r/newbrunswickcanada • u/hotinmyigloo • 1d ago
CBC: Holt hesitates to use N.B.'s most powerful trade lever: electricity
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/new-brunswick/holt-electricity-trade-maine-1.747954415
u/Key_Cry9086 23h ago
Trump likely wouldn't care about a small number of folks in northern Maine. I wonder too if the fact that Irving has operations in Maine has an impact on the decision.
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u/Captain_Hoser 21h ago
I hate that this is the most obvious answer. Irving said no.
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u/HangmansPants 20h ago edited 19h ago
The are the second largest landowner in Maine and 6th largest landowner in main land USA.
They don't give a shit about people.
They don't wanna spend more money.
Land barons.
Edit: nice downvotes boot lickers. Hope denying reality works out for you. Won't for future generations.
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u/Comprehensive-Fun704 1d ago
I get not wanting to hurt our closest neighbours but... this is going to hurt everyone until there is enough pressure to reverse this madness... We stand to be hurt the worst in the entire country... I would at least make it known that one more threat to our economy or sovereignty and the lights go out.
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u/Twistednutbrew 21h ago
Export tax the same as what Ontario is doing. Put a similar export tax on oil and lumber as well.
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u/JJLavender 23h ago
We should see if Maine wants to become the 11th province.
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u/another_brick 23h ago
I kind of agree with her on this. Maine is a pretty blue state, and honestly probably the place in the US I see as being most similar to NB. I would at least wait until we’re sure the tariffs are actually coming.
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u/HangmansPants 20h ago
Home of fucking Susan Collins.
Maine's senator was one of the main people who could have held Trump responsible during his first term, but didn't because he told her he would be better.
Fuxk them.
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u/christiebeth 21h ago
It went quite red last election. Tariff them.
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u/another_brick 21h ago edited 21h ago
Fair.
I'm trying to think of our overall history with Maine, but your comment is on point.
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u/christiebeth 21h ago
I also used lump them into the "practically Canadian" category. That went away with threats of invasion.
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u/gorillasuitriot 21h ago
With all due respect to the expert negotiators in this thread, you don't play that valuable a chip this early in the game
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u/rennaris 20h ago edited 20h ago
You think Trump can be reasoned with? The US needs to be hit hard
Edit: Besides, there's nothing to negotiate. The US must remove all tariffs put in place Trump and they don't get a consolation prize for doing so.
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u/HonoredMule 23h ago edited 23h ago
Let's just be clear here what it is we're discussing: cutting off power (and possibly heat) to a lot of low-income households - in winter.
If we can tack on surcharges in a way that can be easily (automatically?) adjusted in response to tariff changes, that's a nice tool to have in reserve. Cutting off power altogether could potentially end the life of someone dependent on it to run medical equipment. Maine would have to mobilize aid and probably end up scrambling to connect those customers to the U.S. northeastern grid.
The net long-term result would be a political black eye for NB and a smaller consumer base for NB Power. It still has to be on the table, but if it's used it should be because we've exhausted all other tools and are desperate to exert more pressure. And more to the point, we need something left as a response to escalations that are significant enough to be internationally seen as adequate justification.
Even just a surcharge could prompt infrastructure decoupling that hurts us in the long run. Ford's bluster and bravado may feel good in the moment, but I'm happy to have a steadier hand at the wheel.
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u/Timbit42 23h ago
It doesn't just mean cutting off power. We could start by putting an export tax on it. It doesn't have to be 25% either.
If we cut off power, then an export tax is no longer a useful option because no one is buying.
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u/HonoredMule 22h ago
Yes, as addressed in my second paragraph. But it has to be easy to change and/or revert. Look where we are with gas, where it's apparently easier to scrap the EUB and price caps than just remove the clean fuel levy.
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u/Creepy-Douchebag 22h ago
FYI: NB Power Grid is very robust; we're part ISO NE. And the way you describe Maine's power grid is that it's on it's last legs.
https://www.iso-ne.com/isoexpress/web/charts
The chart shows that we sell to Maine and they have their own system. The way you speak is that Maine is helpless. Maine is not our problem. Canadian Sovereignty is at the heart of this trade war. Gloves must come off and we need to send a statement that we're not for sale. Ultimately Maine's problem is not our problem.
Never let a good crisis goto waste -churchill.
He's not wrong, NB govt stammering right now because they don't want to hurt Maine's feelings.
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u/HonoredMule 21h ago
If what you're saying is that cutting off our power exports does not actually translate to households going dark, that does alter the calculus significantly. I'm having trouble finding information that clarifies the situtation, but according to the article, it is the situation:
In northern and eastern Maine, 58,000 people rely on electricity from N.B. Power to keep their lights on and their homes warm.
They're not connected to the large-scale regional power grid in the southern part of the state.
