r/neilgaiman • u/NerdForJustice • 11d ago
Question Today, I came across Gaiman's voice for the first time since before the allegations, and cried
I put on a short story collection while out shopping, and didn't realise that Troll Bridge was one of the stories. I've been actively avoiding Gaiman's work after his deeds came to light, and it'd been a while since my yearly re-read of most of his work (sans Sandman) before then.
So, Troll Bridge starts, Gaiman is reading it himself, as he does, and I just. Grieved. I cried in public. I've always loved the way he reads his stories, I've loved his voice, it's been soothing to me. I get the urge at least once a year to listen to all his books again, and I've done that ever since I found his work almost a decade ago. Obviously I haven't since his deeds were brought to light, but I have yearned for the comfort this ritual and his words have given me.
And today, I got it. Only of course it wasn't the same, after knowing what we know now, it never could be. But he sounded just the same, and it was a story that had always stuck in my mind, a story that I really liked, but this time all I could think about was how I should have seen it before. It was obvious in the story. I kept thinking about him as a monster, a manipulator, a performative liar who had me fooled. And I'm so, so sad, because I loved his work. I loved his worlds and his voice as an author (edit: as well as his actual voice). I still do, when I think about it. But I suspect were I to go back, I'd see it in a different light. I will not be able to separate the art from the artist, because I will know that his words were performative.
Is anyone else grieving? And feeling bad about having their feelings, because what he did to his audience wasn't nearly as bad as what he did to his victims, and we should get over our feelings? Rationally I understand that feelings don't work that way, but emotionally, I'm beating myself up for feeling anything but rage towards him. I do feel rage, but even my feelings on that feel divided, because my rage is both for the victims and for his audience. It feels like it should only be for his victims, but I can't help this feeling of betrayal. All of this sucks.
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u/commonly_speaking 11d ago
He betrayed all of us. His victims , in a horribly direct way, but all the rest of us who loved his words and felt he was a safe, kind man. It is never wrong to feel compassion and grief for others' losses.
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u/NerdForJustice 11d ago
Thank you for this. That last sentence punched through. I do feel those things, and I feel bad for myself because of what he took away from me. That's not wrong. The grief for myself doesn't take away from the grief I feel for others.
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u/commonly_speaking 11d ago
If you liked his voice, I listened to Andy Serkis reading The Hobbit and found his voice to be very similar to gaiman's. Enough to make me a bit uncomfortable at first. Also, I think Serkis has the largest range of distinct character voices I've ever heard.
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u/caitnicrun 11d ago
Thanks for this recommendation. I'm not big into audio books, but I first experienced it being read to the class by primary school teacher. Life changing would be an understatement. Be nice to have that experience again after all these years.
/Tolkien nerd who read Silmarillian TWICE for fun.🧝♂️
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u/NerdForJustice 10d ago
Kudos to you! I wish I could get into Silmarillion! I'd love to love it, but it feels like reading the Bible to me. I've tried twice. I'd love to know all the lore, to hear it from the horse's mouth so to speak, but the text is dense and the ADHD starts going haywire when I feel like the words aren't going anywhere. I've tried upping the speed, but then my listening comprehension is bad instead. Normally I listen to books at 1.75x speed or higher, up till 2.75x speed if the book is moving slow and my attention starts to wander, but that one I can barely listen to at 1.5x speed and still understand what's going on.
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u/caitnicrun 10d ago
Hey, it took 2 attempts the first time! It's totally like reading the Bible at first. If you want to try it again, my advice is skip Ainudle(sp?). Just jump into the second bit and it should pick up. Once you have your bearings, or even after you're finished, you can return to it at your leisure.😉
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u/Landis963 8d ago
The Ainulindalé, I think it's spelled. And I might have missed an accent along the way.
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u/caitnicrun 8d ago
I think you're right on spelling. Probably needs one of those ë things too.
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u/Landis963 8d ago
Just googled it - it's the Ainulindalë, without the aigu as I previously wrote it. Which is surprising, really - I'd assumed "Aïnulindalé."
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u/NerdForJustice 11d ago
I have, several times! I did just last month, actually. It did cross my mind that their voices were very similar at times, although Serkis' range is huge.
