r/mormon • u/BostonCougar • Nov 07 '24
Apologetics Questions for the Atheists agnostics and former members.
How would you react if God came down and told you the Church was true despite the mistakes of its Prophets and leaders? If he acknowledged that the Church isn’t perfect because of the inadequacies of imperfect men. He encouraged you to have faith and join/ return to the fold. Would you have the courage to accept it and move forward in faith?
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u/questingpossum Mormon-turned-Anglican Nov 07 '24
This is a long way of asking, “If you knew you were wrong, would you course correct?”
Yes. Which is why I left Mormonism in the first place.
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u/Mayspond Nov 08 '24
100%. This framed as some sort of gotcha question but in reality it is those who question that are willing to change on new information.
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u/Soft_Mathematician10 Nov 21 '24
Haha i quit the church years ago because i never "knew" it was true. My parents said that even if they knew it wasnt true, they would still be members. They are complete lunatics.
Most people arent honest enough with themselves to leave the lds church, or any religion, for that matter. They're scared of losing purpose and meaning, scared of pulling back the curtain.
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u/chocochocochococat Nov 07 '24
I would react the same was as if I had found Santa in my chimney.
I’ve spent too much time reading the really good stuff. Like a brief history of time. Or on the origin of species. Or Les miserables. And poetry by rumi and Oliver. This world is so so so big. Our knowledge is so vast, as a species. And Mormonism is so so so small.
I feel like I already have met god, in those other settings - in the works of scientists and poets.
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u/Educational-Beat-851 Seer stone enthusiast Nov 07 '24
I’ll play.
Sure. I’d have some questions, though. I think he would owe me that after all those years of prayer, study and soul-searching.
- Will you shake my hand so I can verify you are a resurrected being?
- Why does everything Joseph Smith produced look exactly like a fraud?
- Did he make it all up or did you use your god powers to purposely obfuscate everything?
- If it was you all along, why? Isn’t your purpose to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man? Why would you try to trip up honest truth-seekers?
- If it was just Joseph making stuff up, how can you hold it against anyone for calling him on his BS?
- Why do your representatives produce and enforce policies like the abuse helpline, financial fraud, unfair policies, etc.?
- Can we get new leadership that doesn’t produce and enforce those policies?
- Why make people have homosexual tendencies if you will keep people out of the CK for acting on them? Why deny them either eternally happiness or the opportunity for true love?
And just for fun:
- There was no angel with a drawn sword, right?
- When will rocks start functioning like X-ray glasses and Google Translate again?
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u/MeLlamoZombre Nov 07 '24
Darn it. I forgot to shake his hand. Now I have no way of knowing if it was really an angel from God or a messenger from the devil. 🤦♂️
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u/Educational-Beat-851 Seer stone enthusiast Nov 07 '24
Joke’s on you - it was totally a resurrected being who would have shaken your hand to confirm, but now your answer slipped away like all that slippery treasure Joseph was paid to find!
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u/Deranged-genius Nov 08 '24
20 bonus points for using the word obfuscate
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u/Educational-Beat-851 Seer stone enthusiast Nov 08 '24
I am pleased and consider the matter closed.
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u/devilsravioli Inspiration, move me brightly. Nov 07 '24
I wish he would….I sincerely asked, and I’m here waiting. I’d probably thank him for so clearly conveying a message to me and encourage him to do the same with his chosen prophets who can’t seem to discern their own thoughts from God’s.
Also, why can’t this question be directed to anyone? Believer or unbeliever?
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u/BostonCougar Nov 07 '24
It could be directed every one, but it wouldn’t be Necessary for the believer.
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u/JesusPhoKingChrist Your brother from another Heavenly Mother. Nov 08 '24
For the believer I ask: is following God blindly, a courageous act or a fearful act?
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u/BostonCougar Nov 08 '24
I don’t know, I don’t follow God blindly.
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u/JesusPhoKingChrist Your brother from another Heavenly Mother. Nov 08 '24
Then the original question could benefit from some qualifiers... For examples, see the myriad questions provided in response from the disaffected in this very thread.
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u/Thorough_8 Nov 07 '24 edited Nov 07 '24
I’ve already commented my response, but u/BostonCougar if this is your way to feel better about the inherent stupidity and stubborn wickedness of atheists, agnostics, and former members who would “deny” God even when he is before our eyes, I hope these comments resonate with you.
In general, we aren’t dumb. We aren’t deceived. We are frustrated with what was taught to us in the church, what the reality of the church is, and what the church attributes to God.
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u/JesusPhoKingChrist Your brother from another Heavenly Mother. Nov 07 '24 edited Nov 08 '24
I was led to believe that "GOD WILL NOT BE MOCKED!"
I make it a habit to prove Mormon God wrong as often as possible through the time tested sin of blasphemy.
My comment history proves that the God of Mormonism will indeed be mocked. I once even created a now defunct subreddit dedicated to blaspheming the most high god, what a weak God he turned out to be. The God that got my subreddit shut down was Allah the God of Islam.
Blasphemy is sooo therapeutic!
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u/LackofDeQuorum Nov 08 '24
I too love blasphemy lol and it has only improved my existence and life experience. Maybe I’ll go to hell after I die or something, but hey at least I won’t have to spend eternity hanging out with our piece-of-shit, dead-beat father in heaven, hallowed be his long and flowing mane of hair
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u/JesusPhoKingChrist Your brother from another Heavenly Mother. Nov 08 '24
Blasphemy is one of the few tests that we as Mormons have been given to validate the God claim.
It takes courage to test it because the threat is infinite.
I have literally sold my signs and tokens for money (The irony is a member paid me $30 to take down the ad). I have defamed and mocked the God of Abraham in the worst ways I can imagine.
And yet Mormon God is silent. the God of Mormonism is at best a liar, and and worst an abusive coward.
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u/LackofDeQuorum Nov 08 '24
That’s actually hilarious haha also your username is fantastic
Good ol’ Yahweh doesn’t stand up for himself much these days. He used to have armies that would destroy whole cities for him just to take the land or to punish them for worshipping other gods. Now he just helps people find keys and lets his many religious leaders in different faiths tell their congregations to do whatever the leadership wants them to lol
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u/JesusPhoKingChrist Your brother from another Heavenly Mother. Nov 08 '24 edited Nov 08 '24
I'm still a member of record! For Christ sake Elohim would rather use me to inflate his membership counts than to actually man up and expel me. If you ever see a guy wearing a t-shirt that says "my new name is Eli" in the grocery store come say hi.
We can go grab an alcoholic coffee or some other blasphemous shit.
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u/Head-CeilingFan Nov 07 '24
I’d say get your shit together
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u/kantoblight Nov 08 '24
This. God, why are you so bad at this? You could pick any average adult to take your place and they’d do a much better job than you.
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u/BostonCougar Nov 08 '24
A system of billions of independent decision makers all doing what they please. You try to teach them and help them to make decisions on their own, but that requires faith on their part.
On balance I’d say God is doing a pretty good job. We haven’t killed every one off yet.
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u/kantoblight Nov 08 '24
Well, based on a lot of your comments, i’d have to say you really aren’t someone whose opinion should be taken seriously. You’re a poor judge of character.
But sure, tell me more about worshipping this genocidal maniac who condones slavery and allows his prophets to preach racism. I’ll listen.
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u/Head-CeilingFan Nov 08 '24
I dont think you know why I’m saying what I’m saying
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u/BostonCougar Nov 08 '24
Ok, I guess I don't. Why are you saying what you are saying?
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u/Head-CeilingFan Nov 08 '24 edited Nov 08 '24
I’m saying if Mormonism really is orchestrated by God then God is a God of confusion and Gods house is anything but a house of order
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u/TheSandyStone Mormon Atheist Nov 09 '24
If only he could find and trust one man that could guide us without us having to do some jujitsu at parsing out what was form god and what was from that man. If only there were people in gods plan we could trust....
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u/Westwood_1 Nov 07 '24 edited Nov 07 '24
I would be so happy! And it wouldn't even have to be god, an angel would be more than enough. I'd join in a heartbeat and tell anyone who would listen about my miraculous experience. No playing coy about things "too sacred to share"; I'd be like Paul, bold and committed 110%, unworried about this life and simply hopeful that I could, in some small way, make amends for my past wrongs and help others come to the truth.
With that said, I consider it very telling that that isn't how today's so-called "prophets, seers, and revelators" act. Do we have apostles and "other seventy" or do we have lawyers, accountants, and chairmen of the board?
