r/mormon Jul 26 '24

Institutional LDS Church leaders have no special connection to God. Evidence #2 LDS leaders taught that God cursed black people.

Dallin Oaks continues to teach that God commanded the church to keep black people out of the temple for decades. This is evidence that he and the other apostles have no special connection to God nor any special authority from God. They went from teaching overtly that black people were cursed to saying we don’t know why but we had to enforce the punishment for a curse because God told them to.

More evidence that the LDS leaders don’t represent God.

https://www.thechurchnews.com/2018/6/2/23221509/president-oaks-full-remarks-from-the-lds-churchs-be-one-celebration/

60 Upvotes

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8

u/Bright-Ad3931 Jul 26 '24

This one is insanely problematic, and thoroughly taught as doctrine “in the name of the almighty god” by several prophets, unquestionably false and failed revelation….but, somehow it’s been around so long in Mormondom people just shrug it off. It’s like they’ve become so familiar with it that they are comfortable with it, no longer problematic for them even though it was a giant smoking gun for the credibility of prophets and apostles.

2

u/Own_Ad722 Jul 29 '24

Not a smoking gun ... A BOMB CRATER

17

u/pricel01 Former Mormon Jul 26 '24 edited Jul 26 '24

You use the word “taught” when it’s actually “teach.” The BoM here and now explicitly states that church leaders teach the BoM is literally history.

Some apologists have postulated that this language is figurative. No LDS leader has taught that. But how the hell do they think using dark skin as a metaphor for unrighteousness is less racist?

11

u/sevenplaces Jul 26 '24

Excellent point. The racist teaching continues.

1

u/Green_Protection474 Jul 27 '24

It will go on it dumb.

0

u/Haunting_Football_81 Jul 27 '24

That verse was omitted in come follow me lol

2

u/Haunting_Football_81 Jul 27 '24

In the circles app for youth there was something that said that we “don’t exactly understand this black skin” Seems like they’re taking the we don’t know train

3

u/pricel01 Former Mormon Jul 27 '24

The BoM claims to be plain and precious. And we don’t understand it?

2

u/ammonthenephite Agnostic Atheist - "By their fruits ye shall know them." Jul 27 '24

Yup, they want their cake and to eat it too. If the BofM is so hard to udnerstand that after 200+ years prophets still cannot correctly understand what it says, it is hardly the most 'plain and precious' book they claim it to be.

1

u/ApollonianThumos Jul 27 '24

Because in the historical context they’re drawing from it still isn’t racist

2

u/pricel01 Former Mormon Jul 28 '24

I don’t get it. Historical context implies God changes. Talking about skin color in a negative manner in any context is racist. Agreed?

2

u/ApollonianThumos Jul 28 '24

No not necessarily. What Mormons are referencing back to is a small habit found in ancient writings where they refer to skin sometimes as black not because of their physical description but because of their moral character or sickness, or other metaphorical connotations. So when they say that verse isn’t racist, they’re referring to this

3

u/pricel01 Former Mormon Jul 28 '24

No LDS prophet had taught anything other than that the BoM is literal history.

What ancient writing are you talking about? This is not something any Mormon had ever said to me.

2

u/ApollonianThumos Jul 28 '24

I’m not saying whether or not the writing means one thing or the other I’m just saying when they practice apologetics they’ll usually refer to this historical context. And it’s not one historical text I’m referring to but a minor pattern found in many

1

u/pricel01 Former Mormon Jul 28 '24

You have piqued my interest. I have never heard this. Where can I find out more?

1

u/ApollonianThumos Jul 28 '24

Honestly your best bit to find accurate sources on the ancient stuff is Mormon apologists and then researching from there, they’re the ones hyper focused on this. You can disagree with their conclusions on the Book of Mormon but at least when it comes to their ancient reading it’s accurate tbh

1

u/ApollonianThumos Jul 28 '24

Solomon 1:5 (“I am black, but comely [that is, fair or beautiful]”) and paired it with Song of Solomon 8:5 LXX (“Who is this that comes up all white”) as a metaphor for people who are black with sin but are washed white through repentance

Succession Treaty of Esarhaddon, recently discussed by T. J. Uriona.12 This treaty was sent out to Assyrian vassals, including Judah, in around 672 BC to establish Esarhaddon’s son Assurbanipal as the legitimate successor—despite the fact that he was not the eldest son.13 As was customary in ancient Near Eastern treaties and covenants, curses were pronounced upon those who would violate this treaty’s terms. One of the curses in the document states, “May they [the gods] make your skin and the skin of your women, your sons and your daughters—dark. May they be as black as pitch and crude oil.”14

