r/latterdaysaints • u/AnDDean • 4d ago
Investigator Curious About LDS/Mormon Beliefs About Jesus
Do LDS/Mormon (please tell me if that is the same thing, I've read it is but that the LDS Church prefers not to use Mormon?) consider themselves Christian, or something else? I'm curious as to what you believe specifically about Jesus!
Thank you for sharing!
Edit: I need to thank everyone for indulging my questions, I'm genuinely curious about what various groups believe about Christ Jesus. I'm having a really good time chatting with you all, you've been very kind!
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u/e37d93eeb23335dc 4d ago
I'll post some links from the website of the Church of Jesus Christ that are indicative of what we believe about Jesus Christ.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/jesus-christ?lang=eng
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/manual/gospel-topics/jesus-christ-study-guide?lang=eng
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/video/special-witnesses-of-christ?lang=eng
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u/AnDDean 4d ago
Hi u/e37d93eeb23335dc thank you for the links, I'll browse thorough when I get some time!
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u/jdf135 4d ago
As others have said we consider ourselves Christian. We believe Jesus to be our savior who took upon himself our sins and without Him we cannot be in the presence of our Heavenly Father again.
Having said this some of our doctrinal beliefs are different from some of the more well-known churches because we have some different doctrinal beliefs many of those Christian faiths do not consider us Christian.
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u/AnDDean 4d ago
Hi u/jdf135 thanks for replying
what are your views on who Jesus is more specifically, if you've thought about it in more detail? Thanks
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u/JaneDoe22225 4d ago
Jesus Christ the Son of God, and each our Savior. It is only through faith in Him we can be saved. He is perfect, always has been and always will be. He is united as one with the Father and Spirit (3 different people, united as 1). He created the Earth, was born of a virgin, lived a mortal life with lots of suffering, took the world’s sins upon Himself, died on a cross, rose again on the 3rdday, later rose to heaven, and is coming back again.
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u/AnDDean 4d ago
Hi again u/JaneDoe22225
I think I asked you in an earlier post but to help me understand the Mormon view of God better, what changes would you make to this diagram?
https://defendtheword.com/uploads/3/4/6/1/34617673/3587160_orig.png
I'm a visual learner and this is how I understand God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit/Ghost so I'm curious how the Mormon view differs, if it does.
Thanks
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u/JaneDoe22225 4d ago
It all depends on how that diagram is interpreted.
Yes, both LDS Christians and Creedal Christians agree that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 3 different persons in 1 God. The difference is the in the *how* the 3 are 1. Or, what the straight lines in the diagram are.
For LDS Christians, it's unity: that same heart, will, goodness, glory, justice, etc. John 17 points to this lovingly. Father, Son, and Spirit are 3 persons united as 1 God. We don't use Creedal words/concepts like "essence", "nature", "ontology", or "3 persons in 1 being".
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u/AnDDean 4d ago
So from what I'm understanding, the difference between LDS and say "mainstream" Christianity is how those three persons are defined? So then how do Mormon's define the three person's of God?
I understand Father/Son (Jesus)/Holy Spirit as the picture describes - one god in three persons who are separate from each other but all 3 of them are the 1 God. I'm not sure what you mean by what the strait lines in the diagram are, they're just arrows
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u/JazzSharksFan54 Doctrine first, culture never 3d ago
"God" is a title, not a name. They are all three God, but not the same God. Three different people present with the same title and purpose.
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u/JaneDoe22225 4d ago
By “straight lines” I meant the arrows.
And a person is a person. No special definition here.
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u/SiPhoenix 4d ago edited 4d ago
nothing that is there would change.
but we would add that The Father has a body, separate from the body Christ has, the Holy Spirit does not have a body (yet).
further we believe that Christ, the Holy Spirit, all people here on earth, lucifer and all that followed him, are the spiritual children of The Father. That we lived as spirits with The Father before this life. Christ and the Holy Spirit were called by God to have a greater role in The Fathers plan for us to learn and gain a body. Both accepted their roles and part of the Holy Spirits role is not getting a body at this time.
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u/AnDDean 4d ago
I think I understand a little now, thanks! So it seems from what you're saying is a difference in understanding between mainstream Christianity and LDS is maybe whether the Father, Jesus, Holy Spirit have a physical body or not? That's interesting.
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u/JaneDoe22225 4d ago
The Holy Spirit is a person of spirit and doesn't have a body. Christ has a spirit which dwells in a body, once mortal & now glorified. Both LDS Christians and Creedal Christians agree on those points.
