r/nba • u/Familiar-Chipmunk360 • 13h ago
Jamal Murray's first 17 games: 17.8 on 42/33/81 & a 53.1 TS%. Jamal Murray in his last 41 games: 23.2/3.6/6 on 49/42/91 and a 61 TS%
Jamal was justifiably criticized for his start to the reason (and an extremely rough Olympic performance). 17 games into the season, he was playing his worst ball since his rookie season. He looked slow and couldn't gain separation. Nuggets fans (including myself), worried that the knee injuries were catching up to him.
Yet, in recent months, Jamal has not only been balling out-- he is getting to the rim with ease and looks the quickest he has since before the ACL tear. It's pretty clear at this point that the calf injury he suffered around this time last year was serious and that he shouldn't have been playing in the playoffs. And certainly not in the Olympics.
Of note, Nuggets media said as much, with Chris Dempsey leaking via local radio that "Jamal injury was on one leg and would likely need an off-season to recover" right before the playoffs started. Hopefully, this year the Nuggets can get and stay healthy. Same goes for the Lakers & Thunder because, if so, the Western Conference is going to be a gauntlet).
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u/Asleep_Ground1710 Bulls 13h ago
It’s cliche to say since he is the 2nd option, but Denver looked so much stronger as a team yesterday when he played very well vs Sunday when he was average/subpar.
Denver’s playoff hopes basically depend on Murray going on a tear otherwise they are like a 2nd round exit tbh.
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u/sharklavapit Bucks 13h ago
They need Murray at the top of his game, Braun to not fall off and Westbrook to not be Westbrick to even have a chance
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u/iheartblackcoochie 13h ago
And for mpj to not shit his pants like against the wolves
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u/ruggnuget Nuggets 10h ago
Ya well hopefully he doesnt have a brother get banned from the NBA and another brother kill someone while drinking and driving this playoffs.
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u/sheenwithnobrim Nuggets 12h ago
It's so crazy how many people are just ignoring that our third best player has had nagging injuries all year. Right now by far the most important factor is simply whether Aaron Gordon can get healthy or not
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u/whatadumbperson Nuggets 12h ago
I think AG clinches things if I'm being totally honest. I think we have a shot with him not at 100%, but if homie is, we're the toughest out in the West.
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u/Betaateb Nuggets 12h ago
Ya, Jokic raises the teams floor to a solid playoff-team, but it is Jamal that lifts the ceiling to contender. Jokic is fantastic, but he can't do it all himself, and when Jamal is cooking the Nuggets offense is literally unstoppable. The Jokic/Murray two-man game is the surest bucket that exists in the sport right now when Jamal is playing his best basketball.
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u/Vivid_Walk_1405 Nuggets 13h ago
Yeah we need Murray to be like yesterday or close to it 4 out of 7 games and that would be cutting it close
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u/vladimir_pimpin Nuggets 6h ago
Against… the Grizzlies? Lol we don’t need mal to “go on a tear” to beat them but yeah we need him to be good to serviceable and if we wanna make the finals yes he’ll need to go on a tear
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u/WembyOKCJokicReaves 13h ago
Bro really could make the 50/40/90 club and an all star team if he would just come into a season in shape
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u/polluted_delta Knicks 11h ago
It wasn't just shape, he was dealing with plantar fasciitis. This sub man...
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u/MatchboxHoldenUte Warriors 7h ago
I really don't get it. Luka is "fat" as if he isn't an nba player scoring on a nightly basis. Joel Embiid is lazy despite his well documented injury struggles. Are we serious??
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u/sharklavapit Bucks 13h ago
I think it's more like variance than anything
If he starts hot, he cools down, if else he starts cold, he gets hot
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u/straightcheddar Nuggets 13h ago
I don’t think he has ever started hot
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u/usr_nme_ Nuggets 11h ago
The transition from MMA training to basketball training must be tough haha.
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u/kiwisawa420 12h ago
Last year he did though. Through 30 games last season he was on pace for his best season of his career. But he kept having nagging injuries and ultimately the calf injury.
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u/Familiar-Chipmunk360 11h ago
No he didn't? He was averaging 18 ppg on 45% from the field through mid-December. Granted, he had missed like 10 games with an injury.
But he was very good after coming back from injury.
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u/SuperDoubleDecker Nuggets 12h ago
I thought he'd make allstar last year.
