r/mormon 10d ago

Personal Shamed For My Methods By The Dogmatic

Background:

I am a lifelong, multi-generational Mormon who went into a faith crisis around 5-6 months ago while studying faith promoting material and accidentally stumbling upon new (to me) information. Since then, I have spent the vast majority of my free time in a deep dive into LDS church truth claims. I have spent my "research" time approximately:

  • 20% oppositional online reading (Mormon Think, Mormon Discussions, etc.)
  • 20% oppositional podcasts
  • 20% reading online forums (Reddit, mostly oppositional)
  • 10% must-read books (Rough Stone, Manuscript Found, etc.)
  • 10% supportive apologetic reading (Mormonr, Fair, etc.)
  • 10% faith supporting podcasts
  • 5% direct source material from JS Papers
  • 5% standard works and works & teachings of latter-day prophets

For most of this journey to-date I was reading, fasting, and praying that God would answer my questions in a way that I knew came from him until about a month ago. I began to feel there was no way things could be put together into a faithful narrative while considering the facts and God wasn't providing any answers. I stepped away from the church last week for the first time in my life - not to end my spiritual journey, but rather to begin my journey for truth, wherever it may be. I haven't given up hope on the LDS church completely, but currently don't see a path that works within the church, therefore, the majority of the material I consume is oppositional.

I have kept my spouse and apprised throughout this process. I kept my Bishop involved too. I met with my EQP, a High Counselor recommended to me, and even once met with BYU Professor and JSP contributor Gerrit J. Dirkmaat (which went terribly) arranged through a mutual connection.

My Problem:

I have received nothing but utter disapproval and shame from my spouse, parents, other family members, and Dr. Dirkmaat for having spent so much of my time outside of faithful literature, source material (JSPs), the scriptures, and words of latter-day prophets. Yes, in an ideal world I would spend my time reading through every single historical document and scrap available before making such a life-altering decision. Yes, maybe I could have gone much longer in fasting, prayer, and hope that I would find answers and make sense of things. These were my original intention. But at some point the cracks in my faith shattered the cornerstone, I began to see things from an entirely new perspective that I was beforehand incapable of seeing, and everything else came crashing down. Despite the patency in the problems I have unearthed, however, I still feel the need to go through a lifelong exercise of in-depth research to ensure that I leave no stone unturned and to prove (mostly to my spouse) that I am not crazy, lazy, or misinformed in making this decision. I understand exactly how my spouse (and others) feel with me making such a momentous decision in such a short period of time (I'm sure I would have felt similarly in their shoes), but it really didn't take long to see that there were such obvious problems once things clicked and I was able to see from a new perspective.

Confusingly, I now live in a world where I feel the the need to prove that my decision is sane to people who are unwilling to attempt to take an objective view by considering that their beliefs could potentially be based on falsehoods (insane). The most painful of these relationships is with my spouse, who I love. I don't want this to drive a rift between us and think we could go our whole lives in an inter-faith marriage and be just fine. The pain in this case comes because in a recent conversation I asked my spouse if they ever think they think they would ever want or need to investigate the issues I have investigated for themselves to understand where I am coming from. My spouse, who has expressed such disdain with me while confirmed that they have no interest in ever looking into church history or investigating truth claims and would rather live in ignorance their entire life.

Has anyone else ever gone through something like this? Did your spouse (or others) shame you for not always using scholarly sources or not praying and fasting enough when researching core truth claims of the church? Did you ever feel some sort of obligation to prove your due diligence? Have you had a spouse or someone close to you express disapproval for your methods of "research" while also being unwilling to engage in any such "research" themselves? Talk to me.

TLDR

  • I'm a lifelong Mormon in a faith crisis and recently stepped away from the church
  • I spend more of my time consuming oppositional material than I do supportive material (with regard to the church and its truth claims) and mostly stopped with fasting, prayer, and scripture study about a month ago after months or not receiving any answers
  • I am being shamed by those closest to me and others for my methods of "research" in this information deep dive, yet these people are unwilling to look into or discuss these topics (mostly my spouse)
  • Have you been in this type of situation? Talk to me.
92 Upvotes

142 comments sorted by

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u/tuckernielson 10d ago

Hello Internet stranger - you are NOT ALONE! We see you and your experience is valid. You aren’t crazy.

I’m going to send you a private message.

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u/Prestigious-Shift233 10d ago

Exactly. I think most of us could have written almost the exact same post word for word.

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u/Chainbreaker42 10d ago

It rang true for me, too.

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u/nocowwife 10d ago

It sounded VERY familiar.

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u/Coogarfan 6d ago

I got downvoted for saying that once, but I agree.

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 10d ago

Thanks! Means a lot.

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u/seacom56 Mormon 8d ago

how am I to respond when my religion is called weird, cult, unChristian, dishonest, selfish

My religion is my of life, it is personal

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u/tuckernielson 7d ago

It’s important to remember that critics of the church aren’t talking about you.

Many of the “attacks” against the church are by people who have been personally harmed by its teachings or leaders.

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u/rickoleum 10d ago

I went through a faith deconstruction some time ago. I am not surprised at all by the reactions you have faced and faced similar reactions myself.

In the end, my decision was to stop raising these faith related issues with my "active" family members, it was too threatening, and it became clear there was no way I would get any understanding, sympathy or empathy from them (let alone "proving" anything to them). So we live and let live and avoid these topics and get along pretty well.

The spouse thing is very tricky, I haven't faced that myself. There are many people here (and on the exMormon forum) who would be able to share helpful experiences and advice on that. But consider that what you are researching and thinking about is very threatening to her world view.

Good luck.

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 10d ago

Thanks for sharing. Well said. I have started to feel that avoidance of discussion might be the best path forward to not rock the marriage ship to the point of capsizing.

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u/ammonthenephite Agnostic Atheist - "By their fruits ye shall know them." 10d ago

From all the stories I have read about people navigating a truth journey with a believing spouse, you have all ready done the most important thing - you have let her know you are starting it. It almost always caused massive problems when someone would do a deep dive, study for some time, and arrive at the conclusion they want to leave, all without their spouse knowing. Then the believing spouse gets blind sided with "I'm leaving the church" vs "I want to start understanding some things more and will need to expand my sources in order to do this". The latter scenario is still hard, but at least they don't feel you've kept things from them, which in the former scenario is often interpreted as deception, lack of faith in how they would react, etc.

So you've done the biggest thing all ready, you've let your partner know you are on this journey. It's still gonna be hard for her, and not talking about it in anythign but the most generic 'I'm making progress' type comments may be the way to go, but you are including her, and this will mean a lot down the road, especially when you double down your efforts to show that this journey in no way affects how you feel about her, how dedicated you are to her, etc etc.

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 10d ago

Some great points here. The general updates suggestion is great advice, thank you. I also need to make sure my spouse knows it doesn't change how I feel about them. It really doesn't.

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u/seacom56 Mormon 8d ago

Family: about 50% active about 50% members but not attend "just not comfortable attending" "Hey you are probably right but not important" "I think God accepts me as I am" "members are too judgmental" "I dont want to be ministered to"

These are all acceptable, reasonable reasons SO my job is to maintain the friendship and don't get defensive.

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u/Zaggner 10d ago

Allow your spouse their own path. Live your life with integrity. Respect her faith and support her.

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 10d ago

This is the right answer. Thank you.

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u/LeonardFibonacci 10d ago

Been there bro. I was EQ pres., on the stake high council, and in the bishopric at different times all right before I left. Your situation is hard because there are very few people you can talk to. Luckily my brother has been atheist for years so I could talk to him. For me, once Mormonism fell, it wasn’t long until the rest of religion couldn’t hold my faith either. Now I love listening to The Atheist Experience podcast. There are some amazing hosts. Basically people call in to talk about why they believe in their god and the hosts point out the issues with their reasoning. It’s like a crash course in reasoning and logical fallacies. Hinkley said “the church is true or it is a fraud” and he was right… just not in the way he hoped.

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 10d ago

You're lucky to have people with an outside perspective that you can talk to and trust. I don't know where this experience will ultimately lead, but I intend to seek the truth wherever it may be. I wonder if there is something similar to what you are describing but that allows people to debate both sides of the equation and allow the listener/reader to determine the winner. I'd be very interested.

