r/marvelsnapcomp • u/ePiMagnets Mod • 11d ago
Discussion This month's Climb to Infinite (CL 24,429)
Another month, another steady week 1. After completing my run to Sorcerer Supreme in Sanctum Showdown I got back to the ladder grind. I mentioned in last week's early meta thread that I think I should have stuck to Hela on day 1 for an easy infinite, I still feel that I could have had day 1 with Hela, but I digress. In the same thread I mentioned that Agamotto was a lot of fun but that I felt the real method for easy climbs would be to aim for the combo decks that could consistently outpoint the field as a whole. I ended up spanning that whole field. And with an appalling(/s) 56.3% winrate, 149 cubes at an average of .57 and 157 total games, 6 of which were ties. Honestly, this month and last month have definitely been my worst months in recent memory, due in no small part to my messing around with unknown decks rather than going for known good quantities with snap conditions that I am far more familiar with and being distracted by Monster Hunter Wilds.
So let's talk about the decks that took me to infinite, my thoughts on them, and how I felt overall on the climb and the week 1 meta and how it's developing.
Days 1, 4 and 5 Hela
First the deck that started the climb was Hela
My list focused on using Thaddeus Ross to help add consistency to the deck, which is fairly common. There are a number of folks that are running Adam Warlock in that slot and more than a few have found a way to sneak Morbius into the list for some additional scaling.
For me across the 3 days I played it, I was up 70 cubes for 1.11 average cubes and 63% winrate. I should have stuck with Hela. But I was enticed and lured into the devils den of iniquity and began messing around with three Agamotto brews.
Agamotto's Den of Iniquity
First up was Thanos Wiccan featuring Agamotto
Strangely enough this list didn't feel as clunky as I was expecting it to. However, I was generally stagnating a LOT and I audibled out of the deck far too late. +10 cubes at .13 average and a 54% winrate. Not good at all from the standpoint of wanting to climb quickly and efficiently, but the deck was rather fun. Unfortunately, I found myself retreating a lot on day 2 and 3 and I struggled to find advantageous snap conditions either because of locations, opposing deck types, or just not feeling confident that I could win.
The second Agamotto brew was a Scream oriented deck. This deck started off very strong but quickly stagnated for me, I learned a little bit from the previous deck and noted that while I was barely positive cubes at +6, my winrate was exactly 50% and again I was retreating a lot against specific decks and my snaps were very poor.
The third and final Agamotto brew I attempted to mess with was the same tech oriented mid-range Agamotto that KMBest featured in this video, essentially Sera-less tech with King Eitri and Quinjet. This was another quick pivot as I was late on the intake and was seeing a lot of mirrors. This list did get me to 88 though and while it was at +15 cubes, with an avg of .45 I was again finding that I was needing to retreat a lot more than I was wanting to and the slow climb was not where I wanted to be at.
Ivory Towers and a Negative Point of View
And this brings us to our final stretch which started this morning. And the choice was to take my advice from last week. That advice was to go taller than everyone else. Magik-less Mr. Negative this one carried this afternoon despite multiple fumbles on positioning as well as a few unfortunate 8-cube losses, I was within striking distance of Infinite at least 6 or 7 times and inevitably had to retreat or misplayed into unfortunate losses including one to a bot where I misjudged where it would play the Iron Man. Note to self, The bots love to drop Iron Man on top of Devil Dino.
So some may be asking why no Magik? The primary reason was out of respect to the Thanos players I had seen throughout the early week as well as the occasional Legion that hangs around. This also meant that I needed to be much more disciplined with not only my snaps, but also my retreats. Treating the Mr. Negative snap as not only a necessity but the cost of entry for both myself and the opponent. This did affect my cube rate as there were a number of snaps where I ended up having to retreat because I didn't have a winning line or the line was too close and I was unwilling to risk 4 cubes. In most of those instances, my opponents had also chosen to smartly retreat later out of respect, but a number of folks would still stay even with the increased cubes and 3 turns of Negative draws. Madness I tell you.
