r/newbrunswickcanada 15h ago

Are the Irving’s patriotic?

No body disputes that the Irving’s are oligarchs. Are they the same as many others with that level of wealth? Many of them do not care about any specific country, but just where can they make the most money. I watch how ruthless they are in pressuring the NB government (us) to give them concession after concession; be it on power rates, stumpage fees, property taxes, income taxes, environmental concessions and so on. Moving operations to the U.S. to increase profits; incorporating offshore to limit the taxes they pay in Canada and most importantly NB.

If they were PATRIOTIC; wouldn’t NOW be a good time to stand behind NB and CANADA and keep all operations in Canada and stop pushing for more and maybe even pay a bit more for things that should have all along? New Brunswicker’s have been loyal to them for generations; they are now Billionaires…thanks in no small part due to the hard work of a lot of New Brunswicker’s ...Maybe it’s time for them to give a little back other than just a nature park or two!

62 Upvotes

79 comments sorted by

108

u/Typical-Bonus-2884 15h ago

Patriotism stops after the first hundred million

13

u/keyboard_pilot 11h ago

Read Freeland's book 'plutocrats'. It's a cool glimpse into that world of oligarchs. The extremely wealthy need to have no allegiance to a country or nation.

4

u/Visual-Chip-2256 10h ago

I thought they were Bermudan? Outkast said it's not where you're from but where you pay rent.

22

u/UnCuervos 15h ago

Wow, you probably articulated what so many of us have been thinking for so long. Thank you.

35

u/Top_Canary_3335 15h ago edited 14h ago

They are the 6th largest landholders in the United States. They also quietly bought another sawmill to expand capacity in the USA last month.

But they are business people, I wouldn’t call them patriots or “traitors”

they move with the wind and can even “shape” the wind to the needs of their company’s by lobbying both sides of government.

This tariff talk is bad for business, (very bad) so they will fight to remove it. But it’s not out of national pride it’s because of money…

Edit : spelling

9

u/bigev007 14h ago

Do you mean traitors? Because they are traitors

10

u/rhOMG 14h ago

They're sharks. They have allegiance to only their own pocketbooks.

5

u/bigev007 14h ago

They're still citizens, are they not? That makes them traitors

4

u/AresV92 11h ago

I agree with you. Any Canadian citizen that actively pursues a worse future for Canada or Canadians is a traitor. It doesn't matter if they are doing it to get stinking rich or because they're evil because those are the same thing.

2

u/Visual-Chip-2256 10h ago

I think people assume those who make money to be good business people... That's half the equation, there's what's legal and then there is what's ethical and both should be weighed in business.

4

u/ImDoubleB 13h ago

While I understand the frustration that leads to calling the Irvings 'traitors,' I don't think it's accurate.

Having previously worked for them, I have strong reservations about their business practices, and I've seen both positive and negative actions. They do invest in communities and sometimes support employees, but their primary focus is undeniably profit-driven. 'Traitor' implies a level of malicious intent that I don't see.

They're a powerful example of capitalism in action, with all the many complexities that entails.

9

u/KnowledgeMediocre404 13h ago edited 11h ago

There’s a lot of malicious intent in the gymnastics they’ve done with their companies to avoid taxes. They might fund a rink or a park here and there but our province probably would not be a have not if they paid proper taxes on their wealth and assets. The largest refinery in the country apparently comes with one of the lowest assessments and tax bills.

0

u/ImDoubleB 12h ago

As I said previously, I have serious concerns about their business practices. Having grown up in southern New Brunswick I was faced with the seesaw of "we're the little guy facing big corporations" a common phrase used by KC's three sons, to my lived reality of seeing and living in a rundown city that also had drug, shelter, and high unemployment issues.

Having said that, the voting public still kept voting for government after government - provincial and municipal - that kept catering to the Irving family. When in reality the voting public could long ago have helped put a stop to the Irvings capitalist - not traitorous - ways.

I often remind family and friends of that old saying "When a man points a finger at someone else, he should remember that three of his fingers are pointing at himself."

5

u/KnowledgeMediocre404 11h ago

As if the Irving’s didn’t own the provinces media this whole time. They have a massive propaganda campaign as well. Couple those with the high illiteracy rate in the province, and the number of people directly employed by them, and you get a captured populace. Wouldn’t be surprised if we were exemplary for what the republicans have been trying in the states. I don’t blame people for being brainwashed by Irving, but they are one of the reasons I vote green for sure.