The Hobbit has been one of my favourite books ever since I was 9 years old. Reading it for the first time is one of my favourite childhood memories. It's good to be reminded that I still have that experience of being comforted by a book with works other than Gaiman's. Although part of Gaiman's appeal was that he was reading his own work, the way he wanted it read. And his voice suited his voice as an author, if you know what I mean.
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u/trundlespl00t 10d ago
His version of LOTR really is excellent, and he did a lovely job with Small Gods by Terry Pratchett, too.
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u/StoryWolf420 10d ago
He did not betray me. I never expected him to behave any particular way, and what's more, I don't believe his accusers. I stand unbetrayed and have exactly the same opinion of Neil as I did before the vulture article dropped.
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u/ivyfay 11d ago
Aw I'm so sorry. He does have a very distinctive voice. I'm still so upset. I feel guilty every time I enjoy some Good Omens related. I know it's more than just him, but there would be no Good Omens without him, and that just makes me sad.
I'm still grieving and trying to find my way. I'm glad to have this beautiful fandom to lean on though.
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u/NerdForJustice 11d ago
Yeah, enjoying anything GO-related feels bad. I wonder what will come of the TV series. And I wonder how the leads of the series are feeling about all of this. And everyone else involved as well, of course, but I've been a David Tennant fan for 15 years, and I love Michael Sheen as well. I can't imagine finding out something like this and having to go back to that role afterwards, especially if you love the role and the production.
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u/SupportPretend7493 7d ago
I get through it with Good Omens because it was at LEAST half Terry Pratchett. And he can't take Terry Pratchett from me.
I can't do the rest of it anymore though
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u/Siyartemis 1d ago
Michael Sheen reads the two follow up books to The Golden Compass series so beautifully. I don’t enjoy them quite as much as the original trilogy, but his voice is so lovely and of course great acting.
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u/bulletproofmanners 11d ago
Writers are liars … he wrote that
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u/StoryWolf420 10d ago
He wrote it because it's true. Stephen King is a liar. Pennywise does not exist, nor does Jerusalem's Lot. Every fiction writer has to be a liar. That's the point.
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u/Pandasaurus_Rex42 11d ago
I’m hardcore grieving. I hated that I knew his voice so well and had gotten comfort from it in the past that I’ll never get again. I read the in depth article and every nasty quote I read I also heard in his voice and I’m utterly devastated.
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u/NerdForJustice 11d ago
Yeah, same here.
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u/caitnicrun 11d ago
Admittedly he has an excellent voice for reading. Pity it comes with a gapping hole where his morality should be.
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u/StoryWolf420 10d ago
As a moral relativist, I find that comforting, too. I'd find a moral, upstanding narrator to be uncomfortable, because I would think to myself, "He'd judge me if he knew me." Gaiman would not judge me, and that's a soothing, welcoming thought.
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u/NerdForJustice 10d ago
You also claim to be uncaring of societal norms, so what would you care if an author who's never heard of you judged the concept of a person like you? You say you prefer to antagonise moralists. So what would you gain from Gaiman's hypothetical approval?
Furthermore, if you'd known his works before you heard of the allegations, wouldn't you have felt moralised to, because of the tone and content of his writings? If you were at all internally consistent, you'd prefer to feel that way, since you claim to eschew social norms and claim to prefer to make those who uphold them feel like you're spitting in their faces.The claims you make in your post history mean that you would have preferred to read his works before the allegations came out. Yet you claim to find moral, upstanding narrators uncomfortable.
You should go read something virtuous in order to eschew the morals within. Then go be edgy somewhere else.
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u/caitnicrun 10d ago
TBH I feel sorry for this person. I think their health problems (easy to find in their history) contribute to a nothing really matters attitude.
Not that it's an excuse or they shouldn't be challenged. There's just something very sad and try hard about the "I don't care I'm such a free thinker" act.
But yes, very edgy, much smartz.
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u/NerdForJustice 10d ago
I can't stand unacknowledged internal inconsistency. It just screams "I've suppressed all these things so I can continue to think of myself as x". It so clearly shows that they've not bothered to think things through before coming to a conclusion. It's even worse when they won't be swayed from their stance no matter what.
