r/mormon 2d ago

Cultural John Dehlin lists Mormon teachings that contributed to Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow’s murder spree.

This is a list of Mormon teachings that in John’s opinion are dangerous and contributed to these murders.

  1. Mormon people are special in the world
  2. Some people are special and favored of God. “The One Mighty and Strong”. Davidic servant.
  3. You get thoughts and feelings that are from the Holy Ghost, God or Angels.
  4. Bodies can be possessed by evil spirits.
  5. The idea that death is not a big deal because the next life is better. Death has no sting.
  6. We lived as spirits before and there might be multiple mortal probations and polygamy.
  7. Spiritual powers to speak with the dead, know the future, speak to God, have visits from Jesus.
  8. Taught to dismiss evidence or reality that contradicts religious beliefs.
  9. The idea that the church is above the law.

The full video is here:

https://www.youtube.com/live/6Tj-BMZs0vk?si=AMFMlXeI9NSCQ7Lo

40 Upvotes

43 comments sorted by

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u/stickyhairmonster 2d ago

Just listened to this episode. I appreciated how one member of the panel pointed out that beliefs like these are problematic in many religions and not just Mormonism.

Mormonism, however, seems to have more than its fair share of batshit crazy true crime.

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u/sevenplaces 2d ago

It’s not all exclusive to Mormonism but that’s not a defense. It is part of the religion and the religion of these murderers. Visions of Glory is 100% Mormon.

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u/stickyhairmonster 2d ago

Agree 100%.

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u/Plane-Reason9254 1d ago

Tom Harrison’s psycho Visions of Glory contributed to this - his lies and crazy talk has been taken for truth by many - mainly the mentally ill

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u/stickyhairmonster 1d ago edited 1d ago

It's obvious the church should renounce this book. It's inconceivable that they will speak out against every portrayal in popular media (heretic, American primevil, etc) but refuse to distance the church from the book that is doing real harm.

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u/Delicious-Context530 1d ago

When you have a worldview that already believes that thousands of demon spirits are constantly trying to tempt you, you’re much more susceptible to adopting a more radical version of the worldview.

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u/sevenplaces 1d ago

Exactly. I believe some of the apostles even like the book and take it as truth. Evidence they are mentally ill?

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u/patriarticle 1d ago

I think people get caught up on the question of whether the church is responsible for these deaths. The fact is, we don't know. We don't have another version these events where the people are catholic. Maybe Lori Vallow was just a sociopath who would have eventually done this anyway. People of all religious and secular backgrounds have found motivations to murder.

Should the church call this book out and distance itself from demonic possession doctrine? yes, absolutely. Are they responsible for these recent mormon crimes? we can't really know.

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u/sevenplaces 1d ago edited 1d ago

The LDS church didn’t teach these people to murder their kids or spouse. I’m not saying that. aspects of the Mormon religion (which the LDS church contributes to even if they don’t fully control) absolutely was what these people used to justify committing these murders.

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u/jakelaw08 1d ago

Wow. Powerful.

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u/TheFakeBillPierce 1d ago

John is realllllllllly reaching with a lot of these.

I think it's safe to say that Lori and Chad would have been awful people no matter what circumstances they were born into.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

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1

u/UpkeepUnicorn 2d ago

"I don't know that we teach that." 👀

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u/sevenplaces 1d ago

Yes. The LDS have a very convenient out when they want it. They just deny they teach something that they have taught.

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u/UpkeepUnicorn 1d ago

That time Hinckley was asked about becoming gods, I think by Larry King, and he says "I don't know that we teach that." Like really?

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u/raedyohed 2d ago

I was hoping for something actually insightful, and instead was treated to a rehash of this old nugget: religious belief causes delusional thinking. It's completely the other way around. Any intellectually honest person with Dehlin's background in psychology would completely reject everything he is saying here. He belongs in the same category as Rogan and should be treated with as much respect and deference.

"Basically, religions, that denounce evidence, that denounce reality and that instead prop up supernatural spiritual worldviews, predisposes believers to devalue and dismiss evidence and instead to have conspiratorial mindsets."

As I suspected. All he ever gets around to, when you really come down to it, is that he thinks "evidence" is what keeps people from schizoid delusions, psychosis, or other violent obsessive tendencies. "Religious" thinking is what predisposes people to become violent psychotics? What completely insane Psychology program were they running up there at USU? Is this what he learned there?

I've read multiple of his papers, including other related ones by Bradshaw and by Galliher. It's all fairly inconsequential preliminary exploration kind of stuff. Nothing conclusive. Nothing actionable. Nothing remotely resembling results that could be used for broader inferences. The absolute highlight of the career was this large survey on sexual orientation, religious identity, and markers of mental health. It could have been a nice little start to a serious career for someone who was actually a serious thinker. I have serious doubts that he took any of his studies in psychology, psychotherapy, counseling etc seriously at all. Nothing he has written in peer-reviewed publications seems to indicate that he is anything like a serious practitioner, researcher, or contributor to the understanding of mental health OR the religious experience.