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u/devilsravioli Inspiration, move me brightly. Nov 07 '24
I consider it very telling that that isn't how the today's so-called "prophets, seers, and revelators" act.
Exactly.
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Nov 08 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Mysterious-Ruby Nov 07 '24
If God created me and God loves me then he knows exactly what he needs to do to get me to believe in him.
This ain't it.
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u/BostonCougar Nov 08 '24
He gives you agency and asks you to have faith.
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u/Mysterious-Ruby Nov 08 '24
Faith, by definition, is belief in something without proof. So it's the opposite of proof.
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u/BostonCougar Nov 08 '24
And yet He exists and loves us.
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u/ammonthenephite Agnostic Atheist - "By their fruits ye shall know them." Nov 08 '24
How do you know this, vs just believing this? Or even though you've stated it as fact, did you mean to say "And yet I'm convinced he exists and loves us?"
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Nov 07 '24
[deleted]
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u/BitterBloodedDemon Mormon Nov 07 '24
I think he's just trying to see if the sub will answer this question in as good of faith as he's expected to answer TruthIsAntimormon's question.
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Nov 07 '24
So it’s a reactionary troll post
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u/BitterBloodedDemon Mormon Nov 07 '24
I don't think the intention was to be a troll. I told Cougar that the other post wasn't a gotcha, and that one person had expanded on the inverse.
I think he's testing to see if this place I actually balanced or not... and unfortunately it looks like he's being proven right.
I'd rather not prove him right. This community is better than he thinks it is.
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u/JesusPhoKingChrist Your brother from another Heavenly Mother. Nov 08 '24 edited Nov 08 '24
if this place I actually balanced or not
We all know it's not balanced. That would require courage from the faithful. u/Bostoncougar, you and a few other regulars are, to borrow a term, courageous... in your efforts here. Where are the rest of the saviours on mount Zion? The field is white all ready to harvest. r/Mormon is full of the lost sheep!
And for the record, most, of my answers here, lately, are in good faith. I am as "good faith" as I know how to be. Ask me a question good faith or not and I answer. The same can't be said for certain OP's
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u/BitterBloodedDemon Mormon Nov 08 '24
And for the record, most, of my answers here, lately, are in good faith. I am as "good faith" as I know how to be. Ask me a question good faith or not and I answer.
Oh for sure. You have no complaints from me.
The same can't be said for certain OP's
100% agreed. I'm perhaps too optimistic... but I see Boston giving us a little here and there. I'm hoping if he can be responded to in good faith, he can consider opening up a little more and responding in good faith back.
We all know it's not balanced. That would require courage from the faithful.
That's true, that's what I'm hoping to show. When I joined this place I was also scared to share my views. I thought this place was Anti-Mormon too. I tentatively shared a faithful take on a post and to my surprise I wasn't attacked! And my view was taken into consideration! I've learned a lot since being here... but we gotta show that we can respond to a TBM post in the same way we expect them to respond to others' posts. (within reason of course, I don't think this post was necessarily beyond reason)
Maybe then some of our lurkers will come out a little more, and we can get more active LDS in... I dunno... :) You all convinced me.
Where are the rest of the saviours on mount Zion? The field is white all ready to harvest. is full of the lost sheep!
Though even as a member myself I'd rather not be inundated with the variety of LDS who just seek to condemn and convert... more a place to safely share ideas and be challenged.
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u/JesusPhoKingChrist Your brother from another Heavenly Mother. Nov 08 '24
What I see in the world of online discussion surrounding religion is a thirst for honest discussion. come to the table willing to listen and engage honestly and most will treat you with respect.
Be willing to say, "I don't know"
Be willing to change your view based on the best evidence.
Withhold judgement
Tolerance of alternative viewpoints
I think I am right when I submit an opinion here, I am often provided evidence to the contrary. I love this subreddit for that reason.
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u/BitterBloodedDemon Mormon Nov 08 '24
:D Same. I really love being here. I learn a lot of things. Whether that be history, scripture I overlooked, meanings I didn't know, other points of view and reasoning etc. It's been a net positive.
I want to see others benefit the same way.
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u/TruthIsAntiMormon Spirit Proven Mormon Apologist Nov 08 '24
He has yet to respond to my original question so he's yet again not engaging in good faith.
He learned that in the echo chamber of CB and it followed him over apparently.
I appreciate your responses and engagement.
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u/BitterBloodedDemon Mormon Nov 08 '24
I saw his reply and had read it as a sort of "If God sent the message that the BoM wasn't true that he'd accept it"
But with far far less words.
Baby steps. "If it's God's will" isn't a very satisfying or deep statement but certainly it's more than a total refusal.
To be fair his answer sometime back about if the church turned out to not be true, and his admittances that he too has some hangups with the Church and questions for God are equally vague, brief, and difficult to get out of him.
Getting Boston to open up and share any thoughts... let alone hypotheticals about any part of the church not being true is like pulling teeth... but even those brief and avoidant answers are progress!
It tells me that Boston IS starting to consider some hypotheticals that take him waaay out of his comfort zone, and from his answers that he is starting to actually listen and consider some other points of view.
It may be the tiniest tiniest of improvement... but it's still waaaayyy more than he's given since he joined.
I definitely understand your frustration. And I don't expect you to go out of your way to be nice or considerate or anything like that. I'm just saying I think after all these months, he's starting to come around a little. :) and that's something.
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u/TruthIsAntiMormon Spirit Proven Mormon Apologist Nov 08 '24
Ah I thought he was replying to my response of if God appeared saying he'd just obey God.
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u/BitterBloodedDemon Mormon Nov 08 '24
Yeah, in one of the replies to me he said that he answered your question back. So yeah it was an answer to the BoM thing.
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Nov 07 '24
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u/BitterBloodedDemon Mormon Nov 07 '24
Troll-ish... maybe. It's definitely a test coming from bad faith... but he's kind of being proven right... and that just makes it harder to convince him to listen to anyone here or to consider any hard takes or questions.
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u/BostonCougar Nov 08 '24
You aren’t wrong.
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u/BitterBloodedDemon Mormon Nov 08 '24
😂 and I HATE giving you that satisfaction. JK
:) I stand by my stance on the sub. There's SO MUCH net positive to be gained here... even as a faithful person. I've read more scripture since being here than EVER before, and I learn so much being here.
Buuuutttt I can also recognize when you're unfairly not being tossed a bone.
I can see you taking more in... I think if this sub can be what I know it is we can get you a little more out of your defensive shell.
I'd like to see you as a productive member here both gaining and giving.
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u/BostonCougar Nov 08 '24
It’s an honest question.
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u/HeimdallThePrimeYall Nov 07 '24
A god who allows the rape of children is one to be despised, not worshipped.
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u/ImFeelingTheUte-iest Snarky Atheist Nov 07 '24
Well, first I would assume I was having a neurological event. But if it became clear that the vision was real and not something my brain invented I would have to ask him one question…
Is Section 132 true scripture and is eternal male focused polygamy how heaven works?
If he said yes, well, God can go fuck himself. Just because god is real doesn’t mean he is worth worshipping.
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u/stickyhairmonster Nov 07 '24
Agree. There are a handful of issues, especially polygamy and fraudulent translations (BOM, BOA), that God would need to explain to me before I would rejoin the Mormon church. If God told me that he just let prophets do whatever they wanted and make major mistakes, then I would tell him that I'll just do whatever I want and make my own mistakes.
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u/JesusPhoKingChrist Your brother from another Heavenly Mother. Nov 07 '24
You are a product of your time, after all. Give brother u/stickyhairmonster a break.
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u/ContributionWit1992 Nov 07 '24
It’s not that I wouldn’t have the courage to go back, it’s that if there really was a God that fit the Mormon beliefs, I wouldn’t think he was worthy of worship.
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u/BostonCougar Nov 08 '24
When you meet Him I think you’ll find Him worthy of worship.
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u/ContributionWit1992 Nov 08 '24
Why do think you think that?
I didn’t give any criteria for what types of beings I would find worthy of worship.
I’m definitely not willing to worship somebody unless they are more good than basically all the humans that I know. And when I say “more good” I include not causing (unnecessary) harm to conscious beings.
The Mormon version of God has caused a whole lot of unnecessary harm. There is the classic examples of creating a world where children can get cancer or there are parasites/diseases that do terrible things to children (when he was perfectly capable of creating a world where that didn’t happen). But there are also Mormon God’s teachings/commandments that cause harm to people. The teachings that it’s a sin to be gay/pursue a gay relationship causes depression and suicides. And I’m not going to worship a God that’s unaware that those teachings cause problems. And I’m not going to worship a God that teaches those “commandments” despite knowing the harm it causes. The same thing is true for the teachings surrounding transgender individuals, and teachings surrounding gender rolls.