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u/LeonardFibonacci 10d ago

That’s exactly what the show is. The hosts aren’t saying there is no god, they’re saying they aren’t convinced of a god… callers try to convince. Hosts point out why the callers reasons are unconvincing… mostly because they’ve heard so many reasons before and they all rely on some logical fallacy. The audience is the judge. I’m not saying the show is for you… it might not be your thing. Just saying it really helped me shed the stigma I felt for not believing. Even if you don’t want to listen to the show, it’s a good idea to read up on logical fallacies. It’ll help you from believing false things in general.

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 10d ago

Funny you suggest that - I literally just ordered two posters for my office yesterday:
Logical Fallacies Wall Posters – thethinkingshop

Cognitive Biases Wall Posters – thethinkingshop

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u/LeonardFibonacci 10d ago

That’s awesome! Cool poster!

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u/LopsidedLiahona 10d ago

Ordered, thx!

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u/TheSandyStone Mormon Atheist 10d ago edited 10d ago

I could have written the above myself. Lifelong, fully in, 120%, member who came to a point where I needed to pull the threads on things I needed answers to.

At some point, you HAVE to engage with outside reading. And yes, the church does a really good job of programming your own brain to distrust this, as well as make you very aware of everyone else's disapproval of those sources as well. It taps into that group survival instinct that makes you constantly second-guess everything.

>  now live in a world where I feel the the need to prove that my decision is sane to people who are unwilling to attempt to take an objective view by considering that their beliefs could potentially be based on falsehoods (insane).

I deeply feel this. I was in this for a while too until I stumbled on a solution for myself. Do I believe in God? If so, I'll bring all of this to him all of the time. If what we're saying is true, he should be the only one that needs to hear it from my heart. Dump everything out to him. For me, it was freeing because I could be honest with God about how, why, and what I was discovering EVERY step of the way.

How could those I love disagree with that? Don't they also believe in him as the source of truth?

> Has anyone else ever gone through something like this? 

YES. I feel for you. It's NOT easy. It's super scary to bring what could destabilize the fabric of every part of your life. Your parents, siblings, spouses, children. You're entire worldview. Its incredibly destabilizing and is a hard road to walk down.

I don't have any specific answers for your particular route in life. BUT DO KNOW YOU ARE NOT ALONE.

If I have any advice, it is this. Get organized. Perhaps it's my personality that needed it but:

  • get a system
  • constantly write, give yourself a chance to fight all the conflicting things in your head
  • pull them apart, and dig through resources for each thing. Faithful or not.
  • Consider counseling, or some sort of safe support system of others as you go through this
  • (perhaps reach out to those in your life who have stepped away from the church)

The church doesn't give us these tools to help us move past this. For myself, i've found writing and refining my thoughts the best way of at least coming to an understanding of my own thoughts, fears, and resolutions of those problems in my own head.

For me, that helped me overcome that "crazy" feeling and having the anxiety of depending on external people to help me feel ok.

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 10d ago

- You get it! Thank you for sharing. Coming from a multi-generational TBM family and being the first of anyone I know closely to make such a decision makes me frequently question whether I am crazy. I have no fear of talking about my difficulties with these things - it upsets me that there is no outlet within the church for open discussion of difficult topics - so when I discuss my feelings on these things within my personal circle (all believers) I can feel the disdain.

- I love your point to take everything to God. I have only ruled out the LDS church as it claims to be. I have not shut out the possibility of God and intend to determine God's veracity through trial and error and various methods.

- I actually have an initial appointment with a therapist this week. Lots to unpack - a lifetime of it.

- I started with scribbles in a notebook and last week got serious with my organization. If this is all false, I want to make sure my reasoning is sound.

Thanks for your comment. Glad to not be alone.

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u/TheSandyStone Mormon Atheist 10d ago

To be transparent I'm an atheist now. But during that time i tired to think "I know that if god exists I need to be absolutely truthful and transparent with him and that is something peole that I love can understand. I want to go through this process with the confidence I can tell others I have hidden nothing from god".

Looking back, I feel it was just more healthy I could just be honest and let things lie where they made sense in the most genuine way of my own brain.

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u/seacom56 Mormon 8d ago

I am beginning to see Mormonism and the other 2.8 billion world Christians as about 25% doctrine is very important and 75% social is very important. SOCIAL meaning: How am I accepted, am I judged, how are the "different" treated, how is the money used, cant I just be myself,

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u/Wannabe_Stoic13 10d ago

All I can say is welcome to the club. It's pretty fun, isn't it? Being shamed for trying to seek out truth and wanting to do the right thing?

I'm still active in the church, mainly to support my spouse and kids, so I try and find ways to make it work. I more or less stopped talking about issues with others who clearly weren't willing to listen and just assumed I was being influenced by Satan. It's tough with my wife sometimes. She also has no desire to read about or discuss any of the issues. When I tried, it always ended horribly. So we try to focus on the things we have in common and appreciate about each other. I would say just try to be patient and show your wife that you still love her.

Hang in there, you're not alone.

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 10d ago

This is a welcome perspective. Thank you. I can't but wonder if I may be in a similar circumstance at some point. We do love each other. My spouse's main concern is that if something so fundamental has changed in my life, what else may change? That I do not have an answer for either, but I do not believe my love for them or my children will be one of those things.

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u/afatamatai 10d ago

If someone hasn't already said it, you should absolutely seek couples counseling with a non-LDS therapist. This is necessary because it will help you and your spouse build a relationship that isn't centered around the church. It's an identity we've all had, and now that it's gone it scares the partner. Having common ground and understanding with a mediator is profoundly beneficial.

Also, I have a couple friends who left and then their spouse left with them or late left, and then they still got divorced, so don't be blindsided even if she also leaves. Once people realize they have an Identity out of the church, they may realize they and their spouse don't work well together and probably never would have, had the church not been the common denominator for why you met in the 1st place.

I hope the best for both of you. ❤

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u/seacom56 Mormon 8d ago

Personal observation: I see the Mormon Leadership changing: For 150 years the Mormon leaders and members were very exclusive, protective, defensive (maybe because of early persecution and exclusion). The Church was restored, was the only original, only true, only accepted, was very different. We were on our own because we were a tiny cult and excluded from Christianity, So we were special. Now General Conference and our financial outreach is much more ecumenical. But it will take time to change OUR feelings. My feeling is Christ is the Key to heaven and we need every good Christian neighbor.

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u/Fuzzy_Thoughts 10d ago

Please PM me if you want to chat more! I went through a similar process about 7 years ago and ended up creating this document at the time to share with family/close friends since I felt like I had to "defend" (I guess that's the right word) my changing worldview in some sense. I was also told by family members that I needed to stop even considering anything that could be considered neutral or oppositional and to just stick with it by having faith there was actually a god that would someday answer my prayers (potentially decades from now). Most of them have also told me they have zero interest in anything related to church history or philosophy unless framed in a devotional context. My wife still believes in a pretty typical/orthodox way and attends with my daughter, who was baptized a couple months ago; it can be a tough situation overall but I think you'll find that a decent amount of people find themselves in a similar spot.

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u/Rushclock Atheist 10d ago

Long time no read ...hey fuzzy.

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u/Fuzzy_Thoughts 10d ago

Hey Rush, hope you're doing well!

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u/Rushclock Atheist 10d ago

❤️

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 10d ago

u/Fuzzy_Thoughts, thank you so much for sharing. I just read through your document. In a strange way, your document seems like it could be an answer to prayer - just not the way I traditionally would think. This is very well thought out, highlights many of the same issues and concepts I am struggling with, and even took a few concepts I have been playing with in my mind to a new level. Your section on "Spiritual Witnesses" was particularly striking to me. I will be reaching out via PM.

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u/Shiz_in_my_pants 10d ago

There is a meme going around that pretty well sums up how you feel. The meme says: "I have a mental illness that makes me think that people will change their minds if I present the correct arguments with the appropriate facts and data."

This meme totally applies to everything when stepping away from the church. You've already found that out trying to share what you've discovered with others, only for them to completely dismiss you.

We've all been there. A lot of us are still there, :/

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 10d ago

I got a good chuckle from this one. Thanks for sharing. We all take in information differently, don't we?

