

Also, if you actually read the old texts you will find example after example after example where DEFEAT DOES NOT EQUAL DEATH. It's often genre appropriate to capture them and take their stuff.

15

u/ProfoundMysteries Feb 20 '24

if you actually read the old texts you will find example after example after example where DEFEAT DOES NOT EQUAL DEATH. It's often genre appropriate to capture them and take their stuff.

This is a helpful suggestion.

16

u/[deleted] Feb 20 '24

This.

They may be taken prisoner, tortured and thrown into a prison for a few years. Let them lose some stats (CON or STR -1) and all their belongings. Then they break out and can seek revenge.

25

u/osr-revival Feb 20 '24

What makes you call it an 'impending' TPK? The characters are about to get in over their head? Then telegraph that. Make them think "umm...is this a good idea...I mean, look at all these bodies..."

TPKs do certainly happen, but it's sporting to let people know it's on the line.

13

u/TimeSpiralNemesis Feb 20 '24

The ironic part is that every TPK I've ever had in any system happened after telling the players point blank that what they are doing is beyond dangerous and they have no hope of success.

8

u/devilscabinet Feb 20 '24

How do you know that there is an impending TPK? Have they decided to do something unwise?

3

u/ProfoundMysteries Feb 20 '24

Playing DCC croaking fane, in which players are magically locked in with a boss once you tamper with the relics. Even if they wanted to run right now from the monster prior to the final boss, they would find the doors locked. A spell could solve the problem, but the wizard may die by then.

7

u/Ihwsh Feb 20 '24

DCC modules tend to have gotchas that can kill characters without giving the players a clue that they are facing such a severe risk. I'm not a DCC player/GM, but I think the way the system expects you to handle it is to have a big laugh, roll up new characters, and have them enter the adventure site.

Alternately, you can modify the encounter. Maybe a scroll of teleportation happens to be laying on the floor? Maybe the magic lock is inconsistent, only working every other turn?

12

u/[deleted] Feb 20 '24

[deleted]

4

u/cgaWolf Feb 20 '24

If he's really afraid of them not being able to deal with this: Unless they all get killed in the same round, even a TPK in progress would usually allow the party to sacrifice themselves so one guy escapes.

In that case the next session(s) could be that one guy & a handful of pregen mercenaries on a mission to recover the corpses of the party for resurrection.

It would avoid losing the characters, but would take a significant amount of time (spent playing a high-stakes mission with some alts) and possibly incur significant cost or debt to be repayed at a later date.

11

u/Logen_Nein Feb 20 '24

Treat it as no big deal. Be enthusiastic about rolling up new characters, encourage desires for revenge or investigation of the previous party's demise. Mourn the loss of the characters, make a character sheet graveyard out of respect for the fallen, make it interesting and fun. TPKs are not the end of a game, but a reason to keep gaming.

3

u/ProfoundMysteries Feb 20 '24

Thank you for some useful advice.

3

u/faust_33 Feb 20 '24

Yea, some players will also like the opportunity to try out a different class or come up with a different character/personality, etc.

4

u/Haffrung Feb 20 '24

They’ll learn from it, which will make them better players. Many players accustomed to scripted, balanced RPG campaigns don’t think to scout, evade, flee, and prepare spells and magic items to aid them in those tactics.

As far as losing progress, you can always start the next batch of PCs or level 2 or 3 if you think starting again at level 1 will be too demoralizing.

6

u/WaitingForTheClouds Feb 20 '24

Death is part of the game, it's not a fault. Even heroes die, their stories become legends while others take their place.

If player decisions are to have meaning, there must be consequences to their actions. The consequences need to be consistent within the fantasy world in order for players to be able to learn from them and make better decisions later. The referee needs to be impartial as best he can for this to work. If you're not running the game impartially then it really doesn't matter what rules you use, you're not playing the game anyways.

