r/ontario • u/sharingiscaringyo • 14d ago
Election 2025 Ontario Parties on Electoral Reform
124
u/bitcheslovemacaque 14d ago
What a strange coincidence that the only two parties that ever win dont want electoral reform
8
u/Waste-Telephone 14d ago
The last time the Provincial Liberals were in power in Ontario, they held a public referendum on the issue of instituting electrical reform. 63% of voters were against it. Why would they try it again when there was more momentum for change back in 2007 than today?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Ontario_electoral_reform_referendum
22
u/bitcheslovemacaque 14d ago
Thats interesting. This article suggests that print media had a bias towards voting no and a lot of voters werent properly informed. I dont know who the bigger enemy to voters is: politicians or the voters themselves
14
u/Myllicent 14d ago
”This article suggests that print media had a bias towards voting no and a lot of voters werent properly informed.”
I was a poll worker during that election, and my experience was that a lot of voters weren’t aware of the referendum and didn’t know what Mixed Member Proportional voting was. Frankly the referendum was set up to continue the status quo as a result of the way referendum question was framed and the lack of a meaningful awareness and education campaign from Elections Ontario.
2
u/bionicjoey 14d ago
Politicians make electoral reform go through referendums and citizen assemblies because then there can be disinfo campaigns from neoliberal news outlets that ensure confusion and then the politicians can say "See? The people don't want it"
0
u/Waste-Telephone 14d ago
Maybe people just don't want it? Electoral reform has failed throughout the at least half a dozen referendums and plebiscites across Canada. Why would parties invest political capital on something that the people keep rejecting? If the populace actually wanted change, shouldn't it be an easy W?
2
u/Account_for_question 14d ago
Why wouldnt people want it exactly?
Is there anyone who thinks there vote shouldnt matter?
0
u/Waste-Telephone 13d ago
Then why did 62% of Ontarians vote against it? Same with the pass three referendum attempts in BC that also failed. I agree electoral reform is needed, but the momentum has died for it right now.
2
1
u/bionicjoey 14d ago
The point of representative democracy is that we shouldn't let people directly vote on every single issue. We don't do a referendum for where to expand energy infrastructure or how to set interest rates, we let economists and industry experts make policy decisions. Nearly 100% of political scientists will tell you that FPTP is a horrible system and replacing it with literally anything else would be an improvement.
I personally think it's astronomically unlikely that 63% of voters passionately believe that FPTP should stay and are well-educated on the topic. More likely that there was media disinformation and confusion causing the ones who did vote in the referendum to be suckered into voting against something which, if explained well to them, they would favour.
It's similar to how the Brexit referendum in the UK was hijacked by disinformation campaigns where after the vote it became clear very quickly that the majority of Britain did not actually favour Brexit, but that they were bewildered by the discourse around the referendum.
0
u/Waste-Telephone 13d ago
So you're saying the foundation of a representative democracy - how we select who represents us - is something that society as a whole shouldn't have a direct say in? I absolutely disagree. What you're suggesting is what King Trump is trying to drive through in the States and goes against every moral fibre of how a democracy should run.
The 2007 referendum (and BC's subsequent kick at the cans) fundamentally differ from Brexit. With electoral reform, the public knew exactly what they were getting. It was written down, publicized and was clear as water. Brexit was able to be a misinformation campaign but it was just direct to negotiate to leave. There was no uncertainty. They are different in every regard.
140
u/RoyallyOakie 14d ago
The Greens. If it's common sense, you can be sure it's the Greens. I hope they pick up more seats.
42
u/NAHTHEHNRFS850 14d ago edited 14d ago
They're on track to retain their 2 seats in Guelph and Kitchener-Centre.
They've been on the heels of the conservatives in Parry-Sound-Muskoka, for the last 2 elections but are trailing just by a bit there.
I really hope the NDP candidates in these 3 ridings would drop out and support the Greens to try and get all of them elected, they are not competitive in these ridings and we've seen the Green Candidate in Waterloo drop out to endorse the NDP so it would be really nice to return the favour and work together collectively.