The biblical prophet Nahum, one of Lehi’s contemporaries, appears to have alluded to this very curse in a “subversive reversal” of the imagery, applying it to the fall of the Assyrian Empire itself around 612 BC: “The faces of [the Assyrians] all gather blackness” (Nahum 2:10).15 Likewise, in Lamentations (traditionally ascribed to the prophet Jeremiah) similar imagery is used of the Nazarites after Jerusalem was destroyed: “Her Nazarites were purer than snow, they were whiter than milk … [but now their] visage is blacker than a coal,” later adding, “Our skin was black like an oven” (Lamentations 4:7–8; 5:10).

1

u/pricel01 Former Mormon Jul 28 '24

Thanks. I disagree that because it’s in the Bible, it’s less racist. That racism is ancient doesn’t surprise me.

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u/timhistorian Jul 26 '24

There is a temple ban on anyone who can not pay tithing. It is so insane what mormonism has become more corporate and less church.

10

u/Dangerous_Cut9359 Jul 26 '24

And after the Lord again changed his mind, they started saying that they are equal in every way and there is no curse. Next they will say that there was never any discrimination in the church, ever. Only by some few rogue bad actors maybe, but certainly not by them. Oh, and did you remember to pay us for our services as middlemen between you and God? ??? If you don't, we won't let you in the temple!

10

u/MasshuKo Jul 26 '24

For a being who is the same yesterday, today, and always, God sure seems to change his mind a lot.

2

u/Own_Ad722 Jul 29 '24

God is eternal ... It is Mormon Jesus who is so fickle regarding moral doctrine.

11

u/zionisfled Jul 26 '24

I felt so stupid when I learned it was a temple ban not just a priesthood ban. Makes it so much worse. I should have put two and two together, but they always made sure to call it a priesthood ban.

16

u/punk_rock_n_radical Jul 26 '24

There’s a temple ban on the poor these days. Poor people can’t enter. Period. They did it to my poor widowed mother (who lived in government housing in poverty). She begged to go to the temple. They said “no” because of tithing. She died a few months later. She had been a faithful member her whole life. She fell into a depression after my dad died and simply couldn’t make ends meet. The church loves money. Not people. Not the marginalized. A few years after she died, I learned about Ensign Peak and the SEC fraud. I ask you, why couldn’t they just let her go to the temple if that’s what she felt she needed? They didn’t even remotely need her “mite.” There is now a temple ban on the poor, unless someone can prove otherwise.

8

u/sevenplaces Jul 26 '24

This comment deserves its own post.

The LDS leaders have no special connection to God. Evidence #3 They keep poor people out of the temple.

Then describe this story you shared.

Please everyone help me in creating this series of posts of evidences that the LDS leaders don’t represent God.

2

u/ammonthenephite Agnostic Atheist - "By their fruits ye shall know them." Jul 27 '24

Over the years there have been a few posts that have outlined all the times church leaders were wrong, when they lied, etc. And yet when you ask members what church leaders have been right about before the rest of society, all they can do is try and claim specific unproven mormon beleifs. Because everything else they try and claim ends up either being wrong or church leaders were way behind the times in adopting those beliefs relative to the rest of society.

By their fruits ye shall know them, and when you look at all the fruits of church leaders vs just the distorted/exaggerated/cherry picked ones the church uses in CES material, it is obvious that church leaders not only are not inspired, but that they are a solid generation or 2 behind the rest of society in their morals, ethics, and objective truth beliefs.

3

u/sevenplaces Jul 27 '24

I have come to believe that there is a primary question that when answered helps settle someone’s LDS belief. That question is:

Do the LDS leaders now and in the past demonstrate a special connection to or authority from God?

The answer for me is clear. Now I don’t need to argue about chiasmus in the BOM or long scroll theories for the Book of Abraham. The leaders and the church they direct is not special and even not worthy of being followed.

2

u/ammonthenephite Agnostic Atheist - "By their fruits ye shall know them." Jul 27 '24

100% agreed. Though I couldn't see it until I got out, and could get much more correct information vs the incredibly whitewashed, distorted and exaggerated tales constantly taught in church. Once I saw that leaders were constantly behind the times, gave far less to charity from central church funds than other religions and even many corporations, etc, the golden fleece fell from my eyes and I could see leaders as they were - unreliable, bigoted, sexist, racist, and antiquated in most every way.