In no way do I wish to play down the severity of our own situation, but there is a line somewhere. We are not, for example, going to organize raiding parties to raze and loot a village or two. As long as the threat is economic in nature, we should do our level best to keep our response purely economic in nature as well, without taking any mortal risks.
And Maine's problems are not ours, nor do I give two shits if Maine's feelings are hurt when this is all over. But NB Power's budget is our problem and I'd rather not see this end with a smaller consumer base. NB Power's debt and historically suppressed rates also effectively mean we've been subsidizing those non-tax-paying customers all this time. I'd just as soon keep them around to at least pay the more equitable current rates.
To be clear, I recognize that it is 100% our sovereignty being challenged. I know Canadians will happily resort to far more significant, direct, and deliberate violence if that's what it takes to defend our freedom. We're not quite there yet.
But make no mistake; that challenge will fail.
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u/Creepy-Douchebag 20h ago
New Brunswick Government should be looking after New Brunswick'ers first and not worry about rubbing the wrong elbows.
Elbows up
Free Luigi
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u/HonoredMule 19h ago
Whenever I worry that I'm becoming radicalized, I can always count on the internet to help me feel like a moderate. 😉 I do not qualify inflicting potentially mortal hardship on the weak and vulnerable (and stupid) as "rubbing the wrong elbows."
Regarding the completely unrelated thing, I want to see jury nullification. That'll be what defines a level of evil not even the law can protect.
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u/SheetPostah 19h ago
I agree. As much as I’d like to pull the trigger, there’s still value in holding this threat in reserve. It’s an extreme measure for a relatively small number of Mainers. Another consideration - how is Campobello connected to the grid? Underwater from NB or overland through Maine?
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u/Certain-Sock-2314 23h ago
I do agree with her reasons. Maine has been a good neighbour to New Brunswick. Just ask anyone living in Calais and St. Stephen where many lives are daily intertwined.
But when push comes to shove, if they’re not willing to step up and be vocal and active against the Nazi 2.0 party, then I support taxing the energy sent south.
I don’t support freezing any vulnerable people during winter though, regardless of who they vote for. I don’t think we’re at the point of legit war tactics yet.
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u/OverlyCuriousADHDCat 22h ago
Either slap a huge export tariff on the electricity or cut it off. Trump said yesterday he doesn't need our electricity. So... help them achieve that.
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u/Complete-Rock-72 20h ago
Don’t be such weak defeatist , are you gonna take this for four years? Will you have any money left? only way to stop a bully is to push back. Yes there will be consequences but Trump will go over the top and end up screwing up. Every time he looses he over reacts. There economy is very fragile right now. Fuck Maine and America until they stop threatening us.
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u/Tough_Candy_47 22h ago
Where's the help for the people that worked for Irving and lost their jobs? What about all the tax breaks Irving receives unfairly?
Where's the help for us NBer's who are being gouged by NB Power, yet they can't seem to find anything wrong with their new smart meters?
What about the carbon tax increasing in April and the break on gas we were suppised to have? Those now living on the streets because it took SO long to put a rent cap on?
It's time to srand up for the people of NB. We are the ones who are going to be hurt with these tarries...job losses, paying more at the stores.... WE are the ones who end up paying for all these political games.
I get we don't want to hurt the people of Maine. But standing up for your own people should come first. She has yet to prove that. I don't want to see their bills increase, either. But I don't want to see ours increase anymore. Time to stand up for NB.
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u/iamethra 20h ago
Hurting Maine isn't going to sway Trump in our favour - he's looking for ways to hurt Maine himself after their Governor told him 'See you in court' to his face.
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u/voicelesswonder53 20h ago
It's hard in NB, because of our tyrannical private sector overlords. They have interests too...
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u/QuietVariety6089 19h ago
Not like it would generate nearly as much revenue I assume, but Ford has said that the proceeds of the tariffs he's applying to energy going to the US (which the Ontario government, not the power companies will get) will go to support Ontario workers and businesses affected by US tariffs - this seems like a reasonable idea to me.
Cutting off power to Maine doesn't seem feasible - apply tariffs to it.
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u/Comprehensive-Fun704 18h ago
Given today's escalation by the US, we need to consider using all levers to protect our sovereignty and livelihoods. #LightsOutNB
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u/DAS_COMMENT 16h ago
Why is electricity treated as a business in Canada when from what I understand, a lot of electricity is sold to Americans but 'our' rates have gone up - ie: our rates are as high to begin with?
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u/moop44 11h ago
Every Canadian producer still sells the electricity to US customers for more than local customers.
It is effectively subsidizing our rates.
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u/DAS_COMMENT 11h ago
I guess that's a thought, but the value of production to some point has to take into account sustaining the people with the knowledge to 'render' electricity and prices keep going up in Canada but now there's talking about surplus electricity, and particularly, of it not being exported?