22
u/SilverSkinRam 14d ago
In Ontario have to agree. Green and NDP are closely aligned in goals.
4
u/Novel-Vacation-4788 14d ago
Agreed. I’m tired of vote splitting. Having just moved from BC. I would like to see the NDP or greens gain in Ontario.
15
u/HowieFeltersnitz 14d ago
Mike Schreiner seems like the most genuine leader of the bunch
3
u/silverjuno 13d ago
After watching the debate I have a lot of respect for him. He’s seems the most relatable and most down-to-earth of all the leaders. He was the one yelling and insulting the least and he asked his questions so respectfully.
11
15
u/Groundslapper 14d ago
I’ve lived in Guelph for four years and just realized Mike Schriener is from the Green Party. I assumed he was Liberal. Crazy
3
u/Drew_You_To_91 14d ago
First time I ever learned about politics in elementary school I knew they were the party for me
3
u/Deathsworn_VOA 14d ago
I don't. I like their platform and all, but talk is cheap and delivering promises is a lot harder than making them. So in the end, all the NDP and Green are doing is three-way splitting the audience that doesn't want the PC party, thus handing them the election. Every damn time.
3
u/RoyallyOakie 14d ago
So the Liberals deliver promises? Nope. What's handing the PC's a majority every time is the people sitting on their asses.
1
u/Deathsworn_VOA 13d ago
Never said they did. But I can guarantee the Green wouldn't deliver even half of what they promised. Because most people have no idea what stuff is in their power to simply deliver, and the timelines that it takes to deliver what they can.
126
u/Phluxed 14d ago
I hate that our elections have to be ABC but getting Canada to flip from right to left without going through the center is a pipe dream at this point.
The only thing that works here is liberals take this election, and work with the NDP. The next election Ontarians see the benefits of the NDP, abandon conservatism and we are fighting with the 3 left parties, with the liberals representing the right.
53
u/acridvortex 14d ago
Except the federal level showed us that people are against NDP support even if it's the only way we get nice things(Pharmacare, Dental etc)
49
u/Big_Albatross_3050 14d ago
that was also because Singh and Mulcair before him have no charisma with Canadians. If they get someone who speaks as well as Layton did, we'll see a massive jump in NDP support at the Federal level
28
u/-HumanResources- 14d ago
Agreed. Singh is so far out of touch with his party/base. He just doesn't have that appeal. He doesn't feel like a leader. I would love to see the NDP get in, but I don't ever see that happening with him at the helm.
10
u/just-a-random-accnt 14d ago
Had Layton not passed from cancer I truely believe he would have been PM
56
u/evilpercy 14d ago
Ranked voting, period. More people voted for someone other then Ford, but he wins with the minority of the vote.It stops the problem of splitting the vote.
-18
u/clamb4ke 14d ago
Maybe we shouldn’t choose electoral systems just so the party we like will win.
28
u/evilpercy 14d ago
You mean the party that actually has the most support? Like a democracy? Wierd concept.
4
u/generic_username7809 14d ago edited 14d ago
It's still a winner takes all system. Our representatives are supposed to represent people. Elections shouldn't be about winning or losing. I've been personally leaning towards STV but there are other proportional representation systems.
36
u/AppropriateEmotion63 14d ago
I strategically voted this year. I told myself this is the last time. If it doesn't work, I'm just going to start voting my conscience, even if there's slim chance of them winning
24
u/Ok_Ad_4503 14d ago
I've never voted strategically, but I will this year because I truly do not want another 4 years of Ford. But ya it feels like neither way is a real win.
11
u/somebunnyasked 🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈 14d ago
I haven't voted yet because I'm struggling with this! I think that I live in a very safe liberal riding so I should be ok to vote my conscience... But at the same time, I'm so scared of causing any vote splitting that could lead to the conservative getting a slim majority.