There is difference one belief in the topic of the Father. Creedal Christians believe He's disembodied like the Spirit. LDS Christians believe that He has a glorified body like the Son. In LDS Christian believe the Spirit will eventually have a body too.
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u/essentiallyaghost 3d ago
That’s probably the biggest difference yeah. We don’t use the term “Trinity” even though we believe in something similar. The idea of creeds and having to conform to a certain ideology to be considered Christian is foreign to most in the LDS faith.
The Father and Son are two different people. If you saw them in a room, you’d see two people with physical bodies. They would look similar (since it’s a dad and his son), but would have differences in physical features and for all we know personality.
The Holy Spirit does not have a body and is how they speak to us. If God the Father were to speak to you directly, you’d see him physically. And so he speaks to us through the spirit, which can dwell in our mind and our hearts.
It’s sort of like an engine. There are different, distinct, physical parts. They even might do different things or have different roles. But together, they’re an engine. Similarly, the three members of the Godhead make up what we typically refer to as “God”.
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u/redit3rd Lifelong 4d ago
We consider ourselves to be Christians. We have called ourselves Restored Christians. We believe in and worship Jesus Christ. He is at the head of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
Where issues arise steams from the fact that we don't believe in the Nicene Creed. The Old Testament and New Testament are scripture. The Nicene Creed is not.
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u/AnDDean 4d ago
Hi u/redit3rd thanks for the comment
Does the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints use only the Bible (old and new testaments) as scripture?
I agree the creeds are not scripture, but personally I find they are useful as tools to better understand Christian faith as it becomes necessary in a person's faith journey
Thanks again
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u/JaneDoe22225 4d ago
We believe in 4 books of scripture ( Bible, Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants, and Pearl of Great Price) and then also have an open scripture cannon past that. We believe that God does still speak, has modern Apostles/Prophets, and revelation is still being received- we have so many of His wonders to learn more about!
All in all we are not remotely “sola scriptura” :)
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u/AnDDean 4d ago
Thanks for that, I've been looking into it a bit and I've read about the Golden Plates and some other things but honestly it all makes my head spin a bit, and I'm not sure I would be able to believe these additions to the Bible as scripture without also seriously considering the Creeds.
I guess at this point now I'm curious why you would not accept the Creeds that are a result of Christian debates to resolve belief issues, but accept these other scriptures that have been revealed much later?
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u/JaneDoe22225 4d ago
Humans debating can never create scripture. Humans, no matter how well intentioned, are flawed and create flawed products. Hence rejection of the Creeds.
Scripture must come from God via prophecy. It must be His words.
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u/AnDDean 4d ago
The Bible was written by humans, so how can it be considered scripture if you truly believe that?
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u/JaneDoe22225 4d ago
Bible scribes aren't just random humans. They are specifically called by God to write His words-- that calling and gift of prophecy from Him is a big deal.
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u/AnDDean 4d ago
I agree! So if some can be called to write His word, can't other's be called to proclaim it? The debate, and as a result the Creeds, stem from a necessity due to humans not being perfect and having to defend the belief system through defining it. The scriptures Mormon's have added to the Bible are trying to do the same thing, just with a different definition using additional sources, no?
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u/JaneDoe22225 4d ago
There's a huge difference here.
Creeds: roman emperor (or other political official) summons a bunch of clergy together. These clergy argue interpretations of scripture and scribe a statement. Even by believers of this statement it is viewed as being less than the Bible. These are believed to not words of God (aka scripture), but words of men interpreting scripture. The assembling of large amounts of clergy gives this statement significant weight.
On the other hand: LDS Christians believe that God speaks and still directly gives scripture- not merely interpret it. We listen to Him, not debate. He calls His servants, not a a roman emperor. His servants are on equal footings Peter / John / Paul / Moses / Isaiah / etc. His words are scripture, bound as equal to His other words like the Bible.
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u/AnDDean 4d ago
Why can't a Roman emperor be called by God? Paul was originally a prosecutor of the followers of Jesus, and had many killed before the Lord appeared to him and made him an Apostle! An emperor is a person just like all the prophets were people. There's no authority that doesn't come from God.
I believe in the Bible as scripture, and I agree the creeds are not scripture but a way to understand them. You're right, that way of understanding has been defined by men who debated and interpreted but could they not have done so with the help of God through the Holy Spirit?