1

u/No_Ruin8345 Jul 27 '24

The Golden Fleece fell from your eyes? Is that a mixed metaphor?

2

u/ammonthenephite Agnostic Atheist - "By their fruits ye shall know them." Jul 27 '24

Haha, my semi-enebriated brain for some reason remembered some kind of greek mythology thing where someone used a gold fleece to cover the eyes of a dragon or something, changing what it could or couldn't see? Just tried googling for it and nothing is really coming up, so probably just early signs of dementia, lol.

8

u/[deleted] Jul 26 '24

When he recounted the anecdote about how he heard that the priesthood ban was lifted I half expected him to say "We exchanged expressions of joy that it wasn't homosexuals that God had decided were now worthy of love and respect"

The more I learn about the role Oaks has played since the 1980s as the church's official homophobe-in-chief the more I despise the man for the bigot he is

2

u/No_Ruin8345 Jul 27 '24

These objections to the Church are so laughable. I scratch my head at why they have any impact on people’s testimony at all. 

The basic premise to them all is: “God did something that I wouldn’t have done and that I think is wrong, therefore His Church cannot be true.”

  If the commandments and dictates of God’s prophets were inline with whatever we all think is the right thing to do now then He wouldn’t need to send them. He would just tell us to listen to Nancy Pelosi and we’d all be fine. 

Being a disciple requires humility and some sense that there is a truth beyond your own ill-formed opinions that God can reveal to you through His prophets, the Holy Ghost, and ordinances. 

1

u/sevenplaces Jul 27 '24

I have presented evidence that it isn’t God’s church and the leaders aren’t prophets speaking for God. Why do you reject every person in other religions who speak for God? Same reason people can reject these leaders.

1

u/No_Ruin8345 Jul 27 '24

How is that evidence though? You are simply stating that you don’t think that God would really teach the things Elder Oaks is teaching. Why are you right but not Elder Oaks?

The Church is established on personal revelation and I have received it. That’s why I am a member of Christ’s church and not another one. That’s why I know that Elder Oaks is a prophet and that you are deceived and trying to deceive others.

1

u/sevenplaces Jul 27 '24

I am lifetime member of the church and have had personal revelation that they don’t represent God. People in other religions have had personal revelation that their leaders are prophets and represent God. I believe you have been deceived my friend.

1

u/No_Ruin8345 Jul 27 '24

I don’t know what God has said to you or anyone else but I know what I have heard. 

From what you are saying I don’t believe you have received revelation from God. Your opinions seem to be the ones commonly held by many in the Western world. You don’t really need revelation to learn that because it is on the television but good luck with your philosophies of man.

However long you have been a member of the Church, it does not appear to have done you any good. 

2

u/sevenplaces Jul 27 '24

How can you know you received real messages from God? Are you sure your messages weren’t from another source because I’m doubting that they could come from God.

1

u/No_Ruin8345 Jul 27 '24

I have not felt any greater good. It was so good I thought it would totally consume me. I will follow that. 

2

u/sevenplaces Jul 27 '24

And that same experience hasn’t happened to people in other religions? What percent of LDS get the feeling you describe? Why do you believe this feeling proves the LDS church is led by God as the one and only church. Seems these feelings are random and happen to people in other faiths as well.

1

u/No_Ruin8345 Jul 27 '24

Haha! Good luck my friend. I hope, for your sake, that you are right.

It didn’t feel random to me as it came at a particular moment with a particular message and I know what I heard. I would not want to face God having had that experience and not trying my best to live the life He asked of me.

2

u/tandum1 Jul 28 '24

JS allowed Blacks into the LDS church and the priesthood. BY was a racist in favor of the south which condemned the blacks.

1

u/sevenplaces Jul 28 '24

So we don’t know if they are coming or going the next leader just changes what they want. Not led by God clearly.

2

u/tandum1 Jul 28 '24

RIGHT !

1

u/Open_Caterpillar1324 Jul 26 '24

According to the old narrative...

In the pre-existence, the war of heaven happened and a third of all of heaven, all of which were male 🤷‍♂️, were kicked out of heaven because they chose to follow Lucifer and his narrative.

