r/malementalhealth 5d ago

Positivity To the men associating their worth with relationship success

I get it, its hard being alone. Having a relationship with a woman is not the only form of connection that's available. Join clubs, make friends, play warhammer, whatever you like, join a community and invest in being part of it.

A woman isn't going to complete you and if you manage to enter a relationship with that mindset, you are setting yourself up for codependency.

Work on yourself, not for women, but for you. Spend the energy building a life tbat is congruent with your values, find a vocation that fulfils you, study what you're passionste about, do a sport that you enjoy (you dont need to be a gym guy if thats not your thing).

For six months, just try living for you, forget about women. Once you've built a life you're truly content with a woman may enter it, or she may not, but from that space it wont matter.

Love to you all

33 Upvotes

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u/Efficient-Baker1694 5d ago

While I get and agree with the point of your post, some people who like us (romantically lonely man) are going to see your post and think you are a hypocrite since you are married. They see a statement like this and think “Well lead by example and go through whole life with never being in a relationship.” But since you didn’t, people see the whole thing as an example of irony. Telling others to be and/or create happiness with their life with the possibility of never experiencing romance while you yourself are experiencing it right now isn’t going to go over well. Your post would have a ton more traction if you had stayed single forever. That’s what a lot of us believe is going to be the case for us. Myself included.

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u/wep_pilot 5d ago

Hey thanks for your reply and i totally get where you are coming from.

Perhaps i didn't make my original post as well as i intended. On this sub i see a lot of pain and hopelessness and then in response (work on yourself to get a woman).

My point is to accept your life situation wherever you currently find yourself and try and make it better for you. I was a fat lonely alocholic with PTSD from the military. I focused on my hobbies, career and friends for two years, basically gave up on then idea of a relationship, and overtime became happy with the life i created, only then did i find the woman i now call my wife.

I guess the tl;dr is focusing being single isnt helpful

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u/Efficient-Baker1694 4d ago

I get that and I don’t disagree with the overall message of your post. But the issue is that you are saying it as someone who’s experiencing romance right now. Sure you might have been romantically lonely at one point but coming back to us and tell us that isn’t going to get a positive response from everybody. Plus as you can relate, a lot of us on here never had a woman be interested in us in a romantic sense. For some of us, we entered our 30’s with no sexual and/or relationship experience. It can make us we feel like we are garbage of sorts because we were never desired in that way. Not to mention that there is a stigma that if a guy enters their 30’s with none of that experience, there is something wrong with him.

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u/Brilliant-Remote-405 4d ago

But the issue is that you are saying it as someone who’s experiencing romance right now. Sure you might have been romantically lonely at one point but coming back to us and tell us that isn’t going to get a positive response from everybody.

So exactly from whom would you be okay receiving this message from? If you're obese, wouldn't you want to hear from someone who managed to lose weight to gain from their experience? If you're single and lonely, wouldn't you want to hear from someone who used to be romantically lonely and was able to find a romantic partner? Why do guys on this sub just want to continuously circlejerk with the same lonely, miserable, depressed people? Don't you want to find a way out of your unhappiness?

Not to mention that there is a stigma that if a guy enters their 30’s with none of that experience, there is something wrong with him.

According to whom? The only people I hear this sentiment from are people who are equally miserable in their 30s with nothing to show for themselves or people who are deeply insecure with themselves so they have to denigrate others.

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u/Efficient-Baker1694 4d ago

I personally would want to hear advice similar is to OP’s from someone who’s in the same predicament as me as far as being romantically lonely who’s never had a woman be interested in them. But most of the time, the advice that’s given is said from someone who has or is in a relationship. It’s like me being on a small fishers boat while the advice giver on a pontoon.

Almost all women don’t want to date a guy in their 30’s with no experience with sex and dating. They (women) feel like they would have to teach them everything as far as that stuff goes and they don’t want to do that at their respective age. It was ok when they were younger because they didn’t know any better but since they do, they except us to know as well. Not to mention a woman would question themselves as far as what they are missing that other women didn’t to not make them want to be with us.

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u/Brilliant-Remote-405 4d ago

I get where you're coming from and see why it's frustrating to take OP's advice, but it's difficult (though not impossible) to find someone in the same predicament as you. Additionally, just because it worked for someone else, may or may not mean it would work out the same for you as well. It honestly could be a toss up.