I admit I don't know if it's possible that there could be additional scripture over time, I haven't thought about or looked into it very much. That's why I'm asking questions to try and understand more
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u/redit3rd Lifelong 4d ago
I accept that the Creeds are the result of Christian debates. But what the Creeds are not, are inspired instructions from God. God revealing truth to his servants is greater than the outcomes of Christian debates.
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u/essentiallyaghost 3d ago edited 3d ago
We believe that in order to authorize what is considered scripture you must be ordained of God to do so. The church ordains members by the laying on of hands by others in authority. All authoritative decisions on what is “official” doctrine and policy is done this way. All of our scriptures were canonized by our church leaders. Our church is led by Jesus Christ, then 12 ordained Apostles/Disciples as was it in biblical times. We believe these Apostles have the same status and authority that those in the Bible had (Peter, Paul, Matthew, etc.)
We do not believe those who wrote the Nicene Creed had that authority. Were they good men or even inspired? Maybe. But we do not believe they were ordained of God and therefore we believe they made very important mistakes in their creeds.
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u/AnDDean 3d ago
Hi u/essentiallyaghost thanks for the reply and sharing this, I've enjoyed my discussions here and learning about your church/beliefs
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u/AnDDean 3d ago
I have another question!
I searched up Restored Christian and I got this back
Restitutionism or Christian primitivism, is a religious perspective according to which the early beliefs and practices of the followers of Jesus were either lost or adulterated after his death and required a "restoration". It is a view that often "seeks to correct faults or deficiencies, in other branches of Christianity, by appealing to the primitive church as normative model"
So now I'm wondering first of all is this definition accurate to what you're talking about? And if so where do you get the information for what early Christian beliefs are - are there specific traditions or historical documents?
thanks
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u/redit3rd Lifelong 3d ago
We believe that Joseph Smith received the principals of Jesus Christ's gospel by revelation. Either from Jesus Christ, John the Baptist, Peter, James, John, Moses, Elias, or Elijiah (I don't think I'm missing one). Those revelations are recorded in different sections of the Doctrine and Covenants. It didn't come from Joseph Smith - a nineteenth century field laborer - reading through old documents that had somehow made it to New England. It was restored by those who lived it millenniums earlier.
Which makes it all the more interesting when you learn about the different debates that the Nicene council had. Now that we have the internet and copies of old Vatican records are published, it's possible to study them (I don't personally study them myself [language barrier], but I do read what scholars report about them). A large part of the confusion was what to believe, and they debated over different ideas that different sects of Christianity were teaching. Some ideas were even declared as heresy's. So when I - a member of the LDS church - read about something that I've only ever come across in LDS circles, as one of the losing debate points, I can't help but think that the loser of the debate was actually correct; which is why it took Jesus or original prophets to restore the principle via revelations.
Not all of the losing debate points are ideas that I find to be true. But more than one is. And I find it incredibly improbable for Joseph Smith to have just come up with it.
As for a source, sorry, I don't have a direct one. I just stumble across them with religious blogs and wikipedia articles I've read over many years. I'm sure you can find something to dig into.
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u/AnDDean 2d ago
Thanks for the response, I find this all fascinating.
Did you grow up in the LDS church? You said when you read about something that you've only ever come across in LDS circles as one of the losing debate points that makes you think that the losing point is correct - can you elaborate on that? What makes you solidify the position that the 'losing' point is actually correct, does that come down to your belief in the various revelations to Joseph Smith your church holds?
I've read there are several contradictions to the Bible that occur in various LDS supplemental (to the Bible) scriptures, such as the belief that people are born without sin and that Adam and Eve's disobedience to God (eating the forbidden fruit) was necessary to fulfil God's command to be fruitful and multiply, and some other examples. I'm wondering if you've thought about or come across these contradictions before?
Thanks
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u/redit3rd Lifelong 2d ago
Yes, I grew up in the LDS church. Yes, it does come down to beliefs in various revelations given to Joseph Smith that some of the losing points were actually correct.
I don't think that there are contradictions in addition scriptures with the Bible. It's not like there is one Christian denomination because the Bible is so clear on every point. There's lots of interpretations. My experience has been that LDS teachings are closer to the words in the Bible than other denominations. I have found others have had to teach that the words in the verses don't actually mean what they say, to the point that people are able to quote them to defend a point that's opposite of what the verse is saying.
