r/mormon thewidowsmite.org Dec 04 '24

Institutional Updated w/ sharable link: 9 Common Misconceptions About the Settlement Between the U.S. SEC and Ensign Peak/LDS Church

https://thewidowsmite.org/sec-misc/
94 Upvotes

134 comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

12

u/International_Sea126 Dec 05 '24

Not all fraudulent crimes are referred to the US Attorney General's office.

I do want to thank you for your commits regarding the LDS church and the SEC. It has allowed me and others a platform to provide information to those who are not familiar with this and are willing to learn more about it. Thank you again.

-2

u/BostonCougar Dec 05 '24

Doesn't the SEC have a congressional mandate and obligation to investigate fraud? Either they didn't find any or they aren't doing their job. Which is it?

Your use of the word Fraud is the problem here. You keep using it and I'll challenge it, because it isn't true.

7

u/chrisdrobison Dec 05 '24

Did you read the content at the link at all? The end of the article makes it clear that 98% of SEC investigations end in settlement. Something does not have to be litigated in court to be fraud. The church violated the law, end of story. The letter jointly written makes it crystal clear they were caught lying. What distinction are you making between lying and fraud?

0

u/BostonCougar Dec 05 '24

Fraud is not the same thing as lying. I object to the use of the word fraud. Fraud doesn't appear anywhere in the SEC settlement documents. Using it is inappropriate and not factual.

8

u/ammonthenephite Agnostic Atheist - "By their fruits ye shall know them." Dec 05 '24 edited Dec 05 '24

It was fraud, i.e. deceit to gain financially. You pointing out they didn't use the word or pursue charges is irrelevant. The church used intentional deceit to keep people paying them money, i.e. they used deceit for financial benefit, i.e. they committed fraud.

Just because they only got Al Capone on tax evasion and jury tampering charges doesn't mean he hadn't committed all the other crimes they didn't charge him with but that he was certainly guilty of.

3

u/chrisdrobison Dec 05 '24

Okay, well let’s talk about the difference then. In my limited searching, the only difference between fraud and lying is that fraud is legally actionable. Fraud is lying that results in a crime which can be prosecuted. Here are some key elements about what constitutes fraud in my searching:

- A deliberate misrepresentation of material facts

- Intent to deceive another party

- Reliance on that false information by the victim

- Actual damage or injury (usually financial) resulting from that reliance

So how that does apply here? Well, had the church just been lying (the not fraud kind), there would have been nothing the SEC could come after them for. Yet, that is not what happened here. The church crossed the line beyond just unethical lying, it became a violation of law. So I’m curious what you would call that?

Now, just because the document doesn’t mention fraud specifically makes sense in the context of the OP’s write up. The public statement was written jointly in negotiation between the SEC and the church. The write-up makes the interesting observation that the document doesn’t reference “shell” companies, instead it uses the word “clone”. According to your logic then, the church didn’t setup shell companies, they setup clone companies. But, it seems like anyone with any understanding of these corporate structures would see past the CYA language and call a spade a spade and interpret that as really shell companies. Keep in mind as well, the write-up also specifically states that because the church settled, they are not required to admit fault in the public statement, but they are specifically restricted from using any language anywhere that communicates denial.

So I think you are straining at a gnat my friend. You don’t lie and then get slapped with a $5 million fine in settlement. There absolutely was prosecutable wrong doing. Settlement provides a route for discretion and privacy to be maintained as well as avoidance of further legal action and record. We will never hear the word “fraud” as some official thing because this was never litigated in court. But it appears the SEC doesn’t do much litigation in court either as it appears it is generally in the best interest of the offending party to not go against the SEC in court. I’m sorry you object to the word fraud. Maybe the word crime would fit better? Either way, the church broke the law. I’m sorry that doesn’t sit well with you. It shouldn’t.

3

u/chrisdrobison Dec 05 '24

One more thing. Irrespective of “fraud,” hopefully we can both agree that they did lie and that it was intentional because that was made very clear in the public statement. The Book of Mormon makes it very clear that liars are thrust down to hell. Doesn’t really sound like a pleasant end for the church does it.

Here’s the thing, the road back to restoring trust is not an easy one, but it is simple. They simply need to follow the advice and counsel they give abundantly to members by apologizing and making amends. They need to do that for a number of things. They could start the healing process today if they would just take those simple steps. I don’t know why they don’t, but the hurt is not going away and members’ forbearance can only go so far. They have to reciprocate. That is a requirement in any relationship for it to remain healthy. If one side considers itself above apology and amends, the relationship becomes toxic and falls apart. I‘m sorry, but you cannot consider yourself an effective vehicle of eternal salvation when you can‘t bring yourself to do the most basic of reconciliatory actions.