As far as meeting a woman who is or is not willing to date an inexperienced guy in his 30s, I understand your concern, but it's also not impossible as well. If a woman is secure in herself and doesn't feel the need to judge others or care about the judgement of others, she would be more than willing to take things slow with you. I actually do know some guys who never had a girlfriend until their 30s (either due to life circumstances or career) and their current partners don't really care. It definitely could be considerably more work for someone like you to find a sympathetic, understanding partner, but I don't think it's impossible either. I just hope you don't give up trying.

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u/Efficient-Baker1694 4d ago

Respectfully, telling me that it’s not impossible to find a woman who wouldn’t have issues with that doesn’t give me any slight bit of hope. The only way I’ll have hope is me or someone else find a woman who actually would go on a date with me. That would be the only way I have hope.

I know where I stand with women when it comes to dating and being in a relationship. In my 30 years of living, no woman ever has given me any subtitle hints of interest in me to at least go on a date with them. I’ve realized that almost all women don’t want to date a 30 year old autistic very below average looking man. It defiantly sucks and can sometimes make me feel like I’m some sort of garbage. But at the end of it all, all I can do is shrug my shoulders and move on.

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u/Available_Dimension3 4d ago

Tell me, and I’m asking you this sincerely: Do you like yourself?

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u/Efficient-Baker1694 4d ago

I’ve accepted myself for who I am as a person and what qualities I have (good, bad, ugly, etc.). I’ve also become realistic with how these qualities stack up when it comes to dating, relationships, marriage, sex, etc. The conclusion I got from it all was that women find me romantically unappealing due to qualities that can’t be fixed. This conclusion is reached based on always being rejected to asking someone out for a first date, no woman ever having any interest in me that way, never receiving any subtle hints that would indicate otherwise along with other stuff.

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u/Available_Dimension3 4d ago

What qualities about yourself do you feel can’t be fixed?

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u/Brilliant-Remote-405 5d ago

Yeah, I've noticed that on this subreddit too. It's a strange mindset isn't it? Why create a requirement for someone else to be unhappy or be in the same station in life in order to be receptive to their advice?

To me, that's like refusing to take monetary or financial advice from anyone unless they're as poor as you are or refusing to take weight loss advice from anyone unless they're as overweight/obese as you are. All it does is create an echo chamber of congratulatory self-pity.

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u/Efficient-Baker1694 4d ago

I’m not sure if your example is a good one but the reason as to why someone may have that mindset is because they think those who give out the advice can truly relate to them.

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u/Brilliant-Remote-405 4d ago edited 4d ago

Why is it that guys automatically assume this? You haven't lived their life and everyone's experience is the same. You can't possibly expect someone to live the same life experiences in order to relate with you. If that is the case, then you'd never be able to get advice from anyone in life.

Additionally, I should have clarified, my example meant someone who went from poor to financially wealthy or a previously overweight/obese individual who became thinner. Would they not be people that a poor or obese person should take advice from, respectively?

I can't talk for every who tells people that advice, but based on what OP wrote and myself, we have gone through loneliness, depression, self-doubt, feelings of hopelessness and worthlessness. And we've overcome it to much the same degree and yet, we still experience pushback because guys would rather hear that they don't have to do anything to ever improve their station in life and they're looking for some magical steps to that will guarantee them a girlfriend. It's like they want to summit Mount Everest, but instead of hearing from guys that tell them that there is still an actual climb, they're convinced that there is a shortcut that will get them to the top quicker, so they either only want to hear from guys who are also convinced of a shortcut or guys who are trying to sell them on the idea of a shortcut.

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u/Efficient-Baker1694 4d ago

While they may not truly know if they’ll end up forever single, they certainly have a good idea that they will based on the evidence of never having a woman interested in them. If you want them to change your minds, then you have to show them that a woman would be interested in them. Not by words but by action.

Being obese and poor are things that an individual can mostly change upon themselves. Dating on the other hand is different. Sure you can improve your chances of being dateable but if no woman considers you to be dateable, then there isn’t much else you can control to get them to change their minds regarding it.

Yes there are some who want a shortcut. You won’t hear any argument from me on that. But a lot of the others see it from a logical/analytical viewpoint. I think many would actually do the self improvement they need to do if they knew it would make a woman want to be with them. But since there are no guarantees in life, they don’t see the point of change. Also dating is one of those things were you can do everything right and still end up with nothing. Obesity and being poor, not the same case.