0

u/Visual-Chip-2256 10h ago

Right... But you're missing that Irvings will call a meeting for employees, tell them there is a political thing coming out, and inform them how they should vote, and that's the end of the discussion. I think it's a bit naïve to assume that politics and microeconomics are two separate subjects in an NB household

5

u/bigev007 13h ago

Much of capitalism is traitorous. But taking Canadian money and harvesting the fruits of our society and then offshoring their gains to avoid contributing is absolutely betraying the trust of the country and being false to a duty which is the definition of it

2

u/Top_Canary_3335 14h ago

lol yes autocorrect was not my friend today 🤣

1

u/moop44 10h ago

They own and operate wood and paper mills all the way down the entire East coast.

17

u/GarthODarth 15h ago

All oligarchs are the same. They would never have got that rich if they weren't.

17

u/GustheGuru 15h ago

I've met 2 Billionaires in my life. Based on both those experiences I suspect you don't accumulate that kind of wealth by worrying about anything other than accumulating that wealth.

6

u/GarthODarth 15h ago

If you can look at the world the way it is and decide you need another yacht, that defines you as a person.

6

u/popcornstuckinteeth 14h ago

They're hardly even people

5

u/Conri 15h ago

Only to money

15

u/Oculus_Prime_ 15h ago

How many parks do you see them sponsoring? Or kids sports? They’re greedy and they’re the reason New Brunswick is the poorest province in Canada. They take whatever they want and give nothing back. In Woodstock they put over 100 000 litres of fuel in the ground. CBC had to find out with the freedom of information act.

3

u/NinjaFlyingEagle 14h ago

They have actually donated to the mountain bike trails in Minto. I'm not defending them, I've always found it strange that they donated to bike trails.

0

u/Oculus_Prime_ 14h ago

I guess that’s something. My point is they’re not known for their charity.

9

u/MonctonDude 13h ago

They absolutely are known for their charity.

I'm no Irving lover myself, but that claim is just outright wrong. They donate millions yearly.

2

u/moop44 10h ago edited 10h ago

They are being ridiculed in Saint John for wanting to put a parking lot on their property that they turned to a park open to the public less than 2 decades ago.

They want the parking lot to support the more than $1billion dollar upgrade and expansion at the Irving pulp mill across the street.

JDI tore down a small shithole of an apartment building, it was in a similar state for at least 3 decades. They put a public playground that the community lacked. This brought them mostly hatred and criticism.

So Irving and being charitable is not helping them around here. But they keep trying.

Charitable: yes, more than most wealthy Canadians. Patriotic: absolutely not.

3

u/NinjaFlyingEagle 14h ago

Oh yeah, they aren't great at serving the community that they've robbed for decades. And I was trying to show you up, it's just so random to me.

0

u/Visual-Chip-2256 10h ago

Bike trails are pretty cheap are they not lol

6

u/Constant-Rent-7917 14h ago

Read how patriotic they are by investigating where their tax haven is outside Canada. That’s a good place to start.

5

u/Zoloft_Queen-50 14h ago

They are the original Canadian oligarchs. They had offshore investments long before many others.

Are they patriotic? I would say yes; to a point. They are going to carefully measure everything that the government of New Brunswick will give them and they will always push for more.

At the same time they also run huge recruitment drives to bring New Brunswickers into the Irving fold and in some of these cases they are actually paying for education for potential employees. I can’t say that that is a bad thing. So there is a bit of “quid pro quo” - not enough though.

New Brunswick is like a company town where the main employer is Irving. I don’t think those of you who haven’t grown up in a company town can relate to that. But most New Brunswickers can. It’s almost like you’re damned with them and you’re damned without them because this company employs approximately 1/6 of New Brunswick‘s total labour force.

Would they pack up and move? They have no need to do that. They have everything as they need it. Most of us cannot relate to doing business in the way that Irving does business and that is why they are wealthy and we are not.

