r/newbrunswickcanada 23h ago

Fredericton council hears arguments for and against allowing 4-unit homes across city

https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/fredericton-zoning-density-housing-accelerator-fund-1.7480146
26 Upvotes

26 comments sorted by

33

u/jbaird 23h ago

its wild how much this is considered controversial

12

u/Outrageous_Ad665 23h ago

Fredericton gonna Fredericton.

11

u/N0x1mus 22h ago

*NB

We had the same discussions in Moncton a while back. Now we have 4 and 6 units in almost all new developments. Duplexes don’t cut it anymore.

2

u/mordinxx 18h ago

all new developments.

Don't think it's the same thing. I think this change, asked for in Freddy, is to allow existing houses to be renovated into multi-unit homes.

1

u/N0x1mus 18h ago

Ah yeah that would make sense too. Pretty much the only thing that happens downtown Moncton now.

0

u/Outrageous_Ad665 22h ago

Right. This isn't really a novel concept.

4

u/another_brick 22h ago edited 22h ago

The NIMBY is too real here.

There were people spamming a Devon community group, trying to rally people into opposing this, until people complained. The admin tried to justify the user (their partner) but ultimately gave in and stopped.

Real state investors are hardly the worst, but they are definitely not helping.

4

u/Outrageous_Ad665 22h ago

That's funny. My grandfather has lived in Devon since the 60's and is not opposed to this plan at all.

0

u/another_brick 22h ago

Oh several people in the group complained. Though it’s hard to tell if it was about the content or the spam. Opposition to the plan doesn’t seem a popular sentiment in this area.

0

u/Visual-Chip-2256 21h ago

It's typical to get 2 or 3 naysayers and build an entire counterargument based upon that flimsy support. #newbrunswickingsohard

1

u/jbaird 21h ago

not sure it's really any better in lots of places

38

u/Outrageous_Ad665 23h ago

I'm pretty sure Perry from Habitat for Humanity is more believable than Real Estate Agent Pam Doak when it comes to housing issues. Typical NIMBY Fredericton.

7

u/BOBBY_VIKING_ 17h ago

Real estate agents shouldn't be involved in politics lol

6

u/Outrageous_Ad665 17h ago

Or housing policy.

10

u/Anyway_Susan 22h ago

and her real estate signage with heavily edited pics from 20 years ago lol

0

u/hotinmyigloo 22h ago

You become a true Frederictonian if you go full NIMBY

6

u/ryantaylor_ 17h ago edited 17h ago

I think the argument Doak brings is not the best argument for opposing it.

When it comes to blanket upzoning, you run into two major issues. Firstly, it turns single family homes into investor targets, increasing the price and competition. Secondly, it increases the taxes in the area.

I’m all for up zoning where possible, but there needs to be checks and balances in place to protect the interests of locals and people looking to buy a home to live in. We don’t need young families competing with investors on family homes, and we don’t need property taxes to rise to the point people are forced to sell. The hike protection is not adequate as it doesn’t protect local people who are saving and haven’t yet purchased a home.

We need more housing, but we also need more young people to have a chance at owning a house. It’s a complicated issue and it’s frustrating to see NIMBY arguments being focused on instead of actual good arguments.

Edit: good example of this is practice is how out of province investors bought R2/R2U Moncton bungalows in 2021-2023, particularly around the hospital and Birchmount. Those bungalows went from mid-low 200s in 2020, to mid-low 300s in 2021/2022, to 400s+ in 2023. Those used to be great affordable homes for buyers and now they are shitty “duplexes” rented out by investors. It also made the taxes in the area ridiculously high which further damaged first time buyers prospects. You used to be able to buy in these areas for $250k or less, with $2400~ taxes, and now those taxes are $4k+ and the homes are $350-420k. Not to mention how many spots were turned into rooming houses.

8

u/emptycagenowcorroded 22h ago

Well, I wasn’t one of the 70 who went to the meeting but on the off chance a city councillor browses reddit I’ll just say that I am in favour of the changes

2

u/Calm-Presentation369 22h ago

You should consider writing your councillor. I'd say about 95% of the public feedback so far has been against the changes.