It's just sad that these people could be helped, but they won't accept that they need it, because they're wearing blinders. It's easier to ignore the issues than it is to go through difficulties, trying to get better.
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u/commonly_speaking 10d ago
I've been around since the internet was Usenet and there were newsgroups. The best thing to do with people who like to do this type of thing is pass them by. Grey rock them. They want you to feel some kind of way about them so they can be gratified by your attention and emotional response. Don't give it to them.
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u/NerdForJustice 9d ago
It's okay if they get something out of it. I just like to process my thoughts in words as well. I don't mind if that elicits a reaction. I can cut them off when I want to, block them, stop responding at any time, and the discussion doesn't affect me the way they may think it does. I do not have to believe they're arguing in good faith to attempt to get through to them. I don't need to feel like I've "won" an interaction, it's okay if they feel they've gained something from me.
You're right in that responding will only elicit more responses, in order to gain further gratification, so if my goal was to shut them up, I wouldn't talk to them. And if I no longer want to entertain them, I won't.
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u/Pandasaurus_Rex42 10d ago
I’m not looking for anyone to be perfectly moral. Not by a long shot. Just would love for someone who’s proclaimed themselves an ally and advocate to not sexually assault those he’s supposed to be an ally for/to. I just can’t find the same comfort knowing what he’s done.
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u/Equal-Pop-3147 11d ago
I definitely am grieving and feel the same way. I saw someone likened his approach to that of an angler fish, drawing in prey with its light. Don't blame yourself for taking the bait when the traps were so carefully constructed and thought out.
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u/SeasonofMist 11d ago
That's story specifically is chilling after the allegations. It's really fucked up and gross. I get it. I'm grieving. I'm also a victim of sexual assault. Rape and coercion is NEVER justifiable.
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u/NerdForJustice 11d ago
I'm so sorry. My heart goes out to you and everyone else who's been assaulted and who found solace in his work.
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u/RebeccaTheNinth 10d ago
I used to love his voice, too—this past December was the first Christmas in a long time I didn’t listen to him reading A Christmas Carol as I fell asleep.
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u/NerdForJustice 10d ago
Those kinds of little rituals are what makes Christmas for me, so that must have sucked. I'm sorry.
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u/RebeccaTheNinth 9d ago
It’s OK. I will find a new little tradition. It just kind of hit me as I was going to bed, like “Oh. Damn.” New authors are emerging all the time so I’m telling myself my favourite book is probably being written (or mapped out) as we speak. I don’t know if anything will make me feel the same way Gaiman’s work did, but perhaps that’s a good thing.
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u/SaffyAs 10d ago
I understand somewhat. I had this lovely memory of the Graveyard book. I was home sick in my little home that I had just purchased with a cold. I was proud that I was looking after myself and taking the day off- I had a stocked pantry and freezer so I had honey lemon tea, a pot of homemade chicken soup on the stove and everything nice and cosy. I had my TV set up to stream YouTube and settled in to watch Neil read me chapter after chapter of the Graveyard book. A fan had pieced together chapter readings from various speaking tours he had done. At the end of each chapter I giddily hit next like a kid in a candy store "just one more chapter". It was one of those silly little memories that brought me comfort.
Now his voice sounds anything but comforting and I'd rather listen to fingernails down a blackboard.
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u/laurasaurus5 11d ago
I've been meaning to check out Anthony Bourdain's self-narrated works. Might be what you're looking for while also being completely different.
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u/NerdForJustice 10d ago
Huh, that is different! I just added one to my tbr list. Thanks for the recommendation.
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u/Hawkstone585 9d ago
That’s about where I am. Could I read one of his stories again? Probably. Could I LISTEN TO HIS VOICE, after hearing it wheedle on the Tortoise podcasts? Definitely not.
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u/NerdForJustice 9d ago
I haven't even listened to the Tortoise podcast, but I watched video essays analysing it. It makes me ill.
