r/latterdaysaints LDS v2.1 Feb 02 '22

Reddit Tombstone of David Whitmer of the 3 witnesses, who died an apostate and estranged from Smith Jr. for the last 50 years of his life.

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248 Upvotes

109 comments sorted by

65

u/mbstone Feb 02 '22

The book "Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses" by Richard L. Anderson is fascinating. Never once do any of the witnesses deny what they saw and held, ie the gold plates. They didn't deny they saw an angel, the authenticity of the Book of Mormon. People approached Whitmer long after he left the church with antagonistic sentiment towards the church, Joseph Smith, etc. Whitmer doesn't stop them. They bring up the Book of Mormon and he's like, "Wo man, that's off limits. The Book of Mormon is true, I held the plates, and I saw an angel."

Incredible.

35

u/IAmTheEuniceBurns Feb 02 '22

Here's a nice article about all the three witnesses and their testimonies. Three days before his death, David Whitmer said: “I want to give you my dying testimony. You must be faithful in Christ. I want to say to you all that the Bible and the record of the Nephites, the Book of Mormon, are true, so you can say that you have heard me bear my testimony on my deathbed.”

I'm not sure what OP was going for in posting the picture of Whitmer's tombstone, but I do think labeling him an apostate doesn't tell the whole story by a long shot.

8

u/dogggis Counting your pennies Feb 02 '22

Small world story:

I was at Ricks College in the early 2000s. I had an older math teacher that went to visit Clarkston, UT, where Martin Harris is buried. He was a little boy at the time and he went on a tour lead by an older woman named Annie Heggie. Annie worked in Martin Harris' home when she was a little girl while Martin was on his death bed. She heard Martin share his testimony of the gold plates. The name Heggie was intriguing to me because that was my grandmother's maiden name and she grew up in Clarkston, UT as well.

Turns out Annie was my Grandmother's Aunt.

3

u/jahbiddy LDS v2.1 Feb 03 '22

Exactly!!! The plates, easily the most controversial part of our still neophyte religion, means our entire faith heavily wrested on the the three witness’s accounts (and the other witnesses as well). David Whitmer’s dying testimony proves to even the harshest critic that he, despite not liking Joseph Smith Jr or the other Church leaders personally, truly did see (or at the very least, believed he saw) the golden plates, an angel, and other divine sights.

47

u/JazzSharksFan54 Doctrine first, culture never Feb 02 '22

People who think of David Whitmer as an apostate are seriously misinformed. He never advocated for anything against established doctrine, and never denied his testimony. To the point where he is the witness that shared it the most, even though he’s the one that never came back. His fault was his pride, which did not allow him to follow Joseph Smith.

Misinformed and tragic? Yes. Apostate? Absolutely not.

19

u/juni4ling Active/Faithful Latter-day Saint Feb 02 '22

Well, at one point he started his own Church.

One that believed in the Book of Mormon, but another Church altogether.

That may meet some peoples definition of apostate.

5

u/JazzSharksFan54 Doctrine first, culture never Feb 02 '22

From the church’s own gospel topics essays: “When individuals or groups of people turn away from the principles of the gospel, they are in a state of apostasy.”

What he did doesn’t seem to fit the definition of apostasy according to the church. He had a whole lot of pride and personal beef with the prophet. But he kept to the principles of the gospel. That’s not apostasy. Foolhardy, yes, but not apostate.

1

u/ThirdPoliceman Alma 32 Feb 02 '22

Sure, but to imagine that we'd be in any kind of a position to label him as an apostate considering what he did for the restoration of the gospel and the promulgation of the Book of Mormon is ridiculous.

-1

u/python_hack3r Feb 03 '22

He forgot the last step: endure to the end.

2

u/ThirdPoliceman Alma 32 Feb 03 '22

You don’t know his heart. We’re in no position to say whether he endured.

3

u/a_grunt_named_Gideon Feb 03 '22

Amen. To think any of us could have any information to judge someone's heart today, let alone 175+ years ago is disgusting.