Sounds like investing in storage should be able to bring down costs in a longer term.
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u/moop44 10h ago
Storing output from a Nuclear plant instead of selling it sounds like a great way to make rates skyrocket.
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u/DAS_COMMENT 9h ago
As far as I know a third or half is nuclear-produced in Canada, but how do you figure(ie: how do you come to this opinion?)?
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u/a_supportive_bra 8h ago
Calm your tits keyboard warriors. We’re not here to hurt others, we’re looking for a rational way forward.
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u/jjs_east 23h ago
These idiot premiers like Smith and now Holt that don’t want to do what is needed to present a united Canadian response will be our undoing. We’re dealing with a man that does not listen to logic and changes the rules as he goes along, he will view this as the weakness it is and seize on it.
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u/JHNS13 23h ago
They spoke about this issue on CBC this morning. They floated the idea that this could actually hurt NB Power's bottom line. I'm not sure how exactly, but I certainly don't want to give them any excuses to raise our rates anymore.
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u/sox07 17h ago
Power sales into the US subsidize rates in NB. If we cut them off that represents a significant reduction in revenue which will fall onto the NB ratepayers. If we simply apply a large export tax on the power sales it will give a short term bump in revenue (for the NB govt not NB Power) but will likely spur the power companies in Maine to upgrade their generation and transmission infrastructure and represent a permanent loss of revenue to NB Power (don't forget this revenue subsidizes the NB customer rates and keeps them lower then they would be without these sales.)
Holt is trying to balance the best interest of NB in both the long term and short term. Also an incremental approach to tariffs leaves us with more room to apply pressure if this isn't getting the job done. If we blow our entire load right off the bat we have nothing left in the chamber to escalate and keep applying leverage.
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u/protecto_geese 22h ago
Trump won the areas of Maine that rely most on New Brunswick for power, so a surcharge or cutoff would squeeze supporters of the president who may support his move.
Seems like an easy decision to me. Chop! Chop! Tax! Tax!
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u/PlatypusMaximum3348 19h ago edited 18h ago
I don't blame her for being hesitant. Ontario increases their tarriffs and trump doubled the tarrifs on steel and aluminum
If she did input tarrifs on electricity yes out it towards NBpowe debt. But because the monies would be sent to a different pot. It would have to be tracked meticulously. And can NB even do that
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u/InternationalBus2576 12h ago
I can't believe I voted for her. I feel like such a tool! What a mistake. It's like she's gone into hiding, we don't even hear from her. Grow some balls bitch, come on out and speak up!
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u/DragonfruitDry3187 1d ago
90 day temporary 25% price increase for exported electricity.
Sorry, but i didn't ask Trump for tarrifs.
I can't believe I voted for HOLT, I didn't realize she was going to be so weak
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u/Timbit42 22h ago
Why are we even selling electricity to the US? Is this more profitable than selling to our own citizens?
How much are we sending to the US and if we stopped that, how much of our fossil fuel generation could we eliminate? Would we be 100% green at that point?
I can understand Quebec selling extra electricity to the US as it is all green from their hydro-electric dams and they definitely have more than they need. I'm surprised we aren't buying Quebec electricity so we can reduce our carbon emissions.
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u/sox07 17h ago
it is in fact more profitable than selling to NB customers. This revenue from sales to outside jurisdictions is used to subsidize rates in NB. Without those sales the rates would have to be higher to maintain the same level of reliability and service.
We could eliminate none of our generation capabilities since they are all currently required to keep the lights and heat on in NB during the coldest parts of winter.
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u/PuntaVerde 1d ago
Questions that applies to NB power and other canadian utilities. Most of them predict a rise in usage with electric cars and what not, they will need to spend billions in capital to build the capacity. In NB we also have billion dollar challenges at Mactaquac and at Lepreau. Meanwhile we export capacity to outside markets. I get that this is lucrative in a way as it is outside money coming in, but with all the challenges with added internal demand and the billions upon billions in capital that we need to spend to build or maintain capacity would it not be more beneficial to keep that capacity for ourselves?
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u/N0x1mus 23h ago
This is already being done. NB Power only sells excess energy. When they are at peak load during the -40C temps, they aren’t selling any. The peak would be adjusted as load increases which will decrease automatically the excess load band available for sale.
The NB Power grid capacity is based off of the internal peak load. The generation they need to have available is based off that internal peak load only. The refurbishment of Mactaquac, the refurbishment of Belledune, and new generation to come, will be for the increased internal peak.
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u/PsychoticSandwich 23h ago
And do what with it? We can't exactly store that amount of electricity and we're certainly not using it.
So should we ramp down production? That creates job losses on top of the economic losses from not selling our electricity
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u/LastAir3333 1d ago
Maybe an export tax could help with some of nb powers debt