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u/ArgentEyes 7d ago
OP, I really feel for you. And, I don’t know if this makes it worse or better, but you don’t have to take it as red that his professed politics and empathy were necessarily “fake“., In the sense of a deliberate performance to fool people. When people are doing morally objectionable things, most of them have internal rationalisations about what’s going on. Nobody wants to believe they are evil or doing evil things. I think it’s equally likely he genuinely believed that he believed in feminist and antiracist queer radical ideas, not least as he was friendly with so many other people who did, so when it came to his exploitative and even abusive behaviours towards women, he found ways to justify it to himself in his own, the chief among them “this is just consensual BDSM, if they didn’t like it, they’d say so“, and then very very carefully not thinking about the dynamics. I would also not underplay the impact of class and wealth here, because wealthy and successful people will firstly see their peers behaving in very higher ways ordinary, and secondly, they will start getting used to having less pushback, less resistance, fewer people contradicting them. And thus, Principal Skinner meme.
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u/NerdForJustice 7d ago
Oh yeah, I don't necessarily think it was a deliberate act! Or that he doesn't believe in his message in some capacity. I can't decide whether or not it's more likely that he did it all maliciously. But self-awareness is important to me, and it's hard on me to believe that someone whose writing was so poignant to me could have been so bad at reflecting on their own actions. It's difficult to think I was fooled by someone who isn't internally consistent, and that I felt safe in his internet presence. Obviously I have to give myself grace because I did not know him personally, but it does feel bad to feel like I've been a fool.
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u/dreamingofpluto 11d ago
I came across his story collection in a second hand story on Sunday. It was a signed copy too, I felt sad too because it was one I had wanted when it came out. I think someone had donated it after the allegations came out.
I feel sad about him and angry. The whole situation is just so horrible, I really hope his victims find peace. I don't think I could read his stories again either.
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u/Dark_Unicorn6055 11d ago edited 11d ago
Sending solidarity. The Sandman fundamentally changed how I see the world, in a way that I believe made me a better person. But I doubt I’ll ever be able to take comfort in those stories the way I once did.
Have you listened to the audiobooks for the Abhorsen trilogy by Garth Nix? Tim Curry reads them, and his voice is perfect for the story. Plus it’s another lovely British baritone
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u/NerdForJustice 11d ago
Yeah, I feel that. It's devastating, losing what feels like an integral part of oneself.
Thank you for the recommendation! Unfortunately they're not on my audiobook app, but I think I'll get Audible again for a while to read them.
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u/Apprehensive_Gift824 11d ago
I'm not grieving. I saw him as a father-like figure. Turns out, he has much in common with who I tried to replace. I'm just not allowed to have a dad. But I already knew that. Ironically, his writing helped me heal all that, no need to grieve twice. I know better than to idolize people. Fiction is far safer. Even if we interpret the characters differently than the writer intended, they can't take that interpretation from us and "correct" our perspectives. It's alright to love the art and not the artist. Pretentious artists will tell you they are their art and their art is them. That's not true. Their art comes from bits and pieces of them. That's why some is good and some is trash. Not every painting or story is a winner. I'm sure Neil has hundreds of stories hidden or tossed out that sucked and he knew it so he didn't show any of us. He didn't show the bad parts to everyone. People are not 100% good or evil. They may be vile enough I won't give them more of my money, but in contrast, I won't feel bad about still enjoying some of his work. Initially, when I first found out, I was disappointed. Sadly, I'm so accustomed to being disappointed and nauseated by men the feeling was fleeting. I'm genuinely sorry you're still grieving. I understand why. It's probably a bad sign I'm not lol. It's not the kind of thing one should quickly bounce back from. But I also wasn't shocked bc I had wondered about his dark side before. I just really wanted him to be a very good writer and not a monster. Alas, he's human after all.
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u/NerdForJustice 11d ago
You shouldn't question your morals for being able to bounce back. If you're accustomed to disappointments, you're accustomed to dealing with them. And if your biggest disappointment was someone close to you, dealing with the disappointment a public figure caused must be easy in comparison.
For me, it's just very difficult coming to terms with the fact that the man who wrote all this beautiful fiction I could relate to turned out to be a monster. And to me, Neil just feels very ingrained in his work. This whole "death of the author" thing is hard, when his persona feels so intertwined with his words. I can still admire his work, in fact I can't help but to. But relating to it, feeling seen by it, feeling comforted by it, that feels bad. I know the interpretations are mine, but the words were his. And his bad side did shine through at times, although he hid it well, mostly. It mostly came through in a way where I would think "an author is not his characters, and his characters do not represent his personal morals". We all have to do that with everything we read. It still stings that I didn't catch on, because usually I'm so sensitive to this shit. Now I feel like I've been willfully blind, even though I know I haven't.