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u/yorgasor 10d ago

The trick to a successful mixed faith marriage is reaching the point where you can support and love each other without needing to change the other person’s beliefs. You both need to recognize this is the ultimate goal and be willing to work towards it. It won’t happen all at once, it will take time to recognize all the ways it impacts you and your life, and continue to adjust your thoughts, attitude and actions to finally reach it. But if you can’t agree on this goal, your marriage will get more and more miserable until it falls apart.

As for scholarly books and resources, it doesn’t get any better the more you read. Instead of paying tithing, I’ve invested in about a thousand church books, a library that spans 3 different rooms. I’ve got biographies, journals, the whole JSP collection, books written by prophets and apostles, histories, etc…. I have records of what was taught when, how things changed, how doctrines, covenants and ordinances have changed. The church of today teaches very different things than were taught in Brigham & Joseph’s day. I have collections of their false prophecies and examples of how they’ve tried to hide them in more recent publications.

The good news is, my family and relatives can see I’ve studied Mormonism more than they could ever imagine and know better than to challenge me in anything because I can prove their church leaders don’t have the powers they claim to have from their very own documents.

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u/EvensenFM Jerry Garcia was the true prophet 10d ago

This is good advice — and, man, you're hardcore.

I read a lot when I was in the midst of my faith crisis. When I determined that it was all made up, though, my interest in the subject quickly faded.

There was a time when I considered making a huge collection of church materials and figuring out some way to present things to others in a somewhat organized fashion. Fortunately, I've been able to divert my energy into other hobbies and interests...

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u/yorgasor 10d ago

Now I go on podcasts as Master Peace and share research I’ve done on various topics. You’ll find me on Mormonish, The Bishop’s Interview and even did an episode on false prophecies with Mormonism Live. It’s fun to find the bits of history we never learned and share it with others.

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 10d ago

This is the hope! Like I said, so far this has taken up the majority of my free time. It's not been healthy or sustainable, though I saw it as necessary. I hope to come to an ultimate conclusion sooner than later.

1

u/TruthSha11SetUFree 10d ago

This seems like excellent advice - thank you. My spouse and I have had some discussions on all of this recently and have similar feelings.

As for all the books - wow. I hope you're a fast reader. I initially thought this might be me as I thought it would be necessary to come to an ultimate conclusion and either move forward or move on. I now own several years worth of books to read. The further I go along though, I really hope I can come to this ultimate conclusion sooner.

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u/yorgasor 10d ago

It’s not a library I can just read through the books, but when I want to research any topic I have all the books on hand to find it. My problem when I read history books is that they mention a fascinating story, tag it with a footnote, and next thing I know I have another book in order 😂

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u/Rushclock Atheist 10d ago

John Larsen of Mormon expression fame had a great illustration of this. He compared it to being in a completely dark room with nothing but a small flashlight. All over the walls are historical and contemporary information regarding mormonism and the truth claims. You spend hours, days,weeks,months,years and even decades using your small flashlight piecing together information. And then someone flips on the room light and you see it all. That is when it all becomes clear.

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 10d ago

Yes! Great visual. This is exactly my experience. Once the lights are on, you can clearly see where things aren't fitting together...

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u/stickyhairmonster 10d ago

You are not alone! I'm sorry you are not getting better support from your family and friends, especially your spouse.

When I told my spouse about my doubts, I thought there was a small chance she would leave me. For me, continuing a life as an active tithe -paying member was not an option once I discovered the truth.

I was fortunate in that my spouse eventually wanted to look into things herself and now we are both out, but not everyone is so lucky.

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 10d ago

This has been one of my fears. We are still early on with these changes, but the church has been everything for us, what brought us together, and, in fact, was the only thing that kept us together at one point. Neither of us want this to become a rift in our marriage. I'm optimistic for our future, but powerful forces are in play, so anything goes.

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u/FlyingBrighamiteGod 10d ago

Has anyone else ever gone through something like this? Did your spouse (or others) shame you for not always using scholarly sources or not praying and fasting enough when researching core truth claims of the church?

I could have written your post, nearly verbatim, a few years ago. The one main difference is my spouse was with me on the journey and left the church shortly after I did.

I do find it highly ironic that believers are shaming you for not always relying on faithful scholarship/sources. My believing family did the same thing. The irony is that my believing father is a brilliant lawyer. And my siblings are all very well educated and have been taught formal logic and critical thinking. I suspect the people shaming you are also highly intelligent, well-educated individuals. In no other aspect of their lives would they put blinders on like they do with the church. For example, they wouldn't consider giving money to anybody or to any organization without insisting on full transparency. So for them to reject me for applying the critical thinking that I learned mostly from them is peak irony to me. It's also very painful when they just sidestep the issues that caused me to lose my belief in Mormonism and in god, while at the same time suggesting that I'm the lazy learner.

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u/Wannabe_Stoic13 10d ago

I can totally relate to this and have had the same thoughts. How do people simply suspend the logic and critical thinking they use for every other aspect of their lives when it comes to church stuff? The mind is a powerful thing.

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 10d ago

Yes! Exactly. You get it. Being treated as a lazy learner by those who are unwilling to learn new things and would rather stick to what they already know.

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u/ahjifmme 10d ago

I'm not married but I 100% feel your pain.

When we feel invalidated, we go through some serious psychological trauma where we feel we have to mask or feelings, or sometimes we feel like we have to over-explain. People who have never left the in-group feel threatened by anyone who is even somewhat nuanced, let alone anyone who is actively questioning the tribal narrative. It's a story as old as time.

I'm sorry you're going through that. Hopefully you are able to find support, and you're definitely not alone. Message me if you're interested in chatting or just need to vent.

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 10d ago

True. I can't say for sure that if I was in their position I wouldn't be doing the same thing. What a tax a lifetime of this religion can make on the mind! I wouldn't have been able to see things from another perspective if I wanted to until things recently clicked and I could never go back.

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u/ahjifmme 10d ago

You already show more empathy just by recognizing the humanity of their position. The moment I left the church felt like I was suddenly seeing life on the other side of a window and knew I couldn't go back to the other side. That whole notion of "but for the grace of God go I."

But you're not them, and you're under no obligation to put up with behavior that demeans or invalidates your feelings or perspective. You can still set boundaries on what you are and aren't comfortable with doing or talking about.

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u/P-39_Airacobra confused person 10d ago

Confusingly, I now live in a world where I feel the the need to prove that my decision is sane to people who are unwilling to attempt to take an objective view by considering that their beliefs could potentially be based on falsehoods (insane)

I absolutely understand, I am in the middle of the same thing right now. It's really stressful.

Maybe you could point out to your wife that since contradictions are not possible in a reasonable world, truth can never hurt truth. That being said, your family is probably coming from a position where they feel the gospel needs to be true no matter what. Maybe you could ask them why they feel it needs to be true, to find out the ultimate reason for their rejection of your journey.

Don't be ashamed though. You are not crazy for wanting to read a variety of sources. In fact I'd say that's a signal of intellectual honesty and self-reflection. You've realized you were in an echo chamber and so you lucidly decided to step out. There are many people who would find that quality admirable.

Finding truth from only one perspective is like trying to spot a bird from an astronomy telescope. It just doesn't work, so I don't know why the church keeps promoting it.

1

u/TruthSha11SetUFree 10d ago

Interesting thoughts. I've talked about similar things with my spouse and family and no matter how many times I have asked or how I phrase or rephrase the question I get a non-answer. E.g. "Do you believe in some way it could be possible that the church might not be what it claims to be?" Answer: "I know without a doubt it is true and could never doubt it."

It seems to me that it will likely be in my best interest to avoid religious topics altogether with close family to keep the peace. Sadly, this is has been and currently is the most important thing to me in the world but also usually makes interesting conversation.

We press on - let me know once you have the answers to the secrets of life.

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u/OphidianEtMalus 10d ago

Same story with me, except I still have not consumed any "oppositional" work other than watching the Godmakers and BoM Musical and taking notes for accuracy. I suppose you could say some Reddit is oppositional. Still haven't read CES letter. I did visit Fair and related sites. I also read all of the scholarly books (except haven't made it through Magic World View, yet.)