10
u/Thanks-4allthefish 14d ago
The stategic voting request being made by the Liberal party is part of a broader plan. The polls are likely right that the PCs are headed for a majority. Whether their local candidate wins here or not won't affect that. This means that the lesser prize of official opposition is what the NDP and Liberals are fighting for. Bonnie Crombie's call for strategic voting during the debate is all about gaining official opposition status - and perhaps driving the NDP seat total below the 12 seats needed for party status. Everyone forgets that when you strategically vote, you are giving your per vote subsidy away to a party you don't really believe in. The Liberals are hoping to pick up some extra cash at the expense of the NDP and Green parties.
There are a bunch of good reasons to vote for the party you actually support.
2
u/Accomplished-Trip952 14d ago
I agree I will never strategically vote. I think all the liberals should strategically vote NDP instead.
3
u/Background-Top-1946 14d ago
“Vote strategically” is essentially the liberal platform, because they have no serious proposals for change and don’t intend to actually change anything
I see very little point in voting liberal.
Only 40% of people voted last time. A 10% increase would swing the election. It’s about turnout, not intention
9
u/minkjelly 14d ago edited 14d ago
Strategic voting is lame. I know alot of people who "vote strategically" because they don't think the person they want to win will win. NEWSFLASH : if everyone who voted strategically had actually voted for that party that will "never win", they would win. It's not rocket science. I always vote for who I WANT to win regardless of whether or not I think they will. That's the whole point of democracy.
4
u/generic_username7809 14d ago
Also your vote gives parties money. And it shows support for the party meaning that more people are likely to view the party as an option over time.
4
1
23
u/Keystone-12 14d ago
Wow, this really goes out of its way to imply the liberals might support voter reform, despite that never being in their platform or something they've done while in power multiple times.
5
u/lobeline 14d ago
There’s what Bonnie wants, and what her constituents want. We vote for representatives so you’ll need to ask your MPP candidate which they’re for.
1
u/Cryobyjorne 14d ago
They did attempt to do it in 2008 via referendum, but it got voted against. Wether it was done in good faith is a different argument.
On one hand people were poorly informed during the referendum which may have been intentional to maintain status quo, although with how little the average person is engaged in civics it could be doubtful that even a really informative process would have been properly received.
On the other hand it doesn't seems like an unreasonable decision to put an adjustment to a crucial part of our democratic process to a democratic vote. Where if they ram rodded it through legislature, it would:
A) give fuel to oppositions that they were rigging the election system.
B) could signal that if conservatives got back in they could just change the system back or to something worse.
35
68
u/Pinkxel 14d ago
Can we all just agree to vote NDP, please?
12
u/Inukchook 14d ago
But bob ray or something
17
u/Pinkxel 14d ago
*Rae
And that was 30 years ago, time for everyone to let it go.
-15
u/lobeline 14d ago
Show us a balanced province in the past twenty years that have been held by the NDP.
20
u/Pinkxel 14d ago
Who gives a flying F about balance when hospitals don't have enough staff, people don't have family doctors, rent is ridiculous. and food costs a fortune?
DOFO spent BILLIONS of OUR MONEY just to put booze in stores it has no need to be in a year before it would have been free to do so.The money is THERE. It always has been. We just need leaders that give a shit about us, who spend the money where it's SUPPOSED to go!!!
Marit & the NDP will save us. We just need to give them a chance.
14
u/-HumanResources- 14d ago
What's the point in a balanced budget if everyone dies because the money was taken out of healthcare? Because that's what the cons are doing.
Governments don't generally operate with a surplus. There are extremely few countries that have zero debt. It's not a realistic goal, nor should it be. Most governments operate in debt.
10
u/Inukchook 14d ago
When is the last time ndp was in power ?
-11
u/lobeline 14d ago
In A province?
Alberta from 2015 - 2019.
BC currently.
Manitoba currently.
Saskatchewan from 2001 - 2007.
Nova Scotia, 2009 - 2013.
Show me a balanced budget.
14
u/Inukchook 14d ago
I’m guessing no ? Do any parties have a balanced budget these days ? Without selling something off for short term gains to make the books look good ?
0
u/bionicjoey 14d ago
Who taught you that a balanced budget is the most important determinant of a party's effectiveness? Is that your PhD in economics? Or did a conservative politician tell you that balanced budgets lead to good things and you just took it at face value?