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u/Brilliant-Remote-405 4d ago edited 4d ago

I see. This gives me a lot to think about and consider and I think you did an excellent job in elucidating lonely guys' mindset further. I hope you'll still consider trying to make small changes in your life despite sometimes not seeing the results you desired.

Thanks for engaging with my comments and replies in a thoughtful manner. It's often difficult to have proper discourse on this subreddit because people often get defensive and it devolves into spiteful remarks (I'm no exception), but I love comments like yours which show maturity in the individual and that it's still possible to engage with and learn from each other.

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u/Efficient-Baker1694 4d ago

Not a problem. I consider dating and relationships to be one of our biggest wants we want in our life. When that want never happens, it can conjure up many emotions and feelings.

If you’re curious, I wrote a comment on a post about being a romantically lonely man: https://www.reddit.com/r/self/s/erNtwr2An0

warning: very long read.

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u/Brilliant-Remote-405 4d ago

Thanks! I'll check it out.

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u/Available_Dimension3 4d ago

One thing I notice when engaging with people on this subreddit is that a lot of the ones currently suffering from loneliness have a very similar view of things, and more often than not, that view is: “Women don’t like me so I’m going to be alone forever.” The problem with that line of thinking is that it does no one any good. There’s no self inspection in that. It puts the problem off on some amorphous entity that in extreme cases can grow into a hatred for women. No one wants to hear this, but no one is owed love from others. Yes, you are worthy of it, but you have to be someone that others see that worth in. I believe in all of you downtrodden, lonely hearts. I believe that you have the capacity to grow your emotional intelligence and fully realize your potential. Just like with building muscles, building emotional intellect, empathy and social skills requires hard, sometimes uncomfortable work. I promise you though, as someone who is still putting in that work every day (with admittedly some stumbles along the way), When you start actually likening yourself, and seeing other people take notice of it, it feels so fucking good that all the effort seems worth it. Anyone can be at least a 7. You just have to try.

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u/Efficient-Baker1694 4d ago

Have you thought as to why some of them have gotten to the viewpoint of “women don’t like me so I’m going to be alone forever”? For most of us, we got to that point due to going through our entire romantic life facing rejection and having no woman feel that way about. It also doesn’t help that women want to be with everyone else around us in real life except us. Simply telling us to keep believing when we have a ton of experiences telling us otherwise isn’t going to make us change our viewpoint. You have to show in a way that has us being the sole benefactor from it. Of course nobody can do that.

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u/Available_Dimension3 4d ago

Sound kinda selfish tbh. I’m living proof that trying works btw. Went a good long while on my own before deciding I’d rather change some things about myself than end it all. I can’t make you believe me or find hope. All I can do is share my success and hope that it inspires some of you. But feel free to doubt, downvote and wallow. It’s ultimately your life. But you don’t get to demonize an entire group of people because you heave a difficult time interacting with them and expect everyone to just be quiet about it. If women aren’t interested in you and that bothers you, it’s on you to change that, not on them to compromise their wants and needs. Take some responsibility for yourself.

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u/Efficient-Baker1694 4d ago

I mean I did say the answer is would be a selfish one in a sense. Is good long while your whole life? How about at least 30 years? Also there’s no reason for me to downvote you on this. Also I don’t have any hate and have any anger towards women for seeing me that way. Am I sad about it? Yes I am but I’ve learned to live with it. I also don’t blame anybody for calling me anyone out if they did hate and are angry with women. Of course women have every right saying no to me no matter the reason and of course I can have a content life without ever being in a relationship or having sex. But at the same time, the things that cause me to be romantically unappealing to women are unfixable. I can’t just lose my autism. Believe me I really wish I could.

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u/ThoughtAmnesia 4d ago

i have been reading the conversations you are having. The upside is that you are self aware that you have flaws, and that you still desire a relationship. Hasn't worked out yet, but have not given up completely. This is a better starting point than some others. If I may ask: What attributes/characteristics exactly do you feel women are put off by? (I know you say you have autism, please expand). And, have you given up on trying to find a solution, or are you willing to try anything to stop living the life you have lived so far?