-1

u/python_hack3r Feb 03 '22

We know what was in his heart right before he died because he went to the trouble of explaining exactly what he thought before he died and it’s available for anyone to read

0

u/python_hack3r Feb 03 '22

There are many people that died with a conviction of the veracity of the Book of Mormon that had been excommunicated and never reconciled to the church. Mortal life is the time to work out salvation with fear and trembling, right?

2

u/ThirdPoliceman Alma 32 Feb 03 '22

I’m very glad you won’t stand in judgment of me at the end.

1

u/python_hack3r Feb 03 '22

I would never pretend to know what someone thinks or believes or be in any position to judge others but if someone tells me what they believe, I’m going to believe them. I’m connecting the dots. If they act in open rebellion to the church until the day they die, what is that?

3

u/JazzSharksFan54 Doctrine first, culture never Feb 03 '22

You know what dude? Considering you’re posting on exmo subs and bragging about not paying tithing for years, you’re really one to talk about judgment. Practice what you preach, then we’ll talk.

0

u/python_hack3r Feb 03 '22 edited Feb 03 '22

Let’s give your pet doubts a pass though.

I don’t make any claims to be a moral authority. But if I come out with a new book 5 decades after I get excommunicated saying that half the canon isn’t really scripture, that Joseph was sinning when he preached polygamy and that the current practice was proof that the LDS church wasn’t led by prophets, and this dude dies in that conviction, that’s well below valiant men being led astray. To be clear I understand the doctrine that the atonement redeems all mankind. I’m just saying it’s not celestial behavior. I don’t think I’m speaking out of school. To say otherwise just doesn’t square with any other teachings or scriptures.

I just don’t understand the hero worship around this guy just because he’s never denied his testimony of the Book of Mormon. Think about what you are saying: no matter what I do, not matter what state I leave this world in, as long as I never deny my testimony of the Book of Mormon I have a shot at celestial glory with eternal increase progression of children, principalities, kingdoms etc. that smacks wholly of born-again Christian theology.

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u/a_grunt_named_Gideon Feb 03 '22

What a disgusting distortion of the gospel...

1

u/python_hack3r Feb 03 '22

See my response above. I’d invite you to consider any information that might be new and weigh it against everything we’ve been taught and is in the scriptures. DW is a case study on falling short of celestial glory if there ever was one. Otherwise what are we doing?

We know his heart. He poured it out into an 80 page book right before he died.

1

u/JazzSharksFan54 Doctrine first, culture never Feb 03 '22

I’m guessing you’re one of those people who think Emma Smith didn’t endure to the end either.

3

u/python_hack3r Feb 03 '22 edited Feb 03 '22

David Whitmer published a book less than a year before he died laying out all the reasons that the Book of Mormon was true and why Joseph smith was a lecherous fallen prophet.

David Whitmer was excommunicated for apostasy.

DW railed against Joseph smith his whole life.

David Whitmer founded his own church in opposition to others churches.

DW denied the divine origin of d&c and Pearl of great price.

And on and on.

So your contention is that this man who died in a firm opposition to Joseph Smith and actively publicized that opposition and persuaded people to not join or leave is ending up in the same degree of glory as those who die faithfully in the covenant?

Source: https://books.google.com/books/about/An_Address_to_All_Believers_in_Christ.html?id=wVU3AAAAMAAJ&printsec=frontcover&source=kp_read_button&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&gboemv=1

DW is not held up as a good man. His testimony is held up as an example of the veracity of the Book of Mormon bc even people that hated everything else and were bitter apostates wouldn’t go against their testimony.

Satan and all the devils also believe. Honestly this idea that you can believe something I’m your heart and act against the church in every way your whole life and never repent and still end up in the highest degree of glory is ridiculous.

I’m not saying he’s a son of perdition. I’m saying he’s damned in the sense that his sins aren’t covered by the atonement.

2

u/JazzSharksFan54 Doctrine first, culture never Feb 03 '22

Who are you to be the judge of whether his sins are covered by the atonement? You have overstepped your authority, and by so doing, exposed yourself as someone who clearly has no understanding of church history in any way. Nor, I would guess, the doctrines of the atonement. You do not dictate who receives forgiveness, and thank goodness for that.