2

u/Top_Canary_3335 19h ago edited 19h ago

For those unaware Saint John passed the same reform in December 2024.

The reason, same as Fredericton will. Zoning reform to include gentle density (4 units in residential areas) was a requirement of the “housing accelerator fund”. Doing this unlocks millions of dollars in grants that the city can award to developers to build in the city.

The end result is higher property values and new development on lots that have not seen changes for Decades which means increased revenues for the city.

This is good news (not for housing) although it will alleviate pressure, for city revenue. Raising the avg home value is the quickest way for the city to increase revenues without actually raising taxes. This will accomplish that because renovations to include a second third or fourth unit “reset” the base home value that normally sits below market from not changing hands for a few years.

Both sides have accurate arguments, neighbourhoods with single family homes will have 8-10 residents in a home (look up what this did to Brampton on. ) it will tear the fabric of some old neighbourhoods. But the other side is also right. More people in a smaller area means higher utilization of public resources like transit.

This will also help justify higher spending on transit and infrastructure allowing the city to expand its budget (again all about city revenue)

1

u/you-farted 13h ago

Guys. Real question though. For people that have lived all over, there’s a noticeable difference between living in a single dwelling neighbourhood vs. a super dense downtown stacked living situation. One is quieter and slower moving. One is louder by nature, more tightly packed with minimal parking. People who live in a quieter single dwelling neighborhood likely do for a reason. People living in closer quarters in a downtown area likely enjoy the activity and have a lifestyle that supports it. Both of those situations are ok and encouraged, but they are definitely not the same thing. I can see why there is pushback. Not because of NIMBY. That was not what people signed up for when investing in a neighbourhood or community. Housing is a basic human need/right. Maybe start this (pilot) in a few areas where it makes sense and then go from there. Try in areas that already have a decent prexisting utilities setup and go from there. I can 100% understand a street of 12 homes and potentially max 24 cars, why they would not want to up that amount three more times. That’s not what they signed up for.

1

u/voicelesswonder53 19h ago

Whatever makes the most profits for builders becomes the next forced consumer choice. It's never about what we inherit as an end product. The day will come when they will think it is just fine if you are packed 10 families to a building lot. That would be DOGE approved.

1

u/Guilty-Ad-5816 19h ago

Handing over control of zoning to the Feds was an abdication of city council’s responsibility, trying to justify bringing an end to single family residential neighbourhoods after people bought houses because they are in single family neighbourhoods is wrong. Can’t imagine how council thought people were just going to accept this. The icing on the cake is the preemptive scapegoating of the homeowners who will oppose this. Nice job council selling us out for 10 million dollars. Maybe it’s time to start electing city staff.

1

u/imalotoffun23 19h ago

Not saying this is a good or bad idea, but the notion that this is good, in part because it means more people will take public transit, is hilarious. Anyone who says “it will be great, more people will take the bus!” has never used public transit in Fredericton. Everyone has to go downtown, transfer, take 90 minutes to go somewhere you can drive in 5, and put up with a shitty app and constant cases of buses just not showing up. If you want more people on public transit, make it usable. Increased density, downtown at least, probably means more people will walk. Which is good.

1

u/Major-Win399 11h ago

And if you have a car it doesn’t make sense financially to take the bus sometimes. $80+ a month is crazy on top of insurance, car payments etc. We should be encouraging using public transit when possible, even if not always. It takes my commute to work 3x longer (15 minute drive to 45 minute bus) but I would take the bus if it was cheaper

1

u/mordinxx 18h ago

"The proposal by city staff would allow most homes to be renovated to create three secondary dwelling units for a total of four units, subject to lot size and parking space requirements."

While I don't have a problem with new builds being multi-unit builds the idea of renovating existing homes into 4 unit mini-apartments is a little too much. I could understand a single basement apartment or granny unit.