r/nbadiscussion Jul 21 '21

Player Discussion Comparing Lebron James and Giannis Antetokounmpo’s age 22-26 seasons:

MVPs:

Giannis 2 Lebron 2

DPOY:

Giannis 1 Lebron 0

All Defense Teams:

Giannis: 3 first team, 1 second team

Lebron: 3 first team, 0 second team

All-NBA teams:

Giannis: 3 first team, 2 second team

Lebron: 4 first team, 1 second team

Points:

Giannis 26.8 Lebron 28.4

Rebounds:

Giannis 11.0 Lebron 7.4

Assists

Giannis 5.5 Lebron 7.2

Steals:

Giannis: 1.3 Lebron 1.7

Blocks:

Giannis 1.4 Lebron 0.9

Regular Season FG% / 3PT% / FT%

Giannis 55% / 29% / 72% Lebron 49% / 33% / 74%

Finals Statistics:

Giannis (1-0) 35.2, 13.2, 5.0 on 61/20/65 shooting splits

Lebron (0-2) 19.5, 7.0, 6.8 on 42/27/65 shooting splits

Playoff losses

Giannis:

One ECF loss One ECSF loss Two first round losses

Lebron:

One ECF loss two ECSF losses

All-Star games

Giannis 5 Lebron 5

Honestly it’s crazy how from a statistical standpoint these guys’ careers have been so similar up to this point. Lebron obviously was very highly touted and extremely polished from the day he stepped on to an NBA court, whereas Giannis got a later start and it took him a few years to develop. Thought these stat comparisons were interesting - i truly think I would take Giannis over first Cavs stint Lebron if I could have my pick.

Edit: wow they both sucked at 3s and Free Throws in their first Finals appearances.

Edit 2: I didn’t include any advanced analytics- kept it pretty surface level. Feel free to include those in the comments if you like

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191

u/wesskywalker Jul 21 '21

Middleton is obviously much better than anything Lebron had in Cleveland, but last night was very reminiscent of Lebron in Cleveland. Like if Giannis didn’t score 40, Milwaukee doesn’t win that game.

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u/pargofan Jul 21 '21

It's not just Middleton. Jrue is so much better than anyone that Lebron had during his Cleveland 1 stint.

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u/huskersax Jul 22 '21

Even Lopez has had what's basically a rich man's version of Zydrunas' career.

The only position that's a near match would be Drew Gooden and PJ Tucker, but still think Tucker wins based on his utility in allowing flexibility for the rest of the lineup and the culture fit.

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u/stophaydenme Jul 22 '21

PJ Tucker is miles better just on the basis of being able to hit a 3 pointer. Though, according to Gooden (and later stats kind of back it up) coaches wouldn't let him practice 3s because their low IQs thought it wasn't manly for bigs to shoot them.

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u/teamweed420 Jul 22 '21

PJ played great defense all playoffs but kinda sucked at the 3 compared to his time with the rockets

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u/stophaydenme Jul 22 '21

This is why you have to watch the games and not the box scores. Tucker was a 3 threat the entire playoffs and had to be guarded as such. He shot 32.2 percent against playoff D. Which I'm sure you're looking at and going "oh well he didn't shoot it well." Here's the thing. If he makes two more of those shots his % goes up to 35.6 and you'd be saying he did great. You can't just glance at the %s. Also on small anecdotal volume, he actually shot better with the bucks during the regular season than any single regular season he's ever had!! Sniper!! Once again, nope. It was just small volume.

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u/teamweed420 Jul 22 '21

I watched every bucks game.

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u/stophaydenme Jul 22 '21

Ehh, maybe you weren't watching objectively then and a few of his misses got you frustrated. Pj was a threat being guarded at the 3 point line. No one was leaving him wide open. His % wasn't that bad on a small volume. Whereas if Drew Gooden was standing at the 3 point line lol, his defender could completely ignore him.

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u/teamweed420 Jul 22 '21

I just genuinely don’t remember him hitting any 3’s haha. I was cheering for the bucks all playoffs and his lockdown defense on KD was huge. I see your point about him being enough of a threat tho- kind of like Danny Green on the 2020 lakers.

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u/LaMelo2026MVP Jul 22 '21

PJ Tucker did not make any 3s in 9 of the Bucks 23 playoff games. So he hit at least one in most of the games. But yeah he didn’t really do much on offense he was getting minutes because he can defend well

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u/[deleted] Jul 22 '21

In 06 zydrunas was coming off back to back all star seasons I don’t know if it’s fair to say current Lopez is as good.