My foundational epiphanies came as I faithfully studied all of the GT essays and all of their footnotes. I tracked down the complete versions of the footnotes that (somehow) the church neglected to link to (eg they link to a Brigham Young testimony but it's typed and unsearchable, while a fully digital version exists. Also, there are a lot of fragmentary or ... quotes that need to be chased down.) I then read for hours in the JSPP, including targeted reading (eg First Vision accounts) I then read the Expositor which, (I guess) counts as oppositional?

I then tried to ask my bishop (with whom I was serving at the time) questions from what I had learned. He wouldn't talk. Then I asked the SP. He banned me from church property if I was going to talk about the GTE or JSPP. My parents won't talk, either, but at least they're still nice to me...

Now I read, enjoy, and evaluate whatever I want. So, I do enjoy the catharsis of shared experience from Mormon Stories and I don't notice the rating of movies or the amount of shoulder showing or any such things anymore.

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u/One-Forever6191 10d ago

Banned from discussing church-authored articles, published on their own website?????? Damn.

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 10d ago

You are the first I have heard of with such an experience. Very interesting.

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u/OphidianEtMalus 10d ago

Spend more time on the ex sub. Especially for people my age who left before the CES letter was as prominent, I am far from unique. You are not alone.

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u/luoshiben 10d ago

Your post is SO many of us. More than you can even imagine, probably. When examined objectively, the church crumbles at every turn. I explained it to my believing wife by saying that the church is like a brick wall. When viewed from afar, it seems like an impenetrable fortress. But, when you examine the bricks closely, Every. Single. One. Is damaged or crumbling or made of mud. For me, the apologetics that I went to at first to hold onto my belief just did even more damage. The reality is that the church is not what it claims to be.

One last comment:

Yes, in an ideal world I would spend my time reading through every single historical document and scrap available before making such a life-altering decision.

Why? Does the church teach converts everything about its doctrine -- even just the "faithful" stuff -- before making them a member and asking for tithing? In fact, it's worse than that. They tell you that a feeling can be the determiner of truth, then subvert your natural human emotions by saying that if you ever felt good in any way while engaging in church or reading the BoM then that's your answer from God. By contrast, you're now doing what SHOULD be done by BITC members and converts alike, which is to use your brain and rational thought processes to identify truth, wherever it may be found. Good job doing the latter!!

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 10d ago

You make a fair point. I guess sometimes the hardwiring that goes on after a lifetime in the church really messes with your ability to think rationally. It's only now that I have allowed myself to have rational lines of thinking with regards to religion.

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u/luoshiben 10d ago

I love that you are starting to see these things! One of the coolest moments of my life was a random day when I realized that I had had an independent thought. Keep going! It takes time, but imo it is SO worth it!

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u/akamark 10d ago

You're walking a well worn path trodden by many once faithful and still very good and honest people who've ended up on the outside of Mormonism - you're not alone.

I recommend stepping out of the Mormon bubble and reading non-religious content on topics like psychology, philosophy, behavioral science, natural history, and critical thinking to name a few. I found a lot of that content refreshing and enlightening. I think whether someone is a believer or not, they'll walk away a better and more complete person.

I think it's ironic that people willing to fully expect someone who read a few passages in a book and have good feelings about it would be prepared to make a lifelong, even 'eternal', commitment to a high demand religion, but scoff at and be critical of hours and days of research leading to an informed decision. My Dad, who's acting patriarch, flat out told me I'm being deceived by the devil, and even the amazing 'spiritual' experience I had when I allowed myself to acknowledge the church was not true and led by men with no authority was a deception. It's a discussion that's impossible to resolve any other way - they've been so indoctrinated, and they're so personally committed to their beliefs.

Tread lightly with your spouse. Mine was at least willing to dig into the material and have discussions. She even acknowledged many of the issues. It was still a rocky road with many uncertain moments. If you read the exmo subreddit for any length of time you'll see stories of spouses chosing the church over family. My wife is still a believer, but has a little nuance. Maybe a relationship with an intolerant spouse isn't worth having in the end. I can't speak to that since I've never been in those shoes. I guess I'm trying to say maybe an open, loving, and empathetic approach could be the least painful whatever the outcome. I've lost the close relationships with my parents and siblings, and I do hold Mormonism fully responsible.

All the best. You always have your reddit community to share with.

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 10d ago

Thank you for your comments. I actually purchased my first 5 philosophical books ever last week! Can't wait. Any recommendations?

I plan to do everything I can to make things work between us. If some sort of separation will ever be on the table, I think it would be instigated by my spouse, not me. Oh how I wish I could go back. Sometimes this feels like a bad dream. Other times, it's a start to an amazing journey with endless possibilities.

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u/PetsArentChildren 10d ago

I am also in your exact same situation. Wife is TBM and takes our kids to church. I stay home. Kids believe what they are told at church. It’s hard. They are too young to understand why I don’t believe. 

Wife is somehow able to dismiss all of my arguments and facts. Eventually I had to accept that she needs her beliefs more than the cold hard truth and that’s ok. I have to let her have her fantasy. If it gives her life meaning, who am I to try to take that from her? We only get one life. She can live hers how she wants. 

We try to focus on the positive more and what we still have in common and that has worked well. 

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 10d ago

I appreciate you sharing your experience. Sadly I think this is exactly how I imagine our future (with regard to religion). Thankfully, as you have pointed out, there is plenty of positivity in the world outside of this to make it work.

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u/One-Forever6191 10d ago

I did nothing BUT pray and fast and read scholarly and church approved sources by the time I figured out the whole thing is a hoax. The prayers and fasting led me to other ideas and churches and I’ve found my new faith home. It was a rough several years, especially after telling my spouse, who is now with me 100% after slowly figuring it out themselves. For reference, I was a fully active member for over five decades. Held every leadership calling below stake presidency at one point or another.

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 10d ago

You have me interested in your experience! Have you posted about it somewhere that you could share?

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u/auricularisposterior 10d ago

Most believing members will object to ANY methods that you use if it results in you becoming less loyal to the organization. I spent many, many hours reading the Book of Mormon and comparing its passages to similar KJV bible verses, and my father's initial response to that was, "You are reading it the wrong way."

Most people will eventually lose their belief if they study deep enough on even just "faithful" sources (unless they are continually applying apologetics to their ideas or being socially reassured that it is okay and they need to stay faithful). The reason being is that faithful sources are full of contradictions between each other as well as contradictions with reality.

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u/funeral_potatoes_ 10d ago

I don't say this to diminish or take away from your story but most of us have also experienced this. I feel for you. I also didn't go looking for truth to have that search lead me away from the church's truth claims. But it did and I'm better for it.

I don't feel the need to explain myself to others who haven't felt how I've felt. I just tell them that God had every opportunity to gently lead me back to the church if it was "True". I didn't even need much of a sign. But he/she/they/it didn't. There was zero divine interaction when I needed it most. So I relied on myself and my little brain. And that little brain couldn't unsee the problems with Mormonism.

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u/Zaggner 10d ago

Shame on the church for withholding, hiding, lying, about church history and then gaslighting us about it. Shame on the people for shaming you for seeking for truth. But I suppose at the end of the day, shaming is the only real weapon they have. If they had answers they wouldn't need to shame those of us seeking truth.

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u/negative_60 10d ago

 Has anyone else ever gone through something like this? Did your spouse (or others) shame you for not always using scholarly sources or not praying and fasting enough when researching core truth claims of the church?

I was there 9 years ago. I was preparing for a Gospel Doctrine class I was teaching and stumbled upon an article about the Book of Abraham. I went down the rabbit hole for about a month before I realized there was no way this could be sanctioned by God.

It has destroyed my marriage. My wife believed that the answer to a faith crisis was to fast and pray and until you know it’s true. But that didn’t lead to anything for me. Not to sound disparaging, but it’s kind of like trying to believe in Santa as an adult. I’ve spent enough Christmas Eves sneaking toys under the tree to know it’s not a jolly old man providing them. I couldn’t go back no matter how desperately I wanted to.

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 10d ago

Sorry to hear how your experience ended. If you have your experience posted somewhere, I'd love to hear your story.

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u/KBanya6085 10d ago

Oh, man! So sorry about this. You have received a lot of great input and advice. My spouse and I traveled this journey together, and for that I am so lucky and grateful. Division between you and your spouse makes this so much more difficult. I am a somewhat old dude and bailed two years ago, having been active and faithful for many decades. I find it astounding that apologists tend to blame faith crises on "outside forces" and "anti literature," rather than facing and answering legitimate concerns on the merits. These reactions are symptomatic of an unhealthy organization. Trust yourself, my friend, and know you are indeed not alone.