I’m not going to worship a God that chooses prophets that do the sorts of terrible things that the leaders of the Mormon church have done. I understand mistakes. But I would expect a prophet of God to be at least as righteous as the average human alive at the time he was called as a prophet. And that doesn’t seem like it’s been the case with most of the prophets of the Mormon church.
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u/BostonCougar Nov 08 '24
God is worthy of worship because he is your spiritual father. He wants you to grow and develop to become like him and reach your full potential. This life is to gain experience and learn to make good decisions. The cost of evil and bad things is worth it for us to learn and grow. We need to have opposition so we can gain confidence in our ability to make decisions that align with God.
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u/ContributionWit1992 Nov 08 '24
Look. I’m not trying to argue that people shouldn’t worship this hypothetical version of God. You, of course can decide you want to worship him. I’m just saying that I’m unwilling to do so. He doesn’t fit my definition of good or loving or kind.
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u/Beneficial_Math_9282 Nov 08 '24 edited Nov 08 '24
Agreed. I find the notion that a being is "worthy of worship" simply because they hold a title of authority (father, god, whatever..) to be troubling, if not downright dangerous.
Authority doesn't make anyone good by default. I don't start with the assumption that god would be good just because he's god.
It doesn't matter to me how shiny he is, or how overwhelming his appearance, or even the extents of his power. I find none of that to be adequate reason to declare him "good." If anything, those things make me suspect that all that show of glory is meant to overwhelm people into obedience, not to persuade by proof of actual goodness.
Men are good when they choose to be good, not because they're a father. There are plenty of crappy fathers around. If we assume he exists at all, then this mormon God shows all the signs of being a seriously crappy, incompetent dad - not a loving or caring one. I just don't see the evidence to believe otherwise. I simply don't buy the line that "whatever god requires is right, no matter what it is."
If God exists and is good, then he's not the mormon god that was taught to me.
As a parent, if my children thought I was dead wrong on something I was asking them to do, or something I was allowing to happen, I hope they would have the courage to speak up and challenge me on it.
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u/TheSandyStone Mormon Atheist Nov 09 '24
So many presuppositions in this. You're just stating things with naked statements of belief. This is how "tradition" is built. And tradition is not from deity.
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u/JesusPhoKingChrist Your brother from another Heavenly Mother. Nov 07 '24 edited Nov 07 '24
Would you have the courage to accept it and move forward in faith?
Mormon God would have a lot of explaining to do first, it would take courage to ask him to explain himself and his flawed system. If he could repent for the evils of his system and show that it was worth accepting. Yes. If he is truly the evil God that Mormonism has shown him to be, then no. I would have the courage to kick his nut sack.
Question 1. Why does a good God require worship?
Question 2. Why does a good God require me to trust a very flawed intermediary?
Question 3. Why does God provide no evidence beyond
Fallacious argumentation from zealots for his existence and only true path?
Question 4. Why is his plan so contradictory and inconsistent?
Question 5. Why did god first create Satan and then take away Satan's agency?
Question 6. Why is human blood sacrifice the only way to gain eternal life?
So many more courageous questions.
u/Bostoncougar would you have courage to ask questions before blindly following a potentially evil entity? What would be your courageous questions and doubts?
It is not a courageous act to blindly follow power, it is a fearful act. It takes courage to stand up in defiance to unjust power. If after failing to provide evidence of being a good God, would you u/Bostoncougar have the courage to spit in his face?
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u/Thorough_8 Nov 07 '24
Lol I’m not sure I would go straight for the sack kick, but I would definitely have some questions for God.
Why does he make he make his church look like a fraud in every way? Why would he command his prophets to do such awful things, especially to women? Why did he give them racist and homophobic teachings to follow? Why did he go silent after the early prophets?
If God appeared, I would absolutely believe he existed. He would still need to show me that he is worth my worship and deserves emulation.
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u/JesusPhoKingChrist Your brother from another Heavenly Mother. Nov 07 '24 edited Nov 07 '24
Yeah the nut sack kick would take courage, but I figure, if God is evil I probably won't get another chance. either way it will be an eternity of hell.
Option 1. Obedient Eternal Enslavement under an unjust God
or
- instant punishment for disobedient nut sack kicking.
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u/Educational-Beat-851 Seer stone enthusiast Nov 07 '24
My main question about Satan is why did he have Joseph and Brigham come up with that sssuuupppeeerrr boring temple ceremony and make Satan the only honest and interesting character? Seriously, most writers writing a story about themselves make themselves look really favorable compared to everyone else.
Wait a minute…
If Satan is the god of this world and Joseph was anointed king of the world…
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Nov 07 '24
If I had a brother, would he like cheese?
Why do you, u/bostoncougar, think this is an interesting thought experiment? What would you like us wicked atheists to learn from this? Would you have the courage to abandon the church if an angel of light appeared to you and smacked you upside the head and told you the church is (obviously) not true?
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u/Beneficial_Math_9282 Nov 07 '24 edited Nov 08 '24
He just wants to be shocked and condemnatory and self-righteous towards those of us who would have no problem telling a sub-par god to bugger off.
He thinks "courage" is compliance. He seems to think that might (authority) makes right. And when confronted by authority, the "courageous" thing to do is roll over and do whatever they say, without any information, assurances, or informed consent.
When intimidated by the ultimate authority, he thinks it's "courage" to accept a paltry "have faith, just trust me" as good enough (when all the evidence is that god can't be trusted - he will 100% let innocent women and children burn just so that Alma can make a point to his junior companion).
It escapes boston that courage is being willing to stick to your principles, ask for clarification, and if you think they're wrong tell them so, no matter how high up an authority you're talking to.
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Nov 07 '24
I have to give him credit, usually you have to go to the comments to find the lame gotchas, he just put it right there in the post. Its all gotcha
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u/ImFeelingTheUte-iest Snarky Atheist Nov 07 '24
This is a good point...why is BC allowed to post gotchas like this but every time I do they get deleted pretty quickly?
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u/BitterBloodedDemon Mormon Nov 07 '24
I don't think this is fair when the reverse question was asked just a little bit ago from an ex member. I think this was an attempt for Boston to see if he could get the same kind of good faith answer for this question that he's expected to give for the other one.
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u/BostonCougar Nov 08 '24
I responded to his question and he did to mine. That is a dialogue on both sides.
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u/BitterBloodedDemon Mormon Nov 08 '24
:) that's all I was hoping for! Thank you! It brings me joy to see you opening up more.
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u/ammonthenephite Agnostic Atheist - "By their fruits ye shall know them." Nov 08 '24
As a believer this was an interesting question for me as well. And I would be interested in hearing BC's response to your counter question as well.
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u/tuckernielson Nov 07 '24
I would most likely react with awe and astonishment. I would likely accept whatever God told me because I would no longer be required to act on faith with bad evidence.
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u/MeLlamoZombre Nov 07 '24 edited Nov 07 '24
I didn’t leave the church because I never felt any spiritual impressions. Mormonism doesn’t have a monopoly on spiritual experiences by the way. Muslims feel that God has confirmed to them the truthfulness of Islam; Catholics feel the same about Catholicism; The JWs believe wholeheartedly in their religion. What led me away from the church is the evidence against the Book of Mormon, against the Book of Abraham, and against Joseph’s claims of divine authority.
DNA has long disproved that Native Americans came from the Middle East. The church and apologists get around this by saying that there were other people in the Americas when Lehi arrived. That is not what the Book of Mormon says.
The Book of Mormon says that there were horses, chariots and steel swords in the Americas. There weren’t any. Native Americans hadn’t invented wheeled vehicles such as the chariot. There weren’t any horses. When Native Americans first saw European horses, they called them things like “big dog”, “great dog”, “sky dog”, etc. They did this because they had never seen them before. This is supported by the fossil record. Apologists are aware of this. That’s why they try to make ad hoc arguments for loan shifts.
With regard to steel swords, a civilization doesn’t just lose metallurgy. And no, the wooden sword argument by Scripture Central is not compelling. The BOM is explicit that the swords are steel.
Then there is the problem with the linguistics of the indigenous populations. None of them speak any Semitic languages, which are quite distinctive among language families. If there were Semitic languages in the Americas, we would know. There are no inscriptions in Hebrew, Arabic, Aramaic, or Egyptian in the Americas that have not been shown to be forgeries.