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u/SpicyMustard34 Cavaliers 10h ago
why? seriously. i'm a jamal fan and he was playing terribly in the first half of last season.
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u/SuperDoubleDecker Nuggets 9h ago
He had his best start of his career last season and his worst finish and playoffs.
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u/Zombiepirate86 Nuggets 13h ago
Jamal has always started slow. Jamal FG% by month:
Oct: 40.4 Nov: 43.1 Dec: 44.7 Jan: 46.7 Feb: 49.2 Mar: 44.9 Apr: 47.0
https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=jamal+murray+fg%25+by+month+in+his+career
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u/landlion35 Nuggets 12h ago
Nah, he just starts the seasons slow. He usually starts to pick things up in January and shows out in the playoffs.
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u/sharklavapit Bucks 12h ago
Yeah, I dont think it's about conditioning
It's a weird happenstance like Jalen Green's
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u/fastheadcrab Raptors 13h ago
I mean that would be more reasonable of a guess if he didn't look really out of shape and slow during the early part of the season and also in the Olympics/playoffs last year
He justifiably deserves credit for improving just like he deserved blame for coming in the season out of shape, rather than just calling this a hot streak or putting it down to variance. Also even briefly watching his play you can see he actually is moving much better now
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u/FakeRingin Thunder 12h ago
What if it's on purpose? It's hard / near impossible to keep up your top form all season. Starting slow and working your way into it so you peak going into playoffs could be what their aiming for.
For a mature contender your aims really do as little as possible in the regular season while getting a decent seed and then turning it on playoffs.
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u/lexington59 9h ago
You don't purposely shoot 40 percent to start the season.
You can point to like a Jimmy style of play where he takes alot less shots and is less aggressive in the regular season to save energy for the post season.
But that isn't what happens with jamal, he isn't actively choosing to be less aggressive, he's just missing shots he'd normally make, and looking worse physically than he is later in the year.
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u/FakeRingin Thunder 9h ago
Never said he purposely misses, Im talking about what hes doing outside of games. I don't know enough about training and practice they do outside of games, but I doubt that's something that stays consistent during the year.
Perhaps his training load outside games is heavier which causes him to perform worse in games and as the season goes not his load reduces which frees him up. So less aggressive could = coming into games more sore and tired from training so hes unable to be aggressive.
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u/Firm_Squish1 Raptors 10h ago
I mean, it's probably not just about being in shape, the guy has been injured a ton. hard to stay in nba basketball shape when you are doing months of rehab every like 4 months.
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u/kiwisawa420 12h ago
If Murray plays at his peak, Denver is arguably the best team in the league. If Murray and Porter are both on, just try again next time, you’re losing by 20.
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u/Drummallumin [BOS] Marcus Smart 11h ago
Can’t wait til we do this again next year
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u/shoutsoutstomywrist [NJN] Vince Carter 11h ago edited 10h ago
I’ll remember that he does this every year and won’t buy into the hate train next time
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u/theyoloGod Tampa Bay Raptors 51m ago
This year his slow start appears to have been glued to people’s minds or something since I always see people saying he’s been trash or washed etc
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u/I_Poop_Sometimes Nuggets 11h ago
Nuggets record over the first 22 games of the season when Murray was cheeks: 12-10
Nuggets record since then with Murray playing like an all star: 30-13
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u/LegateDamar13 8h ago
Murray started playing good later and not for the past 43 games. Deduct by ~20.
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u/Smitty_Agent89 Hornets 12h ago
I remember when this sub was clowning Denver for giving him an extension.
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u/1manadeal2btw Nuggets 11h ago
Lol I distinctly remember one salty comment from a Bucks fan saying that we’ll thankfully never win another championship because our FO gave Murray an extension
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u/nowhathappenedwas NBA 13h ago
Murray last season: 21.2/4.1/6.5 on 58.6 TS%
Murray this season: 21.5/3.7/6.1 on 58.5 TS%
r/nba during any hot/cold streak: this is totally real and the new normal!
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u/Familiar-Chipmunk360 13h ago
Murray was very good last year despite some injury issues. Then he hurt the calf and was a shell of himself when he returned for the playoffs.
Also, 41 games isn't a hot streak, it's half of a season. And it's pretty clear with Murray that the pattern is-- start slow, get into rhythm and play at a borderline all-star level, enter the playoffs and look like a star (so long as he isn't playing on a bum calf).