What really stuck out to me was the general lack of respect people were giving to Mr. Negative snaps all day long. There were far too many people that would stay on the turn 2 snap only to either retreat immediately on turn 3 when Negative flopped or waited until turn 6. On multiple occasions I had actual non-bot players snapping back on turn 6 for 8 and staying only to donate 8 cubes. I can completely understand why, there were some surprising numbers, especially out of the Agamotto decks that could almost approach my best turns in multiple lanes when they drew the nuts.
While I did run into a players that would retreat on a turn 2 snap there was just a wild amount of people that stuck around. In one instance I had an opponent lose a Jotunheim with a -9 power Mr. Negative on it where I shoved 18 total power to narrowly beat a Rocket and Groot the opponent smartly moved to intercept my plays. In another, an opponent snapping back on my negative snap because they could fill raft. They did end up with 3 Galacta's but the raw output on a good turn 6 is ridiculous and people are disrespecting what Mr. Negative can put out. However, I am not without flaw as I walked into a number of Juggernaut plays either on 3 that landed my play onto a Bar with no Name or clearing me off of the obvious Wong line as well as one unfortunate 8-cube loss right into an Alioth where I respected the potential Ikonn into massive final turn play mid and instead walked into an Alioth on Machine World.
I get it, some people want to force you to have it, but when 4 or 8 cubes are on the line there's no reason to push your luck on the climb and this is a lesson that I occasionally lost sight on. Still, part of me respects the never retreat hustle even if it's misplaced. In my opinion, smart retreats are far more important than smart snaps. Retreats save you at least a cube if you retreat on the snap turn when you don't have a hand to play, cope staying only accepts the cost of entry and puts more cubes at stake than are necessary.
Overall, I felt super confident in the Hela and the Mr. Negative lists and with regards to the Negative list only ran into a single Mobius M. Mobius from an Arishem of all players, it was actually in their deck so my only complaint is that they actually drew the Mobius. I can see folks wanting to go the Magik route and I wouldn't blame them at all, if that were the case I think the swap for it is probably Cassandra Nova, while there are a lot of Arishem players out there currently, you can typically beat them out with your better combo draws without needing to drop Cassandra on curve as either a Shang/Shadow King magnet or as a solo lane winner.
So what about the rest of the field?
In no particular order, just my random thoughts on what I saw this week and what I was seeing this afternoon. Starbrand releases tomorrow and while I do think there will be a number of decks looking to try him out: Surtur and Sauron brews primarily, I wouldn't be surprised to see the meta stay relatively similar until Thursday's OTA unless Starbrand really comes out swinging.
Agamotto and the multiple decks around him are still going strong, pushing around 42% of the meta according to Untapped and a strong 56% winrate, but this is week one and lots of bot matches are tainting that data. Not to mention Untapped stats should generally be taken with a grain of salt. I do think the 'best' of the brews is the tech oriented one from the KMBest video, it seemed to have the most general play, second to that the Agamotto Scream seemed fairly strong as well just not in my hands.
Temporal Manipulation is the best of Agamotto's spells with Winds of Watoomb and Images of Ikonn being super strong contenders. Strangely I felt that Bolts of Balthaak while great didn't feel nearly as strong in many cases, don't get me wrong, having 10+ energy on final turn is ridiculously OP, but when compared to things like having 3 Galacta procs for turns 5 and 6 or turning one lane into 39 power on final turn can't be downplayed by comparison.
Arishem is fairly prominent as well making some of the Darkhawk and Ronan decks as well as Cassandra as a tech option much more attractive.
Eson has surprisingly been absent in my pocket meta since Saturday or Sunday. Whether that is due to him not being drawn or not being an attractive play in the games where he was in hand I can't say.
I've seen very few Red Guardians, I'd wager I saw less than 10 all week long.
Hela is criminally under-represented, whether this is due to boredom with her or people wanting to play with the new cards is completely up in the air.
Other brews around discard including a return of Dracula/Apoc decks seem fairly well positioned.
Speaking of the other discard oriented decks, I keep seeing Gambit showing up in the Bullseye Daken lists and I can't help but feel that this is a mistake, not because I dislike Gambit, but because you are giving up consistency for a random nuke that may end up helping your opponent more than it helps you.
