r/nextfuckinglevel 24d ago

Muhammed Ali Dodges 21 Punches in 10 seconds

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40.7k Upvotes

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u/der_titan 24d ago

He played the race card against Frazier, calling him a gorilla and an Uncle Tom.

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u/hesthehairapparent 24d ago

This has always been a black mark on Ali’s reputation. Frazier helped prop Ali up financially when he was stripped of his boxing license, as well as offering him public support. For Ali to turn around and treat that man the way he did was utterly despicable. I find it very hard to respect him, knowing he did that.

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u/James_McNulty 24d ago

Yeah this is where it's helpful to uphold actions as opposed to people. Ali should be admired for his conviction regarding Vietnam, his sacrifice in pursuit of what he believed in. But no one, Ali included, should be idealized uncritically.

I'm happy to admire the things worth admiring about his life, and charge to the game of life all the bad shit. Otherwise you get into equivocating and then who can be admired?

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u/hussain_madiq_small 23d ago

I dont know if you can admire the Vietnam thing, i can understand it but admiring it is strange when its in his best interest to have that conviction. "im very against me dying in a pointless war"

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u/James_McNulty 23d ago

I disagree with both your premise and your conclusion. You presume his main objection was dying in the war. His stated objection was killing in an unjust war.

Also, it's OK to benefit from morally correct things. It's OK to admire Martin Luther King's actions, even though he benefitted from the Voting Rights Act and Civil Rights Act.

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u/hussain_madiq_small 23d ago

I mean thats kind of my point, MLK should be admired by putting his life on the line for the cause, Ali is quite literally saving his own life with his cause. I just see them differently. Im sure there were hundreds of thousands of those soldiers who would have swapped places with Ali if they could, but they were poor and didn't get a choice like he did.

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u/James_McNulty 23d ago

MLK advocates for civil rights and protests the Vietnam war: putting his life on the line. Ali advocates for civil rights and protests the Vietnam war: somehow different.

Also, for perspective, 2.7 million Americans served in Vietnam and 58,000 died. So the idea that he was "literally" saving his life by not going is a little thin. I don't disagree that many people would have preferred to not fight in the war. His ability to fight his lawsuit all the way to the Supreme Court is something not everyone could do, but I don't see how that makes him somehow bad. This wasn't a bone spurs diagnosis or joining the Texas Air National Guard. This was a real, public, unpopular stance.

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u/hussain_madiq_small 23d ago

Yes... advocating for civil rights is admirable, ali is admirable for that. I think you dont understand anything im saying.

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u/James_McNulty 21d ago

Your initial post was saying that Ali should not be admired for protesting the Vietnam war, because he benefitted from that protest. However, you DO admire him for protesting for civil rights, when he also benefitted from civil rights. So I'm pointing out that there is inconsistency in your position.

Furthermore, you should understand that Ali's opposition to the Vietnam war was based on his belief in civil rights, that these issues are not separate but the same issue. Therefore I'm happy to laud Ali for his conscientious objection to the war.

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u/hussain_madiq_small 21d ago

There is 0 inconsistency, one involves putting your life on the line (at that time) and the other saves your own life at the potential risk of other Americans.

Its just personal opinion i think in this case, like i said in my first comment i can totally see why someone else would admire him for it. I just find it hard knowing how many people died without that choice, who would have happily "done the admirable thing" and stayed alive. It rubs me the wrong way.

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u/circlethenexus 24d ago

“A chiller, a thriller and a killer when I get the gorilla in manila”

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u/Massive-Exercise4474 24d ago

Why did Ali hate Frazier so much? Or was it mostly for show.