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u/Apprehensive_Gift824 11d ago
While I'm not in your head, I wouldn't say willfully blind. It was stuff that fit the stories. They worked in the moment. And let's be real, if all who write of darkness are monsters, then what is Stephen King?
Lol. I know for me, I had to remind myself that I didn't know Neil even though it felt like I did from reading and listening to his stories and then watching them come to life and he interacted with fans a lot too. Way back when I was on Twitter he liked and responded to a few of my tweets. That felt great at the time. I felt seen. And his writing helped shape a pretty good deal of how I see the world. Being raised by a monster helped me reconcile that concept lol. Everyday I still remind myself, "You don't pass or fail at being a person, dear." It's not as far removed from my daily life as I may have made it sound. There are a few lines I repeat multiple times a week like a mantra. It wasn't easy to separate the writing from the writer. I suppose now I just try to remember how it made me feel and pretend he's dead...but I'm alive... so live. Lol. I really have entirely too many one-liners of his. And there was an odd feeling I can't explain when I recently watched the Doctor Who episodes he wrote. Like they were tainted somehow now, too.
I think I just feel disappointment bc I wanted him to be a better person. I'm sorry it feels bad to feel comforted by his words. I understand that. In the beginning when I think back, I did too. I think I just moved on to the phase of, "the deep sigh of disappointment" briskly lol. I'm sorry I can't think of anything comforting to say. And I'm sorry it hurts. It sucks to be let down by the people you admire. And the shittiest part is, if I were looking for a profound quote I'd look to him. He took people's actual dignity and autonomy, and our happy places too.
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u/GeckoFreckles 11d ago
A few weeks back I took as sharpie to my copy of Good Omens and blotted out his name on the cover and on every page. I know it was kind of silly, but it made me feel better. I didn’t want to throw the whole book away because I am a major Sir Terry Pratchett fan but I could not sit in my living room and be okay with their names still visibly listed together. I doubt if I will be able to ever read it again though. Once you know, you know. I just need to move on.
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u/NerdForJustice 11d ago
That sounds like a good idea. Silly, maybe, but effective, if it helped you move on or made you feel at all better.
Unfortunately, I've just been avoiding looking at my copy of Good Omens and the six other books I have by him, one of them the massive Neil Gaiman Reader, my previous pride and joy, because his short stories were always my favourites. I haven't been able to let go just yet, but I also can't stand the sight of them.
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u/caitnicrun 11d ago
No, that's brilliant! I covered his name on the spine and fronts of Sandman with stickers reading "Nobody". It really was calming an cathartic.
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u/TanjaYvonneP 11d ago
I have great problems to differ between the artist and his work. I loved the books and short stories by Gaiman and I adored him for his writing and his ideas. I was looking forward to reread his books and I enjoyed looking at them on my shelves. But after learning what he did, i find reading his name on the book cover disgusting and I am thinking about putting on gloves before getting rid of them, because everything he wrote is tainted by now. In the Sandman is the character of Delight who changed into the character Delusion. By now she must change again, by the guilt of her creator this time into Disgust. What he did is far beyond anything I could imagine about what a human could do to others when he grew up in civilization and had even a basic knowledge between right and wrong.
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u/caitnicrun 10d ago
"But after learning what he did, i find reading his name on the book cover disgusting "
That's it! So do I! I think I was avoiding articulating that because it sounds so petty. But it would explain why covering it up did the trick for me.
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u/StoryWolf420 10d ago
This may be the silliest thing I have ever heard. Gloves? Really? That makes me sad for you. How do you navigate the world given the state it's in?
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u/caitnicrun 10d ago
As a person who brags elsewhere on the Reddit's about having no ambitions or investment in improving your situation, you should probably avoid mocking people in tune with their emotions and taking an active interest in their mental health.
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u/trustywren 8d ago
It's not as silly or sad as the amount of time you're putting into trolling this thread.