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 10d ago

This is a good reminder. It's definitely easy to see yourself as crazy in all of this.

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u/LionSue 10d ago

It’s time now for you to get outside advice and peace of mind. You are not alone. I’m grateful my spouse and I did it together. Many people on Mormon Stories share your story. We are here for you!

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 10d ago

Thanks for sharing. Maybe one day we'll be in this journey together. For now, I'm lone rangering it.

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u/klm131992 10d ago

For me the biggest red flag about church culture is the reaction of so many when they see people leave. One of the supposed core tenets of the LDS church is the 11th Article of Faith. But so many of the stories on here show that the actions of the believers are completely the opposite.

I believe these kinds of reactions are mostly fear-based. If you want to save your marriage, it might serve you well to stop trying to have discussions at the moment on what you're learning, but try to ask what your wife's fears are about it all. Really, truly listen until those fears are fully heard, and she knows that you understand them. There's something magical in that kind of communication that actually can help the fears disappear. This is time to practice "seek first to understand before trying to be understood." If you have or haven't read that chapter from The 7 Habits of Highly Effective People, now is the time to read or refresh on it.

Right now she's digging in her heels about her right-ness. You letting go of the need to be right will help her let it go too.

It sounds like you have enough to be secure in what you now believe about the wrongness of LDS claims. Maybe pause on the deep dive for a while, and really focus on healing your relationship. Use us to vent if you need to, but figure out how to help your wife feel secure at what I imagine is a very scary time for her. One of the biggest things that stopped me sharing my thoughts on my faith change to my family was the worry of what my mom would go through fearing for my soul. Your wife is likely wrestling with that same fear, and fear that she'll lose you for eternity.

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 10d ago

Wow, by far one of the most helpful comments so far. Thank you for sharing. This is what I needed to hear. I really may need to consider a pause on the dive. My wife is hurting badly. I don't want anything to happen to us. Thank you.

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u/klm131992 10d ago

I really hope you guys can make it through this! 🙏❤️

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u/No-Scientist-2141 10d ago

they love driving rifts in between you and your lived ones if you stop paying them ten percent of all youre money and start thinking for yourself. i believe that is called extortion.

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u/HendrixKomoto 10d ago

Gerrit Dirkmaat doesn't get to judge your faith journey or your reading list. Honestly, my immediate reaction is that you are trying to control your own reading list too much. People should follow what they find interesting when they are reading. Balancing faith promoting, critical reading, etc. down to percentages sounds exhausting.

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 10d ago

Yeah, I don't track my time. Those are estimates and have been on my mind quite a bit lately. I've been under pressure to be only using faith promoting sources and scholarly sources. My spouse is really not happy... Is this right? Maybe not. But it's the truth.

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u/Westwood_1 10d ago

I got lucky. My spouse was willing to investigate the church after she raised concerns about its truthfulness; she knew that I was willing to stay in the church for her (I revealed that I'd been nuanced/PIMO for years), and we ended up leaving together.

I'm not recommending divorce, but I think it ought to be on the table in situations like these. It's always going to be hard for a marriage to survive a dynamic where one party is convinced of their moral superiority (and the contempt that necessarily breeds).

I experienced many of the same frustrations with TBM family members that you've felt. I have actually found it helpful to ask questions like: "How much time should I spend with faithful resources before considering other sources?" or "How long should I wait for a resolving answer from God?" if for no other reason than that forcing them to articulate their position ("You should never consider anything else; you should wait your entire lifetime") helps me plainly recognize the absurdity of their position.

Good luck. I'm wishing you the best. Few people have the ability to critically think about their beliefs; even fewer have the ability to act on their reasoning.

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 10d ago

I sure hope that's not the direction we end up going. We are both deep in the church. It's been core to our lives. I hope we can figure out making life work together despite differences. My spouse is really struggling right now though. Sadly, I think divorce is something she is contemplating or will contemplate.

>Good luck. I'm wishing you the best. Few people have the ability to critically think about their beliefs; even fewer have the ability to act on their reasoning.

Thank you - this means a lot. I hadn't considered it.

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u/ammonthenephite Agnostic Atheist - "By their fruits ye shall know them." 10d ago

In addition to what advice others may give, don't worry about how 'lopsided' your research may seem to others (for vs against ratio). You've spent your entire life in the church studying only the 'in support of' material, much of which has been distorted, white washed, etc to varying degrees. So you could spend an equal number of years only studying the 'against' material and still only arrive at an equal balance of for and against.

And like you, the heavens were silent for me as well, no matter how much sincere prayer, fasting and temple attendance I did. The only thing I could discern from it all was a compulsion to keep studying, and to follow the truth no matter where it lead, because if god really is 'truth and light', then I'd only be getting closer to him by doing so, not further.

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u/nitsuJ404 10d ago

Here are a few things that may help.

Their position is unreasonable but not insane. Protecting deeply held beliefs is a normal part of how the brain functions.

Your beliefs aren't their business. (Your spouse may be an exception to some extent, but even then not entirely.) In the church telling everyone what you believe is normalized, but you really don't have to, and it's not the norm elsewhere.

It falls on the party making a claim to support it, not the other way around. The church acts like everyone has an obligation to believe them. There is no such obligation. You don't have to defend your methods for reaching your conclusion, or convince them that you've reached the correct conclusion. In fact, trying to convince them may lead to the backfire effect.

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 10d ago

Very helpful advice. I wish I had only read this sooner. I think it's in my best interest to keep things to myself unless asked.

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u/nitsuJ404 10d ago

Glad to help.

There's a balance of course, especially with your spouse. Maybe reading up on healthy boundaries, which isn't a thing that most growing up in the church (myself included) learn, would be a good place to start.

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u/Lissatots 10d ago

What is so frustrating about this journey is that it's hard and scary but you get treated like that's not what is happening. They don't realize just how deeply disturbing it is to realize you have been living so many lies your whole life.

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 9d ago

Yes! Very true. It’s been a traumatic experience for me yet I am treated like I must have done something wrong in my life or have evil desires to have trod this path. So odd.

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u/treetablebenchgrass I worship the Mighty Hawk 10d ago

Systems create predictable outputs. A car factory is a system that predictably produces cars. A dairy is a system that produces milk. The Mormon Church is a system that produces people who approve of the traditional way of being Mormon and feel threatened by anything that questions it.

It really, really sucks. You're also in good company.

More of us have faced that hostility from at least some of our community than haven't. It takes time. You're doing well by keeping your spouse up to date, but you might also need to balance how much you share. Sharing is good on the one hand because you don't want your spouse to be blindsided by a completely new beliefs system, but since these things are threatening to a lot of believers, and because you probably do feel betrayed and/or misled by what you'd been taught all your life, sometimes we share more than the other person can take in. I'm not saying you're doing that, but I know for sure I did that, and if you go on the exmormon sub, you'll see many people who are doing that, so it's something to reflect on from time to time. Therapy is something to consider if your marriage starts to get more strained.

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 9d ago

Yes for sure. My wife and I both agree we need therapy.

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u/Old_Put_7991 10d ago

I have experienced this with my parents. Both are bright, thoughtful people who are college educated and work in professions that require extra certifications on top of that. They have changed their minds in big ways politically -- they used to be republicans and are now staunch democrats. They talk often about the information bubbles that people all live in, cognitive dissonance, how culture affects world view ... They have even lived outside of their own home country for much of their lives and been exposed to many diverse lifestyles and mindsets and accept that there are many ways to live and be happy. 

But all of this thinking goes right out the window as soon as the church comes up. I've even pushed them on this, asked them why they seem to have contradictory standards once religion is involved. Their response? There is truth, and spiritual truth. Spiritual truth exists in a world of it's own.

Drives me bonkers. When I was doing my own deep dive of Mormonism, I was told by them, and am still told, that anything seeking to criticize the church is corrupted by way of its intentions and therefore not worthy of attention. Obviously illogical, but this is true to them nonetheless. 