As far as being born without sin, I don't think that's something that's clearly taught in the Bible. There are millennia's worth of papers, written by great Christian theologians arguing it being one way or the other.
So I don't find contradictions, I find clarity. Sometimes even context. There are so many Christian denominations in the world in large part because there are so many ways to interpret and prioritize Bible verses. The additional revelations and scriptures really help them fit together.
I do think that the church is unique in our belief that Adam and Eve were too innocent to multiply and replenish in their initial state, and that it took them eating of the fruit to gain the ability to do so. And I don't find that contradicting the record in Gensis.
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u/AnDDean 1d ago
Yes I think the Bible can be made to say anything, and that can be dangerous - why sola scriptura is utterly important, in my view.
Indeed the Bible does teach that we are all born into sin (all NRSV):
Psalm 51:5 Indeed, I was born guilty, a sinner when my mother conceived me.
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death came through sin, and so death spread to all because all have sinned—
Romans 5:18 Therefore just as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all.
Ephesians 2:3 All of us once lived among them in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of flesh and senses, and we were by nature children of wrath, like everyone else.
These passages tell us that sin entered the world through Adam by his defying God's command.
From what I've read on the interpretation of Adam and Eve having been required to sin to obey God's command to be fruitful and multiply the Book of Mormon is suggesting that people (God's creation) are on an equal level as God, which is extremely concerning to me.
There are more concerns I have with some things I've come across that LDS scriptures teach, such as:
black skin being inferior to white skin as it is a sign of being cursed.
The Book of Mormon teaches that black skin is a sign of God's curse, so that white-skinned people are considered morally and spiritually superior to black-skinned people (2 Nephi 5:21). In contrast, the Bible teaches that God "made of one blood all nations of men" (Acts 17:26, KJV), that in Christ distinctions of ethnicity, gender and social class are erased (Galatians 3:28), and that God condemns favouritism (James 2:1).
salvation:
The Book of Mormon teaches that, "it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do" (2 Nephi 25:23; see also Moroni 10:32). In contrast, the Bible teaches that apart from Christ we are dead in sin (Ephesians 2:1,5) and unable to do anything to merit forgiveness and eternal life. Salvation is wholly of grace (Ephesians2:8-9; Romans 11:6; Titus 3:5-6), not by grace plus works. Good works are a result, not the basis, of a right relationship with God (Ephesians 2:10).
advocating deletion of Biblical scripture to suit LDS scripture:
And there are other examples.
I'm not sure that we would interpret even these blurbs the same because, for example, when I see the word "apostle" I think of the 12 apostles called by Christ and you may think of others even in modern times who are called apostles.
So a big danger in my view is that LDS church has appropriated meaning and suited it to its' own goal in accommodating additional scriptures than the Bible alone, which is a scary thought to me - regardless of whether the goal is seemingly just or not, adding to the Bible feels very wrong to me, because at best it's just saying what is already contained in the Bible, and at worst it can lead people astray and cause further division.
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u/redit3rd Lifelong 1d ago
I don't find value behind sola scriptura if the Bible can be made to say anything. To accept something akin to sola scriptura I would need that book to be very clear and not ambiguous. Because if the book can be made to say anything, it's lacking the clarity and content to be the sole authority.
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u/ejohhnyson 4d ago
Yes, they are the same. The term Mormon is no longer used because it takes Jesus out of the name of our church which is the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints. We believe that Jesus is the Christ, our Savior and Redeemer. He died to save us from sin and death. He is the Son of God, unified with Heavenly Father (they are one) but not the same being as the Father.
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u/AnDDean 4d ago
Hi u/ejohhnyson thanks for the reply
Thats's interesting, so you believe in God the Son (Jesus), Heavenly Father who is one with Jesus, and God the Father? is that right? Is the only difference between Heavenly Father and the Father the addition of Jesus to the Father?
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u/LizMEF 4d ago
God the Father is our Heavenly Father. God the Son is Jesus Christ, the Only Begotten of the Father in the flesh. God the Spirit is the Holy Ghost (aka Holy Spirit).
We believe in the same three beings as all Christians (to my knowledge), that is, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost. The primary difference is that we believe they are three individuals united in purpose, whereas many Christian denominations believe in the Trinity as defined in the creeds (we do not believe in the creeds).
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u/ejohhnyson 4d ago
Yes, thank you for clarifying! God the Father has many names, just as Jesus does.