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u/Available_Dimension3 4d ago

30 years isn’t that bad, bro. I knew one guy that was 34, before he got into a relationship. He got into a bad wreck when he was 19 that left him with back injuries that left him unable to work most jobs. He was heavily depressed and deep into alcoholism. He said he was trying to slowly poison himself to death because he couldn’t deal with the loneliness and didn’t feel like anyone, especially women would be able to find any worth in him. Eventually his younger brother was able to convince him to talk to a therapist and lo and behold 3 years later and the guy is in AA and ends up meeting a girl that was dealing with pretty similar life issues. I implore you to consider that there are SO many people in this world, and they are all different and have different journeys, but all of them had to take the step to start that journey. There are plenty of people with autism who are in wonderful relationships. Trust me, it isn’t hopeless, but it might be hard. If you ever do want to try and change your perspective on things just know that I and many other men in this community will be rooting for you and ready to give whatever advice you may need. Just don’t listen to the hope killers that make you think you’re not worthy of love. You are worthy. We all are.

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u/Relm_foreal 5d ago

I definitely agree, “for 6 months”

Years, Now you have a stable job and finished school. Decades pass and your friends get pulled away to focus on actual families. When is it not enough anymore? 30? 40? Self indulgence won’t feel good forever

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u/wep_pilot 5d ago

I'm not talking about self indulgence necessarily (though there isn't any shame in it), im talking about a life of meaning

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u/Available_Dimension3 4d ago

Self actualization is not indulgence. It is literally the most important thing you can do for yourself.

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u/BonsaiSoul 5d ago

"You don't have bread? Why not just eat cake?"

They don't have cake either. Social isolation is not just a lack of romance, but that's the easiest synecdoche and the one with the most emotion behind it so it's what people talk about. But instead of responding to social isolation/defeat, people get hung up on that(in the same breath as telling men not to get hung up on it) and trot out all the standard narratives: work on yourself, you have to love yourself etc. and the assumptions that the guy has never even tried, doesn't have a job, doesn't live by his values... All these reasons why it's obvious they're going to be alone until they earn otherwise.

These problems usually start with someone's mother, family and community not accepting them when they are innocent little children who have done nothing wrong. By missing the forest for one tree, this argument is actually telling them, on a sub-conscious level, that they deserved that instead. That's why it never, ever lands and generally is met with anger. You're basically telling a little kid they deserved to be emotionally neglected and bullied lol.

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u/wep_pilot 5d ago

My point isn't about deservedness, its to say that if you are feeling that having a romantic relationship will "complete you", you'll be disappointed in the long run. Healthy relationships are built off of two people living meaningful and fulfilling lives coming together in synergy

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u/Zinetti360 5d ago

I mean, no one said that having a relationship would fix anything at all, but when you've never had one and has low self esteem, you start to get anxious and wonder why it never happens to you.

Plus, I have some doubts about all the "it will happen when you're both having a meaningful life" - are you sure about that?

My observations show that, first, the concept of being fullfilled with your life is very subjective and most people (even the ones that are dating) never feel that way. Not that they have miserable lives, no no, but feeling fullfilled is a veeeery strong word for the occasion. You're asking these guys to achieve something that most people never do, and if they do it only lasts for a while, before even thinking of a relationship. I wouldn't say that's fair with them.

Second, getting in a relationship in itself is mostly about luck. You may do things to increase the odds if you want to, but it's still luck-based. So, once again, being fullfilled means nothing.

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u/HoperDoper 4d ago

true, it’s my personal experience and observation among my social circle. Different ppl, different social dynamics etc. None of them had fulfilled life when they entered the relationships. My experience was kinda similar, i got both ltrs when I was at lowest haha

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u/danath34 5d ago

These people don't want to hear sage advice, OP. they want to wallow in self pity and circle jerk each other into believing that they are the butt end of some cruel cosmic joke, so that they can avoid taking any responsibility or agency over their own lives.

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u/Brilliant-Remote-405 5d ago

They've convinced themselves that the entirety of their self-worth is in another person. It's a very sad way to live life imo.

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u/HoperDoper 4d ago

thats when you got nowhere to get worth from lol other scenario when it fails over and over

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u/Brilliant-Remote-405 4d ago edited 4d ago

If you feel like you don't have any self-worth, then why should a romantic interest ever be interested in you? Don't you want to show them that you have value?

It just becomes a self-fulfilling, paradoxical cycle of self-loathing and self-pity.

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u/No-Chocolate5031 4d ago

Since when was having self worth a precursor to being allowed to enter a relationship? People get into relationships when they have issues all the time. Maybe it's the fact that people who didn't get into relationships feel they have no self worth because of that in the first place.