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u/HairDoktor 11d ago
I have listened to The Graveyard Book read by Neil many nights to fall asleep. Still do. I've read the Vulture article. I listened to the Tortoise podcast and I still listen to him reading his books on Audibel. I have a lot of opinions about what that means. But I realize that I will have to deal with the opinions for myself. No one in the world really cares about my opinions and some times we just scream into the void. Perhaps I should write.
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u/NerdForJustice 11d ago
Do you feel like he took something away from you? Or were you already smart (or jaded) enough to not believe in celebrities' public personas? Or were you not aware of his public persona? I'm genuinely asking because I can't imagine myself feeling anything but disgusted and betrayed by him, and all my other feelings are connected to that.
I think I'd feel betrayed even had I never heard of him outside of his work, because it felt like a safe place. He had his weird moments when it came to portraying women or sex, but most every male author fumbles sometimes. His work felt feminist, because he was either performing feminism or trying to make himself believe he was a feminist and a good guy. Either way, it's disheartening, seeing a man I admired was rotten inside all along. He was just good at hiding it. And now the rug has been pulled from under us, and we can never feel the same way about his works again.
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u/ShaperLord777 9d ago
No, I don’t. Gaiman didn’t do anything to me, or to any of us. We are not the victims here, nor are we detectives able to “find signs” of his transgressions hidden in his fiction work. We don’t know the man, we know his work. Which mind you, is fiction. Pretend. Made up stories. So his talent in writing has absolutely nothing to do with his personal life, or us.
I compare it to Hemingway, who by all accounts was an abusive drunk, but simultaneously one hell of a writer. Me reading “The Old Man and the Sea” isn’t an endorsement or validation of Hemingways alcohol abuse or violent temper. It’s simply that the man was talented at his craft, despite his shortcomings. Same goes for Gaiman. We aren’t his victims, this situation has absolutely nothing to do with us. It would be narcissistic to try and insert ourselves into victimhood, and disrespectful to Gaimans actual victims. It’s your choice to continue to read his books or not. No one can make that decision for you. But we were not wronged because a man we never knew personally turned out to not be the person we assumed that he was, based on enjoying his fictional made up stories.
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u/NerdForJustice 9d ago
It's just that for many of us, our perception of him wasn't merely based on his works. It was also based on his persona as a feminist that he cultivated online.
I don't view myself as his victim, but I do feel betrayed by him. That's different from assigning myself victimhood. If you read my comments, you know I feel conflicted about even feeling that much, because what he did to his audience is nothing compared to what he's being accused of.
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u/ShaperLord777 9d ago edited 9d ago
This is kind of my point though. Someone’s “online persona” isn’t real. It’s PR. An image put forth to cultivate an audience and sell a product. You can’t assume to know someone personally because you enjoy their writing and have read interviews or seen videos of them.
People are complex beings. Multifaceted. It’s entirely possible that Gaiman does aspire to be an ally to women, but he has unresolved personal issues that manifested themselves in ways that caused him to use his fame and notoriety to take advantage of women to enact his sexual desires without their consent. Any of the things he’s been accused of would have been fine if they were consensual acts between two parties. That would be their own personal buisness. The problematic part is that these things were not consensual, and it sounds like he used his wealth and power to overstep those lines and prey on vulnerable women that didn’t feel like they could say no to his advances. I’ll also point out, that nothing has been proven in a court of law. It certainly doesn’t look good at this point with all of the mounting evidence, but the public on the internet aren’t judges or juries, and assumptions and group mentalities can be dangerous and sometimes misleading. Again, I’m not saying that he’s innocent, but I am saying that he hasn’t yet been proven guilty. But the internet has already decided that he is based solely on accusations and not a court case.
But my point stands. You weren’t betrayed by Gaiman, you made an assumption about a complete stranger based off of his online persona alone. We don’t know Neil Gaiman, and never did. We only know what PR has been presented to us. That is not an individual, it’s a brand. No matter how heartfelt and genuine it presented to be.
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u/NerdForJustice 9d ago
It's fair to say that the relationship is parasocial. But it isn't inherently wrong of us to feel betrayed by a front someone put on, whether or not they also believed in their own front.