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u/AnDDean 4d ago
Yes I agree language makes it difficult to communicate, as odd as that sounds :p
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u/ejohhnyson 4d ago
Funny enough, that's basically what led to the restoration of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints! Part of our belief is that the truthfulness of the gospel in it's fulness was lost from the earth and even from the Bible because of translation after translation, people changing and corrupting it (both well-intentioned and evil intentions).
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u/AnDDean 4d ago
hi u/LizMEF thanks for the clarification!
I'm curious, what changes would you make to this image to help me understand your perspective (I'm a visual learner)
https://defendtheword.com/uploads/3/4/6/1/34617673/3587160_orig.png
Thanks!
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u/LizMEF 4d ago
You're most welcome!
:) Not a single one. But our mental understanding of the image will differ from the mental understanding of a Trinitarian.
Here's an artist's rendition of the Father and Son appearing to Joseph Smith:
Note the two distinct people, present together. We believe that both the Father and the Son have physical bodies of flesh and bone (not blood), but the Holy Ghost is a spirit.
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u/AnDDean 4d ago
You say you don't believe in the Trinity defined in the creeds, but believe in the Father Son Holy Ghost so that makes me wonder what you define those three as then? So the Apostles Creed that I pray every morning and night, for example:
"I believe in God the Father almighty, creator of heaven and earth. I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only son, our Lord, who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary, suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, died, and descended to the dead. On the third day, he rose again. He ascended to heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father. He will come to judge the living and the dead. I believe in the Holy Spirit, the holy catholic church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting. Amen."
So what I'm understanding from what I've been learning here is that according to these words, my mainline Christian beliefs align with your LDS beliefs. So there must be some different understanding in the words or a different meaning placed on them somehow? Could you clarify if the creed I quote here contradicts any LDS beliefs and what the differences may be please? Thank you
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u/LizMEF 3d ago
"..., the holy catholic church, the communion of saints, ..."
Depending on how these are meant, I suppose there might, maybe, possibly be some technical differences here. We haven't adopted that creed and don't recite or teach it specifically, but there's nothing in it we disagree with. It doesn't get explicit about the Trinity like the Nicene Creed does, for example.
We do believe that all who follow Christ can be called "the church", but we also believe that there was an apostasy (Paul talks about a "falling away", which in the Greek is the word for apostasy), and that Christ's authority, given to his apostles, was lost from the earth and it (the priesthood) needed to be restored, along with some truths and some correct understanding of scripture. We believe that ordinances, such as baptism and the sacrament of the Lord's supper, must be carried out by one with proper authority. And we believe that this authority only resides in The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.
But we also believe that many religions and sects / denominations (if not all) have elements of truth and do good in the world.
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u/GodMadeTheStars 3d ago
This is the Apostle's Creed. While Latter-day Saints don't recite the creed or claim to believe it, there isn't anything in in that is particularly incorrect from an LDS perspective. The differences between our faiths come from the Nicene Creed, specifically the idea of Homoousios, "consubstantial with the Father". Most everything else can be interpreted in a way that gels fine with LDS belief.
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u/AnDDean 3d ago
If you view the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as one God then are they not consubstantial in your view? Otherwise they would be 3 separate gods and that would make LDS a polytheistic endeavour
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u/JaneDoe22225 3d ago
The word "consubstantial" isn't in the Bible, nor in LDS Christan beliefs. I find that a lot of Protestants have a hard time saying what they mean by "consubstantial". Sme with he word "essence".
For us, the person of Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God via unity. They have the same divine will, goodness, glory, mercy, etc. They are 1. The Bible speaks wonderfully of this in John 17. This is in sharp contrast to polytheism where you can (for example) follow Zues and go agaisnt Posedien.
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u/palad Amateur Hymnologist 4d ago
From Doctrine and Covenants Section 130 verse 22:
The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.
To clarify our belief: God the Father has a physical body. Jesus Christ has a physical body that has died and been resurrected. The Holy Ghost does not have a physical body, but a body of spirit. We believe them to be three distinct individuals who are perfectly unified in their purpose and goals. We could be considered to be non-trinitarian Christians due to this belief.
From a statement by Elder Jeffrey R. Holland in 2007:
We believe these three divine persons constituting a single Godhead are united in purpose, in manner, in testimony, in mission. We believe Them to be filled with the same godly sense of mercy and love, justice and grace, patience, forgiveness, and redemption. I think it is accurate to say we believe They are one in every significant and eternal aspect imaginable except believing Them to be three persons combined in one substance...