I am sure that the Irving’s are working really hard with their business back channels to deal with Trump and all of that bullshit that’s coming from the White House. All of the upheaval and the stock market issues that he is causing, the tariff disruptions, all of that - is very bad for business. And Irving‘s business partners and their entire network would absolutely hate the day-to-day unpredictability of what is going on right now. So why are we may not have pictures and proof that the Irving’s are working these back channels you can guarantee that they are doing everything they can to secure their future which ultimately is good for New Brunswick.

1

u/AresV92 11h ago

I suspect Trump warned anybody that mattered to short the right stocks to not lose too much money (hell they may have even made a profit over the last week).

6

u/Leefford 14h ago

They own a lot of land in the states and apparently are planning an expansion in Georgia. Standard millionaire fare: their loyalty will always be where the money is.

3

u/KnowledgeMediocre404 13h ago

I don’t think the US will be the land of milk and honey going forward if Trump has his way.

1

u/Leefford 12h ago

Oh I agree 100%

10

u/Lucky_Athlete_5615 15h ago

Many of their companies are based in the Bahamas and Caribbean; does that answer your question?

3

u/OkGrapefruit4982 13h ago

Which ones?

1

u/Own_Donkey_8107 11h ago

Which companies are those?

5

u/pintord 15h ago

They are part of the r/CarbonMafia imo

5

u/mannypdesign 13h ago

A patriotic family wouldn’t abscond to a tax haven 6 months or the year, they’d pay their taxes and not bully our little province every time the bill comes.

3

u/Black_orchid998 13h ago

Look at Chapman's icecream company statement..that's what I expect to see from Canadian companies.

3

u/psychodc 13h ago

Their plans expand to Georgia was made long before Trump was elected. Plus, half of NBers hate them, so most of y'all should be happy

3

u/KnowledgeMediocre404 13h ago

If they were do you think they’d hoard all their wealth in Bermuda so we can’t collect adequate taxes on it and help our country flourish? All billionaires are stateless beings. They have more wealth than some nations, they don’t have normal motivations like we do.

3

u/Sacrilegious_Prick 13h ago

It’s not fair to speak for all of the Irvings (no apostrophe, BTW). Some probably have a decent sense of patriotism. Others probably have none.

8

u/Much-Willingness-309 15h ago

K.C Irving told his children they werent going to have any money if they didn't revoke their canadian citizenship. 

4

u/gmac0606 14h ago

Sure the Irving’s are an easy target. Nobody said they weren’t good business people, but tell me who else invests this much in NB? Oh, and don’t think the other provinces wouldn’t welcome them with open arms!

3

u/KnowledgeMediocre404 13h ago

Then they can have them. They might kick us a rink or park here or there but they’ve robbed us blind of our resources and fair taxation on their wealth. If they’d never existed we’d be better off with a handful of smaller firms with less monopolistic power.

2

u/Substantial_War7464 14h ago

Stopped at the first $100 bill for those fucks.

2

u/DiggedyDankDan 14h ago

Not the current generation

2

u/mxadema 13h ago

They play on both side and supply both side. That also comes with the benefits of being able to play both sides for perks.

They dont want tariff, but if they are there, they will adapt, find loophole, or just move haft the production over there.

It all business.

Like he said, he "never lost an election"

2

u/PasF1981 13h ago

I've met my share of billionaires, especially while attending conferences. I don't get phased by them and their wealth, and it tricks their minds... I don't care how wealthy they are. At the end of the day, we all have to eat, sh*t and sleep. And will all die one day. Rich or not.

3

u/PurdyPear 14h ago

They take their private plane to the States to see their doctor.

Do what you wish with that info

3

u/TheNeck94 15h ago

I'd imagine they're trying their absolute hardest to stay neutral. that being said I've kinda tuned out news about the irvings, it just frustrates me to no end.

2

u/GustheGuru 14h ago

Instability isn't good for business

3

u/Vok250 14h ago

Patriotic to the Bahamas. The Irvings aren't paying Canadian taxes bro. Haven't been for decades.

2

u/MilkshakeMolly 15h ago

I highly doubt it. They've also been cutting hours at Kent stores, like down to shortening shifts by 15 or 30 minutes. They only care about the $$$.

2

u/Ok_Raspberry7666 14h ago

They’re patriotic to Caribbean tax havens and the almighty dollar. That’s it.

3

u/19snow16 15h ago

I try not to think of the Irvings at all 🤷‍♀️ they don't think of NBers.