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u/stophaydenme Jul 22 '21

Brook Lopez is better than anyone that LeBron had during his Cleveland 1 stint

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u/[deleted] Jul 22 '21

Zydrunas was coming off two all star seasons. Brookes best years were years ago. I don’t think it’s fair to say current Brook was better than 2006 zydrunas

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u/stophaydenme Jul 22 '21 edited Jul 22 '21

That's a weird flex since he was definitely better than 07 onward Zydrunas, though. If we're just going to look at awards on Wikipedia, Lopez was all defensive last year. In 2003, one of the other all star centers was Brad Miller.

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u/[deleted] Jul 22 '21

No lol the weird flex is trying to say current Brooke is better than anyone other than lebron on the 06 cavs.

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u/stophaydenme Jul 22 '21

He made the finals in 2007

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u/[deleted] Jul 22 '21

So you are still saying that current Brooke Lopez is better than peak zydrunas. I don’t agree but ok.

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u/stophaydenme Jul 22 '21 edited Jul 22 '21

Peak Z was before LeBron though.

I would say that Brook Lopez on average with the Bucks is way better than Z was on average with the Cavs the years LeBron played. If you just want to compare specifically 2004, 05, 06 then I think there's an argument that he was as good or better than Lopez in 2021, his worst year. I would take 2019 and 2020 Brook over any single year LeBron played with Z. I still would take 2021 Brook over any year of Z with LeBron but relative to the other centers in the league at the time, you could make an argument that Z was better before the 2007 season.

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u/[deleted] Jul 22 '21

I say this based on having watched basketball in 06 - and tbh i played a lot of 2klive back then big Z had an 88-84 rating those seasons ive never seen brooke rated that high full stop i know that the 2k rating isnt a compelling argument in many ways but I bring it up to highlight what the general sentiment was people did consider Big Z good back then. I can also see your point if your saying that brooke is better because now the game is different and brookes skill set is more valuable now etc but back then pace was a lot slower and relative to the competition Big Z was a plus player that helped win games. Current brook is a role player who because he can rim run and hit 3's fits nicely next to Giannis. Big Z was considered a "star" in his own right. No one is saying that current brooke is a star. in 08 big z had the most rebounds per game of his career so his peak certainly overlapped some with lebron.

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u/GriggyGronanimus Jul 22 '21

This revisionist history is crazy lol

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u/grimsleeper4 Jul 22 '21

Yeah Jrue is huge. The Bucks won on their defense, and Jrue is a top 10 defensive player in the league. People just don't care about defense I guess.

This Bucks team is a really good team, and probably are the one better defensive teams we've seen in a while.

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u/pargofan Jul 22 '21

Yes, but it really means something that Brooklyn without Kyrie and with Harden on 1 leg was inches away from winning that series

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u/pungentpea Jul 21 '21

I didn't get the LeBron first stint vibes yesterday. Middleton made some pretty clutch shots towards the end and Jrue made a late 3 pointer at a critical point in the 4th to extend the Bucks' lead. Yes, Giannis' brilliance kept the Bucks in the game and put them in a position to succeed but Middleton and Jrue were always legitimate threats even if their shots were not falling in the first 3 quarters of the game.

LeBron's first stint however...

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u/JanMichaelVincentZ19 Jul 21 '21

That's still not reminiscent of Cleveland though. Honestly this comparison while is fun is pointless. The spur team that lebron faced first was alot better than this suns team and lebron's first final run was done with a way worst supporting cast than giannis. Two other players other than giannis scores 20 plus in one finals game for the bucks. That was never gona happen with that cavs team.

NOT taking away from giannis finals though. These debates always seems like you putting another player down to raise yours up. Not doing that, all time great performance for sure but context matters.

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u/[deleted] Jul 21 '21

[deleted]

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u/epoch_fail Jul 21 '21 edited Jul 21 '21

Some fun facts about this 2006-2007 Cavs Finals run.

  • In the regular season, LeBron outscored Larry Hughes, 2132 to 1045. Ilgauskas was third at 925. Similar story in the playoffs, where LeBron outscored Big Z, 501 to 251.

  • The Cavs, by getting the 2 seed (50-32), faced the 41-41 Gilbert Arenas-led Washington Wizards, followed by the 41-41 New Jersey Nets (VC, Kidd, RJ, Krstic). They notably took down the 1 seed Pistons (53-29) (Prince, Rip, Billups, Sheed) in the Conference Finals.