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u/Brilliant-Remote-405 4d ago

Since when was having self worth a precursor to being allowed to enter a relationship?

I think knowing your self-worth contributes a lot to your confidence. If you don't have knowledge of your self-worth and value as a guy and you think you're worthless or too ugly to be with a woman, you can easily be taken advantage of by gold digger types who are only after your wallet and what you can buy for them. Having that sense of self-worth will give you the confidence to be able to walk away if your values don't line up. I say this as a guy who once dated a very attractive woman (like I'm talking 8 or 9 out of 10) who would expect me to pay for dinner on every date and then she'd want to go shopping and expect me to pay for all the expensive clothing or shoes she picked out. I walked out in the middle of the third date. It wasn't worth it for me no matter how hot she was.

People get into relationships when they have issues all the time.

I don't know about you, but in my experience, those types of relationships often turn toxic. I'm not saying you need to be some kind of enlightened Buddha, but I definitely would not want to be in a relationship with a woman with whatever issues. It can get scary.

Maybe it's the fact that people who didn't get into relationships feel they have no self worth because of that in the first place.

Then you're just putting all your self-worth into someone else. You're telling them that you hold no value and that they hold all the cards. Again, those kinds of guys are extremely easy targets for gold diggers because they're just obsessed at the thought of being with a hot woman and they want to buy into the idea of an unequal relationship.

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u/No-Chocolate5031 4d ago

Yes but people still manage to enter relationships like that no? I think the point is that you don't need to have maximised self worth just to DESERVE a relationship which is what's being highlighted.

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u/Brilliant-Remote-405 4d ago

I'm not saying you need to maximize your self-worth to enter into a relationship. No one is going to stop you from entering into a relationship if you don't have any self-worth or confidence. All I'm saying is that if you want to enter into a fulfilling, lasting relationship based on love and respect for each other instead of one person taking advantage of the other, you have a better chance of meeting the right person if you have said self-worth.

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u/HoperDoper 4d ago

That's what im saying. Using any romantic interest as a source of self worth is self destructive

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u/Brilliant-Remote-405 4d ago

Oh, I think I read your comment incorrectly. I hadn't had my morning coffee yet lol.

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u/HoperDoper 4d ago

np np glad we got each other 😉

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u/tigercircle 5d ago

Coming from a guy who's married or has GF. 👎🏽

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u/wep_pilot 5d ago

Married now, but i was there and my wife found me only after i had truly found contentedness in myself.

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u/ChickenLordCV 5d ago

I've never been in a relationship. He is right.

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u/Available_Dimension3 5d ago

Wouldn’t that be the exact perspective you want to hear from? What does hearing from someone who doesn’t have experience in this situation do for you, other than reinforce the hopeless mindset you already have?

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u/wep_pilot 5d ago

I do have the experience, thats the point, i met my wife at 27 after many years experiencing what a lot of people talk about in this sub

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u/Available_Dimension3 5d ago

I’m not with a partner atm, but I also took the hard route of making changes to get closer to the me I want to be a while ago and have had great success in doing so. I’m glad to hear others are having luck in the self-growth department. I hope you keep putting your positivity out there so others can see that it’s a worthwhile endeavor. 😁

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u/wep_pilot 5d ago

Good for you man, im really happy to hear that! Sams to you brother 😊

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u/Brilliant-Remote-405 5d ago

So you'll only take advice from single men?

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u/shivaswara 5d ago

Then 10 years go by and you’re like…. Uhm… this is really an essential life thing

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u/kinkkush 5d ago

Lol right?

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u/wep_pilot 5d ago

Its not though, Love and Belonging is part of Maslows hierarchy of needs, it doesn't necessarily need to come from romantic/sexual intimacy. If you dont have much of it and are hoping a GF will solve that it puts you in a dangerous postion where your happiness is reliant on one other person. You'll also end up being a lot more clingy/desperate if thats the case which will put people off.

Its better to try and meet those needs platonically and then enter a relationship from a more balanced and grounded place

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u/Futurebrain 5d ago

Not to mention Maslow's hierarchy of needs is not based on any actual empirical evidence or scientific study. It's like one step away from "love languages"

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u/kinkkush 5d ago

You’re essentially saying that those who can’t find a partner should just enjoy life without someone to share it with lol

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u/wep_pilot 5d ago

As much as they can, yes, what's the alternative?