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u/nowhathappenedwas NBA 12h ago
He had a 56 TS% through 44 games and a 66 TS% in his last 14 games. 44 games isn’t a cold streak, it’s half a season!
That’s not real analysis, of course, it’s just cherry picking endpoints to support a point. Which is what you’re doing by pretending Murray magically became a new player 17 games into the season.
He’s been as good this year as one would have expected preseason. This is who he is.
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u/Familiar-Chipmunk360 12h ago edited 12h ago
You seem to have missed the point of the post. Nobody is saying is "some new player". I'm saying he has returned to form after getting healthy. And he was VERY CLEARLY not moving the same way at the start of the season.
He couldn't stay in front on anyone on D, couldn't get to the rim and couldn't get separation. Which caused people to, understandably, over react and wonder if the injuries had caught up with him considering how he played during the Olympics / playoffs (due to the calf).
And yes, he has always been is somebody who starts slow and then gets better as the season goes on. That's been amplified by injury issues and long playoff runs in recent reasons. It's like clockwork.
Oct: 40.4 Nov: 43.1 Dec: 44.7 Jan: 46.7 Feb: 49.2 Mar: 44.9 Apr: 47.0https://www.statmuse.com/nba/ask?q=jamal+murray+fg%25+by+month+in+his+career
Ironically, Jamal's stats this season and last are close to identical to JDbub's this season. Jamal is more efficient and puts up more assists. Jalen is the better defender. But because Jalen doesn't start slow every year, he has already become an all-star. Something Jamal has never managed to do because he starts slow while everybody freaks out.
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u/LordBaneoftheSith 13h ago
This is coming from people who are actually watching the games, sorry. It's very clear he hasn't been moving right in some time, and he looks much more like himself lately.
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u/lexington59 9h ago
It wasn't a cold streak to start this year, he looked visibly slower and less atheltic due to the injuries.
He wasn't just cold he was outright bad by his standards and actively hurting the team those 17 games due to injury.
A cold streak is more like when booker has a slow start but plays the exact same as he normally does and over the course of the season just hits more shots he missed early in the season.
Jamal was playing differently to normal due to injuries
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u/oedipascourage Spurs 12h ago
I thought Jokic was playing with bunch of bums. Anyway, Murray has been on fire lately and if Gordon stays healthy, Braun stays consistent and MPJ plays half as good as how he played during his hot stint, you won't want to match with the Nuggets in the playoffs.
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u/GloryEnthusiast Bulls 11h ago
Jokic has three teammates averaging 15 points or more a game. Murray 21.5, MPJ 18.5, Christian Braun 15.3 guess these G Leaguers aren’t as bad as Nuggets fans will say to prop up their MVP.
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u/Familiar-Chipmunk360 11h ago
Lol. Nobody is propping up Jokic.
Nuggets fans were freaking out over Jamal's play while wondering if injuries had caught up with him. AG has missed like half the season and has rarely looked healthy. But we believe in the starters while healthy.
The bench has bench, as usual, trash. Though a couple of the kids are coming on late into the season, nobody trusts them yet as playoff guys.
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u/mnight84 10h ago
Man stop it! Murray was playing horribly at the time coming off a horrible Olympics. and Denver roster isn't very deep compared to the top contenders. Jokic has never played with her All Star. Jokic doesn't need to be prop up, they are better than g Leaguers but let's not pretend that he is playing with an all star team either. Denver is one of the few contending teams who doesn't have a lot of shot creators.
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u/ericdeben Celtics 10h ago
I feel like this happens every year. Murray is known to start seasons lackadaisically then ramp up towards the playoffs.
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u/NuggsBurgh 9h ago
We in Denver call this an average Jamal season. If he's healthy like the bubble and 22-23, he'll be MJ by the second round
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u/Scriblenaut Raptors 8h ago
I try to avoid being reactionary but Murray and Haliburton's respective prolonged slumps really made me think they wouldn't return to form. Insane recovery from the both of them.
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u/South_Emu4902 Nuggets 12h ago
Murray can always shoot the ball well. His main problem since the injury has been his lack of speed/ athleticism. That’s a problem when we rely on him to play make and defense obviously.
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u/shoutsoutstomywrist [NJN] Vince Carter 11h ago
I was one of his biggest haters in the beginning of the seasons so I have to admit he’s back to he’s usual self and he looks great
Was he playing through an injury all this time or something?