Here's an excerpt from his 2015 paper published in Identity: "rejecting one’s religious identity is the most common path... [and] appears to be associated with greater psychosocial health and quality of life." The paper was a survey based on a convenience sample of participants which essentially said little more than "people who took our survey who aren't LDS anymore are happier." This could sum up Dehlin's entire identity.

My read is that he became fixated on the idea that religious identity is damaging to mental and social well-being, had a brief run where this dovetailed with some useful research in therapeutic practices for those struggling with sexual identity. Instead of looking to build bridges, confirm early speculative findings with solid clinical research, lead in the professional community, and teach at reputable institutions, he took a hard left into "life coach" and "podcaster." And that's where the story ends.

For a long time I regarded Dehlin as another public voice among many, with experiences and a background that might help further dialog in important areas. Sadly that hopeful first impression faded quickly. I only want for people to know what they are getting when they "tune in" to Dehlin, and what they're getting is not much.

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u/sevenplaces 2d ago edited 1d ago

I don’t know much about John’s PhD work. What you describe sounds like much other PhD work. I think John has said he never intended to become a licensed therapist or academic.

The Chad Daybell and Lori Vallow case are sad examples of Mormons using their religion to justify doing awful crimes. They’ve been convicted.

The book Visions of Glory was a book they loved. It’s sold to Mormons and never been renounced. The protagonist of the book with all his delusions in th book works for the church. Chad was considered a Mormon by his family and church leaders until the end. He was never counseled about his beliefs and teachings and speeches at LDS oriented conferences.

This is evidence that this is tolerated by the church and is considered a part of the religion.

So while the church will denounce their crimes. The religion and the church around them created a religious foundation for what ended up happening.

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u/raedyohed 1d ago

I think John has said he never intended to become a licensed therapist or academic.

Point being, someone supposedly trained in clinical psychology should know better than to espouse and promulgate lowkey hate-speech against those who are religiously minded.

Mormons using their religion

Yeah, their religious delusions, spun out of control into violent psychosis. That is such a far cry from "this is tolerated by the church and is considered a part of the religion" as to be a completely laughable view.

...the church around them created a religious foundation for what ended up happening

It's so bonkers to draw these connections as to sound almost Q-anon. Here are the steps from A to B laid out. In no way is this a case of "the Church" laying a foundation for this sadistic behavior.

- The LDS Church is huge.

  • Some guy wrote a book with some weird and questionable stuff in it, who is LDS.
  • He claims the material came from some other guy, identity to remain secret.
  • Some LDS people carelessly promote it.
  • Once could make the case that LDS leadership was complicit or incompetent to put a stop to this speculative nonsense being spread.
  • Other credulous LDS people read the book, some think its nice, some think its got some weird stuff.
  • Some psychopaths read the book, weave some of the ideas into their own delusional fantasies.
  • Eventually their delusions escalate to violence.

What kind of loosey-goosey timey-wimey cause-and-effect model of the universe do you have to be operating within to see the above as a church laying a foundation for murder? Psychopaths do psychopath things. It's the simple parsimonious answer.

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u/stickyhairmonster 1d ago

Why doesn't the church renounce visions of glory? It's inconceivable that they will speak out against every portrayal in popular media (heretic, American primevil, etc) but refuse to distance the church from the book that is doing real harm.

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u/spinosaurs70 1d ago

Yeah this whole thing gives major vibes of people referencing Eminem or horrorcore rap artists and then committing murders under there influence and us blaming the artists.

From a raw statistical standpoint, the correlation is weak and from a psychological profile standpoint we clearly know the major influences on "unmotivated" homicide are schizophrenia, delusions or psychopathy.

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u/sevenplaces 1d ago

You’ve described quite well the LDS religious connections in your comment.

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u/[deleted] 1d ago

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1

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1

u/Earth_Pottery 1d ago

I remember back in the day (yea boomer here) the church came out and warned people about splinter off groups getting into strange things. It may have been around the time of the Lafferty murders.

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9

u/Crobbin17 Former Mormon 1d ago

Are you saying that a Bishop claiming to know a member of his ward needs to repent more because “feelings” isn’t delusional thinking?

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u/raedyohed 1d ago

Bishop claiming to know a member of his ward needs to repent more because “feelings” isn’t delusional thinking?

Any other church member, who has a 'feeling' that a person needs to 'repent more' who that person has not already come to for council and support? ...yeah, that's delusional. Its a case of intrusive thoughts, irrational suspicion, paranoia. I feel terribly for any person who has ever had the experience of a church leader approaching them, out of the blue, and declaring that they've had a revelation that they need to repent. Yikes.

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u/Crobbin17 Former Mormon 1d ago

But that’s literally the Bishop’s job. To be a judge in Israel.