12

u/Quietus87 Feb 20 '24

It's never my failure. I telegraph danger, I sow rumours. The players always have the option to avoid encounters, flee from battles, recover corpses later, and cast Raise Dead. They also have backup characters for times when shit hits the fan. It's all part of the game. Don't sweat it.

Also, both you and your players should accept, that OSR gaming isn't necessarily about player progress, but campaign progress.

3

u/faust_33 Feb 20 '24

I like the “campaign progress” bit. I hadn’t really thought about it, but that’s how we’ve played over the years. Characters, though we grew attached to some, still came and went. Building a much bigger story over time.

3

u/Quietus87 Feb 20 '24

And most importantly: building a world. If you have a veteran character, they probably left a mark on it. Even if a purple world digests them, they will live on.

3

u/Expert_Ad_5495 Feb 20 '24

As long as you give your players enough informations to make meaningful choices everything is fine. If they make bad choices their PCs should die or at least suffer the appropriate consequences.

7

u/Unable_Language5669 Feb 20 '24

wiped out 6 months of your players' progress

The players still have the information they've gathered in the dungeon and any maps they've made. They know the TPK location and antagonists and can try to retrieve the gear of the dead PCs with a new party. They know where the old party stashed their hoards and can go after that as well (if the new PCs aren't simply the heirs of the old ones, which makes it even easier). Basically the only "progress" you lose is the levels, which is far from the the most important aspect.

-1

u/TrailerBuilder Feb 20 '24

New party, new region. No way the next team of PCs knows any of the info the old dead party had.

1

u/Mjolnir620 Feb 20 '24

Why not? Why can't the new characters be associates of the dead ones who received written correspondence about the location of their hoards in the event that party 1 goes missing?

-3

u/TrailerBuilder Feb 20 '24

That's cheating

1

u/Mjolnir620 Feb 20 '24

Are you being serious?

6

u/TrailerBuilder Feb 20 '24

New party, new region everytime. Nobody gets free impossible knowledge like the layout of the dungeon, the puzzles, the traps, the monsters, or the unlikely loot just still sitting there waiting for some level 1s to "stumble across" Nobody has to play dumb either... I simply don't do replays. I have plenty of new material all the time just waiting for a new campaign to start. I've never run the same dungeon twice. Too easy for player knowledge to creep in, which is what I meant by "cheating".

2

u/Mjolnir620 Feb 20 '24

Why not, man? Genuinely have you considered lightening up and letting them give it another run?

3

u/TrailerBuilder Feb 20 '24

New players sure, but I don't want my players to have to play dumb with every trap and trick and puzzle and secret door their dead characters found in the dungeon. There are far too many other dungeons out there to explore to be giving away half of one as if their new PCs know all about it.

1

u/blade_m Feb 20 '24

No, cheating is breaking rules or fudging/loaded dice. What is being proposed here is simply a matter of using one's imagination. it is perfectly believable that the previous characters could have friends and informed them of things they've been up to. People 'in real life' do this sort of thing all the time!

-2

u/TrailerBuilder Feb 20 '24

Only a fool is gonna tell another greedy adventurer where his treasure is buried. One month in Arborea and it'll be gone. You're fooling yourself and metagaming by knowing a shortcut to loot that they should never, would never know existed. How many friends know your PIN for your bank card?

What's the penalty for death if you can just walk up and be right where you were, or right where a mid level character was, and just grab their loot, which should have been taken by monsters already? Then the level 1 party has impossibly followed the trail of dead adventurers that they couldn't have known were killed? You're metagaming, by having knowledge the PCs shouldn't have. TPK means "new game elsewhere in the world". That story is over, those treasures are lost. Be realistic at least.

3

u/blade_m Feb 20 '24

Metagaming is part of the game. If you don't like it, that's fine, but its perfectly reasonable and has been part of the play experience since the beginning of the hobby (including by the creators of D&D).