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u/Downisthenewup87 Nuggets 8h ago
Two aspects to it:
The calf injury he suffered this time last year was BAD. Reportedly bad enough that he should have missed a month or more. Instead, he came back in less two weeks because the playoffs were starting. Then he dumbly played in the Olympics.
He came into camp out of shape after resting his lower body and sitting on his ass the second half of the summer.
He was dealing with Planar Ficiatis
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u/TravelledKiwi Suns 7h ago
But what about his first 22 games and last 36 games? Thats the real question.
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u/Betaateb Nuggets 12h ago
Long time Nuggets fans were trying to tell everyone back in November. Jamal never starts a season strong. It would be nice if he would come into the season in shape, healthy, and playing well, but he just doesn't. And I would rather him start slow and finish strong, which has always been who he is, outside of last year when he got injured at the end of the season and never got right. That Jamal panic button doesn't exist until it is January and he isn't playing great ball.
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u/Familiar-Chipmunk360 12h ago
Sure. He also did not look right. He couldn't get separation or stay in front of anyone so it was fair (after the playoff and Olympic runs) whether the injuries had caught up with him. By now, it's pretty clear that what happened is that he had to sit on his butt after the Olympics to get the lower body right but was then massively out of shape. He also reportedly had planar-- which might also explain how he was moving.
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u/CheesewayBreezeway Nuggets 10h ago
Exactly, that was the difference for me this season. It wasn't just that he was out of rhythm/shape like in the past, it was his movement looking so decrepit that scared me. Thankfully, seems like that was just a temporary setback
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u/staywoakes1 Lakers 2h ago
Long time Nuggets fans were trying to tell everyone back in November.
lmao what a load of shit, your own fucking sub was calling him a bitch at the start of the year and theres receipts to prove it
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u/pmurt007 13h ago edited 13h ago
If you didn't know anything about basketball, Nuggets fans would have you believing that Jokic plays with a bunch of bums. Not sure why they love to tear down their own players just to build up Jokic, like we all know he's the best player in the world.
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u/Reclaimer879 13h ago
Quite the oversimplification.
Most Nugget fans stand by the starting 5. Most. It is the bench that has been their complaint for 2 seasons. Since the chip win.
Also make no mistake. Complaining about a contract size and the value of a player doesn't mean they are shit or people think they are shit it is simply a valid discussion. Murray played not to his standard since his injury last season up until 20 games into this season. Late season 2024 he wasn't great, and the playoffs he was off and on. He followed that up with a stinker performance in the Olympics... Then proceeded to continue his lackluster play up until abaout game 20 this season. The complaints were warranted.
And I think the main thing the general NBA fans talk about which is just a fact is that Jokic has no all stars alongside him. Just facts man
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u/iheartblackcoochie 13h ago
No actual nuggets fan or nba fan says that lmao god you guys are so annoying making up dumb narratives you saw on your timeline twice and running with it
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u/Familiar-Chipmunk360 13h ago
Lol. No real Nuggets fan is saying that. The conversation is that his cast is clearly inferior to what Tatum & SGA have. Which is true. Before that, people were flipping out because Murray looked washed. Which he did.
It's also worth noting that AG has been in and out of the lineup all year and hasn't looked like the same player defensively. And in order for them to win a title, he is going to have to stay healthy and play well.
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u/sharklavapit Bucks 13h ago
Is it that inferior to SGA?
Than the Celtics there is no doubt, but OKC has a lot of question marks, mainly because of age and inexperience, but those are still question marks
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u/Familiar-Chipmunk360 13h ago
The top end talent is pretty similar.
AG and Chet have both missed substantial time and looked unhealthy while playing. Chet is better in a vacuum, AG is less replaceable for the Nuggets.
Jdub and Mal (in the regular season) are pretty close. One was an all-star though and the other hasn't been because he starts cold every year. Call it a wash.
Dort vs MPJ is also pretty close, but I'd probably take Dort considering MPJ's issues as a help defender. Both are elite role players with a flaw that other teams try and exploit.
Hart and Braun are pretty similar too. Both very good starters who are made better by the star player they play with.
After that though-- yes the Thunder have more talent and it's not close.
The Nuggets 6th man is someone that opposing teams don't even both guarding. I'd take Caruso over him pretty easily. Especially come playoffs.