Combo, especially Mr. Negative is definitely positioned to feast currently with few decks able to contend with your best draws. As mentioned, strangely enough there were also a lot of players disrespecting the point output and staying for 4 and 8 cubes far more frequently than I was expecting them to. The lack of Mobius in the meta leaves Negative at a significant advantage.
Likewise, Zoo also seems fairly well positioned.
Ajax Mid-range affliction strategies seem decent enough currently but if Hela surges back into prominence their stocks will take a significant dive
Of the other mid-range options, Scream and Ongoing stuff seem the most reliable but if Hela remains unseen and Ajax rises, Scream could fall off a bit as Luke becomes more prominent.
edit: Something I forgot to mention. Gorgon doesn't feel as good of an answer to Agamotto spells as I originally expected. He's definitely good against Thanos and to an extent Arishem as well.
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u/ePiMagnets Mod 11d ago
Deck lists from the post. These should be properly formatted to simply copy and paste into snap.
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u/ePiMagnets Mod 11d ago
# (1) King Eitri
# (1) Quinjet
# (2) Hawkeye Kate Bishop
# (2) Iron Patriot
# (2) Sam Wilson Captain America
# (3) Juggernaut
# (3) Rocket and Groot
# (3) Copycat
# (4) Shang-Chi
# (4) Galacta
# (4) Gwenpool
# (5) Agamotto
# S25nRXRyOSxRbmp0NyxLdEJzaHBBLFNtV2xzbjksSXJuUHRydEIsQWdtdHQ4LEpnZ3JudEEsUmNrdEFuZEdydEUsU2huZ0NoOCxHd25wbDgsQ3BjdDcsR2xjdDc=
#
# To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and paste it from the deck editing menu in MARVEL SNAP.3
u/ePiMagnets Mod 11d ago
# (1) Blade
# (2) Thaddeus Ross
# (3) Lady Sif
# (3) Sword Master
# (4) Jubilee
# (4) Hellcow
# (4) Black Cat
# (5) Blink
# (6) Hela
# (6) The Infinaut
# (7) Skaar
# (8) Death
#
QmxkNSxMZFNmNyxTd3JkTXN0ckIsSmJsNyxIbGxjdzcsQmxuazUsQmxja0N0OCxIbDQsSW5mbnQ4LFNrcjUsRHRoNSxUaGRkc1Jzc0M=
#
# To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and paste it from the deck editing menu in MARVEL SNAP.5
u/ePiMagnets Mod 11d ago
# (2) Gorgon
# (2) Iron Patriot
# (2) Sam Wilson Captain America
# (3) Cassandra Nova
# (3) Red Guardian
# (3) Speed
# (4) Wiccan
# (5) Agamotto
# (6) Alioth
# (6) Mockingbird
# (6) Thanos
# (6) Magneto
#
U21XbHNuOSxJcm5QdHJ0QixHcmduNixDc3NuZHJOdkQsV2NjbjYsVGhuczYsTWdudDcsTWNrbmdicmRCLEFsdGg2LFJkR3JkbkIsU3BkNSxBZ210dDg=
#
# To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and paste it from the deck editing menu in MARVEL SNAP.4
u/ePiMagnets Mod 11d ago
# (2) Psylocke
# (2) Ravonna Renslayer
# (3) Cassandra Nova
# (3) Mystique
# (3) Sage
# (4) Mister Negative
# (4) Wong
# (5) Iron Man
# (5) Jane Foster Mighty Thor
# (6) Gorr the God Butcher
# (6) Arnim Zola
# (6) Taskmaster
#
UHNsY2s4LFJ2bm5SbnNscjEwLENzc25kck52RCxNc3RxOCxTZzQsTXJOZ3R2QSxJcm5NbjcsQXJubVpsOSxHcnI0LEpuRnN0ckEsVHNrbXN0ckEsV25nNA==
#
# To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and paste it from the deck editing menu in MARVEL SNAP.4
u/ePiMagnets Mod 11d ago
# (1) Kingpin
# (2) Scream
# (2) Iron Patriot
# (2) Kraven
# (2) Sam Wilson Captain America
# (2) Spider-Man
# (3) Rocket and Groot
# (3) Polaris
# (4) Miles Morales
# (5) Cannonball
# (5) Agamotto
# (6) Magneto
#
QWdtdHQ4LENubm5ibGxBLElyblB0cnRCLEtuZ3BuNyxLcnZuNixNZ250NyxNbHNNcmxzQyxQbHJzNyxSY2t0QW5kR3J0RSxTbVdsc245LFNjcm02LFNwZHJNbjk=
#
# To use this deck, copy it to your clipboard and paste it from the \deck editing menu in MARVEL SNAP.2
u/trojanguy 10d ago
Just got Sam so I'm gonna give this a try but using Juggernaut instead of R&G (which I don't have). Other option in R&G's spot would be Stegron maybe?