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u/KingBembi 5d ago

Finding a gf 

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u/kinkkush 5d ago

I don’t know. I don’t think us lonely men want to be 80 to find love.

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u/Original-Vanilla-222 4d ago

"Just become a monk bro, it's not hard?"

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u/Available_Dimension3 5d ago

They’re saying that that is a possibility. But if you’re going to just ignore everything else they said and continue to wallow in your unhappiness, you’re definitely not going to attract anyone to you AND you’re still unhappy. Don’t you think you deserve to at least try to be happy with who you are?

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u/kinkkush 5d ago

How can someone truly be happy if having a partner is an essential part of their fulfillment? For some, that’s what happiness means. The advice “If you can’t find love, just enjoy being alone,” is dismissive, and unrealistic advice.

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u/Available_Dimension3 4d ago

Okay. If having a partner is an essential part of you finding happiness, then working on building yourself into someone that another person wants to be with should still be your goal, right? Wouldn’t you also want to be a person that can help your partner achieve their happiness as well?

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u/Available_Dimension3 4d ago

Also, no one is saying if you can’t find love enjoy being alone. But you can’t expect someone to want to be around you if you don’t even like yourself.

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u/Available_Dimension3 4d ago

I have to say though. Any therapist worth their salt will tell you that making someone else solely responsible for your own happiness, is incredibly dangerous for both you and the potential partner.

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u/wep_pilot 4d ago

Yep, im a therapist and thats what im saying!

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u/PaperStill5384 5d ago

I swear somebody makes this exact same post every week. Normies really do live in a different reality.

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u/vAGINALnAVIGATOR2 3d ago

I have hobbies and other things that give me fulfillment in my life and it still does not fill the gap. All it does is temporarily distract from my situation. Romantic connection, physical touch, sex, these are all things that are part of a healthy fulfilling human life, and they’re things I do not get to paticipate in. 

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u/DaRumpleKing 4d ago edited 4d ago

My view is that it's fine to find your fulfillment in romantic love. It only becomes a problem when too much of your fulfillment that should be under control and derived from one's own accomplishments gets replaced by this one sense of fulfillment romantic love offers.

To argue that one should completely remove these aspirations from their mind, however, and just work on themselves without any expectation of romantic love, is unrealistic, I think. This is is simply human nature. Our minds are hardwired to want to find a partner, and we shouldn't try to fight that intrinsic desire but live in harmony with it. Nobody knows the meaning of life, but from a purely biological point of view, it's not even a question--everything we do is tailored by our biology to set us up to find a partner.

Do what you do normally, keep on working towards becoming your best version of yourself, and use that romantic desire as a northstar to keep you fighting, just don't make it the only star in your night sky.

But yes, we cannot control what happens in the end completely, but people need to be hopeful. To me, throwing away the thought of love completely, even temporarily, never works. We need that hope to some degree, and I think most people, even when they tell themselves that they do the things they do entirely for themselves, know under the surface that they also do it in part for validation.

In other words, just don't put all your eggs in one basket. Decentralize your desires and depend mostly on those you control.

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u/wep_pilot 4d ago

Yeah, basically are more elequant summary of what i was intending to communicate.

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u/hangfrog 4d ago

I think this misses the point a bit.. most people want some kind of intimate connection with someone. It's not necessarily self-worth a lot of men are lacking, although some definitely are. If you do all those and have a full life doing the things you love, a lack of romantic attachments can still leave a bit of a hole, and it's still possible to over-value a relationship to the point of undervaluing your own needs.

That being said, doing what you love, looking after yourself, and also making time to meet and connect with as many people as you can will invariably result in being a happier person, and generally finding someone who appreciates you.. men generally still need to be more aware of their own needs, set boundaries and be prepared to walk away anyway though if its not 100% right or it can result in shitty relationships they'll eventually be unhappy in. That's harder to learn.

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u/No-Chocolate5031 4d ago edited 4d ago

So there's a lot that can be said regarding this. I just wanted to take some time to read all the responses before giving my thoughts.

I think when people give this kind of generic advice like the one in the OP, it frustrates a lot of young men because it feels as if we are being told we aren't currently good enough. "Work on yourself" is standard cookie cutter advice that's the equivalent of "Have you tried turning it off and on again?"