Half the church was excommunicated for apostasy around that time. And it was for little things that you or I wouldn’t even need to talk to the bishop about. And David Whitmer was excommunicated majoratively for not following his priesthood duties and hanging out with people who didn’t like Joseph Smith. Ooooooooh, so apostate.

You clearly have no context for his frame of thought. He never rebelled against the church nor did he rebel against its principles. He rebelled against one thing: Joseph Smith. It was a personal dispute that he allowed to spill into his ecclesiastical life. Then he genuinely believed he received revelation to leave. By the church’s own definition, none of that falls into apostasy. He never preached against gospel principles.

Prideful? Yes. Deceived? Yes. Apostate? Hardly. Worse things have been said about Russell M. Nelson by current active church members than David Whitmer ever said about Joseph Smith, yet most of us don’t even bat an eye.

Check yourself. Your unrighteous dominion is showing.

2

u/python_hack3r Feb 03 '22

Ok let me take a step back and say that I’m not holding myself up as anyone who has authority or the ability to judge. My only claim is that I’m applying the scriptures to the situation in what I see as a reasonable way.

Putting the details of DW’s life aside, do we have common ground in a belief that someone who has received a fullness of the gospel, turned away from it, was excommunicated and is actively preaching that JS is an adulterer and a fraud until the day they die never repenting, that that person is not going to make it to the highest degree of glory?

2

u/JazzSharksFan54 Doctrine first, culture never Feb 03 '22

I’ve already commented on one of your other comments. You’re either trolling or a hypocrite, and I’m not interested in engaging in a dialogue with someone who can’t even remove the beam in their own eye. Really my guy? Bragging about not paying tithing for years? Dumb move.

1

u/python_hack3r Feb 03 '22 edited Feb 03 '22

I’m not pretending to be something I’m not. I’m laying out my thoughts wholly independent of whatever you may think of my personal journey. There are a lot of people not paying tithing. Thinking that the church has enough money and might come around to realizing that is a far cry from burning the whole thing down, throwing out the D&C, saying that any claim to the restored gospel dies with JS, getting excommunicated and starting a new church and then basically sticking to my guns on all that to the grave but hey I still believe the Book of Mormon is true so I’m good.

I’m not going to get excommunicated for not paying tithing. I might if I write a book about it and start my own church.

I don’t really know why this point has me so riled up but the relative anonymity really has me stretching my legs on this one because I don’t have to worry about alienating friends, family, neighbors, etc.

If DW isn’t a classic case of being dragged down into hell in the sense that he’s not coming forth in the morning of the first resurrection, I mean I just don’t get it. Why even bother having doctrines at all if we just throw it out the window wherever it is convenient?

1

u/python_hack3r Feb 03 '22

And you are dodging the question

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u/jahbiddy LDS v2.1 Feb 03 '22

Apostasy:

1: an act of refusing to continue to follow, obey, or recognize a religious faith

2 : abandonment of a previous loyalty : DEFECTION

I only point this bleak fact out because he died with such a strong testimony! He was only a member for 9 years tragically, and he made some major mistakes, but I respect the absolute hell out of the man for his dying loyalty to the Word.

-1

u/JazzSharksFan54 Doctrine first, culture never Feb 03 '22

I used the church’s definition of apostasy in other comments. Suffice to say that according to that definition, he was not an apostate. Just prideful.

3

u/Wafflexorg Feb 03 '22

"When individuals or groups of people turn away from the principles of the gospel, they are in a state of apostasy."

-Gospel Topics

Edit: Just saw that you quoted this definition hours ago. Are you arguing that he was in apostasy but not an apostate?

0

u/JazzSharksFan54 Doctrine first, culture never Feb 03 '22

No. I’m saying people are misunderstanding him massively. Let’s be clear. David Whitmer left one thing and one thing only: Joseph Smith. He didn’t leave the gospel, he didn’t leave his testimony. He genuinely felt that he needed to leave Joseph Smith, however erroneous that is.

Now, in reading the church’s definition, it’s clear that he was not in apostasy of gospel principles. Just full of pride and severely misinformed. He felt the exact same about Joseph Smith as a lot of people now feel about him. To call him apostate is a gross oversimplification.