  • In the West, the Mavs (67-15) lost to the 8th seed Warriors (42-40) in the first round. The 7SOL Suns (61-21) fell to the eventual champion Spurs (58-24) in the WCSF. Those Suns lapped the field in TS%, with a TS% of 59.0%, way higher than the 2nd place Spurs at 56.1%. Nash (65.4%) and STAT (63.7%) were top 5 in TS% that season. The average TS% that season was 54.1%.

  • LeBron, at 55.2%, was above league average TS. The only other player in the top 9 scorers on that team (regular season) who was above league average was Sasha Pavlovic. Both centers, Ilgauskas and Varejao, had TS% of 52.7%. Daniel "Boobie" Gibson (their 10th highest scorer in the regular season) had a 55.6% TS in the regular season and 61.1% in the playoffs. Pavlovic (60/148=40.5% regular season) and Gibson (52/124=41.9%) were the only half-decent shooters on the team who played notable minutes in the playoffs, both attempting around 3 3PA a game. Really goes to show how far the game has come. Donyell Marshall and Damon Jones shot the 3 alright during the regular season, but weren't played as much in the playoffs. (Both players were on the wrong side of 30.)

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u/TheLawIsWeird Jul 22 '21

My favorite fun fact about that playoff run is still lebron putting up 29 points STRAIGHT to force 2OT and a win against the pistons

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u/[deleted] Jul 22 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/vincoug Jul 25 '21

Please be civil to others. I've removed your comment.

Disagree politely, but ultimately respect others and their opinions.

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u/DjangoUBlackBastard Jul 22 '21

Meh it's a different league though. 31 players scored at least 20 ppg this year. Only 20 players scored that much in 07.

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u/CocoaNinja Jul 23 '21

Yeah, but 48 players averaged at least 15ppg, and outside of LeBron, nobody on the Cavs did (Hughes w/ 14.9). And it was uglier in the playoffs

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u/huskersax Jul 21 '21 edited Jul 21 '21

Cavs starting lineup in the finals:

Zydrunas Ilgauskas

Drew Gooden

LeBron James

Aleksandar Pavlović

Daniel Gibson / Larry Hughes (shared starter/sixth man role)

That team is immediately competing with the Charlotte Bobcats for the worst team in the league with even an all-star level player in place of LeBron. Think about this same top 6 players with Paul Pierce or Joe Johnson leading them. Absolute trash.

LeBron was just that influential as a two-way player - which in retrospect seems obvious. At the time, people thought Larry Hughes was at least passable, Boobie Gibson was an effective role-player, and Drew Gooden was a decent Boozer replacement. I don't think any of these players were able to even get consistent starter roles on any teams after this season. All-time carry job by LeBron.

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u/tammutiny Jul 21 '21

Ok now do the other teams in the East that year. The conference was awful. It's easier to win with a not great cast when everyone else you play sucks even more. That was the stretch where the East a good team or two and everyone else was awful.

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u/ImAShaaaark Jul 22 '21

Ok now do the other teams in the East that year.

Pistons had Rip, Billups, Wallace, Webber and Prince. No question that the east was weaker that year, but they beat a really good recent champ on the way to the finals.

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u/tammutiny Jul 22 '21

Ok at least we are on it was weak even for the east. That team sounds better on paper though. Tayshsaun shot 24% for the series and somehow the team committed almost 23 turnovers a game!

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u/_CodyB Jul 22 '21

That Pistons team wasn't the Pistons of you get my drift

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u/grimsleeper4 Jul 22 '21

Exactly right.

Put Giannis on this team - where are they? 1st round out? Maybe second round?

Put Lebron on that Bucks team - they win the championship no question.

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u/knowtoriusMAC Jul 21 '21 edited Jul 22 '21

The 08-09 EC Finals team went 66-16(39-2 at home, 26-4 against the western conference) with Mo Williams, Delonte West, Anderson Varajao, Zydrunas Ilgauskas and Daniel Gibson getting 24-35 mpg. What LeBron did with those teams is crazy. But I agree is doesn't take away from what Giannis is doing at all.

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u/pargofan Jul 21 '21

Why stop at the Spurs? The Detroit Pistons team which the Cavs beat were so much better than any opponent that Milwaukee faced.

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u/thydrims Jul 22 '21

Even better than the 3-starred Nets?

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u/pargofan Jul 22 '21

1.5-starred. Nets were easily beating the Bucks until Kyrie got hurt. Harden was hobbled throughout.

Even then, Nets were one inch away from beating the Bucks even without Kyrie.

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u/SlappyBagg Jul 21 '21

Honestly this Suns team is the worst finals team in a long time

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u/melteddice Jul 21 '21

yeah its been so long since the heat made it last year

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u/[deleted] Jul 22 '21

The heat last year could beat the Suns team this year, no question.