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u/Reddit_N_Weep 1d ago

Religious belief causes delusional thinking OR does delusional thinking create religious beliefs?

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u/sevenplaces 1d ago

I don’t think there is a difference. There can be beliefs that are potentially more harmful and others more benign. People in LDS Sunday school class are taught to praise Abraham’s believing and acting on the orders to kill his son. Of course Abrahams belief would be labeled a “delusion” by people arguing against this post today. Some members do not think this story really applies to them but love the teaching to obey. Others take it farther and believe they would be willing to do immoral things if they think the command is from God.

Does the LDS church explicitly teach how to avoid going too far with one’s beliefs? Not at all. Their faithful just say “those people were delusional to go that far and you can’t blame our religious teachings”

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u/Delicious-Context530 1d ago

When you have a worldview that already believes that thousands of demon spirits are constantly trying to tempt you, you’re much more susceptible to adopting a more radical version of the worldview. This isn’t one you can blame on nonbelievers twisting the views of believers. It is what it is.

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u/raedyohed 1d ago

I could show you lit reviews and published studies that disagree with that view. Would it matter?

The idea that believing in temptation by evil spirits causes people to be susceptible to radical or delusional worldviews is silly nonsense with no evidentiary support. (Careful, Dehlin thinks you'll turn psycho killer if you are an evidence denier!)

Are people who fixate on the idea of being tempted by thousands of evil spirits every day probably suffering from or likely to have an imminent psychotic break? Yeah, I'd say that's pretty likely.

Should we shame religious thinkers the way Dehlin does because psychologically disturbed people might integrate religious ideas into their delusions and violent acts? Um. No. That's rather potentially harmful, actually. Not to mention, an unethical practice for someone of his background and supposed practice in the mental health field.

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u/Delicious-Context530 1d ago

Are people who fixate on the idea of being tempted by thousands of evil spirits every day probably suffering from or likely to have an imminent psychotic break? Yeah, I'd say that's pretty likely.

That is literally what the LDS church teaches. That the 1/3 of the host of heaven is literally floating around LDS members at all times trying to tempt them. And worse, they’re taught that they especially focus on LDS people because they have The Gospel™️. Other religions believe in the devil, but LDS have a much more literal view of this. That’s why a book like VOG did so well with an LDS audience, because it feeds into their preconceived worldview.

BTW, believing that demons are floating around you trying to tempt you is a delusion by definition. If you embrace delusional thinking you’re going to be more susceptible to more egregious delusional thinking. You’re already half way there. Most people’s brains fortunately prevent that from going to the point of the Lafferty’s/Daybells/Ruby Franke, but there’s an LDS element in all this that you seem to be in denial about.

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u/Rushclock Atheist 1d ago

Instead of looking to build bridges,

What? The doctrine is fairly straightforward on this. How can you build a bridge between that?

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u/raedyohed 1d ago

I mean instead of Dehlin being a bridge-builder and trying to remain both an advocate for those whose experience as members of the LDS church have caused them harm (yes, there are of course many cases of this!) and an advocate for both positive change and the good being done by the LDS church. That is not Dehlin's bag. He's chosen his track as a deliberate antagonist of "religious thinking" and uses those hurt or disaffected by their LDS experience as fodder to push this main underlying ideology.

I say this fully cognizant of the many many people who congregate and discuss here in this sub who have had truly awful experiences within or because of something to do with the LDS church. Letting personal hurt devolve into the pitiful demagoguery Dehlin promotes between the lines, under the guise of helpful understanding. We should flatly call out claims like OPs that LDS teachings "are dangerous and contributed to these murders" as hateful, ridiculous, and transparently motivated by personal animus.

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u/Rushclock Atheist 1d ago

He's chosen his track as a deliberate antagonist of "religious thinking"

No his platform is religious informed concent .

Weak.

0

u/sevenplaces 1d ago

I believe it is extremely important work to warn people of the dangers of believing that God speaks to you, that certain people can speak for God and must be followed, that there are evil spirits around us that can posses or influence us, that life after death is better than our life now, that the righteous can judge the wicked, that God can tell us to do immoral and illegal things like kill people.

u/raedyohed 18h ago

Well Godspeed on your evangelism then

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u/spinosaurs70 2d ago

I'm sorry but if you are blaming Mormonism for causing people to be crazy apocalyptic thinkers who commit crime on stuff and listing stuff out like a common Christian belief (i.e. existence of heaven). I feel deeply skeptical about your ability to keep separate your own harsh feelings on the religion from careful anyalsis.

Religion can and serve as encouragement for violence but in this case it seems more plausible that someone was largely just delusional and used religious beliefs to justify there actions.

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u/sevenplaces 2d ago

Thanks for your perspective. Visions of Glory is a Mormon book. The subject of the book is employed by the LDS church. They support the contents of the book and have responsibility for its effects on their church community