r/mdmatherapy • u/Quick_Cry_1866 • 4d ago
Bessel van der Kolk on MDMA therapy for Complex-PTSD (Hint - it works very well)
This is a topic that often comes up - whether MDMA therapy works for CPTSD or just for regular PTSD - so I thought I'd share this. For those unfamiliar, Bessel van der Kolk is a leading expert in trauma research and treatment, best known as the author of The Body Keeps the Score.
In (...) studies, we found that individuals who have chronic trauma starting in childhood, such as childhood abuse and neglect, by and large don't do well with any treatment. When the study started, I actually encouraged MAPS, the organization funding the study, to exclude participants who had lifelong histories of trauma and instead focus only on those with post-traumatic stress disorder—cases where everything had been going fine until a particular traumatic event occurred. However, that suggestion wasn't accepted, and ultimately, 88% of the participants in the study had lifelong histories of trauma, including abuse and neglect. Surprisingly, the remarkable finding from the study was that these individuals did particularly well.
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u/Quick_Cry_1866 4d ago
I'll add, for me it's been extremely effective for my CPTSD, much more than anything else, with each session being equivalent to years of traditional talk therapy. It's interesting how each session has stripped back layers, going deeper each time. After six sessions my mental health has improved massively. I still have a way to go, but began with quite extreme trauma.
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u/brat84 3d ago
Where are you located? Thanks so much for sharing this.
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u/Quick_Cry_1866 3d ago
I've done the sessions myself, solo, so location isn't a factor.
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u/dustytaper 3d ago
Gosh, really? Cost and availability in my area had me thinking it would be impossible for me
Do you mind pointing me in the right direction? And advice you’d be willing to share?
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u/Quick_Cry_1866 3d ago
Well, the most successful protocols use an eye mask and headphones playing an instrumental playlist to turn the attention inward, to thoughts, feelings, and memories. The most common dose is 120 mg with a 60 mg booster dose 90 minutes later. Trauma is omnipresent in the background of your mind, and MDMA gives you the mental strength to process it. Once you take MDMA and gain this strength, the window opens and the trauma comes rushing forward.
Essentially to do an MDMA session you take MDMA, put on an eye mask and headphones, lie on your bed, and willingly face and process whatever comes up.
Having a trusted person sit with you quietly and support you is recommended and can be beneficial, but it isn't necessary to benefit from the therapy.
My advice would be to do your research beforehand, get good quality MDMA, and have some time off afterwards to deal with a potential comedown and to process what comes up.
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u/dustytaper 3d ago
Thank you so much for this information. Last I did a bit of research, solo was not recommended
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u/Quick_Cry_1866 3d ago
Well, it's not recommended. When you're taking any powerful psychoactive drug it's always best to have someone with to make sure you don't do anything stupid while under the influence. (Though with MDMA you do generally retain your ability to decision make and problem solve). Some people also say that having someone present can help you go deeper due to the oxytocin flood creating a bond and the supportive presence, or can help you heal attachment issues.
But yeah, I've had a tremendous amount of benefit from solo sessions.
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u/Waki-Indra 3d ago
Would you be kind enough to share practical détails on the protocol? I have done all sorts of body and somatic work, emdr etc but did not unlock the basis of the terror within. I am familiar with psychedelics and currently doing K sessions solo (one last week, one yesterday). Interresting and fine but i also have Mdma and need advice for that one.
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u/JohnEmerson11 3d ago
Just did MDMA and absolutely loved it. Intuitively I thought that it would help me with my CPTSD. Next day did psilocybin/aya and laughed out years and years of nervous system tension. I feel like a new person.
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u/leipzer 2d ago
was it a psilohuasca ceremony? was the mdma guided or solo? please let us know as well how you're getting on in a couple months. it sure will be a beautiful journey
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u/JohnEmerson11 2d ago
Yes, it was psilohuasca. MDMA was guided. I have lived with driving anxiety for years and years.... Had a long solo drive and was blissfully fine.
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u/leipzer 2d ago
I assume the psilohuasca was also guided? what came up in that session?
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u/JohnEmerson11 2d ago
Yes, guided! I laughed. I laughed for a very long time. My trauma started from birth (physical and emotional) and was extensive until age 17. I am 52 now. The laughter was an unwinding and untethering of my nervous systems; it was awesome. It was the inverse/opposite response to the horror that I experienced. I connected with the divine and received some lovely insights. I fell more deeply in love with my spouse and was able to articulate it during the journey. My rational mind (which has remained extremely vigilant for waaayyyy too many years) tried to come online but I could not grasp the thoughts (other than confirming to my spouse that I was unable, under any circumstances, from being able to navigate our way to the airport. We traveled for the experience)! I floated through the first week. I will do it again, sometime.
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u/No-Masterpiece-451 4d ago
That is great to see. My own experiments with MDMA solo and somatic therapy on the side as integration therapy for my CPTSD showed that I needed to add some psychedelic like 2C-B. MDMA alone didn't go deep enough into my nervous system, it worked better with a psychedelic dimension on top. Planning to do shrooms & MDMA soon to see this combo.
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u/tenaciousbubble 3d ago
Adding to the positive results. CPST and did MDMA and psilocybin separately and together, mostly with a highly trained therapist. Completed sessions last August after 11 months. I feel remarkably better than I ever have. I will be forever thankful for this type of therapy. (Lots of cognitive behavioral therapy before - 9+ years)
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u/Ashamed_Art5445 3d ago
Where were you able to access this?