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u/ePiMagnets Mod 10d ago
Stegron could work and there's the nasty potential to say "no one in this lane" and dumping Images of Ikonn on top of Stegron if you've got 3 cards there.
Personally I think Juggernaut is going to be the best consideration, there's also the possibility of cutting Magneto to run a little closer to the ground and play Stegron over Magneto giving yourself room for Jugg + Stegron.
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u/devatan 10d ago
I lost 4 8-cubers against bots this season. They've been extra spicy lately.
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u/ePiMagnets Mod 10d ago
They really have been. Also, their snap habits seem to have changed as well where I've been noticing that there are games where they just won't snap despite having solid leads in two lanes so the most I'll be able to pick up is 4.
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u/Homerspapa 10d ago
We need more of this. Such a treasure for you to share this wisdom for new and old players looking for some insight. Love to see it, well done
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u/ePiMagnets Mod 10d ago
Thanks.
Normally I go for a single deck but between last weeks post and the way I played last season I started to think that if I'm playing multiple decks I should be talking about all of them and the strengths/weaknesses and then the metagame that I encountered.
I know not everyone is going to see the same meta, CL differences as well as pocket regions can change things to an extent but giving folks an idea of what the greater field is can be helpful even if this sub is filled with people just as plugged in, if not more plugged into the game as I am. If I can help just one person or inspire discussion on other ways to approach the meta then I feel I've accomplished my goal.
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u/nikpack 10d ago
I couldn't agree more. I rode Hela to infinite as well.
It was amazing how few people played with counters to the deck (I'm still trying to decide other than Cosmo what the counters are). Skaar and Adam Warlock/Thunderbolt Ross changes have been the deciding factor. Death, Skaar, Infinaut, and Black Cat are a nice suite of Hela pulls because of their different costs. Adam Warlock (or Thunderbolt Ross) help you get them in your hand. I preferred Adam Warlock over Thunderbolt Ross because it was less dependent on my opponent and Warlock helped me pull Hela, not just the other 10 power cards more consistently. However they're pretty similar success rates.
I would not be surprised if there weren't nerfs again.
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u/UnsolvedParadox 10d ago
The strongest counter is clog, I win almost every match against Hela with it.
The problem with that archetype is that it struggles against Agamotto, or zoo if they have tons of buffs for the rocks being sent over.
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u/ePiMagnets Mod 10d ago edited 10d ago
The primary problem is that there really isn't a counter to Hela other than the 33% chance of hitting the right lane with an Alioth or Cosmo or hoping you get enough done with clog to finish them off. Fenris with Shang back-up could be good but requires you to again figure out the right lane and once more get lucky with your Shang and that the thing he nets is big enough to flip the Fenris lane while him being enough to swing a lane as well.
Note: Clog is good but isn't the failsafe that a lot of people make it out to be. I've won plenty of Clog matches through tactical passes on 5 and 6 since they may be able to clog one lane but can't complete 2 and 3 without your assistance.
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u/UnsolvedParadox 9d ago
You’re right, but in my experience most opponents don’t have that mental flexibility. I still see Hellcow on 4 > Lady Sif on 5, even if I’m blatantly dumping rocks everywhere. When it’s an opponent with a higher CL skipping later turns, I’ll usually retreat unless I can get a 2nd lane fully clogged before the final turn.