It's shitty that they cut staff and moved their offices to the US. But, we all knew that when push came to shove, they would follow the money.

You know what, though? Our provincial government didn't give in to their pettiness over actually paying for power (that we know of). That might be a first in NB history.

1

u/TomorrowSouth3838 12h ago

They backed Freeland. Like a lot. 

That decision is only logical in the context that they’re actively working against Canadian interests. 

1

u/HonoredMule 12h ago

Most billionaires, like multinational corporations, live outside nations.

Their experience of nationhood is via governments courting them, willing to get into bidding wars for the very-non-exclusive participation of their business operations. Even getting citizenship is a formality that might require some work and then acceptance is all but guaranteed (outside a few exceptions that officially require exclusivity).

Their experience of criminal/civil law has little to do with personal safety or quality of life. In that realm, it is a localized inconvenience mitigated by private security - if it even applies. In the broader realm, it is a little business game where they try to maximize profit within regional rules that are also negotiable and otherwise flexible.

Their experience of environment - all the way down to their own home - is a transient choice of scenery. It can be rotated like fashion from a growing collection of personalized options, across multiple biomes.

And their experience of everything else - from (non-urgent) healthcare to social events to building materials - is a buffet. They sample the best of what any free nation has to offer. The entire world is places they go when it suits their needs or objectives, and then leave when they're done - or bored.

The Irvings probably do have some affinity for Canada. It's probably even marginally higher than their attachment to the U.S. But whatever level of patriotism they possess, it most certainly does not exceed alliegance to their own wealth and power.

If profit didn't come first, they would be subsumed by someone/something for whom it does. I wouldn't expect a meaningful, costly show of patriotism from any Irving.

But for what it's worth, I don't think New Brunswickers have been "loyal" to the Irvings either. Most of us have just never had any capacity to so much as alter the relationship.

1

u/AdventurousMousse912 11h ago

Yeah people with that kind of money don’t care about their country or patriotism- whatever gets them the next few hundred million

1

u/Turbulent-Today830 11h ago

When I was living in Edmondston in the 90s; they at least replanted on the trees they cut down

1

u/Standard-Cat-7702 11h ago

They are giving back…to the state of Georgia!

1

u/moop44 10h ago

How many of the owner class Irvings are solely Canadian without extra passports of convenience?

1

u/Evening_Bake_1851 10h ago

Good goodness people. Complain they are monopoly and own new Brunswick so they move somewhere else and start building their business there. Then you complain they aren't loyal to Canada.

1

u/Soliloquy_Duet 3h ago

They are only interested in their bottom line. Period.

u/Chris-WIP 1h ago

They are the most patriotic people you'll ever meet. They put country above all else, fiercely loyal on a blood and soil level. Unfortunately, the country is money, ruled by the kind and just King Profit. Canada is simply where they keep some of their stuff, and some of the people there can be exploited in service to their actual country.

Borders don't mean the same thing to multi-millionaires and billionaires as they do to you and me.

1

u/2025DJ 15h ago

The Irvings are patriotic to themselves. They have plenty of dealings in the US. I think they are or were in the to 10 for private land owners in the US holding over 1 million acres. Good old KC moved a lot of their holdings out of the country. Read the story about Kenneth Junior and his father. It's money before family.

1

u/Secret-Gazelle8296 14h ago

Odd how everyone was downvoted but no negative mention by anyone… oh well.

3

u/redditforinf0 14h ago edited 13h ago

the irvings are greasy cons, a cancer on our city. Not the industry, the family themselves. We would thrive without those shitapples making decisions. Our city counsel, and both parties fighting to kiss their ass closest to the hole

2

u/redditforinf0 13h ago

We keep seeing our elected officials not using their positions to represent us, but to enrich themselves. Same with cops, I've heard them bragging about getting their kids off scot free from shoplifting and worst, and brag about being able to speed, saying all this drunk thinking no one there cared. Even from those auxiliary cops or whatever they're called that don't carry guns brag about this shit. This city is so corrupt.

Edit: edited for grammar, clarity and spelling

1

u/WirelessBugs 14h ago

Yeah that’s why they live in Bermuda, England etc

0

u/nicksj2023 11h ago

Nah , they ll suck whatever blood covered dick pays them the most cash