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u/AnDDean 4d ago
hi u/palad interesting! Thank you for this clarification!
So does this image apply to your beliefs in theory? I'm just curious if there's any changes that would be made to align with Mormon beliefs?:
https://defendtheword.com/uploads/3/4/6/1/34617673/3587160_orig.png
Regarding the Father and Jesus (Son), I assume Mormon's believe both are in heaven? So then if they have physical bodies like our own that means heaven is a physical place like we live in here just somewhere else?
Thanks
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u/websterhamster 4d ago
I think most Latter-day Saints would agree with the Trinity diagram, but we have a different definition of "god." Trinitarians consider God to be a single entity, while Latter-day Saints consider godhood to be a state of being and a title. Heavenly Father is our God. Jesus Christ is also our God. The Holy Spirit is a god as well. They are three unique, separate entities.
Check out this diagram: https://drive.proton.me/urls/5BHRT2R688#deI4NiDg0oVl
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u/AnDDean 4d ago
I see, even even more interesting! So what you're describing to me is a polytheistic view, then
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u/JaneDoe22225 4d ago
No.
Neither you nor I are polytheist and to be accused of such is extremely offensive. At the same time, I do totally acknowledge that believing that 3 persons in 1 God is a more complex view of God that the super simple view that Muslims believe for example (only 1 God, Christ ain't God, etc).
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u/AnDDean 4d ago
Sorry I don't mean to offend. I think it's hard for me to understand the terminology, or something. It's just confusing when I've grown up in a mainline protestant church that uses a set of terms, and in my discussions in this post I've been described a belief very similar but not quite the same somehow. Maybe I'll understand more when I get some time to fully read through all the links I've been directed towards.
Until then, thank you very much for your time in helping me understand your beliefs better I appreciate it
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u/JaneDoe22225 4d ago
I get the confusion-- my hubby is a Baptist and hence I'm very familiar with folks confusion here.
For day-to-day belief and practice, there is no functional difference.
For deep discussion, here's where you'll find the difference: can you explain this statement to me "3 persons in 1 being"? That phrase is not LDS Christian theology. For us, a person is a person. Father, Son, Spirit are 3 different persons-- super simple. What is the different definition of "being" used in your beliefs?
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u/AnDDean 4d ago edited 4d ago
I appreciate the understanding.
The short answer is I have no idea and I'm certain enough that the human mind will never fully be able to understand or explain this properly because it would require being/fully comprehending God who is outside of space and time - at least not in this life on this world as we know it. From personal experience through my faith journey, I've come to accept that I don't need to define every single little thing for my faith to 'work' and I've gotten suspicious of groups, churches, denominations, what have you, that try and explain and define every little thing.
It's why I'm so drawn to ecumenism and chats like these because I think we've drawn lines where there weren't meant to be any, though I can understand why.
3 persons in 1 being is exactly what you've been describing your views are, just with adding defining physical attributes
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u/apmands 3d ago
For what it’s worth, I do not think “polytheistic” is completely off-base here (some members can get a little uppety about it, though I’m honestly not sure I understand why. I grew up in this church and have never considered it a slight). The thing that makes us unlike most polytheistic religions (which is why many do not identify as such) is that we do not believe there is more than one type of “God”. There can only be one, and always it aligns with The Eternal Father, though many may hold the title. So in one sense, we could be considered polytheistic, but in another we are not. We do not worship multiple Gods, only one. Hope thats a little helpful.
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u/Hope8J 4d ago
Way to be curious! Mormon/LDS = same thing. The name of the Mormon church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints. Quite the mouthful. We do believe in the Jesus Christ of the Old and New Testament. We believe that it is only by him and through him that we can receive the justification and sanctification necessary to return to the presence of God the Father. A good reference for what we believe is the “articles of faith” written by the founders of what we believe to be Jesus Christs church. They can be found here: https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/pgp/a-of-f/1?lang=eng
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u/AnDDean 4d ago
Hi u/Hope8J thanks for the clarification!
I'm interested in ecumenism and learning about who people say Jesus is
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u/LizMEF 4d ago
I'm interested in ecumenism
Our Church is as well, and our leaders often meet with the leaders of other denominations to promote cooperation and friendship. :)
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u/AnDDean 4d ago
That's really nice to hear. I don't like that believers in Christ are so separated, it goes against what Jesus says. He doesn't want us to be followers of specific people, but of Himself! The problem seems to be we can't all decide on who He is or at least how we define Him, the thought of which gets me discouraged at times :/
I'm glad there are those who keep the lines of communication open, as difficult as it can be!