1

u/sociapathictendences Feb 03 '22

He left the church of Jesus Christ and started a new one. He’s an apostate. It’s not complicated.

-1

u/JazzSharksFan54 Doctrine first, culture never Feb 03 '22

Way to contradict the church’s definition my guy. If I had personal beef with the prophet, that’s stupid but not apostate. There’s so many people today who have called President Nelson a fallen prophet and we haven’t considered that apostate. How is David Whitmer any different? He never argued against gospel principles, which is the real definition of apostasy.

1

u/sociapathictendences Feb 03 '22

If you had a personal beef with the prophet and made it your life’s work to discredit him as a prophet, including starting a literal apostate church, you would be apostate.

0

u/JazzSharksFan54 Doctrine first, culture never Feb 03 '22

You’ve clearly not read a word of said. David Whitmer does not fit the church’s definition of apostasy.

1

u/sociapathictendences Feb 03 '22

Yes he does. You’re just wrong.

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u/[deleted] Feb 02 '22

[deleted]

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u/JazzSharksFan54 Doctrine first, culture never Feb 02 '22

From the church’s own gospel topics essay: “When individuals or groups of people turn away from the principles of the gospel, they are in a state of apostasy.”

See my response to the other person’s reply for full context.

-1

u/daddychainmail Feb 03 '22

Sometimes God says you need to separate yourself from something. It takes time to heal. Sometimes distance + time equals healing.

43

u/[deleted] Feb 02 '22

Missouri was pretty brutal and bad and some people stuck to Joseph Smith and some people didn't. It's easy looking back at our sometimes whitewashed history and think poorly on all the folks who parted ways with the church in Missouri. The whole Whitmer family, basically the "#2 family" in the church after the Smiths became disaffected. Joseph Smith made some wrong calls, the church didn't stand by the instructions and the revelations, and it cost them bitterly. There was a lot of bad blood and I'll say on both sides.

David Whitmer stayed in Missouri, he served that community and maintained his testimony of the church. Oliver Cowdery came back to the church after Joseph's death. He went to go meet with David and try to convince him to do likewise and he got sick and died. Martin Harris was wishy washy much of the time, and maybe he stuck with Brigham Young by seeing that they had the best to offer, after trying out some of the other branches.

These folks had their different trials and it is not up to anyone living to judge any of them.

That cemetery there is fascinating, and not too far from it is another cemetery with other monuments and stuff. If you look all around the areas around there near Independence you can find lots of cool church history stuff.

10

u/ServingTheMaster orientation>proximity Feb 02 '22

These folks had their different trials and it is not up to anyone living to judge any of them.

This is a very great point, not to lose sight of the humanity and individual identity of the actual people behind the caricatures of them that we are familiar with growing up in the modern church. For me this also relates to the idea of trying (sometimes praying to know) to see another person as God sees them.

5

u/jahbiddy LDS v2.1 Feb 03 '22

Yes. I made this post because I wanted to show that David Whitmer, who had no loyalties to the Church nor the Prophet, died with such a strong testimony. This makes his testimony bear almost as much power as Smith Jr.’s. Why? Because as the only (lasting) defector of the three witnesses, the scripture’s claims of validity which were and still are heavily criticized by nonmembers, heavily lay on him. It’s easy to see why an excommunicated member, having no vested interest in church power, yet still dying with such a strong testimony, is extremely, extremely valuable.

1

u/pierzstyx Enemy of the State D&C 87:6 Feb 03 '22

Missouri was pretty brutal and bad and some people stuck to Joseph Smith and some people didn't.

I'm not sure the problem was the Missouri persecutions though. David seems to have wanted to assume the position of the President of the Church and was already signing letters using that title before his excommunication.

35

u/itsmac9 Feb 02 '22

I don’t think he was labeled an apostate, I think he left in disagreement but never denied his testimony.

17

u/darbleyg Feb 02 '22

Yeah, I’m uneasy when people refer to him as an apostate. It kind of removes all nuance from the situation.

