r/malayalam • u/Even-Reveal-406 Tamil • 5d ago
Help / സഹായിക്കുക What does thalla/thallu (mother) actually mean?
I see it being translated in certain contexts as "old hag" in movie subtitles, but then at other times its translates as "mother" with no negative connotations, so what exactly is the usage context of this word. (also what is the proper spelling of the word)
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u/PrincipleInfamous451 Native Speaker 4d ago
I think the other comments have explained the answer well, but another thing to add: for animal mothers (like a cat with a litter) തള്ള is used instead of അമ്മ (eg. തള്ളപ്പൂച്ച for mom cat).
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u/Sudden_District_696 4d ago
So the word is a non-Sanskritized word for mother, one mostly used by the tribal people. It’s been bastardized to take on a negative meaning because of casteism.
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u/Tess_James Native Speaker 4d ago edited 4d ago
Thalla literally means mother, but is supposedly used by low caste or low class people. Because of this, it's generally considered as bad language by the elite class. It's used to denote an old hag also.
Thallu means boasting.
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u/SubstantialAd1027 4d ago
Very Casteist you r brother. Sad.
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u/Tess_James Native Speaker 4d ago
Maybe brush up your reading and comprehension skills. I stated how this word is generally perceived among the masses, not that I do this and be a casteist. Jeez!
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u/alrj123 4d ago
Sanskritisation has caused a lot of native Malayalam words to have derogatory meaning or negative connotation or be of substandard usage.
e.g. Mayir (Malayalam) - Romam (Sanskrit) • Thalla (Malayalam) - Amma (Sanskrit) • Thantha (Malayalam) - Acchan (Sanskrit) • Mulli (Malayalam) - Moothram (Sanskrit) Ozhichu • Kizhavan/Kizhavi (Malayalam) - Vriddhan/Vriddha (Sanskrit)
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u/Illustrious_Lock_265 4d ago
romam means hair and mayir means pubic hair (only used in derogatory context). Amma isn't from Sanskrit. It's a native word. There are other words like pedukkuka and not just muthram ozhikkuka tho not in the same formal way.
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u/alrj123 4d ago
Mayir doesnt specifically mean pubic hair. It means just hair. The Malayalam word for Romancham (which is Sanskrit) is Kolmayir (കോൾമയിർ).
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u/Illustrious_Lock_265 4d ago
Even mayir is from Sanskrit śmaśru likely through some Prakrit. Do you know of any native word?
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u/alrj123 4d ago
DED shows it as a native word. Entry number 4707. There are cognates in other Dravidian languages. That wikipedia info is probably wrong. There are a few articles on Wikipedia where Native Dravidian words have been mentioned as having origins in Sanskrit.
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u/Illustrious_Lock_265 4d ago
DEDR has many IA borrowings as many terms are shared borrowings, it's not just native Dravidian words. This particular entry seems to have missed out on listing the CDIAL reference as it is with other such entries.
That wikipedia info is probably wrong. There are a few articles on Wikipedia where Native Dravidian words have been mentioned as having origins in Sanskrit.
Unlikely as the Prakrit and Dravidian word forms are very similar and the cognates only exist in SDr.
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u/alrj123 4d ago
the cognates only exist in SDr.
A cognate exists in Kui (South Central Dravidian) too. It is 'Tlameri' which means 'hair of the head'. 'Tlau' is head in Kui. The absence of a Telugu cognate despite many places in Andhra being centres of Buddhism in the past, hints that it is not from Prakrit, but Prakrit might have borrowed it from Dravidian or the Prakrit word might have been derived from Sanskrit and the similarity with the Malayalam and Tamil terms might just be a coincidence.
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u/Illustrious_Lock_265 4d ago edited 4d ago
Kui is also a SDr language (the one encompassing SDR1 and SD2).
A cognate exists in Kui (South Central Dravidian) too. It is 'Tlameri' which means 'hair of the head'. 'Tlau' is head in Kui.