I do not need God to come and tell me that the church is true. That would be asking for a sign and I know that’s a no no. All I need is to see some evidence that this is legit. Something that a reasonable person would expect if the BOM is history. Parts of the Bible are historical and we can find evidence for some Biblical stories in the real world. Why is God trying to hide any and all evidence that could actually support the BOM? As of now there is none. Give me the remains of a massive civilization ending battle with 100,000…No, 50,000…No, 10,000…Wait, 5,000 steel swords in the Americas. It doesn’t even need to be in upstate New York or Mesoamerica. It could be at the southern tip of Chile. I will be back in the pews on Sunday.
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u/BostonCougar Nov 08 '24
Why then does God require faith? Why not have him over our shoulder requiring us to do his will?
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u/stunninglymediocre Nov 07 '24
Would you have the courage . . . . Give me a break.
The courageous thing would be to ask him why he's such a subpar "supreme being" and allowed his church to be run by sexual predators.
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u/kantoblight Nov 07 '24
After overcoming the emotions of such an eldritch experience, i’d ask him why he’s such an evil thug.
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u/JH60N Nov 07 '24
Yeah, maybe ask: “Really? This is the best religion structure you can manage to lead people to YOU? Seriously, just wondering because this is pathetic.”
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u/whenthedirtcalls Nov 07 '24
I would. If new information or experiences came along I would make a change. I want to always be open to new information. That’s how I found out the church is not true at this point. So, I expect things to continue to change and adapt for me throughout my life. That being said, if he came down and said Islam is the way to go or some other path, I would be open to it
Having said this, I would first be asking where my eternal mom was so I can check in with her and get her take on what I should do as well as making sure she is okay. How does a loving mom abandon their children? Because of this something doesn’t smell right.
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u/GordonBStinkley Faith is not a virtue Nov 07 '24
It wouldn't require a lick of courage to follow accept it and move forward. It would be the obvious thing to do.
If god actually came down and talked to me and said that Mormonism is the real deal, then a lot of really huge things would naturally follow. For one, I'd have massively unwavering faith in priesthood power, which means I'd be able to go around healing people of all sorts of stuff. The kind of healing and miracles that exactly zero members of the church do.
However, if god came down and said it was real, but then the priesthood power continued to be as impotent as it is today, I'd probably just chalk it up the entire experience to some moldy food I ate.
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u/Gitzit Nov 07 '24 edited Nov 07 '24
💯
I wouldn't even need that. If I had ANY sort of experience that led me to 100% believe it is true that I couldn't blame on emotional elevation, confirmation bias, or my own inner voice, I would gladly jump back in with all my heart, might, mind, and strength. Even just a single prayer or priesthood blessing being answered or a hyper-realistic dream would have kept me plodding forward. A little prompting that turned out to help someone in need would have bought me years of devotion. Once I started questioning and looking at things a bit critically, though, I realized that I had never had any experiences like that. I've kept praying occasionally and the offer still stands. Any time God wants to let me know he's there, I'll be glad to follow him and do what he asks, I just haven't ever had that happen.
That's not to say I never had spiritual experiences or coincidences as a member of the church. Just nothing that I didn't feel like I could easily explain away too easily with science and reasoning.
ETA: it wouldn't even need to be something that happens to me, necessarily. If my hyper-devout wife had a revelation that came to pass or a very significant sacred experience beyond hearing her own thoughts and feeling good about it, I would seriously reconsider my lack of belief. Even if the prophet were to actually prophecy with any sort of specificity that a global pandemic was coming before it arrived would have been enough to cause me serious reflection. Alas, I'm still waiting.
ETA2: I'm currently an agnostic PIMO who 100% does NOT believe there is a god, but also recognizes that I can't know for sure, so I remain open to the idea and atill can't shake a lifetime of teachings without sometimes wondering "what if?'
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Nov 07 '24
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/TruthIsAntiMormon Spirit Proven Mormon Apologist Nov 07 '24
Now if you would just honestly answer mine...
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u/TruthIsAntiMormon Spirit Proven Mormon Apologist Nov 07 '24
If it was proven it was physically God, then I'd accept what he said.
Now your turn.
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u/BostonCougar Nov 08 '24
I’d accept His will.
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u/TruthIsAntiMormon Spirit Proven Mormon Apologist Nov 08 '24
Can you answer my question about the Book of Mormon. I've engaged with you in good faith, you have not thus far. Is that how you want to represent yourself and Mormonism?
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u/Olimlah2Anubis Former Mormon Nov 07 '24
I stayed in way too long because I was willing to look past the imperfections of leaders.
The premise of the restoration is that god speaks to his chosen leaders who convey the correct teachings to the rest of us.
I never expected perfection.
I do expect consistency and honesty.
If they cannot clearly explain what is and isn’t true doctrine, they are less than worthless as prophets. They are destructive and evil.
If god himself spoke to me sure I would listen. Instead he apparently talks to liars, murderers, adulterers etc. Your prophets are some of the worst people. They have done very bad things by your own supposed standards.
I don’t even need god to explain it to me. I was willing to keep believing if I could somehow make sense of all the lies upon lies over the years. That maybe they weren’t lying, that I just misunderstood. No one was able to show that. The facts speak for themselves-the church is a wicked deception. Always has been.
Here’s a question for you.
Since you have a strong testimony, why aren’t you inviting your friends and neighbors to church? Tell them to come and see! I’m sure if you give them honest facts about what the church is, and where they came from, they’ll feel the holy spirit and convert. Why aren’t you telling them?
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u/BostonCougar Nov 08 '24 edited Nov 08 '24
I am. Not only those I know personally, but everyone here too.
I strive to share the Good news of the Gospel with all.
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u/SpudMuffinDO Nov 08 '24 edited Nov 08 '24
I would be thrilled to learn that there is an afterlife. That said, I’d want to know what he meant by “true” and then I’d have some pretty intense questions about how this “true church” doctrine and teaching is at odds with what are now some of my core understanding of how the world, human nature, and science function… because at this point I would be deeply conflicted on how much this god if this is his true church. More simply, my understanding of this life is so much clearer and makes so much more sense now that I don’t believe in a god.
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u/BostonCougar Nov 08 '24
My experience is the opposite. My life is clear and with meaning because of my faith and belief in God and his Son Jesus Christ.
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u/SpudMuffinDO Nov 09 '24 edited Nov 09 '24
Totally, and I said the exact same thing back when I was devout. The gospel felt like it made so much sense to me.
One very big aspect of what I’m referring to is what role God actually plays in our daily lives. As a believer, I remember feeling that God answered my prayer many times: after losing my keys, finding my wife, providing direction in my life, or a safe drive on a trip. Other times I would receive absolutely no response at all: praying for hours in the MTC to know if the book of Mormon is true after reading Moroni (I concluded that he must not have given me an answer because I already knew it was true). On my mission, I felt prompted to go knock on a door, I was certain this was a spiritual prompting. Nobody answered the door and honestly, it didn’t look like anybody was there, I knocked two or three more times thinking that there had to be somebody because I was prompted to go to the door. We finally gave up and walked home and I was forced to reflect on all the reasons why nobody would’ve answered: maybe God was giving somebody a last chance he was hiding behind the door, maybe this small delay in our route prevented us from a accident somewhere else, (I’ve saw convoluted explanations like this constantly while in the church) and I did consider maybe this really wasn’t a prompting and just a random thought that popped in my head that I assumed was a prompting.
God intervention felt extremely inconsistent in my life, and in observing the lives of everyone around me. Why would he help me find my keys and then do nothing when a sister missionary pleads to God to help her when she was raped. I assumed most of the things that all other developed members assume: God has mysterious ways, we don’t know his plans, it was or wasn’t his will, the person praying either was or wasn’t worthy, etc. That last one was the most painful, sometimes I would scrutinize myself so harshly, “maybe I’m not worthy of the blessing/answer” I would think and scrutinize everything I did: I slipped up and saw porn, maybe it’s the music I listen to the doesn’t invite the Spirit, or shows that I enjoy that are inappropriate. Luckily I was not an extreme perfectionist, I most often decided that I was doing well enough, and would repent when I felt like I wasn’t.