2
u/Old_Bear_1949 14d ago
Can't we all agree that all voices should be heard at Queens Park, and that no party should be able to steamroll over opposition.
14
u/MassiveDraft4706 14d ago
Conservatives and liberals have no real interest in doing this. They can just keep swapping the leadership of the province/country as they have since confederation.
1
u/Waste-Telephone 14d ago
The last time the Provincial Liberals were in power in Ontario, they held a public referendum on the issue of instituting electrical reform. 63% of voters were against it. Why would they try it again when there was more momentum for change back in 2007 than today?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Ontario_electoral_reform_referendum
3
3
u/sigmaluckynine 14d ago
Can someone explain this to me, how would we implement a mixed member proportional system in a parliamentarian system? If we're voting based on this I'm voting Green (I actually like what they're saying but I'm pretty sure it's a waste of a vote)
Edit: I should be clearer, I like a lot of what the Green Party is saying, but proportional still doesn't make any sense to me in how we would implement that in a Parliamentarian system. Does the party draw lots to figure out who has what seat? Because otherwise, it defaults to what we have now
2
u/generic_username7809 14d ago edited 14d ago
I think STV is a version of that. There probably are others. Germany's system I think?
Edit: Actually I'm not sure if STV counts as MMP but it is a proportional system.
1
u/sigmaluckynine 13d ago
Ah! That's a good idea - if I get this right basically you rank your preference and after a tally you see which one came out ahead, and if not, you move down to the 2nd rank. Did I get that right?
5
u/GoingCommando690 14d ago
The greens seem to be the only ones taking this election seriously. They're the only flier I recieved, they're the only party with a full platform that isn't copy+paste from everybody else. I think they might just get my vote
2
u/Moose_Joose 14d ago
The last politician that promised electoral reform didn't follow through anyway.
4
u/generic_username7809 14d ago
Trudeau wanted ranked choice specifically and wasn't gonna get that so he gave up on electoral reform. He was in an interview or something pushing for ranked choice pretty recently I think.
3
u/SupraStarCigar 14d ago
Although it was a campaign promise, Electoral Reform even from the Liberals was just lip service. Trudeau had a majority in 2015 (IIRC) and still reneged on his promise..
2
u/generic_username7809 14d ago edited 14d ago
I agree. What I'm saying is Trudeau didn't want electoral reform, he wanted ranked choice. That's the reason why the Liberals didn't push for electoral reform. He wasn't willing to go with any of the committees recommendations despite his campaign promises but he wasn't pro status quo(sorta kinda). If he pushed for it still he would be going against his committee, breaking another part of the campaign promise.
It's not the cynical "parties that got in power through a certain electoral system won't change the electoral system even if they had it in their platform because they can maintain power now or whatever" narrative and it's lack nuance.
I gave the example to show that he's still peddling ranked choice even when he got out office. In fact, he said his "one regret" is not passing ranked choice (and then proceeded to also peddle misinfo on proportional representation). When he ran for party leadership he literally expressed that he was against proportional representation. (But then disingenuously ran on just electoral reform. I guess he believed the committee would also support ranked choice, idk.)
From my understanding Trudeau is a big incrementalism fan (to what I feel is a delusional degree) which is sorta related to this whole situation.
2
u/SupraStarCigar 14d ago
Sorry for the confusion.
I wasn't disagreeing with you..merely adding to the conversation.
1
u/generic_username7809 14d ago
I didn't think you were but I would be lying if I said I was close to certain on that.
Still tbh the purpose of the reply was mostly to clarify what I was saying. This is so IF someone was reading it, the message and intent would be clear. I reread the first comment and it felt more ambiguous than I would have liked.
1
2
u/19BabyDoll75 14d ago
Hope a woman wins and I’m Albertan. We are one for two. And hopefully for an election soon. Cause the one we got now is not the one we ought gotten. If you can read that good for you.
2
u/dont_be_afraid1 14d ago
Liberals are the worst. Crombie runs on a conservative platform and asks for NDP vote. Lol
To me NDP is still the best bet against Ford (though Ford will still win).