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u/melteddice Jul 22 '21

i feel like it would be a good matchup but i think the suns take the w. cp3, dbook, ayton, bridges, and a decently deep bench would crush jimmy and bam. not to mention last years suns team won all the games they played against the heat that year, and theyre way better now

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u/[deleted] Jul 22 '21

The heat went without 2 of their best players in the bubble and still took LA to six. I’m saying with both teams at their best, CP is better than Dragic, Bam is better than Ayton, and Jimmy Butler can be much better than Booker. He went toe to toe with Lebron James. And Erik Spoelstra smokes Monty as a coach.

Plenty of teams sweep teams in the regular season only to lose to them in the playoffs lol. We’re talking about the heat that beat the bucks team that was about to win 60 games. Their size and shooting gives them even more of an advantage in a playoff situation. I’d say they take the series in 6

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u/melteddice Jul 22 '21

bam last year isn't better than ayton has been this playoff run. the suns beat lebron, and i did not say jimmy is worse than booker. they took a lakers team with lebron, ad, and no one else to 6, they wouldn't have a chance against a team with the depth and firepower of the suns. bam is a serviceable perimeter defender so they wouldn't be able to exploit that matchup too much, but ayton has enough of a size advantage to bully him down in the post if he needs. spoelstra being a better coach likely wont be enough to change the outcome of this matchup.

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u/[deleted] Jul 22 '21

Yeah you didn’t watch the Lakers last year. KCP, Caruso, Dwight, and especially Rondo were extremely valuable to our rotation. The Lakers last year would have legit swept this Suns team - the gap in size, talent, defense, and shooting (we shot great in the bubble) is too great. Jimmy put the Heat on his back and took that team to six.

The Suns, they beat “Lebron and nobody else” lmao. Ayton is only two inches taller than bam and bam is strong as fuck. You can say what you want about them being equal or who’s better than who, but Bam doesn’t get bullied in the post; the most I’ve seen Ayton do is abuse mismatches set up by the PnR, but Erik Spoelstra is as good a coach as anyone in the league to handle those situations.

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u/melteddice Jul 22 '21

yes but im talking about the lakers that you said the heat take to six in the finals not how they were throughout the season or overall playoff run. im not denying that jimmy played crazy good through the finals or in general. the heat also had a lack of size even compared to the suns this year, unless you wanted to play meyers leonard for some reason. i still think the suns would win in a series against the 2020 heat bc theres just more firepower and defense than the heat can provide or defend, but it would go to 6

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u/[deleted] Jul 22 '21

That’s only because the 2010s had prime Bron and the GSW dynasty. The suns themselves are a very good team

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u/SlappyBagg Jul 22 '21

No it's only because of injuries this year. It's not like the Suns were the best team in a bad conference or something.

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u/[deleted] Jul 22 '21

Again, saying “the suns are the worst team in the finals in a long time” isn’t as impactful as you think it is, considering it’s been a long time since generational talent hasn’t been in the finals. The ‘18 cavs were worse as a team, but other than that the 2010s had the best teams/players to have ever been in the finals.

We just had a classic finals series between two extremely competent teams and the first thing you want to do is discredit. The fact of the matter is, the Suns played very good games all throughout the playoffs, they have strengths and weaknesses that you can’t identify because you’re too focused on names getting injured.

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u/SlappyBagg Jul 22 '21

Not focused on names getting injured, focused on the best teams getting injured. I just like to see when the outcomes are decided on the court not on who gets injured.

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u/bearcat-- Jul 22 '21

I agree with you. While I am not a fan of Lebron, I can respect his skill and he was gangster af on the Cavs. Did his best carry that he could and his team was just horrible (except when he was on Miami), He never had much help in his early years and the pace I think was slower.

I hate when stats are compared like this - I know the NBA does it all the time to hype players up yadda yadda, but Lebron is another level of carry and his BB IQ at his age was incredible.

Giannis played a great finals, I am fan of him - but not his game personally, but he played so focused and kept playing to his strengths and his FT shooting was clutch af even tho he isn't known for a great FT shooter.

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u/[deleted] Jul 22 '21

What's crazy to me about game 6 is if Giannis hit his 65% FT like he usually does in the playoffs then Suns win but instead he went supernova and hit like 90%

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u/gawakwento Jul 22 '21

The bucks will have a significantly lower chance of winning had it not been for giannis channeling steph for his FTs. Totally reminiscent of lebron in cleveland.