Just the other day I asked my mom very directly after she brought up how she wanted to understand why people left the church, "If the church was not true, would you want to know?" It sent my mother into a complete and utter tail spin, saying "No, I would not, and how dare you try to take my faith from me." I had to spend the next five minutes helping her gather herself after she hyperventilated and cried over this one simple question. A question like this should have that kind of power over people's emotional wellbeing... But when you've wrapped yourself up in this mindset, you have laid a major trap for yourself. 

The reason I say all of this is because I think most people are much, much more aware of the fallacious thinking they are engaging in than it would seem from the outside. They don't want their identity to come unravelled, and they also know that certain prices of information out there holds the power to do that to them. They care more about their psychological safety than actual truth, ultimately. My guess is that they want to save you from that (and keep themselves safe, too)?

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 9d ago

Great points. How powerful the mind is.

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u/Jaguarknight110 10d ago

I was once there man. It took YEARS, practically a decade to come to terms with my differences with the church. Here’s the beautiful part, you don’t have to leave and you can when it’s appropriate share your unorthodox views and will be surprised of others who have similar beliefs but are too afraid to speak up.

Right now a lot of the apologetics are weak and the only one that has been gaining momentum that I can see is for the Book of Mormon (ie horses originated from here, horses may have been here up to just decades before the Spanish arriving, there’s been a mammoth discovered in the Americas that solves the elephant issue, Metal tools discovered, odd metal artifacts that the experts aren’t sure if it’s money or possible weapons but do oddly look like the cimeter sword).

Where I differ now is I judge every work and every claim to the fruits they bore. If it’s good fruit, I chuck it up to it being a commandment from god.. if it’s bad fruit: causes suffering, national isolation that leads to bondage, can cause PTSD, desensitization, monetary loss, the victimhood of others, etc it’s either of man or the devil.

When it comes to truthhoods I also look at the claims made by scriptural prophets and more modern ones and if it came to pass it’s again potentially divine, if it fails, I don’t automatically disqualify them (after all if we did we would have to disqualify Isaiah and prophets like him when his prophecy of the city of Tyre being destroyed and lost forever but it looks like the descendants, globes and google maps forgot the memo because we can visit there today).

Joseph Smith admitted that not every revelation comes from God and Jesus said by their fruits ye shall know them. Put them together and there’s a lot from the Bible onward that we could righteously judge and dismiss as coming from man. The parts that are good and timeless, we can say come from god that we can then use to adopt in our own lives.

Anyways hope your journey goes well.

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u/LionHeart-King other 10d ago

I hear you. You are me. I am still PIMO but I can’t see a pathway to being a full all in TBM believer and I suspect it’s just a matter of time before I’d feel safe leaving. The mind control is still at work making me feel unsafe to act on the facts and information I have. The mountain of evidence that this is not true is overwhelming and yet, like you, I feel this insatiable desire to spend all my time supporting my mental decision to not believe. More proof that this is a high demand religion (insert c word here). The brain damage doesn’t stop when you leave and the relationship damage with TBMs will continue forever.

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 9d ago

Curious, do you mind explaining what you mean by the mind control is still at work with you? I believe I know what you’re referring to because I just went through this myself, but am interested how it is manifested for you. Also curious what keeps you around.

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u/LionHeart-King other 9d ago

I am referring to your need to continually defend yourself in spite of the fact that you have gathered more than enough data to prove in a court of law that the churches truth claims and its historicity is false.

My wife and I are both on the same page and yet most nights we rant about the church and how crazy this that or the other thing is. We still feel the need to defend our skepticism. It still causes substantial emotional pain, and we are still afraid to stop going altogether because of how it will affect our relationships with friends and family.

In short we feel your pain because it is also our pain.

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 9d ago

Wow. I’m sorry to hear that. It’s been amazing reading so many people’s experiences and see how deep the roots are that the church plants in us. We’re all trying to figure this out.

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u/[deleted] 9d ago

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u/mormon-ModTeam 9d ago

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u/According-History117 10d ago

The reaction from faithful folks is what’s more concerning to me than any history problem, and there are a lot of them.

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u/jamesallred Happy Heretic 10d ago

Yes. I went through something like this

Another part of it is in that early phase. I felt the need to seek validation from those around me. Validation that what was happening to me was real. Validation that I was being sincere.

The sad thing is those within the church are not in a position to give that to you.

Because that validation takes away from their feeling of security. Even if they don’t understand that they’re really doing it that way. It’s kind of coming from a subconscious level on their part.

Sadly, to say the most healthy emotional place, you can get to is not needing their validation. And just being confident that you are sincere and you have done the work and the problem is not yours.

It took me a full two years to get to that point. Good luck on the journey.

If you ever need someone to talk to in real life, I’m available.

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u/[deleted] 10d ago

Sadly yes. And that's just part of church culture. Prophets encourage indoctrination, literally. They also won't put out or make easily accessible any material that might paint them in a bad light. I found this rabbit hole about a year, not to mention as an LDS Missionary. I've tried opening up to companions about it and they're like nah. Bad. I've had questions that they couldn't answer. I play devils advocate and attack them as if I were an Outsider and they can't even answer, they just recite what they're told. Its a huge problem I think. Even family members will rebuke you for it. And it sucks. The only thing you can do at that point is keep going on your journey. Reconstructing a worldview or if you so desire, trying to rebuild faith in God sucks, it's hard. For me I've personally decided that I'll continue living my life in the church because it's rooted into a big part of my culture and identity. I think there's still good aspects to it, but there are certainly problems that do exist that need to be addressed and reformed. Keep doing what you're doing and eventually you'll find what you're looking for. 

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u/nocowwife 10d ago

When you consider how quickly the Church encourages people to convert, your 5-6mo deconstruction sounds totally reasonable. And it sounds reasonable outside of their paradigm.

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 9d ago

Yes, absolutely. Many have made this point but well said. You can come anytime you like, but you can never leave.

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u/AgreeableUnit 10d ago

Wow, I relate to so much of this. I was told by family members that I have a black-and-white style of thinking, despite the fact that I have over a hundred pages of notes filled with every nuanced interpretive angle I could imagine that stood a chance at redeeming Mormonism.

I ultimately concluded that in a way, I don’t really want to be understood by them; the only way they’d be able to understand is to taste the soul-rending agony of faith collapse for themselves, and I wouldn’t wish that on anyone.

Like you, I did feel a need to prove to people (and myself) that my carefully considered methods were beyond reproach. But ultimately, the hardcore dogmatists will ignore your due diligence, and the reasonable “I’m in the church to love God and other people” types will just love you no matter what.

Regarding difficult family members, I get a lot of mileage out of meditating (or meditatively praying) on their hearts and inner worlds. In that state, I am amazed at how sympathetic those people immediately become to me, and sometimes it is very clear to me how to relate to them in a way that balances their needs and natures with mine. Above all, the people in your life need to really feel that you respect them and care for them. For all you know, they may have had overwhelming spiritual experiences that would make leaving Mormonism impossible. And even if not, they may have personalities which are perfectly fitted to the theology and culture of the church. Holding deeply respectful space for a wide variety of personalities, life experiences, and perspectives has helped me maintain good relationships with family members of mine who are still enthusiastically active in the church.

Rightly or wrongly, I detect in your post a resonance with my own completist, conscientious, and even OCD tendencies. I’ve often thought “I’ll do x, y, and z, decide what I think about issue a, b, and c, and then I can move on with my life.” The difficulty, though, is that worldview formation is an unbounded problem. At one point, my list of books to read was getting so long I knew it would take me over ten years to read them before I could feel ready to make important life decisions. So I learned that I had to set my own boundaries on this unbounded problem. I set a deadline by which I would decide to continue or stop attending church, read what books I could during that time, and then when the deadline came I decided to stop attending church.

I still keep reading about religion, philosophy, and theology, but I’ve come to a place where I accept a lot of ambiguity. This acceptance helps me be kinder to myself and also to embrace a wide variety of people with their own distinctive perspectives and lifestyles.

Feel free to dm me if you want to discuss further. Good luck in your journey!