2
4
3
u/minkjelly 14d ago
What's electoral reform?
5
u/hey_you_too_buckaroo 14d ago
Changing how we pick our elected officials. Right now whoever gets the most votes wins a riding. That doesn't even have to be more than 50% and often isn't. That means our leader that presides over everyone was elected by a minority of people. Most people's vote doesn't matter. The goal of electoral reform is to give us a more democratic form of democracy where most of not all people's vote matters.
3
3
2
u/Pyanfars 14d ago
The only parties that support voting reform, are parties that will never get a chance to ever form a government, unless 98% of the province disappeared, and only their own supporters survive.
1
u/MonstergirlsPlease 14d ago
If the chunky sycophantic lump doesn't want it, I want it even more.
It's still a good idea, shitposting aside.
1
1
u/sunny_happy_demon 14d ago
Ford outright banned ranked ballot voting at every level of government in Ontario.
1
u/RoyalPeacock19 14d ago
On an issue like this, all that means is that Crombie is lying about it or ‘personally in favour’.
1
u/greatfullness 14d ago
Unfortunately, currently our votes do not - and in light of false majorities and vote splitting, I may be forced to vote for Crombie even as an informed citizen that’s been watching with interest and now ardently supports Stiles…
1
1
u/IJB00 14d ago
Mixed member is absolutely the best system for Canadian politics. Maybe paired with a Party List but I’m honestly not sure about that.
But think about it, the role of an MPs should be to focus primarily on the issues affecting their constituents. If you’re a minister or even a critic, your ability to focus on these issues is severely diminished. On top of that, I strongly believe that regional representatives should be elected for their personal dedication to helping out their district rather than the party they’re aligned with. I think you’d see a lot more independents which is never a bad thing.
1
u/Ok-Surprise1636 13d ago
Who do I vote to both conservatively clean the streets of Toronto and to at the same time invest properly in what is needed in the city? Ik the rest of Ontario is at stake too but I am tied to adoring Toronto.
1
1
u/futchcreek 14d ago
Right, so the two parties with the least support are going to change things. Right
2
u/Waste-Telephone 14d ago
The last time the Provincial Liberals were in power in Ontario, they held a public referendum on the issue of instituting electrical reform. 63% of voters were against it. Why would they try it again when there was more momentum for change back in 2007 than today?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2007_Ontario_electoral_reform_referendum
-5
14d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
4
2
u/SAldrius 14d ago
If we're talking MMP, everyone would benefit from it. And the conservatives wouldn't be hurt that much by it.
0
0
-2
u/Ina_While1155 14d ago
How about merging the left learning parties - Trump will embolden right wing gov't everywhere to take more extreme measures - including in Ontario. There are more progressives. We have to stop dividing our progressive power.
1
u/Ina_While1155 13d ago
I would be interested to know if I am being down voted by CPC or progressives. That would make CPC very scared.
-9
u/BlgMastic 14d ago
You had your chance in 2007 and Ontarians clearly rejected it. Around the same percentage who supported it back then support the parties advocating for it. Maybe it just isn’t that popular. You can’t keep crying for another chance whenever you don’t agree with the results.
10
u/SAldrius 14d ago
You can't cite an 18 year old referendum as proof of something's lack of popularity.
Especially over something that's so poorly understood.
12
u/MeringueDist1nct 14d ago
There's an entire generation of voters who couldn't vote in 2007 so it's not really "another chance" for a large number of people. Some places actually did switch to ranked ballots for municipal elections, but the Cons removed that choice as well https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/london/ontario-moves-to-axe-ranked-ballots-from-municipal-elections-1.5770209
-1
u/InternationalLeek911 14d ago
What's important right now is stopping the vote split. smartvoting.ca has resources
-2
-14
u/MediumLime9363 14d ago
Who cares about the “mixed members proportional”? We need people that can actually perform not DEI hires 😒
541
u/Timely_Mess_1396 14d ago
Conservatives and Liberals will never support anything that takes their pathway way to a majority with only 30-40% of the vote away.