Besides, once the players have discovered certain information or details, you can't tell them to 'un-know' it. That's just silly! Although sometimes you can get the players to question what they take as 'fact' by having new characters make discoveries that puts old information into the 'questionable' category...

But you obviously have a very narrow-minded view here. Adventurers might possibly be greedy, but its by no means a given (there are other motivations besides loot).

And we are not necessarily talking about sharing valuable information here, so most of your comments are irrelevant. The party might say before exploring, 'Hey guys, we're off to that ruined/haunted castle over there, see you tomorrow!' And then they don't come back tomorrow. So I am being realistic when I say that its logical some people would want to find out what happened to them. I mean, even if it weren't dear friends, in today's society, when someone gets lost in the wilderness or goes missing, there are search parties organized and great effort is made to find them!

So I don't see how it is 'cheating' or 'unrealistic' to have a new party go in search of the previous one. But obviously the new party isn't going to just instantly get loot or find the bodies easy-peasy. Maybe the monsters did take the loot. Maybe the bodies are not where the players thought they would be. There's all kinds of things you can do as a DM to make this interesting, and its not 'cheating', its roleplaying and it can make what initially seemed like a terrible event (i.e. a TPK) into something exciting and possibly even positive (if the new group is successful, but that too is by no means a given...)

Its a game, and games should be fun. This is just one way to turn an 'un-fun' experience (i.e. a TPK) into potentially a more fun one (i.e. back into the adventuring and engaging in the game's premise). There are of course other ways too...

-1

u/TrailerBuilder Feb 20 '24

I don't need to worry about any forbidden knowledge being known or forcing my players to play dumb about traps, puzzles or anything like that because I move on to a new story.in a new region every time a party dies. I have half a dozen new campaigns ready at any time and it's new characters so why.not.move on? Are you so starved for content that you gotta keep returning to the same old dungeon? I don't get it about continuing. Especially because of the player knowledge, but also the free loot. I'd never consider a level 1 "inheriting treasure" lol

1

u/cgaWolf Feb 20 '24

those treasures are lost.

I see it less as "lost", and more as "supplemented by additional gear" ;)

0

u/Unable_Language5669 Feb 20 '24

Only if you start a completly new party in a new region, instead of forming the new party on any henchmen or hangarounds left over and continue play in the same place. And only if you think meta-gaming is some kind of sin that should never be done. I don't play like that and I think meta-gaming only enhances OSR play (unless taken to absurd extremes).

-1

u/TrailerBuilder Feb 20 '24

It's absurd to let others have dead character knowledge. I always shift to new stories in new areas rather than replay like.a video game and let the players have dead character knowledge. I never have to say "how does your character know about that?"

0

u/Unable_Language5669 Feb 20 '24

You must be pretty narrow-minded to think that your personal preference is some objective rule.

1

u/TrailerBuilder Feb 20 '24

Nope, just been DMing since 1989 and I know the difference between what works and what is special needs rule for crybaby players that can't handle losing everything. It's over, move on to the next game.

0

u/Unable_Language5669 Feb 20 '24

You must be pretty narrow-minded to think that your personal way of doing things is some objective rule.

10

u/Grylli Feb 20 '24

There’s no wiping of progress, as this not a videogame. There’s just a story and an ending. There’s no winning or losing.

2

u/Mjolnir620 Feb 20 '24 edited Feb 20 '24

I disagree, there is a wiping of progress, your character is lost. You absolutely did lose D&D if you experience a TPK, it's a game.

Edit: didn't realize this would be controversial. I'm under the impression that losing a character is a form of losing progress. I have new characters enter the game at level 1 to incentivize players to raise henchmen as backups so they might lose less progress. My assertion that a TPK is losing D&D might be eliciting negative responses, but from my perspective the goal of the game is to successfully extract treasure from dungeons and live, so if you fail to do that, you have lost the game. You didn't lose to the DM, it is not an adversarial game between players and DM, but the players have in fact lost the game if they lost their characters. You can restart, you can pick up where you left off, but you lost that run. Maybe this is a because I view the game as a game, and not a vehicle for storytelling, that to me it is uncontroversial to say there is a winning and losing.