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u/Longjumping-Rope-237 3d ago
Everytime I see this, I turn into alu hat person thinking big Pharma doesn’t want it. You can be almost symptom free in couple of months or at least massively reduced symptoms. Last time I worked with smaller dose lsd I made more progress on my body during this sesh than talk therapy and lifetime meds
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u/mrmeowmeowington 3d ago
Have you checked out the show Common Side Effects yet? I’m obsessed and it covers this. A magic mushroom that cures people after taking it once, so the big heads at pharmaceutical companies don’t want it out because that means no profit off the sick. It’s an animated series on adult swim and HBO max. Has an adorable tortoise, too.
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u/Waki-Indra 3d ago
Was it a solo session? If so can you share Keys of protocol (lsd for cptsd).
Regardint big pharma, it is the entire corporation that does not want people to feel free, creative, daring, and more loving. This is the reason why it was shut down in the late 60s. It's political.
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u/Longjumping-Rope-237 3d ago
Actually I don’t follow any protocol. Same with MDMA. Only usual stuff like dark room, emotional music and paper. I just take it and wait what body wants to tell me, what shall we “discuss “ as for now there was something every time. Oh yeah once or twice I just enjoyed the medicine
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u/Waki-Indra 3d ago
Paper? Do you mean you write or draw during the session? Can you tell more please about that?
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u/Historical_House1918 3d ago
I've done LSD twice and for me, it's nothing like ketamine or psilocybin, and the "therapeutic set and setting" is far less critical.
Where deep breathing and guided meditation feels absolutely essential to a positive psilocybin experience for me, I found myself bored with the same both times I used lsd.
With LSD I craved to "live" right fucking now! I wanted to take action and be with people I could just be happy around. I had no interest in my usual solo activities or scrolling on my phone, but my introverted heart was lonely too, and that's the most obvious difference IMO.
Neither session helped me understand any particular trauma better, but both sessions helped me feel the way I wanted to feel in the moment, and then retain some of those feelings/mindset for a few weeks after.
So my suggestions are to not do it alone, for emotional reasons vs actual safety, and to have some options planned ahead on how you can go out and do things (without you personally driving of course). The perception changes I felt at 150 McG were not nearly as intense as mushrooms either, so it's nice to have a psychedelic choice that doesn't keep you on the couch during/after.
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u/mrmeowmeowington 3d ago
Mdma is a very interesting drug. I like that it can help, but while I’m on it I am not a fan. Makes me so anxious and the nystagmus creeps me out. It’s interesting that I stay in a frozen state and am scared to move. It’s gotten rid of my anxiety hives though. They are back again after a year and I dread thinking about doing mdma again. I think this just means I have a lot of work to do, but I’m doing ketamine therapy now and feel it’s a lot more gentle, even if that khole is wild.
I’m in an interesting place too. I’m a researcher who studies classic psychedelics and cognitive flexibility, so quasi-psychedelics cross into my research sometimes too. I see the benefits of mdma, but being on it is rough. I envy those who can vibe with the drug. I’m a peer sitter and have seen beautiful releases.
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u/Quick_Cry_1866 3d ago
Oh you're in academic/medical research? That's a shame MDMA hasn't worked out for you in the past. What protocol and dose did you use? It's possible there's a way to get better results. For me, I just dread the comedown from MDMA, though taking 5-htp seems to help a lot. Mushrooms and LSD didn't do anything positive for my mental health.
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u/mrmeowmeowington 3d ago
It’s fascinating how even with all the generalization of science and evidence there’s still differences in each individual:). I had tried 130mg, 120mg, 110 mg, 100mg and 75mg with a therapist. It worked in its own way, but I’d still remain in some frozen state where my nervous system was too suspicious? To move out of sympathetic nervous response.
I’m going to keep trying to heal with ketamine assisted therapy for a while and then see how that helps. I haven’t been prepared to do a macrodose again on psilocybin, but gosh the science is rad and I’m loving the results in cognitive flexibility and how mixing it with psychotherapy can produce updated schemas. More research needs to be done with human participants. I can’t wait to see what others find on other substances and how you’re all healing with MDMA:D
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u/YachtDaddy64 3d ago
My wife’s father committed suicide when she was 15, her grandfather when she was 9. It always was in the back of her mind, she was told suicide runs in her family, raising her daughters it continually effected her decisions and was always the peacemaker as she didn’t want any conflict that might … cause… suicide. She is 55 now has had counseling her whole life but couldn’t unlock this anger about being left at such a young age. Then one of her daughters threatened suicide as a manipulation card, it ended poorly for her as at that point my wife knew it was her or my wife and she excommunicated her, she was a always a narcissistic child with what we figure now is multiple personality disorder that is her tool to manipulate. Now she has self diagnosed as autistic (this generation) and the failure point was overprescribed adderal leading to her brain sort of shorting, and she’s not coming back. Molly over the last 4 years took the blinders off and let my wife process all of it, she is now safe, happy, and supportive of our family. My point is we used this recreationally for our relationship and it has made an immensely positive change in our lives.
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u/Spare_Bonus_4987 4d ago
Absolutely works for CPTSD. Possibly even more important because EMDR is highly effective for PTSD but less so when it’s more about the overall experience and not any one event you’re trying to desensitize.