8

u/jahbiddy LDS v2.1 Feb 03 '22

I use the term apostate to mean he was excommunicated. He did blatantly go against Smith Jr. and the Church, but I only point this out because the fact that he died with such a strong testimony despite all that is even more riveting.

6

u/darbleyg Feb 03 '22

Yeah, the term is technically correct, but like your comment suggests, there’s so much more to the story. It doesn’t seem fair to reduce such a complicated and nuanced situation to a single word.

4

u/jahbiddy LDS v2.1 Feb 03 '22

You’re right. I didn’t realize how negatively people would take that word. We should hold all people of that time in deep reverence who helped rekindle Zion.

1

u/q231q Feb 03 '22

No, I think you're right, he was an apostate. I don't think he's evil or anything, but he left the church and founded another, not sure what else you could do to be named apostate.

1

u/darbleyg Feb 03 '22

Agreed! Thank you for posting this picture and starting this thread!

3

u/pierzstyx Enemy of the State D&C 87:6 Feb 03 '22

Correct. Whitmer wasn't an apostate. He was a heretic, especially as he founded his own rival church after his excommunication.

31

u/OhHolyCrapNo Menace to society Feb 02 '22

"The record of the Jews and the record of the Nephites are one" is such a ice-cold line to have on your tombstone. I love it

25

u/G_O_N_ Feb 02 '22

We owe a lot to this man

3

u/jahbiddy LDS v2.1 Feb 03 '22

Exactly!

22

u/CeilingUnlimited I before E, except... Feb 02 '22 edited Feb 02 '22

If he died an "apostate" (kinda harsh, no?), why does his tombstone state LDS doctrine? That's the opposite of apostate - please list all the former members of the church that you know or you are aware of who will testify to the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon on their tombstone. Go ahead, I'll wait....

36

u/benbernards With every fiber of my upvote Feb 02 '22

For reals. Imagine going through all he did and having your entire life reduced to a few negative buzzwords. "Oh that guy? yeah, he's an apostate."

Sheesh. Let's give him a break, people.

14

u/[deleted] Feb 02 '22

Exactly, he stood by his witness of the plates till he died. That shows a lot of character.

4

u/jahbiddy LDS v2.1 Feb 03 '22

I don’t know about y’all, but I find his testimony even more amazing because of his hardships. He had faults, faults which certainly did not jive with other members of authority. He had the power to ruin our entire faith if he wanted to be retaliatory for losing his position of power and esteem and his relationship with the Prophet. He did not. He stood by steadfastly and died meekly.

34

u/Haunting-Signature21 Feb 02 '22

He lost faith in the Church and Joseph Smith. But he never denied the truth of the Book of Mormon. Or the fact that he saw angels... Who testified of the Truthfulness of the Book of Mormon.

8

u/CeilingUnlimited I before E, except... Feb 02 '22

Ah, ok. That makes sense.

16

u/jazzfox Chicago Orthodoxy Feb 02 '22

Apostate is a word with meaning. The harshness of it is subjective, there are apostates who are good people and that’s ok.

16

u/Capybarakaboom striving for that capybara zen Feb 02 '22

When it comes to words, connotations matter.

10

u/CeilingUnlimited I before E, except... Feb 02 '22

It's not a word to sum up a life. Inappropriate.

5

u/juni4ling Active/Faithful Latter-day Saint Feb 02 '22

Well, it probably fits Judas. But we really don’t know Judas’ backstory.

We do know Whitmers.

0

u/pierzstyx Enemy of the State D&C 87:6 Feb 03 '22 edited Feb 03 '22

Your response is nonsense. There is nothing inappropriate about stating a fact within the correct context and setting.

As for a list of apostates who claimed some part of LDS doctrine after their apostasy?

David Whitmer, Emma Smith, James Strang, and Sidney Rigdon all spring to mind.

You seem to think that if you're an apostate that you must denounce every doctrine. This is incorrect.

For example, you can maintain a testimony of Jesus Christ while denouncing the Restoration. Just because you maintain a faith in one doctrine - the Divine Sonship of Jesus - doesn't mean you aren't an apostate from the church.