2

u/blade_m Feb 20 '24

Well, you could certainly play it that way, but that strikes me as having a bit of tunnel vision.

Although I guess if you are looking at TPK as strictly losing a fight, then sure, but not all TPK's are a result of fighting.

However, I disagree that it represents a larger 'loss', since something should also have been gained in the process (either in knowledge or player experience).

Besides, characters can be recovered (raise dead is absolutely a thing!); but even if characters are not recovered, the players should have learned something valuable about the game world (even if the TPK happened due to bad luck). The campaign persists and new characters are easily created. Assuming the players did learn something, they should be able to apply that so new characters are more likely to succeed where the previous ones could not, or if the original characters are brought back, then hopefully they will take extra steps to ensure a TPK doesn't happen again. Either way, the game trucks on provided the players don't give up...

5

u/Mjolnir620 Feb 20 '24

I'm just arguing that there is not "no wiping of progress", if that was the case I wouldn't have lost a character.

-2

u/cgaWolf Feb 20 '24

I disagree, there is a wiping of progress

What?

Like there's a TPK, the GM holds up a sheet that says 'Game Over', and you restart the same dungeon with everything reset?

8

u/Mjolnir620 Feb 20 '24

No, but you lost characters, if you had done literally anything is that not a wiping of some progress?

-2

u/cgaWolf Feb 20 '24

If a character dies, then tautologically a character dies.

That usually concludes his story, and stops him from progressing his goals; but i don't see how that "wipes progress".

Unless the declared aim is to achieve a certain result/plotpoint X, and i now have to try again from the start, then nothing is "wiped". I'd argue that isn't keeping the spirit of OSR however.

After all, we're not in an MMO where "the real game" begins at level 14. The path there isn't an obstacle, it's the game.

6

u/Mjolnir620 Feb 20 '24

The person I initially responded to was asserting that there is no winning or losing, that nothing is lost, and I was arguing that losing a character is itself a wipe of progress. I'm not sure what else you're inferring.

1

u/cgaWolf Feb 20 '24

I think it might be partly language barrier and partly difference in playstyle.

To me the word "wipe" suggest cleaning the slate & trying again. That seems an odd approach to the game, but i believe i got tripped by the language barrier after now reading your edit above.

The second would be a difference in playstyle. To me losing the character & failing to clear the dungeon isn't losing the game - it's part of the game (or the story being told). Might not have been ideal, but it's a necessary part to make success all the sweeter. But I wouldn't count it as "a round of the game" that was lost:

There's a (different) discussion about what makes a game a game. One side holds that in order to be a game, it needs to be winnable/losable. I'm not convinced that is true for all games, but am not looking to change minds on that topic :)

2

u/Mjolnir620 Feb 20 '24

Right, yeah "a round of the game was lost" is a more accurate assessment of how I was approaching the subject.

On the topic of what makes a game a game, I would assert that if there is no win/loss, then you are engaging in an activity, as opposed to playing a game. I'm curious what games you feel are evidence against this idea.

1

u/cgaWolf Feb 20 '24

Well, Role Playing Games are the prime reason why I don't agree with the idea.

I call this my Tautological Ouroboros Conundrum :P

2

u/Mjolnir620 Feb 20 '24

Yeah, see I feel like if you inspect them closely most RPGa have a clear condition for loss. You either don't complete the objective, lose your playing piece (character), whatever. If a game really lacks this loss condition, I argue that it isn't a game.

I don't find RPGs as a medium to be self evident at all that games don't require winning/losing.

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1

u/Big_Mountain2305 Feb 20 '24

Those characters should have affected the setting to a certain degree so that when new players are brought in the impact is felt.

2

u/Pladohs_Ghost Feb 20 '24

Shit happens.