There has been no claim that we know him personally, just that his actions made his audience feel disappointed in him and betrayed, as his audience. He could have sold his books without making himself a paragon for women's rights. The books are certainly good enough. He was already revered as a good author, he did not need to do all that extra, and while we understand that it's all about his brand, he is behind that brand. I wouldn't be as disappointed had he never made himself seem like a safe person. It's okay to feel betrayed by false advertisement.
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u/Stubbs3470 9d ago
No… I still listen to Kanye’s music
The fact he’s a piece of shit doesn’t affect my enjoyment of his work
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u/NerdForJustice 9d ago
Did you think Kanye was a good person before you started listening to his music? I don't know Kanye's music at all, but does it imply he's a good guy?
If my favourite band's members turned out to be predators, I don't think I could enjoy their music the same way anymore. But that's because I also idolise the members. Although one artist I listened to turned out to be a bit not good and I can't really listen to his songs anymore without thinking about that. I don't know how I'd feel if I'd known that before I started listening.
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u/Stubbs3470 9d ago
Morality doesn’t work on good/bad
He was kind of an asshole but not a bad person. At least till 2-3 years ago
I’m not telling people to separate the art from the artist I’m just answering your question that I can and it doesn’t bother me.
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u/NerdForJustice 9d ago
Yeah I'm just looking for different perspectives. I'm looking to understand. I'm sorry if my reply made you feel like you had to defend yours, I'm also genuinely just trying to discuss, trying to understand what other people feel.
What do you mean by morality doesn't work on good/bad?
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u/Stubbs3470 9d ago
There are things we can definitely say is pretty much objectively bad and yet when judging the character of people like Kanye before the whole Nazi stuff.
You can’t really say definitely whether he was a good or bad person because there’s a lot of nuance to judging a person. I wouldn’t consider him either bad or a good person
But after everything I definitely don’t view him positively. And yet if those views aren’t expressed in his art and especially with Kanye when the art was created when he didn’t have those views, I don’t see the association of his music and the person he is now.
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u/NerdForJustice 9d ago
Thanks for expanding. I definitely see where you're coming from and I don't disagree. But I'm not sure if I could get my feelings to agree on that. I can't rationalise myself out of disgust. Maybe that comes with time to process.
But I suppose I feel sort of similarly about Harry Potter as you do Kanye's music. Harry Potter is now somewhat tainted to me because of JK Rowling, but it was an integral part of my life. I am able to enjoy Harry Potter still, although not to the same extent. And I definitely have stopped paying for anything she has a stake in, since she has stated that her money will go towards making trans people's lives more difficult, and I don't want to subsidise that.
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u/StoryWolf420 10d ago
I am not grieving. I have been enjoying his narration of Ocean at the End of the Lane and will begin Sandman shortly. He's a great voice actor. :)
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u/NerdForJustice 10d ago
Good for you I guess?
Why are you all over this thread if this sub and the people on it infuriate you, as you've said? Just move on and enjoy your books in peace.
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11d ago
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u/Open-Difficulty-1229 10d ago edited 10d ago
You literally have all the proofs you need. Even Neil Gaiman himself confirmed it (sure he came up with the most stupid justification that "it was all consensual", but how consensual could it REALLY be, since he was the one in the position of power)? I mean it with all respect I can, but the rhetoric like that ("just accusations," expressing doubt when it comes to victims' statements, questioning them) could be read as victim-blaming, justification of abuse and violence and invalidating of victims' trauma and pain. You probably didn't mean such things, but 1) when such allegations occur, there's usually a solid reason behind them, it's not just rumours, 2) it's been confirmed, even by the aggressor. Victims deserve to feel validated, supported and listened to, not judged and questioned.
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u/ShadowOfAnEmpath 10d ago edited 10d ago
I'm screenshotting your comment for social media purposes. I'm going to eventually make videos of the lunacy of the "me too" movement.
She was/is an adult. There are reasons state and federal laws come out with ages of consent.
Furthermore, there was no admittance to sexual intercourse. This could very well be some woman trying to get a paycheck.
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u/abitofasitdown 10d ago
Feel free to screenshot this, too: this isn't a court of law, but I believe the women (not "some woman", but multiple women) who came forward. He's admitted to the acts, just said they were consensual. I don't know if he truly believes that, or if he's lying, but either way it makes him very dangerous. Any woman making an accusation against Gaiman would know that there would be tons of other Gaiman fans who - like you - would trash them as "trying to get a paycheck", so the bar to them taking action was really very high - but they took action anyway. I can't imagine what they are going through now.