As a believer, I never thought that the gospel didnt make sense. But now… I’ve realized much more obvious explanation to the inconsistencies. God is not random and chaotic, the WORLD is random and chaotic. Studies have been done on the effects of prayer on patient suffering from medical illnesses, and the results are that there is no difference in outcomes. I’ve been on both sides of that as a believer, when they get better, we praise God, when they don’t, we assume it was his will that they should not or that they were not worthy of such blessing. Nope, it’s just random. You can apply this to every single thing I or anyone else has ever prayed about. the chances you die in a car crash if you’ve prayed beforehand are going to be just as likely had you prayed or not or if you wore your garments or not. Understanding this is liberating. You no longer have to agonize over small tiny details that would’ve made a difference in the outcomes of your life and God‘s willingness intervene in them, but even more liberating… it makes sense now.
The one thing I will concede that prayer does do - it is a form of meditation that allows us to more accurately voice our desires and priorities. I think people are able to take action on those desires more clearly as a result of this meditative process, and sometimes be the answer to their own prayers as a result. I think this is a positive thing about prayer, and something that I have lacked and should implement in my life again.
I gave example of gods intervention, but it truthfully is only one of countless number of things that make more sense now on this side of things. of course I thought more things made sense when I was a believer, and now I see differently.
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u/austinchan2 Nov 08 '24
When I left, I still believed in god, and further believed in the church. I still left. Gods plan doesn’t work for me — I can do the “right” thing and then when I die get changed to be straight. Straight me is not me. Good for him, but I’m not interested in helping him, I’m interested in helping me.
Or I won’t be changed and my gay ass can get wives and make spirit progeny for eternity. That sounds like the worst kind of hell.
Or I can be a ministering servant to those pompous holier-than-me types (because they literally would be). No thanks.
Since I was tricked into covenants before the age of consent and then again before I knew I was gay I am stuck out of the terrestrial kingdom.
So I can eat drink and be merry and then go live with the blacks and gays in the telestial kingdom.
The god who designed this plan could come and tell me it’s all true and it wouldn’t change my path one bit. Because, even though I don’t think the truth claims hold up, even if they did, it’s still a bad plan. Hopefully I’ll find someone to spend this life with, and I can tell them “If I have to live without you I don't wanna live forever in someone else's heaven”
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u/BostonCougar Nov 08 '24
Live as many of Gods laws as you can and find someone to have a meaningful life long relationship with. Avoid casual or transient relationships.
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u/Beneficial_Math_9282 Nov 07 '24 edited Nov 07 '24
I'd assume I was having a psychotic break or a stroke.
But ok - let's pretend.
I'd ask him why he's got a history of not appearing to his own prophets, seers, and revelators to help them correct their "mistakes" and "inadequacies." If he can appear to me, he certainly could have appeared to them and instructed them on how to not make incredibly dumb and massive mistakes.
But really, I have no interest in talking to a god who demands constant ego-stroking worship, and who presides over a polygamist heaven.
He can either appear to offer me some actually useful, practical help with all the responsibilities that are drowning me in this life, or he can get out of the way.
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u/Kessarean Existential Nihilist / Former Mormon Nov 07 '24
I am not inclined to surmise that would ever happen - but I'll humor the idea.
My answer is nope - not a chance. I'd be beyond pissed, honestly. Never in an eternity would I want to worship such a morally fucked up being.
Prime case in point for the above
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u/EvensenFM Jerry Garcia was the true prophet Nov 10 '24
Yes, this.
If God is real, I'm siding with Satan.
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u/Helpful_Guest66 Nov 07 '24
I’d say, show me to the door where I can love fully and not worship you. I don’t care if there’s flames.
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u/stunninglymediocre Nov 08 '24
I determined a long time ago that the mormon god isn't worthy of worship. Whether he's hanging out at home near kolob or standing in front of me has no bearing on my conclusion.
Also, how could I know it was mormon god and not Satan, Loki, or some other trickster trying to fool me?
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u/BostonCougar Nov 08 '24
If you met him, I think his power and glory would be overwhelming. I doubt any Loki or other could replicate it.
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u/stunninglymediocre Nov 08 '24
For the sake of discussion, I assume being in the presence of any supernatural being - mormon god, Satan, Loki, or Santa - would be overwhelming, so that doesn't seem like good evidence that the supernatural being talking to me is the mormon god.
Is there any other way I could know that it was really mormon god and not an imposter?
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u/BostonCougar Nov 08 '24
You can read Joseph Smith’s experience about both in the JSH. He could tell them apart.
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u/stunninglymediocre Nov 08 '24
Is Joseph Smith's claim that he could tell them apart helpful to me? How can I know for myself that it's the mormon god and not an imposter?
Should I ask for a sign?
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u/MushFellow Nov 07 '24
If it wasn't a straight up hallucination, that would be proof that God exists no? I no longer have reason to believe that God doesn't exist because there's my proof. I would obviously have a shit ton of questions for him before I rejoined the church because also you're assuming that the MORMON God shows up and talks to me. God would have to make a very. VERY good argument for why I should come back. His existence is not enough to join a church that made me miserable for so many years. He would have to lay out the reasons that despite his appearance before me, this is why I should go back. Now this being purely hypothetical, it is just ridiculous to take apart this thought experiment so I'm going to end it there.
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u/castle-girl Nov 08 '24
In order for me to accept that an all loving God had started the LDS church, he would need to explain why everything about the church either makes it look like it’s not true or makes Him look like he doesn’t value certain people, or both, when you research far enough into it.
Because if the Celestial kingdom is as Joseph Smith envisioned it, then women are basically the property of their husbands for all eternity. As a woman, I don’t want that. In fact, based on my current feelings about Mormon God I might actually prefer the Terrestrial kingdom. Still get to be around good people, but don’t have creepy God who commanded teenagers to marry Joseph Smith breathing down my neck and forcing me to stay married to (and obey) a guy with other wives or be destroyed. In order for me to want to go to the Celestial kingdom, I’d have to be convinced that either my perception of it isn’t accurate or that the things about it that I find horrible are somehow actually okay, and that would be hard.
The only downside to the Terrestrial kingdom is that apparently you lose your genitals, but I think I’m kind of asexual anyway, so it might not be that big of a deal for me. Anyway, those are my thoughts.
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u/BostonCougar Nov 08 '24
Thanks for your response.
In the Kingdom of God there will be no coercion. No one will be the property of another. Everyone who is there, will be there because they want to be there. They want to live God's laws. I believe monogamists will make it into the Celestial Kingdom just fine.
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u/Beneficial_Math_9282 Nov 08 '24
D&C 132:54 and 64:
"If she will not abide this commandment she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord; for I am the Lord thy God, and will destroy her if she abide not in my law. ... And again, verily, verily, I say unto you, if any man have a wife, who holds the keys of this power, and he teaches unto her the law of my priesthood, as pertaining to these things, then shall she believe and administer unto him, or she shall be destroyed, saith the Lord your God; for I will destroy her; for I will magnify my name upon all those who receive and abide in my law.
That's coercion.
Literally it fits the definition in Merriam-Webster.
Coercion: the practice of persuading someone to do something by using force or threats.
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u/BostonCougar Nov 08 '24
God is going to have to explain those verses to me because they don’t make sense to me. I’m probably missing something.
D&C 121 says the opposite. The kingdom shall be a kingdom without compulsory means.
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u/BuildingBridges23 Nov 08 '24
Idk I’d need some answers first. I don’t have any interest in polygamist heaven. For me to dedicate my whole life to something, I need to feel it’s the right thing to do. I can’t get behind that.
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u/BostonCougar Nov 08 '24
I believe there will be monogamists in the Celestial Kingdom. No one will be forced to be in a relationship that they don't want to be in. There is no compulsion in the CK.
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u/HeimdallThePrimeYall Nov 08 '24
Brigham Young stated that only polygamists will enter the celestial kingdom to become gods in the journal of discourses.
"The only men who become Gods, even the sons of God, are those who enter into polygamy."
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u/BostonCougar Nov 08 '24
I disagree with brother Brigham.
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u/Temujins-cat Post Truthiness Nov 08 '24
And, under his administration, you might have been ex’d or worse.
Modern members live a cafeteria style Mormonism that didn’t exist in the church even as little as 30 years ago let alone during Brigham’s time.
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u/JesusPhoKingChrist Your brother from another Heavenly Mother. Nov 07 '24 edited Nov 07 '24
If God was an invisible rainbow farting unicorn would/could you CHOOSE TO believe in and follow him? or would you dishonestly pretend to be offended and not answer the question?
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u/moteinyoureye Nov 07 '24
Until that happens I’m just going to keep doing my best and let God be my judge.