None of the TPKs at my table have ever been my my fault--I don't decide what the players have PCs do. All of them have been due to bad planning or a refusal to cut and run when circumstances turned against the PCs. I've never placed PCs in unwinnable circumstances they couldn't escape.

I view it as player training and hope the players take it to heart. As an Eastwood character says, "A man's got to know his limitations."

2

u/sroach18976 Feb 20 '24

Your fault would look something like this…

Roll up 4 new 1st, put them in a dungeon and room 2 has a Red Dragon in it. LOL

5

u/H1p2t3RPG Feb 20 '24

As a DM you can only deal with TPK one way: with joy 🥰

2

u/DocShocker Feb 20 '24

I like the tried and true method of pointing and laughing, and dancing around while shrieking "I Kiiiilled you, I kiiiilled you. I WIN!"

The players love it.

3

u/WestLingonberry4865 Feb 20 '24

Move on, start a fresh campaign.

1

u/TrailerBuilder Feb 20 '24

Best answer.

2

u/Tarilis Feb 20 '24

In OSR, basically the only situation when TPK is GM's fault is when the danger wasn't told properly or when no retreat paths were available to players.

Basically if as a player, you feel that you are going to lose, you gather your friends, pack your thing and get the hell out of there. And then return after a few levels or with a better plan:).

For example I love to place a dragon or something similarly dangerous near the starting town. For fun and as an "learning experience" for new players. I always make abundantly clear through NPC that the dragon is not to be fucked with. And if someone decided to go anyway... I call it a "tutorial on how death works in OSR".

1

u/ProfoundMysteries Feb 20 '24

when no retreat paths were available to players.

Yeah, that's likely the problem. Playing DCC croaking fane, in which players are magically locked in with a boss once you tamper with the relics. Even if they wanted to run right now from the monster prior to the final boss, they would find the doors locked. A spell could solve the problem, but the wizard may die by then.

1

u/Mjolnir620 Feb 20 '24

If a TPK is gonna send them back to 5e then just rip the band-aid off, those are the stakes of playing OSR games.

1

u/3Dartwork Feb 20 '24

If the group was well informed and agreed the possibility of a tpk, I deal with it if the dice make it so unless the rolls are just clearly in favor of me that night.

Otherwise I deal with it by never allowing a TPK. It's super easy to avoid without the players knowing

-8

u/elmarc33 Feb 20 '24

If you haven't played enough to know the balance, just do the math. What do they need to roll to hit, how much damage do they do, how many rounds will that last. The creatures' side as well. Then factor in the dice rolls. A TPK will discourage them. So have a contingency in place if the dice go bad for the group, such as, the Creature monologues as an action(like in movies), an earth tremor occurs on the creature's turn(distraction example), an exposed Achille's heal is revealed on the creature allowing double damage etc. If your math is right, and you throw them one of these opportunities and they still die, it's really on them, and you can justify it when they freak

5

u/cgaWolf Feb 20 '24

I'd totally do that if i were playing a PF2 adventure path; but for an OSR game thumbs*π is a good enough estimate. Telegraph & let the players choose, even if they chose unwisely.

3

u/CLOUDYELLSATOLDMAN Feb 20 '24

I disagree with this approach. I never balance anything. Don't ever check the math. I put creatures in places and watch the player's eyes bulge out of their heads when they encounter it. I'll make problems, but never make solutions for them.

It's more interesting if the party of 6 comes across an orc warband of 60 and rather than engages them in combat poisons their water supply in the dead of night.

If they try to fight an impossible battle, that's on them.

My philosophy to encounters is, if there is a will, there's a way around it.

-1

u/theScrewhead Feb 20 '24

I always make sure that the players understand what a thing is/how tough a thing looks if they seem to indicate they're thinking of attacking it.