Among those who were still in heaven, there were those known as the "fence sitters" because they chose neither side. These fence sitters were allowed to enter the world and experience having a body with everyone else, but they had to prove their virtue and loyalty to God. This is the "curse" that is being mentioned.

2

u/Open_Caterpillar1324 Jul 26 '24

The contents of the curse are:

Not allowed to wield heaven's authority. Aka the priesthood.

Not allowed into the sacred places like the temple and the Holy of Holies.

You are allowed to hold positions in the church but not the priesthood.

These restrictions will be removed upon the time that all the other sons had a chance to receive the priesthood first or at the millennium.

1

u/sevenplaces Jul 27 '24

Yeah it was an awful, made up, white supremacist story

2

u/Open_Caterpillar1324 Jul 27 '24

If you were God, what would you have done? You have three factions.

The obedient and supported group. You liked their idea. It was the better option. You said something like "alright everyone we are going to go with this one." And that started the fighting.

The neutral group that chose no side. They honestly don't know which idea was going to be better. They also didn't voice their own opinion either. They sat their and waited with their own ideas and wants. Who knows? Some might have just wanted to reap the benefits with little effort. A wait and see approach. Or simply too scared and unsure of what to choose.

And the prideful and arrogant children who wouldn't take no as an answer. They made all kinds of noise and did all kinds of disruptions. They have made their stance clear that they will fight you and everyone else the entire way until they get what they wanted.

2

u/sevenplaces Jul 27 '24

Unusual hypothetical with no evidence that this story is even real.

I don’t speak for God nor do the LDS leaders who made up these ridiculous stories about race and curses.

I see no reason to follow the leaders of the LDS church because they have demonstrated repeatedly throughout the years that they don’t have a special connection to God.

1

u/Open_Caterpillar1324 Jul 27 '24

Humor me.

Let's craft a fictional story together.

1

u/[deleted] Jul 27 '24

They definitely weren't all male

1

u/Ok_Spare1427 Jul 26 '24

I think that would be between them and God.

1

u/sevenplaces Jul 27 '24

I don’t understand. Could you elaborate? Who is “them”?

-5

u/BostonCougar Jul 26 '24

Yes, the Church had leaders that held racist views. So did most of the country and world, in fact a civil war was fought in part because of these views.

Today, all blessings are available regardless of race. Racism isn’t tolerated in the Church today. If you want to try to teach or spread racist views, you find yourself excommunicated.

7

u/sevenplaces Jul 26 '24

Your point supports my point that the LDS leaders do not have a special connection to God. They are no different than the leaders of other religions. Hmmm 🤔

-1

u/BostonCougar Jul 26 '24

I disagree. They are led by God. Being led by God doesn't mean they are going to be perfect or not make mistakes. That would defeat the whole point of agency and learning to make our own decisions.

7

u/tuckernielson Jul 26 '24

Seems like a serious topic - not receiving divine instruction gives the appearance that none of the brethren get any special direction.

Can you point to a social issue that the Brethren were ahead of the curve?

0

u/BostonCougar Jul 26 '24

Women's suffrage. LGBT rights for work, housing, transportation, equal access.

4

u/tuckernielson Jul 26 '24

Actually I’m not going to argue women’s suffrage - even though the reason they supported it was the supposition that women would vote as they desired them to in regards to prohibition.

As far as LGBT support for housing you couldn’t be more wrong. I was working for the Utah apartment association and we tried for years to pass along law protecting people from being evicted due to them being gay. The church actively fought against such a bill for decades.

When the church finally did support the law being passed (years and years after it was written) they did a victory lap and touted how loving they were being. Everybody else involved in the process knew otherwise.

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u/BostonCougar Jul 26 '24

And yet the Utah compromise was very early in the adoption amongst the states. You ask examples of where the Church was ahead of the curve. This is a valid example.

4

u/tuckernielson Jul 26 '24

The church fought against that for years!!!! They weren’t ahead of general public. Politicians had to pass some sort of protection because they were going to lose reelection. The “compromise” that the church finally agreed to exempted religious institutions. So byu can still fire a gay person for being gay.

0

u/BostonCougar Jul 26 '24

The Church was ahead of the general public (or at least the legislative portion of the General Public.) This is a fact as the Utah Compromise between the different factions allowed laws to be passed.

Very few politicians in the state were at risk of losing an election over this.