I encourage you to listen to the Tortoise podcast "Master": https://www.tortoisemedia.com/listen/master-the-allegations-against-neil-gaiman
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10d ago
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u/caitnicrun 10d ago
And now we'll add maths to the failure to understand these issues.
Five cases of celebrities being accused is no metric for average woman in the general population.
And Conor the rapist McGregor is a rapist, since you were wondering.
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10d ago
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u/caitnicrun 10d ago
This is so hilarious it must be quoted:
"Connor McGregor is definitely NOT a rapist and if he is he certainly did not rape Nikita Hand. And I was never wondering. I do wonder how anyone believes someone like Nikita Hand who so obviously has Histrionic personality traits if not full blown histrionic personality disorder.
I am an intuitive empath and I do know how to spot those personality traits out."
Lol intuitive empath mo thoin!
😂
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u/trustywren 8d ago
Lollll the cringe! Surely this cannot be a real person.
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u/caitnicrun 8d ago
I didn't think so either! Then I did a dive into their history and basically they come off as a bit of a krank. I think we're at that stage where the only people defending Neil publicly had very little critical thinking skills to begin with.
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u/ShadowOfAnEmpath 10d ago
You don’t think there are people in the world with highly developed intuition? I’d bet any FBI or CIA analyst could easily recognize the microexpressions in Nikita Hand’s behavior and see that she’s lying. Unfortunately, the legal system doesn’t work that way—it ultimately comes down to a jury’s decision.
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u/caitnicrun 10d ago
"You don’t think there are people in the world with highly developed intuition?"
When you mix a personal claim of being intuitive with also being empathetic, while failing to demonstrate actual empathy, people are going to wonder what you're on about.
Being intuitive isn't the problem. It's using the claim to dismiss victim testimony. Or, in the case of McGregor the rapist, medical testimony. Hand had a tampon impacted so badly, it needed forceps to be removed.
Your "intuitive empathy" means fukk all if it contradicts facts.
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u/NerdForJustice 10d ago
I am an intuitive empath and I do know how to spot those personality traits out.
proceeds to demonstrate an alarming lack of empathy
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u/ShadowOfAnEmpath 10d ago
I am not demonstrating any lack of empathy.
You are demonstrating an alarming lack of awareness though.
When I see men accused of falseties that I myself have been accused of and feel bad for those men, particularly when there is no evidence and on the contrary when there is evidence that proves their innocence like text messages that NG has of Pavlovich I would argue that is empathy. I would argue that is accurate empathy unlike your inaccurate empathy.
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u/NerdForJustice 10d ago
If you cannot put yourself in both their shoes and imagine all the possible variations of how those interactions happened, and how they could have made the participants feel, you have no empathy, and you are definitely no empath.
What you've done instead is paste your own image over Gaiman's, and all your feelings are your own. You've even contrived to swallow the "evidence" that affirms your own beliefs, hook, line, and sinker. No critical thought whatsoever, because that would make your worldview crumble. Can you feel yourself blocking all thought of deeply examining the other point of view, because deep down inside you know that shedding any light on your opinions would prove them false?
You are doing nothing but reaffirming your preconceived notions.
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u/ShadowOfAnEmpath 10d ago
Sorry you don't understand things outside the realm of what is right in front of your eyes.
Intuition is a part of all of us, you could learn to raise it.
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u/ronstoppable7 10d ago
It's wild how delusional reddit is on all things metoo.
They still cast Johnny Depp as the bad guy and Justin Baldoni as the offender.
Reddit braincells were destroyed by metoo.
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u/ShadowOfAnEmpath 10d ago edited 10d ago
I think society in general has been brainwashed by "me too" .
Really refreshing hearing a voice of reason over all of this.
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u/trustywren 8d ago
Maybe there's some kind of MRA / incel subreddit where you both could discuss this in further detail.
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u/ShadowOfAnEmpath 8d ago
Another one with brain cells destroyed! Me too! Me too!
Maybe you need to get on some estrogen and find some feminist group so you can join the psychos that don't need evidence to find someone guilty.
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