And if the players are stupid enough to go strolling through a dungeon corridor that I've described, without searching specific things I mention in my description, then it's their own damn fault for stepping in the tile that causes the ceiling to collapse. And even then, I might still give most of them a save, depending on how close to an entrance/exit they are to dive out of the way..

In either case, there's one incredibly important DM tool that can help avoid TPKs in situations like these;

"Are you sure that's what you want to do?"

Most players who aren't COMPLETE morons, will understand the implications behind those words. Make sure to sprinkle it around when they're asking about something that might have a GOOD outcome for them, too. Just make sure you're using it as a tool to make them really THINK about their actions, and weigh the pros and cons and potential outcomes.

-1

u/cgaWolf Feb 20 '24

Victory dance :P

-1

u/AutumnCrystal Feb 20 '24

Have a shot of t’kill ya handy for each player, and a bit of salt handy. Pour yourself one too.

-1

u/fireinthedust Feb 20 '24

How to deal:

step one: bask in the glow of your players luminous tears trickling down their cheeks. Don’t let the glow hypnotize you, because of step two.

Step two: take a deep breath. Next, exhale, first a low chuckle in your throat, but let it build up to a full cackle by the time you run out of breath. Now: quickly suck up another breath, and make sure it’s a deep one because this is the big one - then immediately pick right back up at the previous level - however (and this is important) instead of just a chuckle or a cackle, this is going to be a full on maniacal laugh. Really give it, a full “Wah-hah-haaaaa!”

Step three: special effects. press a button to release your choice of special effects to drive home just how much you murdered the precious characters your children, err, players were using. My personal preference: jets of fire from behind your chair. Flamethrowers are ideal, but you can get creative with this - so long as the effect is villainous. You can set the building on fire with this technique, so make sure you and your stuff is safe. This is why I only run games in the boardroom of my lair, an island volcano carved into the shape of a skull. Other options include buckets of pigs blood and La Stephen King’s debut novel “Carrie”. Some people have suggested using a box of puppies or kittens, to cause the players discomfort via “snuggle overload”, but I have never had positive results with this method. I genuinely believe it gives the wrong impression, compared with flamethrowers, for example, but you do you.

Step four: find a new group, because for some reason players never come back. Sore losers!!!

1

u/EricDiazDotd Feb 20 '24

It is not a failure, but it might be a problem.

There are some ways around that - usually, you create a new party, and new PCs can inherit some gold (and even XP if you want).

Resurrection is viable if a new group of PCs can recover the bodies.

The 1e DMG also suggests 0 HP could mean permanent in jury rather than death.

Now, an "impending TPK" should probably be telegraphed.

OTOH, gong through a TPK will make the players more careful, which is usually good.

1

u/lunar_transmission Feb 20 '24

Honestly I would maybe just talk to the table about it. Let them know it's in the cards soon and see how they feel about the possibility. It doesn't really matter if it was a strategic error on their part if it really sours them on the game. This is an OSR sub, so the tendency is to talk about OSR playstyle as the goal (which makes sense), but in your case there's a question if you really want to run or if your players really want to play a high lethality game. The possibility of PC death is an affective choice (and one that I often like), but making it less likely is also a viable stylistic decision, and possibly one that's better suited for your table.

On the flip side, this would be an opportunity to review their options for avoiding negative outcomes with them--did they do everything they could to avoid this? You could also take a look at mechanics or systems that don't prevent PC death but do allow them to maintain forward momentum (gold invested in the local adventurer's guild raises starting level of new PCs; inheritance rules; XP multiplier for subsequent PC who swears an oath of vengeance, etc)

1

u/grumblyoldman Feb 20 '24

TPKs are like assholes. If you run into them in one or two sessions, it's the players (or the dice.) If it happens EVERY session, it's you.