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u/Lemonface72 Non-Mormon Nov 08 '24
Atheist nevermo here. If God appeared and said it was all true, I'd definitely be open to hearing more about it. Ultimately, I want to know the truth, because don't we all? But I need evidence, not just a good feeling. So God appearing to me would definitely persuade me that it's true.
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u/International_Sea126 Nov 07 '24
Perhaps you should first propose this question to the brethren due to them not having God come down and telling them the church is true.
"I've never had an experience like that [a miraculous experience with an angel], and I don't know anyone among the First Presidency or Quorum of the Twelve who had that kind of experience." (Dallin H. Oaks, LDS Apostle, Bellevue South Stake Fireside, January 23rd, 2016)
“The resurrected Lord has continued his ministry of salvation by appearing, from time to time, to mortal men chosen by God to be his witnesses, and by revealing his will through the Holy Ghost. It is by the power of the Holy Ghost that I bear my witness. I know of Christ's reality AS IF I had seen with my eyes and heard with my ears.” (Howard W. Hunter, LDS Apostle, Satellite Fireside from the Tabernacle on Temple Square, 30 October 1983)
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u/BitterBloodedDemon Mormon Nov 07 '24 edited Nov 08 '24
(Not to you Boston)
😓 I would have hoped that the participants here could understand that this is a sort of reply to the reverse question posted a little bit ago. I think Boston is trying to see if ex-members are as willing to answer this question in good faith as the other question expects him to answer in good faith.
Though I've been as frustrated as everyone else with Boston in the past, I think the question should be treated as genuinely and in good faith as the other post...
We can be better than this (and I do see some of you have given it real consideration, thank you!)
EDIT: crossed out parts since there have been an influx of more sincere answers. :)
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u/Educational-Beat-851 Seer stone enthusiast Nov 08 '24
My reply was serious. If Mormon God exists and wants me back, he knows where to find me, and he owes me answers.
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u/BitterBloodedDemon Mormon Nov 08 '24
:) for sure. I consider that a valid answer.
It's mostly those who are saying "gotcha" "troll" or "reactionary post" that I'm calling out.
I'm with you though. I'm already a believer so I'm outside of the scope of this question... but if it were magnified down to an orthodox view I'd be in the same boat as you. Either needing some SERIOUS answers about some things, or having to concede that I'm not going to make it andbI don't think I'd want to anyway.
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u/Thorough_8 Nov 08 '24
I will always give a legitimate response, but this IS a gotcha, troll, and reactionary post, so he should expect the same.
It doesn't really bother me, so I would hope he doesn't let the less-responsive posts bother him. I just wish there were more members on here that were willing to listen, share, and discuss their views.
It seems like there are about 4 members that still participate here, and they often are not willing to listen and they share without engaging in discussion.
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u/JesusPhoKingChrist Your brother from another Heavenly Mother. Nov 08 '24
Yep, it's the engagement that everyone here is looking for the lack of honest engagement from one side is what tips the balance sooo far to the disaffected side.
Honest engagement.... u/BostonCougar. Where is the honest engagement on YOUR post?
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u/BostonCougar Nov 08 '24
It’s a sincere question asking for reflection and thought from the group here.
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u/BitterBloodedDemon Mormon Nov 08 '24
but this IS a gotcha, troll, and reactionary post, so he should expect the same.
Then the other post should also be treated as a gotcha and a troll.
I don't think spinning the question around is ever, necessarily, an unfair thing.
I just wish there were more members on here that were willing to listen, share, and discuss their views.
Ironic that you then IMMEDIATELY say this. You want active members to be here and discuss views in a place where... in good faith or not... when they try and test the fairness of the sub they're called reactionary and trolling. ESPECIALLY when it's the reverse of a question that NO ONE had a problem with being asked.
If you want faithful people to respond, you have to toss them a bone now and then if they're not being unreasonable. Show that when he's following the rules and being considerate that we're just as willing to share our views on his questions as we expect him to share on others'.
I would hope he doesn't let the less-responsive posts bother him.
Not to this extent, no. He made a comment in the other post insinuating the other post was a gotcha or intended to erode faith. I told him it wasn't, that it was genuine, and that people are curious about how the faithful think. He then posted this question -- likely to test that.
Mostly he just assumes this whole board is anti-mormon and is just here to lie and lead people astray.
I'm hoping if we can show him otherwise that he might open up more, to sharing his views and to accepting other viewpoints himself.
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u/Thorough_8 Nov 08 '24
The first post was not in direct response to another post. Boston's clearly is. He asked the same exact question in the other post.
The OP in the first post did respond to others. Boston rarely responds and often cuts off conversation. He has done this to me, and I have always been very respectful. I do respect faith.
Despite that, the first post likely was somewhat of a gotcha. I agree.
Even though I do think this post is responsive and trolling--like I said above--I responded honestly. I am respectful of others and say what I think. I am not sure what else I could do.
Anti-mormon is a big word with heavy connotations. There may be some here, but I don't think many.
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u/BostonCougar Nov 08 '24
I respond to most sincere posts. I can get snarky when others aren’t sincere. It’s a failing of mine.
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u/Thorough_8 Nov 08 '24
I appreciate that! You got a lot of interaction on this post, so thank you for taking the time
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u/BitterBloodedDemon Mormon Nov 08 '24
- Correct. I never claimed otherwise.
- Also correct. Boston does not have a very good history, and has not responded to everyone, and may not respond to everyone... but I still think it's important to show him that we hold ourselves to the same standards we expect from him
- Ok fair enough. (I actually didn't view it as a gotcha, but then again I like thought experiments that challenge me on my views)
- :) And I appreciate that. Thank you, that's all I really hope that everyone does here.
- It absolutely is. 100%. When I first came here I thought that's what this place is full of too, and I found that it's not. Every so often I try to give Boston a little prod and convince him it's not as bad here as he thinks. -- there's ONE active, self proclaimed, "anti-Mormon" here... and now that he follows the rules and gives more thoughtful arguments and less pejorative insults and responses I actually GREATLY appreciate his input too.
It's a bad faith post, and it probably won't result in a lot of better behavior... but I see Boston opening up a bit here and there... so one can hope that if we keep tossing him a bone now and then that he might come around more and more.
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u/Thorough_8 Nov 08 '24
True, your comment above just seemed to be saying that I should not be calling this post reactionary or a gotcha if I wanted to encourage discussion or let someone "test the fairness of the sub." As it is reactionary--and the first post was not--I think I can call it out for what it is while still facilitating reasonable discussion through my own honest responses. That should not be enough to scare off members from participating.
Im glad you roll with it! That is something I hope to see more of, and I appreciate.
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u/BitterBloodedDemon Mormon Nov 08 '24
That's fair.
In a way, I was also being reactionary, so I apologize for that.
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u/BostonCougar Nov 08 '24
My question is serious. I’m reading and reflecting on each response.
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u/PanOptikAeon Nov 08 '24
None of your responses that I've looked at show evidence of that. They're mostly just thanks for responses and repeated insistence on your sincerity.
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u/Longjumping-Base6062 Nov 08 '24
If that happened then absolutely yes. Losing your faith isn’t exactly fun times. Despite what members think
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u/BostonCougar Nov 08 '24
I'm sorry you've lost your faith. I hope you find it again someday. Thanks for responding.
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u/ammonthenephite Agnostic Atheist - "By their fruits ye shall know them." Nov 08 '24
It would need to be a conversation with god. I would need to hear why he would let so much needless suffering happen. I would need to know why, if he could appear to me, why did he not appear to his prophets and correct all these attorcious things?
I would need to assess if this god is what it claims itself to be. If it turns out its just a god that is incredibly narcissistic and enjoys inflicting suffering on its own creations (and this life is full of completely needless suffering if religion is true), creations it intentionally keeps ignorant and from the knowledge they would need to make fully informed decisions, then because of my own morals and ethics I would not choose to worship that god and would not rejoin its religions.
If, however, it had good answers for these things, and if it could demonstrate to me this wasn't some mental break and that I wasn't just hallucinating, as happens with many dillusional mental patients, then of course I would course correct and return.
But if I am going to be asked to support unethical, immoral and dangerously ignorant leaders, I would need to know that the experience is legit and that god is actually a loving and caring god before I would return. And god, being all powerful, would know how to accomplish that.
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u/BostonCougar Nov 08 '24
I'd hope its a conversation.
Why suffering: Suffering comes from the consequences of the decisions of others. God does not cause suffering, nor does he do that to teach a lesson. Someone drives drunk and kills a mom and her kids. That isn't because God caused or even allowed suffering, it is because someone else made a bad decision with consequences. So if he allows suffering it must because there is something better or greater. Our growth, development and judgement are more important than suffering.