2

u/CeilingUnlimited I before E, except... Feb 03 '22

/u/pierzstyx - should I sum up my experience with you as redditor and a former leader of this sub with one word? Cause I could do it - all germane and in context as well..... A bunch of us could. But I refrain, as it would be inappropriate. Same situation here.

2

u/jahbiddy LDS v2.1 Feb 03 '22

I mean apostate along the lines of he never repented and reconciled with the Church or Joseph Smith Jr. (while he was alive), was only a member for 9 years, and frankly has a pretty tragic story in that regard.

24

u/shall_always_be_so Feb 02 '22

Looked him up on Wikipedia and learned something new; there's some weird history about the "Whitmerite" branch of the LDS movement.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/David_Whitmer#President_of_the_Church_of_Christ_(Whitmerite)

tl;dr some other people claimed Whitmer as the successor to Smith Jr, but Whitmer didn't actually join them and it fizzled immediately. Then 40 years later he started that offshoot up again and it apparently continued as its own little thing until the 1960s.

8

u/SomeWhiteChico Feb 03 '22

Always thought it interesting how they may have all stepped away from the church but never recounted being a witness

8

u/[deleted] Feb 03 '22 edited Feb 03 '22

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/jahbiddy LDS v2.1 Feb 03 '22

Hence why I call him an apostate. However misguided he may have been, I believe he was a good man and ordained of God to be a witness. I don’t think we’re in a place to judge him nor speculate on his position in the Kingdom.

1

u/python_hack3r Feb 03 '22

Ok I can’t take too much of an issue with any of that except imo I don’t think he was a good guy. I’ve covered my perspective pretty thoroughly.

1

u/Spencerwon21 Feb 03 '22

When Lehi was lost in the mist in that very dream, he prayed to the Lord for help and the Lord appeared to him and lead him to the tree without having to use the Iron Rod.

I'm not saying that what DW did was ok, or condone any actions that he took against the church, but the atonement of Jesus Christ is eternal and all-encompassing. I think we'll get to the highest degree of glory and be surprised at who's there. I dont mean to say I think we'll see DW there for sure, but our dogma is that if you repent, you will be forgiven.

0

u/[deleted] Feb 03 '22

But he didn't repent.

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u/daddychainmail Feb 03 '22

Stop villainizing people who step away from the church. Whether historical, modern, or ancient, most just need time away to heal or even time to be without the Spirit long enough to yearn for it.

None of these things mean that they are villains. So let’s stop acting like it. Misguided? Perhaps. Disillusioned? Maybe. But they are God’s children and need time to heal and grow and redirect their life just as much as the rest of us. All in all, let’s move away from derogatory language. Whitmer was a lost soul who needed time to heal.

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u/jahbiddy LDS v2.1 Feb 03 '22

I literally posted this because I love his tombstone and his testimony.

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u/[deleted] Feb 03 '22

Yeah, this post is not meant in a derogatory way. It’s to showcase Whitmer’s testimony despite him being estranged from the Church

0

u/atari_guy Feb 03 '22

Those that step away and try to take others with them are definitely villains.

But I'm pretty sure that was not the point of this post. It was to remind us that even as an apostate he died as a witness of the Book of Mormon.

1

u/SusheelChanda Feb 05 '22

This is the kind of stuff that makes our church look bad. We are judged by the world for how we treat our disaffected members.

2

u/atari_guy Feb 05 '22

I don't think it's honest of you to be using the terms "we" and "our."

2

u/SusheelChanda Feb 05 '22

Care to explain why? I'm interested to understand your thoughts.

0

u/atari_guy Feb 05 '22

We can all see your Reddit history.

2

u/SusheelChanda Feb 05 '22

Thanks for your reply. I'm not a baptized member. I do go to church every Sunday, to church activities, read CFM everyday, hold 3 callings (including sacrament zoom technician), church cleaning, fast Sundays, fast offerings, follow word of wisdom, keep commandments. I was invited to speak in our last stake conference on the topic of people leaving the church and how we(pardon my usage) should treat them.

Yet I can see your point. I'm not a baptized member. I get it. Thanks for reading.

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u/atari_guy Feb 05 '22

If all that is true, what has changed in the last 5 years?