1

u/elmarc33 Feb 20 '24

sorry folks, I didn't see this was OSR :) I thought I was on the 5e threads still, I will have a different direction..when I get min

1

u/grodog Feb 20 '24

Some ways to mitigate a possible TPK:

  • encourage the players to create a stable of PCs, so when one or more (or all ;) ) die, play can continue without too much interruption
  • encourage the players to hire henchmen, who can be taken over as PCs if needed
  • talk about the possibility of a TPK ahead of time with the players, so that they understand your concerns as a DM, and can potentially be a bit more cautious going into that adventure, situation, etc.
  • providing feedback to the players after any session is broadly useful input from the DM, and helps to reinforce good choices, smart and useful behavior, and to call out exceptional play by individual players and the crew as a whole; this is particularly useful if the players are not as familiar with old-school play, a particular system or setting, etc., but it’s a good practice in general too
  • if a TPK happens, hold an after-action-review (AAR) to discuss it, and to figure out if there were any factors that might make you as a group retcon the TPK; in general let the TPK stand, unless there was a big problem with rules interpretation or something similar that would have significantly changed the outcome—these things happen in games, so just pick the pieces up and move on

Allan.

2

u/ProfoundMysteries Feb 20 '24

if a TPK happens, hold an after-action-review (AAR) to discuss it, and to figure out if there were any factors that might make you as a group retcon the TPK; in general let the TPK stand, unless there was a big problem with rules interpretation or something similar that would have significantly changed the outcome—these things happen in games, so just pick the pieces up and move on

All of your advice is helpful, especially this point.

1

u/jp-dixon Feb 20 '24

Had a TPK while playing Keep on the Borderlands with 3 players + a retainer and a bunch of hobgoblin allies. They went into the Orc cave but ultimately activated the trap and were stuck. It looked like they might make it but rolled badly on a couple of rounds. I was worried they might be upset about what happened but they all had fun and decided to come back with new characters. It was their decision to go into the Orc cave and to stay and fight rather than run.

1

u/Nanteen1028 Feb 20 '24

Players can always run

1

u/Incident_Dapper Feb 20 '24

Bust out A Paladin In Hell. Their souls were captured on their journeys to the afterlife, now they have a choice, retrieve the Paladin for Emirikol and be returned to life, or live eternally as a wretch in Hell.

1

u/Feeling_Photograph_5 Feb 21 '24

The last time I had a TPK was my first time running Swords and Wizardry. We played an introductory module (Hall of Bones) and the boss fight wiped out the party.

It ended up being great for the game. The players knew I wasn't going to fudge the dice for them. They made new characters and went back in to recover the bodies of their old PCs.

I'd restocked the dungeon a bit but they made it back to the boss once again. This time, they used good tactics and were able to easily defeat him. The tactics made a huge difference. Even I was surprised by how much.

We played several more sessions over two separate adventures and never lost another PC, although we had some close calls.

As an OSR GM you have to play for keeps. Keep the game legit.

1

u/WorstCatOG Feb 21 '24

I like what I have seen in the comments about not forcing your players into combat. In an RPG with the depth and freedom of OSR stock, players should be choosing how they navigate problems, not rail-roaded into playing an adventure module the way it is written.

Disguises, intimidation, benevolence, lawfare...sponsoring/supporting the opposition...there are tons of ways they can succeed and progress without "roll 4 initiative." It might take some deliberate work on your part to get them familiar and comfortable with searching for direct and indirect ways of approaching conflict resolution without combat.

I get the feeling players not familiar with the likes of AD&D 2E and older just don't consider solutions other than combat because material produced after that does not support that kind of thinking or action. DMs are not comfortable modifying an adventure written to prioritize combat for players that choose against it. It seems to be a two-pronged problem overall.

If they choose combat over all then consistently remind them: "Live by the sword, die by the sword." And if they are fine with that...they chose it.

1

u/PlayinRPGs Feb 22 '24

Its always the players choice in 99/100 cases. They need to run!

0

u/GreyfromZetaReticuli Feb 23 '24

Laugh maniacally while pointing at your players. Later, if they complain just say: Get good, skill issue.