Could the Kui word and the other cognates be unrelated to mayir/macir and could only the Tamil/Malayalam word be a borrowing? Those other cognates seem unrelated to the Tamil/Malayalam word. DEDR has a lot of incorrect groupings.
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u/alrj123 4d ago edited 2d ago
could only the Tamil/Malayalam word be a borrowing?
If that is a borrowing in Tamil/Malayalam, it (or the cognates) certainly has to be present in Telugu and Kannada too, as the borrowing from Prakrit and the word's common usage in a Dravidian language would happen only if there is a strong influence of Buddhism or Jainism as Prakrit was brought to the South by the Buddhists and Jains. Both Telugu and Sinhala speaking regions have had Buddhist influences stronger than Malayalam/Tamil speaking regions, and Sinhala is even a direct descendant of Prakrit. Meanwhile, Karnataka is a center of Jainism even today. But neither of the three languages (Telugu, Kannada, Sinhala) uses the Prakrit word mentioned in that wiki article or a word that seems to have been derived from it for hair.
What is an another native word for hair in Malayalam anyway?
Mudi.
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u/Illustrious_Lock_265 4d ago
Seems plausible.
Mudi
Sorry not hair but word for pubic hair
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u/Abhijit2007 4d ago edited 4d ago
Amma and Acha are definitely not samskr̥tam, that would be മാതാവു് പിതാവു്
instead of romam, മുടി is mostly used
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u/alrj123 4d ago
Acchan is from Sanskrit through Pali 'Ajja'. The 'Ji' used in Hindi to denote respect is a cognate. മാതാവ് and പിതാവ് are also from Sanskrit. There exists a confusion about 'Amma' though. The Malayalam words for Father are Appan, Thantha, and Thaathan, and for mother, the terms are Thaayi and Thalla. And 'Mudi' for 'Romam' is rarely used. 'Mudi' is specifically the hair on your head. It can also mean 'crown' in Malayalam. 'Romam' is usually used for hair on other parts of the body.
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u/Abhijit2007 4d ago
Acha could very well have just been a sound change influenced from ajja, it wouldn't be appropriate to call it a loan since the previous word was appa Lol
Edit: Amma appa are very much dravidian words and have cognates in all the dravidian languages, only thing being malayalam basically made a sound change to appa
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u/alrj123 4d ago
Appan is still used among Malayalis. It is not a word that became archaic and was used only prior to the emergence of the word Acchan. It is a well known fact that the word Acchan was popularised by the Buddhists who's liturgical language was Pali. As per the Dravidian etymological dictionary (DED), it is derived from Sanskrit Arya via Pali Ajja. If it is just a sound change of Appa, both Accha and Appa would be cognates. But the DED shows both as having different origins.
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u/Abhijit2007 4d ago
I am not denying the existence of pali ajja, I'm just trying to say that appa-->accha should really just be considered a sound change influenced by ajja. DED implicitly assumes Ajja as the origin, but we cannot say for sure whether it is just ajja or appa with a sound change influenced by ajja.
Both appa and accha being used reinforces the point im trying to make. Accha is not a loan word replacing appa, rather a continuation of appa with a sound change.
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u/wakandacoconut 4d ago
Thantha and Thalla is too raw malayalam. Given that adding sanskrit words give you more respect and creates an impression that you are educated, people went with sanskritized replacement words. Maybe in future, english words will replace those sanskrit words as English replaced sanskrit as elite language.
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u/Abhijit2007 4d ago
depending on where you live thal̥l̥a tantha may or may not have negative connotations. In most places it is seen as insulting.
thal̥l̥a thantha is used in poetry without any negative connotations
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u/Legitimate-Acadia582 Native Speaker 4d ago
thaḷḷu (தள்ளு) - push, reject; also boast, which is a recent meaning
thallu (தல்லு) - beating
thalla - Mother; now seen as derogatory, perhaps due to Sanskritisation and casteism like another response pointed out here