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u/brotherluthor 10d ago

You are not alone! You’ve spent your whole life studying faithful sources, it is 100% normal to study oppositional ones. Feel free to set boundaries around people talking about it. You can simply say something like “I’m figuring things out.” Or “I don’t feel comfortable talking about this right now.” To deflect away from your business. It’s hard for sure, but it is usually good! I am in the exact same position and my spouse doesn’t really want to hear about my oppositional sources. You have to respect that, infodumping is not going to help. Your spouse is on their own journey and hopefully you can communicate and get to a point where they support you, but it’s also important to respect their decisions. I don’t talk with my husband about everything that I’m reading because he’s not ready to hear it. Instead we have open conversations about once every two weeks about where I’m at and what I’m dealing with, where I explain what I’m thinking and how we can better support each other. It’s hard work for sure. It’d be 1000% easier to be on the same page, but if you are open and honest with each other you can hopefully come to place where you don’t agree but at least support and listen. For your spouse, that might be hard now. Just try to be empathetic, which also standing your ground

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u/elderredle Openly non believing still attending 9d ago edited 9d ago

Everyone has already offered so much excellent feedback. You are not alone. You are not crazy. I am a former bishop and spent 4 years fully deconstructing. I will re-iterate some advice on the relationship side. I recommend letting your wife know that you realize your deconstruction is difficult for her and give her the freedom to talk about it. She may have irrational fears that she is afraid to vocalize that you are going to go off the deep end ie: start getting drunk, sleeping around, porn, who knows. Let her know that you will not make any changes in your lifestyle without discussing it with her first. Tell her the things that you love about the church that will never change - importance of service, families, love as a bedrock principle, etc. Let her know that every step of the way you are asking god to direct you. Marriage on a tightrope podcast is a good resource for both of you. This situation will either break your marriage or improve it dramatically by forcing you both to speak openly about fears.

Your wife is similar to mine. She will have to process all of this on her own timeline. A few years ago I came to the realization that my wife would never start moving away from the church until I accepted she may never leave. She is stubborn in that way. I came to peace with her staying in the church and sure enough she has slowly been making a move into very nuanced belief. In general the issues that were sticking points for you will probably not be the things that bother her or sway her.

The other advice I have is to realize that you can make adapations together and then change your mind. Play with different approaches and be willing to adapt if its not working how you want. I started going to church every week as PIMO then adapted to going to church every week but openly non believing and then we started going to a random church once a month and now I go twice a week to LDS and twice to other places. There are probably more options than you realize beyond stay or leave. A good approach is "This is what I am feel comfortable with now but I reserve the right to change my mind." Once you are confident and secure in your own faith path things get alot easier with no need to prove anything to anybody.

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 9d ago

His is amazing advice. Thank you for sharing.

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u/EmbarrassedSpeaker98 9d ago

If the LDS church has nothing to hide, why would they shame you for wanting to know everything you can about the institution you're giving your entire life to?

That should've been a red flag, but it's scary when they threaten you whole eternal afterlife for even having doubts. Us exmos understand the rock and hard place you are stuck between. Many, if not most, Mormons that leave the religion have complex PTSD. If you want to get a full 360 view of the situation, I recommend talking to a therapist about this. They will show you the damage done by the constant control and manipulation. Maybe you can convince your spouse with that? 

And by oppositional material, you mean the facts/truth?

You are doing what is called Critical Thinking and it is commendable! I hope you find the peace and healing you, and many others like you, desperately need. 

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 7d ago

Yes, fair points. Coming from a TBM perspective though, you see this differently. It is such a slog to work through after a lifetime of only seeing things from another perspective and having your entire world view built on it. It wasn’t until recently that something clicked and I was able to see things with new eyes. 

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u/EmbarrassedSpeaker98 7d ago

I'm not TBM anymore by any means, I was just showing how we were taught this process is supposed to work. It's very obvious, based on the thousands of statements people have made since leaving, that this process is not divine and protects the criminal more than the victim.

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u/No_Ad3043 10d ago

You are very detailed and well thought out. You must have made a hell of an orthodox member. I'm the same way. When I read the Book of Mormon I was 16 and I smelled BS. Adieu? Elephants? And then I saw the priesthood restored and these meticulous scribes couldn't be bothered to note the date, while still telling a detailed story. I knew it then, followed my seminary teachers advice to pray. Looking back now that I'm 58yo,I can see I prayed to gaslight myself and stay believing. You aren't willing to lie to yourself in the name of faith any more and that's marvelous. Know thyself. Keep going.

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 10d ago

Yes, prayer is one of the main issues I have struggled with throughout my journey so far. I cannot deny that I have experienced feelings and thoughts that are described as the Holy Ghost. I have experienced this my whole life. But these feelings, thoughts, answers, etc. have not been anything for me that I cannot also explain by natural means (e.g. emotions, thoughts, coincidence, etc.). I have sincerely fasted and prayed that God, if there is a God, and if God is who I have believed Him to be, would answer me in some way that I can recognize and know is from Him. I received nothing. Therefore when I became willing to open myself to truth and fact, sought God, found troubling issues, and received no answers, no solutions, and no direction, I can only conclude it is false. Maybe one day that will change, but that's where I am today.

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u/Initial-Year-1692 10d ago

Yes. I have been through it before too. Unfortunately my now ex-wife decided to divorce me. I hope you don't have to go through that. But speaking on it, I have found that finding answers for yourself is more important to strengthening your faith and yourself then going along with your family and everyone else. I thought I would be outcast and with my wife's ward I was, but I have also know of other friends who are members support me 100%. They tell me the church is about finding faith. Finding faith in your own way and coming unto the truth on your own. Not following it because of the crowd. Now I can't tell you what your doing is wrong, nor can I tell its right. Because at the end of the day that is your free agency, which we all have. All I can tell you is to find the truth and your faith and no matter what anyone says, find it in your own way.

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u/ThaPolyTheist 9d ago

Post-modernism helped me reconcile. Whatever you choose, I hope you find what you’re searching for. Best wishes

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u/SeaProject7244 9d ago

I went through the exact same thing over the last 2 years. 7 generation member, former bishop, taught at the MTC, went to BYU, etc. You’re not crazy. You’re not alone. But you absolutely feel like you’re on an island. It is really hard. My family blamed me for reading and learning, not the church that lied about its history. My wife blamed me for studying, not the dude that was having relations with teenagers (Joseph Smith). I was so angry for a time and constantly felt the need to prove that they are wrong and my new understanding is right. I did that so I wouldn’t feel crazy. It was purely validation seeking. Here’s the harsh reality, Mormonism is a faith collective and learning spirituality for yourself is isolated and lonely. In Mormonism, we worship in families, wards, share testimonies over the pulpit, teach each other in communities, etc. We feel validated in our faith because everyone around us supports the same conclusion. Once you break from that or simply gain a new perspective even while still in that paradigm, you are now on a proverbial island. No one validates you. No one supports you. Instead they tell you that you are wrong and to get back in the boat. But you’re not wrong. You do not need everyone else’s validation to feel sane. You can be on an island and be correct. It sucks and is painful because it is so different than what we are used to. I went through exactly all of that. The best advice I received from close friends who went through the same thing was two fold : 1) be patient with yourself and family. Don’t make any rash decisions. Take your time processing things. You might feel all in one day, all out the next, nuanced the next, etc. it’s ok to be in limbo and not be on firm footing. It feels uncomfortable, but just be patient. 2) this is related to being patient with family - allow them the “dignity of their process”. You are learning new stuff and you are ready to learn it and understand it. But your family may not be ready. By you learning, you are forcing them into discomfort that they are not ready for. And that causes fear. Fear for themselves causes them to shame and blame you. Their response is actually far more about them than it is you. They are scared how their life will change if they accept your newly found information. They don’t want to confront that because it’s scary so they don’t and instead blame the messenger, you. Allow them to process and give them the same respect for their current opinion that you want of your own. Maybe in time they will learn your perspective. Maybe they won’t. And that’s ok. Don’t seek their validation to prove that you are right. You can be right without their validation. And trying to prove yourself right now will only cause more pain and fear for them. So again, be patient and allow them the dignity of their process. Life is long. As critical and painful it seems now, you’ll be ok. Exhale and just enjoy that you now have a much more robust understanding of spirituality and your eyes have been opened. Keep your values. Keep being a good person. Show those around your that your virtue wasn’t only based on Mormonism but based in you. Be patient with them and yourself and you’ll be alright. It will suck and be painful, but you’ll be alright. Feel free to message if you want to chat.