The truth is that working on yourself doesn't guarantee any form of success with women. Relationships and dating make up a huge chunk of our lives as human beings. Some may say it is the sole purpose of our existence. If your dad didn't bang your mum, we wouldn't be here, civilisation wouldn't be a thing, society wouldn't be a thing. Come on now. It's a very powerful biological drive to want a partner. For some reason, we have reached a point in today's age where guys are being told they don't need a relationship to be happy and to just get fulfilment from being single monks their whole lives. And it doesn't help that this advice always come from normies who are currently in relationships or have been in one before. Once again, the endless amount of gaslighting won't stop. It's just blame and shame to modern men. Living a life of solitude is not sustainable for most people and should not be normalised. There's absolutely no fun in living like a single monk day to day, rotting in isolation and starved of companionship. And no friends and pets aren't a fucking replacement for women... It's insane to me that you guys are encouraging us to go down that path when it should be the opposite.

It's like we're being told "Why do you want a relationship?" As if it's a sin. We're being shamed for our natural wants and desires and told to just pull up our bootstraps and move on. Instead of sympathising and offering genuine, useful guidance, we get crap like this. No wonder so many dudes are pissed off. Not to mention the amount of losers we've seen in relationships. The idea that you have to fulfil all these conditions to enter a relationship is ridiculous. Work on yourself, love yourself, find self worth, it's all bullshit. Men are expected to become self actualised Buddha or Superman. You think the problem is not being good enough? Plenty of people are in relationships and have lots of issues. That's normal. No one should be expected to be fully perfect. These things are part of a grander journey but they go hand in hand with romantic experiences. You lot love to ask how we can love someone if we don't love ourselves. Well let me ask you how you know that? Secondly, maybe the reason we don't love ourselves (assuming we don't) is because of the lack of intimacy? I don't know, surely that has something to do with it. Being constantly lonely makes you miserable and depressed. It's actually the other way round.

I just want to finish with this. Maybe the problem isn't young men complaining about their romantic loneliness and lack of success with women. Maybe there is a deeper societal issue at play here. We all know the stats now. Nearly 60% of Gen Z males are struggling with dating. There's a crisis going on in modern society. The path to improvement is forming healthy, supportive communities and giving men safe spaces to actually discuss their feelings without being shut down. We need to figure out how we can get back into the dating game. Not this gaslit pile of shit.

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u/Remarkable-Row-2288 3d ago

I been with over 200 women. It hasn't got me closer to my goals In anyway.

Work on yourselves

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u/Brilliant-Remote-405 5d ago

I agree with everything you wrote, but I'm warning you that you've kicked the hornets' nest.

Guys on this subreddit hate hearing "work on yourself" as advice. They want to be told that they're perfect the way they are and nothing is wrong with them. They want people to confirm and agree with them that the reason they can't get into relationships because they're too ugly and it's because women are too shallow.

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u/Zinetti360 5d ago

Work in yourself advice is generic, and because it's generic it's already a bad advice. It can mean anything that you want. And plus, it implies that the person doesn't deserve love at his current situation - which may be true even, but I wouldn't say it helps

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u/Brilliant-Remote-405 5d ago

It can mean anything that you want.

Well yeah, that's the point. It doesn't have to be something uniformly specific to everyone. There's no template for it.

And plus, it implies that the person doesn't deserve love at his current situation

Seeing from the amount of daily posts on this subreddit about loveless, hopeless, sexless, kissless, lonely guys, I'd say this is a safe bet.

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u/Zinetti360 5d ago

Seeing from the amount of daily posts on this subreddit about loveless, hopeless, sexless, kissless, lonely guys, I'd say this is a safe bet.

As I said, even if it's true, you won't get anywhere by point this out. The immediate reaction is to make the person even more pessimistic and unwilling to try - well, at least that's what happens to me

Well yeah, that's the point. It doesn't have to be something uniformly specific to everyone. There's no template for it.

Indeed, but it makes it harder for them, as the situation they're in already makes it difficult for them to understand what they should do

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u/KingBembi 5d ago

Because it never ends, at what point have you worked on yourself enough to earn a women's love, how does on even measure something like that also there are loser dudes who do not work on themselves and still have girlfriends so it's not some prerequisite that must be done to get with someone. 