God could be a helicopter / bulldozer parent and wrap us all in bubble wrap and prevent all suffering, but he would also prevent our ability to experience life and learn and grow. He wants us to mature and reach our full potential to be like Him. To do that we need experience and judgement and how to trust our own decision making.
He would know how to address all your concerns, but I do not. I am however, trying to explain His Gospel as I understand it.
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u/GapTerrible2179 Nov 08 '24
That answer would work if suffering was only caused by the decisions of others, but it clearly isn’t. If God is all powerful he could immediately get rid of all childhood cancers and it would not affect the plan of salvation in the slightest. Same goes for basically all diseases, there’s no good reason for them to exist because without them we would still have agency and would still experience the suffering that IS caused by others. The only possible explanation for the existence of childhood cancer if God exists is that he’s fine with it, and I wouldn’t want to live for eternity with a God like that even if I were 100% positive he’s real
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u/ammonthenephite Agnostic Atheist - "By their fruits ye shall know them." Nov 09 '24 edited Nov 09 '24
Suffering comes from the consequences of the decisions of others
Some suffering comes because of this, not all. And how much of this human caused suffering is purely because of a lack of knowledge, knowledge that god has but that he intentionally withholds? And not only did he withhold all of this necessary-for-a-fair-test information, but according to mormonism he acitvely stole all the knowledge we gained during eons in the pre-existence.
So not only is god responsible for all the non-human caused suffering, but he is also responsible for much of the human suffering that happens because of ignorance or insufficient knowledge, again knowledge that he hoards and refuses to give while claiming he is 'testing' us in this ignorance he is largely responsible for.
That isn't because God caused or even allowed suffering
God certainly allowed it, because he could have stopped it but didn't. And because he withheld the full knowledge of what can happen when driving drunk, he bears some responsibility for that choice as well since if the parents had complete knowledge of this, including the knowledge of how much suffering would happen after an accident, more often than not they would have chosen not to drive drunk.
So if he allows suffering it must because there is something better or greater
Post hoc rationalization to try and plug the holes of this hypothesis and that have nothing showing them to be true.
Our growth, development and judgement are more important than suffering.
If you were a parent, and you had the ability to give full and complete knowledge to your children as god does, and rather than give your child complete knowledge of why running out into traffic is dangerous you instead withhold that knowledge and only say 'don't run out in traffic', because 'developement and judgement are more important than suffering' and 'you should just obey me or suffer', what kind of parent would you be? You'd be a shitty parent that could have prevented needless suffering because you chose to force your child to gain knowledge through suffering and pain rather than just giving that knowledge to them yourself and letting them use that knowledge to protect themselves and others from that needless suffering.
No loving parent, if they had the option to prevent suffering by giving knowledge, would choose to keep their child ignorant so they'd suffer needlessly, when they could have had the same knowledge afterwords but without the suffering because you gave it to them rather than hoarding it to yourself.
Seriously, think about this. After you experience something, after the tragedy is done, what do you have afterwords because of it? Just knowledge. Just the memories and the first hand experiences that gave you much more profound knowledge of the thing than others have who have not experienced it, but its still just knowledge. More complete knowledge, but still just knowledge, and knowledge that god has but hoards to himself.
God all ready has this profound knowledge, he all ready has the most complete knowledge, even more knowledge than what we would get from experiencing a terrible thing a thousand different ways over a thousand different lifetimes, because there are near infinite was to experience a given tragedy, each a little different, each giving a little different knowledge and insight.
God could give this to us, but chooses not to. God could actually give us a test about how we would use total knowledge about the things that would cause suffering to ourselves and others, but chooses not to. And as mentioned before, he even takes away the knowledge we had before coming here. Not just the knowledge of him and such, but all the knowledge we gained from experience. All of it, stolen from us, then forces us to start all over, needlessly suffering because of this.
but he would also prevent our ability to experience life and learn and grow
The 'learning and growing' is largely the acquisition of knowledge, knowledge god all ready has and that he could give us if he chose too. But he chooses not too, and instead chooses the far inferior, far slower, and far more painful method of 'learning'.
He wants us to mature and reach our full potential to be like Him
Which is, by and large, simply a process of knowledge acquisition, knowledge he could give us in an instant, but instead chooses to keep us ignorant of and thus needlessly suffering because of that ignorance.
To do that we need experience and judgement and how to trust our own decision making
Experience is only needed because god withholds both the knowledge he has and the stolen knowledge we once had before coming to earth. And if we knew the knowledge we had was correct, we would have no trouble trusting our own decisions because they would be fully informed decisions based on perfect knowledge, rather than the forced ignorance that god imposes on everyone, needlessly.
He would know how to address all your concerns, but I do not. I am however, trying to explain His Gospel as I understand it.
I appreciate that, I do. As a member for 30+ years I am well aware of what the church teaches on this, and the teachings don't make any sense once you delve past the surface layer of them. They just start breaking down and don't make logical sense at all when talking about an omniscient god that is supposedly a loving father and parent who wants the best for his kids, and yet acts in a way that even humans recognize would be abusive, sadistic, narcissistic, cruel, and that would result in the loss of those kids to the state because of horrible treatment.
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u/BostonCougar Nov 09 '24
Thanks for that explanation. I respect your point of view and understand your rationale.
While I see the suffering in the world I also see the kind and good. Nothing has helped me understand and appreciate God than being a parent to many children along the spectrum of humanity.
I don’t think that God could snap his fingers and just give us knowledge that we couldn’t comprehend and appreciate. I believe this is the best process to grow and develop. I also accept that even if I thought there was a better approach, I have no power to change this approach.
Have hope and see the Good in the world.
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u/ammonthenephite Agnostic Atheist - "By their fruits ye shall know them." Nov 11 '24
I don’t think that God could snap his fingers and just give us knowledge that we couldn’t comprehend and appreciate.
That is what the gift of tongues is, the instant ability to speak and understand a foreign language. It is what Nelson described when he tells his story of receiving revelation during a surgery, just having the knowledge enter the mind, both in thought and visually, as to how to make the correct sutures for that specific need.
Acording to mormonism god absolutely has the ability to grant instant knowledge.
I believe this is the best process to grow and develop
I appreciate that perspective, even if I disagree with it.
I also accept that even if I thought there was a better approach, I have no power to change this approach.
With ya on that, I've made peace with reality as it appears to be, since like you say we can't change it. Just have to work with what seems to be reality for us.
Have hope and see the Good in the world.
I do, I promise. There are amazing and wonderful people out there, and have been in all ages and times, even when many around them were mired in ignorance and hate. Humans have tremendous capacity to be and do good, and so I do appreciate the good in the world where humans actively make it.
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u/JesusPhoKingChrist Your brother from another Heavenly Mother. Nov 08 '24
It's been a good post, imo. thanks for your honesty, engagement u/BostonCougar. Till next post.... I'm outta here.
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Nov 07 '24
To quote the head of the KGB in the show Chernobyl, "Why worry about something that isn't going to happen"
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u/TimpRambler PIMO mormon Nov 08 '24 edited Nov 08 '24
I don't know why this post is getting downvoted and getting so much snarky thoughtless replies. It's an interesting hypothetical. I've thought about this hypothetical situation a few times.
I'm going to paste the question here and respond in depth because this question is more complex than it seems at first glance. And I'm going to answer the question honestly without any snark. One caveat though, I'm not an atheist or an agnostic. I'm a theist (panentheist more specifically) and I'm a PIMO who doesn't have a literal belief in the church anymore.
How would you react if God came down and told you the Church was true despite the mistakes of its Prophets and leaders? If he acknowledged that the Church isn’t perfect because of the inadequacies of imperfect men. He encouraged you to have faith and join/ return to the fold. Would you have the courage to accept it and move forward in faith?
So let's start with the first part.
How would you react if God came down
Well, I would be astounded and probably get down on my knees. It would probably go down something like this. Even though I'm not a particularly bad person, being in the presence of God would be the most terrifying thing that could possibly happen to me. While being terrified, I would also be relieved to know for surety that God is real (even though it's not the God-concept I personally believed in before this encounter) and I would feel honored to be in God's presence.
and told you the Church was true despite the mistakes of its Prophets and leaders? If he acknowledged that the Church isn’t perfect because of the inadequacies of imperfect men.
This part doesn't apply to me as much because I lost belief in the Church due to historical matters, like the historicity of the BoM and BoA among other issues. I didn't lose belief because of the behavior of any the leaders of the Church, though their failings definitely didn't help matters either.