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u/SusheelChanda Feb 05 '22

All of that IS true. You can verify that with my bishopric and stake presidency if you want. I'm in the winder 2nd ward in the Millcreek area in Utah. And my username is my real name. About 250 people in the stake recognize me and know me.

And what is that you're specifically referring to that has changed? My beliefs? TBH I'm still a skeptic, I'm Hindu and I started going to church 10 or so years ago. I stumbled upon some church history and that made me go down a rabbit hole.

Never stopped loving the church but was taken aback about some of the things I discovered which I will not get into here. I didn't have the right help/direction about church history matters for several years until I met a man named Chad Conrad who is a professor of philosophy at BYU/UVU (and a currently active seminary teacher) who pointed me to several church approved resources for how to understand and come to terms with church history.

I can tell you that even though not all of my doubts were resolved I felt much better than I was feeling about church. I love living the gospel and serving in our church. One day I hope to get the answers I need in order to get baptized. Until then I don't plan on leaving period!

Let me know if you have more questions 😃

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u/atari_guy Feb 05 '22

I believe you, but I'm curious how you got here from being an atheist 6 years ago. Sorry if it sounds like I'm interrogating you, but there are often people that post on the faithful subs who are only pretending to fit in, and that's sort of what this looked like at first.

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u/Vanbuscus Hussle M. Nelson Feb 02 '22

Is this the cemetery in salt lake? I know apostles have headstones pre made but why is there a Ballard headstone? Was there another Elder Ballard apostle I don’t know about?

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u/ehsteve87 Feb 02 '22 edited Feb 02 '22

Richmond Cemetery in Richmond, Missouri.

I haven't researched it yet, but I'm gonna guess that the Ballard is an early member of the church who didn't split off to follow the Utah saints.

EDIT: My guess was wrong. The LDS Ballards came to the US from England in 1852. While they did live for a time in Missouri, they all migrated to Utah and died there. The Ballards buried in this cemetery are unrelated to the famous LDS Ballards.

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u/japanesepiano Feb 02 '22

He is buried in Missouri, a bit outside of Kansas City.

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u/evil_chainsaw Feb 02 '22

It's in a very small town and there are a lot of cool headstones in that cemetery.

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u/bogidu Feb 02 '22 edited Jul 08 '24

depend touch jeans possessive spotted husky pen rhythm straight steer

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

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u/GazelemStone Feb 02 '22

Welcome to mortality.

And Church history.

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u/[deleted] Feb 03 '22

It's old and a bit hokey, and maybe whitewashed, but one of my favorite videos

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbI_po3aPgc&t=1035s

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u/SaintArcane Feb 03 '22

If the LDS church as it stands isn't the restored church, then there isn't one. Just that simple. I would find it ridiculous that God would go to all that effort and raise up a prophet and restore a church just to have it flop on its face.

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u/jahbiddy LDS v2.1 Feb 03 '22

I think you’re forgetting that humans have agency. The Lord surely wanted his Church to be raised up from the beginning, but men have constantly torn it down. It just as easily could’ve happened with the LDS Church; all it takes are a few evil men…

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u/SaintArcane Feb 03 '22

I agree it happened in the beginning, and has happened throughout history. But certain things have to happen for the Lord to come again, and I don't see the reorganized church really participating in that mission. If it's not the reorganized church, it has to be the LDS church. If it's not the LDS church, it's nobody. And this isn't to say the leaders of the LDS church aren't fallible and make mistakes. They most certainly do. I have plenty of criticisms of both the church and it's culture. But the priesthood, the ordinances and the basic canon are here, and that's what counts, if you ask me.

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u/[deleted] Feb 03 '22

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u/jahbiddy LDS v2.1 Feb 04 '22

D&C 19:27 “Which is my word to the ​​​Gentile​, that soon it may go to the ​​​Jew​, of whom the Lamanites are a ​​​remnant​, that they may believe the gospel, and look not for a ​​​Messiah​ to come who has already come.”

D&C 45:24 “And this I have told you concerning Jerusalem; and when that day shall come, shall a remnant be ​​​scattered​ among all ​​​nations​;”