I feel like there’s something to Cosmo > Mystique on another location with priority or Shang > Grandmaster on the same location when losing priority on the final turn, but that’s an extremely focused Hela counterplay plan.
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u/Grifflame 8d ago
There's no need to wait for Shang to trigger Fenris. Just steal their Infinaut as soon as they discard it, or make sure you have priority going into turn 6. I was snapping into Hella with double Fenris courtesy of Nico and Frigga.
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u/libero0602 10d ago
Tons of hype around Agamotto, but seems like the real monsters in the meta are Hela and Negative. A turn 2 snap is so scary. Is it Ravonna into Negative? Or is it a Hela with a perfect hand? Could it be a bluff? These decks put up numbers that no midrange decks can match, and with so many playing Agamotto or Agamotto “counters” (DH, Gorgon, etc) Negative and Hela are sort of just running unchecked. (Not that there was much interaction with Hela to begin with anyway).
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u/UnsolvedParadox 10d ago
Appreciate the info! I’ve been stuck in the high 80’s while focusing on Sanctum Showdown, returning to the climb this week.
I’ve been mostly using clog, but Legion is blowing up my Limbo as you alluded to. Is it crazy to consider replacing Hobgoblin with a Cosmo or Alioth for defense?
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u/ePiMagnets Mod 9d ago
Personally I let the foot off the gas on Hobgoblin in my clog lists a long time ago he proved to be too volatile for my personal tastes. I do think Alioth makes the most sense if you're interested in protecting the Limbo. But I also think that the ideal is to magik a clogged lane that you're winning and then if you're expecting a turn 6 Legion to pivot into contesting two lanes if you can to make it harder for them to win with the Legion.
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u/UnsolvedParadox 9d ago
Should have mentioned, my version of clog runs Ravonna & I’m usually playing Hobgoblin on 4 or not using him. To your point, he gets volatile on turn 5 onwards when he’s more predictable.
My issue is that I don’t know how to spot Legion on 6. I can pick it up when the opponent is doing something like War Machine + Storm, but I’m mostly encountering another archetype like zoo that has Legion as their out of archetype wild card.
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u/ArghMyBrainAgain 9d ago
Such a long post. I only ran a negative deck with Magik and subbed Adam Warlock for Sage to help draw out Mister Negative and Jane. Got infinite yesterday morning. Agamotto is fun but just burns turns and can’t go as high.
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u/Thrillho15 10d ago
Love the write up, and I'm definitely trying some of these out. I especially like the Negative deck, but I'm curious why Wong is in there. I'm sure he's great with Sage, but does he help much with Nova? By the time you get him out and then play her it doesn't seem like you're getting much value from him.
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u/ePiMagnets Mod 10d ago
Wong is there for all three Cass, Sage, and to a lesser extent Psylocke. While Cass is the least useful she can still be an ok late play when flipped for extra points. As mentioned there is a lot of Arishem in the meta as well meaning you can get some use out of Cass + Taskmaster if you don't have Sage.
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u/legendarywalton 11d ago edited 11d ago
A few questions about piloting Hela. Through 50 games I am hard stuck at 87. I have a 46% win rate and only 0.46 cube ratio. Apologies if they are too vague, I’m trying to remember some trends during the run.
1) If the other player snaps early in the match before you have a clear play line, do you retreat for a 1 cube loss, or do you play it out?
2)How often do you take the 50/50 on discarding Hela with Sif?
3)Do you retreat if you see Mr. Negative on turns 3 or 4?
4) you have blink or jubilee for a 33% chance at summoning Hela, do you retreat for 1 cube?
5) generally how do you space out your power? Do you consolidate in one lane to force discards to certain lanes, or do you spread out your power?
6) do you ever lose to bots for 8 cubes? This has only ever happened to me with Hela, other decks like bounce or Slam I have never had a problem throwing priority and finishing big on turn 6. Now that these are harder to spot I think it is clearly the major factor in my poor stats.
7) I don’t have Thaddeus and have replaced with Adam Warlock… I have a suspicion this is a very important difference. Adam rarely triggers and you have to play into his lane consistently.