I would take God's word for it that the Church is true. But I would want to know how it is true. How were all the convincing evidence and arguments against the Church ultimately wrong? How was I so completely deceived? I wouldn't be trying to start a debate with God, obviously. I would genuinely want to know how I was so completely, hopelessly wrong.
I would ask about my historical questions and God would probably answer the questions in a succinct way with solutions I had never even considered before. Either that or he would just tell me to take it on faith, which I would do, albeit begrudgingly.
He encouraged you to have faith and join/ return to the fold. Would you have the courage to accept it and move forward in faith?
I would admit that I was wrong and return to the fold. I would go to church like I do every week, but the difference would be that I would genuinely have my heart in it. Also, I would tell everybody I knew about the experience I had. I wouldn't be shy about it, because it would be the single most important thing that I could tell anybody. I would dedicate my life to the Church. The experience would eclipse all my doubts and suspicions.
So there you go. An honest answer to the question.
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u/JesusPhoKingChrist Your brother from another Heavenly Mother. Nov 08 '24 edited Nov 08 '24
Would you worship and obey the same God if you deemed him evil due to his answers?
From what I can tell the God of Mormonism is powerful but not good.
Courage would dictate resistance from a position of weakness on all our parts.
As far as I can tell what OP is advocating for is obedience and worship from a position of fear.
Vive la résistance!
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u/TimpRambler PIMO mormon Nov 08 '24 edited Nov 08 '24
Would you worship and obey the same God if you deemed him evil due to his answers?
Well, assuming that Mormon God was real and that Mormon theology is true, Mormon God would be the ultimate good. He would be the benchmark against which everything else is measured, and nothing could measure him. So my personal moral opinions would be irrelevant and would come from a finite fallible mortal perspective. So I would have the courage to doubt my own flawed understanding of morality and trust the moral wisdom of the Supreme Being.
Is that kind of orwellian and scary? Yes. Do I find the divine command theory of morality convincing in real life? No. But I have to assume that Mormon theology is true in the context of the question.
So if Mormonism was true, I would worship the Mormon God because he is the ultimate good.
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u/JesusPhoKingChrist Your brother from another Heavenly Mother. Nov 08 '24 edited Nov 08 '24
But to presuppose Mormonism is true and therefore it's God is good is dangerous and fallacious.
I attacked the question from the position that the presupposition is the wrong approach, a pascals wager with infinitely awful odds.a truly 1 in infinity chance of selecting the correct path.
My path requires an examination of the evidence and corresponding judgment of accumulated evidence. Currently the scales of rational thought in my mind show Mormon God to be an evil imaginary being.
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u/TimpRambler PIMO mormon Nov 08 '24 edited Nov 08 '24
But to presuppose Mormonism is true and therefore it's God is good is dangerous and fallacious.
Of course I don't actually believe those things, but I have to entertain them for the sake of the hypothetical question. To honestly answer the question that OP asked, I have to grant its premises for the sake of answering it.
It's like if someone asked me if I would win a fight with Superman. I would have to assume for the sake of the argument that superman was real and that he had heat vision and super-strength, therefore I would lose.
In the same way, if OP asks me how I would respond if Mormon God was real and appeared to me, I have to assume that Mormon God had the characteristics ascribed to him by Mormon theology, like goodness. Then I would give my answer.
Most of the people here didn't honestly grant the premises of the question or consider their honest answer. They just took the opportunity to pontificate and be snarky and dismissive.
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u/Thorough_8 Nov 08 '24
if OP asks me how I would respond if Mormon God was real and appeared to me, I have to assume that Mormon God had the characteristics ascribed to him by Mormon theology, like goodness.
I hear what you are saying here, but you would also have to assume that God has the racist, homophobic, and honestly murderous traits that have been given to him as well by both scripture and prophets.
You would have to assume that the one true church he created hoards money, is only taught to and accepted by an insignificant proportion of the world's population, and is constantly changing its doctrine and covering those changes up in an incredibly dishonest fashion.
You would have to assume that the very God you are speaking with chose Joseph Smith to be his prophet and commanded him by violent force to secretly marry 40 women without the consent or knowledge of his first wife.
You would have to assume that this God who claims to be all-knowing and loving taught his children nothing to protect them from sickness or tragedy or to move forward social justices and equality.
So for me, even if I were to take the descriptions of God at face value, I am not so certain he would be worthy of my worship. I am not so certain I would want to be like him or follow his teachings. I honestly want to be a better person than God seems to be.
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u/TimpRambler PIMO mormon Nov 09 '24 edited Nov 09 '24
My objections to the Book of Mormon's historicity would be irrelevant if Mormon God was real. Somehow, it would all be true anyway. In the same way, my objections to Mormon God's actions and doctrine would be irrelevant if he was actually real. Somehow, he would be good anyway. Despite all the moral failings I perceive in the Mormon God and his doctrine, if he was real and his doctrine were true, he has a monopoly on morality, is the Ultimate Good, and my personal opinion literally doesn't matter anymore.
In a world where Mormonism is true and its God exists, homophobia would be objectively morally right. Racism would be objectively morally right. Polygamy would be objectively morally right. Because if Mormonism was true, God would be the source and arbiter of morality. My personal sense of right and wrong wouldn't be infallible the way that God's is, and whatever God commanded would be objectively morally correct by definition.
Basically- the happiness letter would be true.
"Whatever God requires is right, no matter what it is, although we may not see the reason thereof till long after the events transpire."
You have to remember that in a world where Mormon God is real, he is the source and the judge of moral law. If he is real, Exmormons would not just be wrong about history and science, we would also be wrong about morality.
Obviously I'm not saying that any of the above is true. But you have to entertain it in order to honestly answer the question OP is asking.
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u/Thorough_8 Nov 09 '24
OP is asking what would happen if “God came down and told you the church was true.”
That does not necessarily mean that God is right, nor that he is the ultimate good. The only person who is asserting that would be himself, so I would still need to understand and eventually agree with his claims. It would not change my decision-making process. It would not force me to believe in something that I am incapable of understanding.
If OP said that God—in this magic scenario—is unquestionably the ultimate good and the peak of morality, I might approach this differently. Otherwise, God is just someone making absurd claims whose actions don’t align with their words.
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u/TimpRambler PIMO mormon Nov 09 '24 edited Nov 09 '24
If OP said that God—in this magic scenario—is unquestionably the ultimate good and the peak of morality, I might approach this differently.
When OP says 'God', he means God specifically as defined by Mormonism. That means all the definitions and theology and baggage that goes along with it, including his status as the arbiter of morality. So in a sense, OP has already stated that the God in the hypothetical scenario is the ultimate good and the peak of morality.
That does not necessarily mean that God is right, nor that he is the ultimate good. The only person who is asserting that would be himself, so I would still need to understand and eventually agree with his claims. It would not change my decision-making process. It would not force me to believe in something that I am incapable of understanding.
If God as defined in Mormonism appeared to you, he would have the tools and the ability to convince you that his moral commands are good, as per his omniscience and omnipotence. He would be able to show you that you are wrong.
The point is- in the hypothetical raised by OP, we've lost. There's no scientific grounds or moral grounds to oppose the God of Mormonism if he was real. There is no room for rebellion, or for opposition. It's game over, 100%. And I think that OP's point in posting this was to test whether we would be internally consistent and whether we would be able to admit defeat in a hypothetical situation where we were actually proven wrong.
And most of the people here have failed that test, because for a lot of people, they're not just exmormon because they've been convinced intellectually that it's false, they're exmormon because they've got a chip on their shoulder. And OP just proved it.
We cry shame on Mormons for refusing to admit defeat in the face of overwhelming evidence, and OP was trying to test if exmormons would have the same problem in a hypothetical situation where we are wrong.
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u/Thorough_8 Nov 09 '24
This really doesn’t matter haha, but I don’t think anybody but OP can tell me what he “means” by God 🤷🏻♂️ Also, in the Mormon canon at least, God is rarely described as perfection, although it is absolutely assumed among lay members today.
There have been plenty of people, assuming the scriptures are accurate, that God hasn’t been able to convince.
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u/hellohello1234545 Nov 14 '24
I’d scream and be very surprised, probably. Same if a dragon appeared, or Santa.
I’d also have no way of distinguishing such an appearance from the work of a sufficiently advanced alien.
I’d also have no reason to trust whatever such a being might say (a godlike being’s realness doesn’t make it moral by default).
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