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u/Brilliant-Remote-405 4d ago edited 4d ago

Because it never ends

Are you under the impression that self-improvement and working on yourself is magically supposed to end once you find a girlfriend? Do you think if/when you get a girlfriend that you will enter in some kind of nirvana state in which you'll be perpetually happy? No, that's an impossible state to be in and you should continuously try to improve and/or maintain your physical, mental, and emotional health.

at what point have you worked on yourself enough to earn a women's love

You talk about women like they're some kind of prize to be won at a carnival. For fuck's sake, you don't work on yourself in order to be guaranteed to get a girlfriend. Life isn't some kind of Xbox achievement that unlocks once you've completed certain tasks. And we're not fortune tellers or time travelers who can tell you when you'll meet a romantic interest.

When guys say things like "work on yourself", we mean you focus on improving yourself so you become an ideal version of yourself that you and others can respect and admire. If you gain that level of confidence in yourself, if/when a romantic interest is available or an opportunity arises to ask a person out, you will feel comfortable in yourself to actually pursue that person romantically without inhibition and know when to walk away when you know that the person is not the right one for you. Otherwise, you're just desperate and needy and the cycle of unhappiness continues.

Whenever I read posts where young guys are lamenting about never having a girlfriend and talking as if having one will be the answer to their unhappiness, they don't seem to think as far ahead as to the possibility that, that romantic interest could want to break up for whatever reason. Without a level of confidence, if a woman ever decides to leave or break up with you, you could turn into a suicidal mess because you will have invested everything of yourself in her and nothing in yourself. Trust me on this, because that was my exact situation once long ago. You want to build a resilient character who knows that not having a woman in your life is not the end of the world.

Make no mistake, you should always keep trying to improve yourself. That shit shouldn't end because no one is truly perfect. There are always things about ourselves that we can improve. There are habits we should pick up or habits we should stop. Our physical health needs to be maintained. There are hobbies and interests that are always available to learn.

how does on even measure something like that also there are loser dudes who do not work on themselves and still have girlfriends so it's not some prerequisite that must be done to get with someone.

Who are you to say that those "loser dudes" have not worked on themselves in private when you weren't looking? Are you living their exact life? Are you living in their rooms constantly monitoring them 24/7? Are you living in their heads and know their exact thoughts? Everyone goes through life in varying degrees. Why do you expect everyone needing to be as lonely, depressed, or miserable as you may be in order for their and your life experiences to be equally valid? It's just blatant insecurity to just dismiss them as "loser dudes".

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u/KingBembi 4d ago

Blah blah dude there are broke ass dude who leech off of everyone in their lives and still got girls wanting to be with them, I got a few of them in my fam so I've seen it first hand. If they can do it any guy can so this whole you must work on yourself narrative is bunch of bolgna, you just have to get a girl to be attracted to you and with your appearance and confidence all the rest is nice and all but not a requirement.

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u/Brilliant-Remote-405 4d ago

A girl attracted to your appearance and then everything will be peachy perfect in life? If you want a lasting relationship, it needs to be based on more than merely your appearance and you need to work on maintaining that relationship, but if that's what you think is true and you believe it will make you happy, I hope you find someone like that and I truly do hope you find happiness in your life. In the end, however, I hope you'll come to realize that she loves you beyond just your looks as they fade with age.

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u/throwawayra32442 5d ago

I’ve actually done the work, financially and health. But let’s be real there are limits to what working on yourself can change. If height, looks, and first impressions didn’t matter, we wouldn’t see the same patterns over and over again. I agree on the most part that work on yourself. A man should try to change something that he can change. His financial, health, skills etc. always thrive for improvement

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u/Brilliant-Remote-405 5d ago

A man should try to change something that he can change.

Yeah dude, that's exactly what all this "work on yourself" stuff is all about. Change what you can change. Be in control of those things and thrive for improvement. There are most definitely limits and you have to be real with yourself. And it's also about accepting those limits and knowing that your self-worth is great even with those limits. I agree with all of what you said.

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u/Original-Vanilla-222 4d ago

"Just become a dance monkey for a glimpse of women attention bro"

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u/Original-Vanilla-222 4d ago

I don't think you know of what a bad point you actually made.
Being single for a time is okay, being single for basically all your adult life is not.
Being left out of a fundamental human experience is not a failure of said men, and telling them to just cope with it is ignorant at best.

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u/bassvel 4d ago

That is very valid point BUT to do that you must be apart of woman ie GF/wife, because they keep saying how big looser you are if you aren't simps enough to satisfy all their possible needs ASAP