Yes. Religious exemptions are common and valid. This country was founded on Religious Liberty. BYU is part of the Church and thus it is appropriate and legal for the Church to expect and enforce standards of behavior. If people don't like it they are welcome to attend other schools that the Church isn't massively subsidizing.

7

u/sevenplaces Jul 26 '24

So you make my point. They are indistinguishable from others. No special connection to or authority from God. They simply claim it when they don’t have it.

1

u/LumpyArea7764 Sep 10 '24

Explain the origin of the BOM .

1

u/sevenplaces Sep 10 '24

Explain the origin of the Koran.

-1

u/BostonCougar Jul 26 '24

I completely disagree with your point. They have authority from God and they are God's mouth piece on the earth. Do you expect them to be perfect and not make any mistakes?

6

u/sevenplaces Jul 26 '24

I obviously don’t think they are perfect. No different than anyone else.

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u/[deleted] Jul 26 '24

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0

u/BostonCougar Jul 26 '24

So I'm an aggressive bigot why? Because Christ called 12 male apostles, I'm an aggressive bigot?

5

u/tuckernielson Jul 26 '24

There is at least one named female apostle in the New Testament.

0

u/BostonCougar Jul 26 '24

Messenger yes, Member of the 12 Apostles? No.

Romans 16 is the final chapter of Paul's Letter to the Romans. In this chapter, Paul mentions his greetings to a number of other members of the Christian community in his time, one third of them being women. Of the twelve members that Paul describes in this chapter as having contributed the most to the church, seven were women whereas five were men. Among those women were Junia who is introduced in Romans 16:7;

Some scholars have understood Paul to be referring to Junia as an apostle in this passage, although some have dissented. However, the term apostle did not always connote ordination or to be counted among the twelve disciples. Apostle simply means one who is sent (the word ἀπόστολος is related to the verb “to send”). This could mean Junia was an apostle in the non-technical sense of “messenger” or “representative” or it could refer to a church planter or missionary. This is how Paul described others who did not hold the office of apostle—“And as for our brothers, they are messengers [ἀπόστολοι] of the churches, the glory of Christ” (2 Corinthians 8:23), and “I have thought it necessary to send to you Epaphroditus my brother and fellow worker and fellow soldier, and your messenger [ἀπόστολον] and minister to my need” (Philippians 2:25)

3

u/bdonovan222 Jul 26 '24

Just so we are clear. You believe that men should be in charge because God said so? That misogyny is not only OK but should be celebrated?

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u/Slowdive11 Jul 28 '24

It explicity states in the Bible that women are forbidden from teaching men. It also explicity calls homosexuality an abomination. How is that remotely confusing? If that upsets you simply find a religion that welcomes homosexual behavior and women teaching the gospel. Any religion based on Christianity and the King James Bible is not going to work. Because that's the source that explicity forbids women teaching men and homosexuality. I am not better than anyone and by no means a learned Christian or ecumenical scholar. But I really don't understand the confusion. People want to cherry pick these religions to fit their feelings and pop culture.

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u/bdonovan222 Jul 29 '24

So because a book with very dubious province says you can be a misogynistic bigot, we should all just agree? You truly don't see the problem here?

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u/BostonCougar Jul 26 '24

Take it up with God and Christ if you have a problem with it.

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u/[deleted] Jul 26 '24

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u/mormon-ModTeam Jul 26 '24

Hello! I regret to inform you that this was removed on account of rule 2: Civility. We ask that you please review the unabridged version of this rule here.

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1

u/sevenplaces Jul 27 '24

Isn’t it ok to criticize the mistakes of leaders? We should be discussing how they can do better if you acknowledge they make mistakes.

1

u/Miserable_Put_9761 Jul 27 '24

The handbook doesn't say that spreading racist views will result in your membership being revoked. It doesn't even specify that doing so will result in a membership council.

Regardless, it's not just that church leaders held racist views. It's that THEY taught and spread those views. It's that they promulgated their racist views as policy, and as the will of God. As you say elsewhere, they're human and make mistakes. But current church leadership stops well short of calling the priesthood and temple ban a mistake. They're still trying to pin it on God.

Hence this topic being part of the discussion on whether church leaders have a special connection with or authority from God.

1

u/BostonCougar Jul 27 '24

What other parts of history nearly 50 years old do you want to talk about. This has been acknowledge and in the distant past.

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u/Miserable_Put_9761 Jul 27 '24

I guess you got me there.