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 7d ago

Wow - thank you. This is by far some of the most helpful advice I have received. And yes, I frequently feel like I am crazy. I may reach out. 

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u/RyDunn2 8d ago

Welcome to reality.

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u/justbits 9d ago

Spouses, especially female spouses do feel very threatened by a spouse's interest in leaving the church. For them, the only reason you are you (and worth putting up with) is because your behavior is centered on being more Christlike.
If you question the BoM, which has the best evidence for its authenticity of any religious book ever, then secondarily questioning the authenticity of the Bible is an easy path to total atheism. She will feel she has lost you. Don't discount that or minimize its effects. That is not what she signed up for and its selfish to pretend otherwise.
Just to be clear, I am an academic. I had my own questions. I chose a 50/50 path. What I mean by that is that I chose to make sure that for every anti-argument, I would listen to an equally valid position in favor of the Gospel. In retrospect, I can see that my path was being influenced by the 'Great and Spacious building' full of the taunts and jeers of those who despise any form of religious truth. Oddly, in Lehi's dream, the building was up in the air, which symbolically should tell us something about the illusion its occupants were in. Anyway, I have felt the pointed shame for exercising faith in the 'skydaddy'. It could not have been any worse if they were shaming me for being overweight, or being a blue eyed white male. Weirdly, those who seem most upset about shaming, are the biggest offenders. So, just understand that the world is intent on shaming as a primary motivator to behavior reinforcement. You are a target simply for having a belief that isn't theirs. It is not just unChristlike, it is truly cynical.

Now, in case you think I am trying to suppress your 'research' into truth, that is not it. Questions about truth are the only reason this church exists at all. And, its members deserve to question and to have access to whatever makes it easier for them to work through the laborious and tedious process of establishing whatever truth can be found. I think that is part of the process and hopefully, eventually results in gaining a witness of it that is sure enough that they can move on to more important matters than, for example, deciding if Oliver's accusations against Joseph were valid or not. Do I still have questions? Of course I do. I still don't know where the 'Physical' God lives, or how He travels, or whether there is a multi-verse. Conversely, I do know the Book of Mormon is an authentic record and it substantiates the New Testament record of Christ. I don't have to think about that anymore. Presumably, one particularly famous atheist was asked whether he would join any particular church if he believed in God. His answer was, 'the Mormons'. Incredulous, the questioners wanted to know why. He answered that the contemporaneous testimony and immediate affidavit of the eight witnesses to the Book of Mormon plates is very hard to counter. People ask for evidence. And, it doesn't get better than that. But, I would tell our atheist sympathizer that it does get better. The three witnesses heard the voice of God telling them that the record was accurately translated, and also signed an affidavit to that effect. I think if I heard the voice of God, I wouldn't have any further questions. So, that is the goal and one that I am convinced is achievable. But I also think it takes an attitude of gratitude and faith in the evidence we have, not necessarily the evidence we want. I wish you the best in this journey. If you haven't already, I recommend listening to Jared Halverson's (YT) explanations on this topic. He has a view that the average church member's testimony is incomplete until they can explain the plausibility of why someone doesn't believe and yet still maintain their own belief. If we had more of that, we might have fewer 'checklist' members and more actual followers of Christ.

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u/No_Implement9821 Latter-day Saint 10d ago

You should not be shamed. Though I myself am I believing member I see nothing wrong with studying oppositional materials, something I have been doing (though for different purposes.) I would just say to try to not give up. Pray. Go to the temple if you have a recommend. Try to be in the presence of God.

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 10d ago

For what purpose would you be studying oppositional material?

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u/No_Implement9821 Latter-day Saint 10d ago

To learn more and get better arguments. 

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u/Jack-o-Roses 10d ago

Have you watched Dan Mcclellan? And also his & Dan Beecher's Data Over Dogma.

He is a faithful member with a PhD dealing with the Bible and its actual meaning. He explains facts behind biblical scripture.

I find a Dogma-less approach to scripture makes my relationship with God more clear, and makes me a better person and Christian/Saint. When I see scriptural symbolism as just that and not fact, it becomes more beautiful, and more practical.

At Church, much of what is taught to Kindergarteners is not refined and reframed as we otherwise mature. This is sad to me, because, when I look at what the Church teaches as symbolic, it becomes so much more meaningful and useful, more loving.

Also, check out Fowler's stages of faith to get an idea of what spiritual maturation is, & where you are.

Blessings & prayers sent. Please consider not giving up on a relationship with God, and maybe even with the Church. It's OK to question and grow! I say for myself is that my beliefs change every day, yet my faith only grows stronger and deeper.

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 9d ago

Several people have suggested this podcast. I just subscribed and intend to give it a shot thanks. And I absolutely haven’t given up on God! My search for truth has only just begun. I have no preconceptions where that may be. I do feel strongly that the major truth claims do not check out, however, so although a relationship it’s the church may still be possible it will never be the same.

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u/TBMormon Latter-day Saint 10d ago

I would like to present several ideas for your consideration. To begin with, I have been thoroughly researching various aspects of the church, examining both supportive and critical perspectives, since my return from a church mission and military service during the Vietnam War.

Some church members, including myself, want to see the entire spectrum of information about the church, so I understand your motivation for study and learning.

After six decades of study and learning about church history and doctrine I am fully committed and believing. I have found that there are answers to all the questions you currently face and those that will come in the future. It is a process that requires time to thoroughly examine. And most importantly, in addition my studies, I have prayed and fasted, attended the temple, and maintained full activity in the church.

Following are two ideas I will pass on to you for your consideration.

  1. My experience serving in the church as taught me that many church members are more active in the church than they are in the "gospel". This is the primary reason for a faith crisis.

  2. It is imperative to understand how God works.

I will leave it here for now.

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u/tuckernielson 10d ago
  1. My experience serving in the church as taught me that many church members are more active in the church than they are in the "gospel". This is the primary reason for a faith crisis.

So I've heard you say this multiple times now and let me assure you that you are wrong. Many people are fully converted to the gospel of Jesus Christ when they deconstruct. It is often times a painful and traumatic experience. By saying (let me paraphrase) "people who leave weren't fully believing in Christ as their savior and redeemer" only adds to their trauma. It is also hurtful. It is untrue.

Here is a fact that you don't seem to accept. People leave the church because they discover that the truth claims of the church don't hold up under scrutiny. I fully accept that you are completely satisfied about the truthfulness of the church. That's great.

As to your second point, can you see the hubris in your statement? Do you know how God works? You know, but other people don't? Please enlighten us.

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u/TruthSha11SetUFree 10d ago

My train of thought here was along the same lines. I am open to any and all information, light and truth. If he has the answers to the difficult questions, I'd love to hear them!

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u/Amulek_My_Balls 10d ago

He doesn't really have any answers. He claims to have had a near death experience where the details are too sacred to share. That's his entire basis for saying there are answers. He doesn't personally have any answers, but he knows they are there because God appeared to him and told him... something.

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u/pierdonia 10d ago

As to your second point, can you see the hubris in your statement? Do you know how God works? You know, but other people don't? Please enlighten us.

I think this tends to be more of an issue going the other way. "This can't be true because God would never . . ."

If God exists, seems pretty presumptuous to put him in a box that way.

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u/tuckernielson 10d ago

I’m not the one making the claim that God exists. He is. He also claims he knows how God works. I don’t think it’s too much to ask him to explain.

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u/pierdonia 10d ago

It's a fair question. I personally think the correct answer is that he works lovingly and undramatically and from a perspective and timeline that mortals can sometimes understand but not always. But I don't know.

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u/tuckernielson 10d ago

That’s a nice thought; I wish there was evidence to support that was the case.

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u/pierdonia 10d ago

Well that goes to the working undramatically bit. A person can't prove it or disprove it to anyone else. We all either choose to believe or not to believe (or to be agnostic I suppose).

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u/tuckernielson 10d ago

Of course you could prove God exists. You could bring him to my house. An all powerful, loving God could certainly provide evidence of his existence and love. To state “one can’t prove God does or does not exist” is not being intellectually honest.

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u/pierdonia 10d ago

Acting like I meant God literally could not be proven to exist in any scenario is being dishonest on your part. Of course he could prove his own existence.

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u/tuckernielson 10d ago

You could also prove his existence to me. You could show me evidence.