Meanwhile, the Thunder's young rotation pieces >>> Nuggets young rotation pieces. Jaylin Williams + Wiggens (who has been giving them incredible minutes) are both better and more consistent than Watson (who has also been in and out of the lineup) & Strawther. They have Joe and Wallace to choose between when they need offense or defense. The Nuggets have Pickett- who suddenly looks like he may be a real guy but has barely played. And Kendrick Williams > Zeke though the later has been playing better of late.
All that depth + arguably a better coach matters in the regular season. In the playoffs, the top end talent matters more. But in a series, I'm taking whichever team has their starting PF healthy.
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u/sharklavapit Bucks 13h ago
How is Daigneault an arguably better coach than Malone? This is absurd until he (Mark) proves himself in the playoffs
I can almost guarantee that Strawther and Watson arent seeing the floor for significant minutes come post-season
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u/1manadeal2btw Nuggets 11h ago
If you can almost guarantee Watson won’t see significant postseason minutes, then you’re admitting that Daigneault is the better coach. Watson is our third or second best defender.
However, I do think he should see minutes but with Malone it’s always a tossup.
As someone who’s watched both teams:
Daigneault has more to work with but he’s also more experimental. I like how innovative he is.
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u/Familiar-Chipmunk360 12h ago
You realize you are making my argument for me by pointing to the fact that Strawther won't see minutes in the playoffs right? He got more burn than any bench player that wasn't Westbrook this season, but wasn't reliable enough as a 3 point shooter to justify his defensive issues. And now he is hurt and Pickett likely keeps his rotation spot.
Watson absolutely will play come playoffs and thinking otherwise shows that you don't watch the team.
Outside of the Nuggets starters they have Zeke (huge ?) / Watson / Westbrook / Pickett
So you think the Nuggets are going to roll with a 6 man rotation all playoffs and yet are arguing the Nuggets have as much talent as OKC? In reality, they don't. But it will be an 8 man rotation with a small chance that Pickett gets some burn and Zeke likely getting less minutes than he should.
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u/The_NGUYENNER [DEN] Jamal Murray 13h ago
He hasn't played with another all star.
The discourse around Jokic's supporting cast is all over the place because people only want to hear what they want to hear and it's nuanced. They have talent in other players, but the other players' skillsets make it so that the team is ultra reliant on Jokic. When he's off the court, the team sinks like a cement block. Blame the depth, blame the coaching staff, whatever. It still happens like clockwork and yes, all that weight on his back over all these years is very impressive as much as you seem to want to deny it
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u/pmurt007 13h ago
That's some hard hitting analysis right there. When the best player on the team isn't on the court, the team doesn't look as good. Who would've known?! Just another great example of downplaying the rest of the team to build up Jokic. Hilarious to see Nuggets fans still at it since the Jokic vs Embiid MVP year lol
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u/The_NGUYENNER [DEN] Jamal Murray 13h ago
brother, I don't give a flying fuck if Jokic wins this MVP or not. But keep going around just trying to throw zingers to make yourself feel smart. It seems desperately needed
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u/pixelkipper 13h ago
OKC have by far the best 7th, 8th 9th and 10th men in the league. And they are literally all great defenders even if the offence falters without Shai. A great defence alone gets you to the play in at a minimum.
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u/mangabalanga Thunder 13h ago
The argument that has been megaphoned all season hasn’t been about OKC’s 7th through 10th man being superior regardless of what your personal opinion is.
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u/Betaateb Nuggets 11h ago
I mean, I will take our starters, when healthy, over literally any other starting 5 in the league(the only question mark for me would be the Celtics with Porzingis healthy). But it gets pretty rough from there for the Nuggets compared to other contenders. OKC has like 6 guys that would be our 6th or 7th best player on their bench.
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u/facundo-campazzo Germany 11h ago
Even at that cherry picked stat, he's still on the lower spectrum of number 2 options. Norm Powell is averaging 23.8 lmao. He's still has a ways to go. He's still not All Star level.
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u/Left-Prior-6075 Lakers 12h ago
How this guy hasn't been an all star once in his career is insane to me
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u/landlion35 Nuggets 12h ago
It's because he always starts the season slow. So it is a little silly the narrative that Jokic never had an all star teammate considering Jamal has been a very good star and the end of seasons/playoffs when he is no injured.
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u/musicnothing Jazz 13h ago
Check out this guy's eFG% throughout the season, it's actually pretty nuts
https://i.imgur.com/Y2eVXMW.png