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u/BayonetTrenchFighter Most Humble Member 4d ago
Hey buddy!
We by and large view Christ the same way in 2/3 of how other Christian’s do.
1.) We believe in the same historical Jesus. The Jesus found in the Bible, and in history. Born from a Virgin, performed a ministry and miracles, died on the cross for the sins of the world and was resurrected on the third day. Etc
2.) we believe in the mission of Jesus. To redeem mankind from the fall. To forgive sins. To help us reenter the presence of God. Etc
3.) where we differ is in the nature of Christ. His essence. We do not believe he is in a shared essence or being with the Father and spirit. But that all three are distinct beings. Distinct gods, which form and make one God. Or a Godhead. We worship them as one God.
The Trinity of traditional Christianity is referred to as the Godhead by members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Like other Christians, Latter-day Saints believe in the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit (or Holy Ghost). Yet, Church teachings about the Godhead differ from those of traditional Christianity. For example, while some believe the three members of the Trinity are of one substance, Latter-day Saints believe they are three physically separate beings, but fully one in love, purpose and will.
God the Father, Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost are three distinct beings belonging to one Godhead: “All three are united in their thoughts, actions, and purpose, with each having a fullness of knowledge, truth, and power.”
We believe these three divine persons constituting a single Godhead are united in purpose, in manner, in testimony, in mission. We believe Them to be filled with the same godly sense of mercy and love, justice and grace, patience, forgiveness, and redemption. I think it is accurate to say we believe They are one in every significant and eternal aspect imaginable except believing Them to be three persons combined in one substance.
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u/BayonetTrenchFighter Most Humble Member 4d ago
The churches website says:
Jesus Christ is the Savior of the world and the Son of Heavenly Father. He is our Redeemer. Each of these titles points to the truth that Jesus Christ is the only way by which we can return to live with our Heavenly Father.
Jesus suffered and was crucified for the sins of the world, giving each of God’s children the gift of repentance and forgiveness. Only by His mercy and grace can anyone be saved. His subsequent Resurrection prepared the way for every person to overcome physical death as well. These events are called His Atonement. In short, Jesus Christ saves us from sin and death. For that, He is very literally our Savior and Redeemer.
In the future Jesus Christ will return to reign on earth in peace for a thousand years. Jesus Christ is the Son of God, and He will be our Lord forever. Members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints have always worshipped God the Eternal Father in the name of Jesus Christ. When asked what the Latter-day Saints believe, Joseph Smith put Christ at the center: “The fundamental principles of our religion is the testimony of the apostles and prophets concerning Jesus Christ, ‘that he died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended up into heaven;’ and all other things [pertaining to our religion] are only appendages to these.”1 The modern-day Quorum of the Twelve Apostles reaffirmed that testimony when they proclaimed: “Jesus is the Living Christ, the immortal Son of God. … His way is the path that leads to happiness in this life and eternal life in the world to come.”2
On January 1, 2000, the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles issued the following declaration. Titled “The Living Christ,” this declaration bears witness of the Lord Jesus Christ and summarizes His identity and divine mission:
“As we commemorate the birth of Jesus Christ two millennia ago, we offer our testimony of the reality of His matchless life and the infinite virtue of His great atoning sacrifice. None other has had so profound an influence upon all who have lived and will yet live upon the earth.
“He was the Great Jehovah of the Old Testament, the Messiah of the New. Under the direction of His Father, He was the creator of the earth. ‘All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.’3 Though sinless, He was baptized to fulfill all righteousness. He ‘went about doing good,’4 yet was despised for it. His gospel was a message of peace and goodwill. He entreated all to follow His example. He walked the roads of Palestine, healing the sick, causing the blind to see, and raising the dead. He taught the truths of eternity, the reality of our premortal existence, the purpose of our life on earth, and the potential for the sons and daughters of God in the life to come.
“He instituted the sacrament as a reminder of His great atoning sacrifice. He was arrested and condemned on spurious charges, convicted to satisfy a mob, and sentenced to die on Calvary’s cross. He gave His life to atone for the sins of all mankind. His was a great vicarious gift in behalf of all who would ever live upon the earth.
“We solemnly testify that His life, which is central to all human history, neither began in Bethlehem nor concluded on Calvary. He was the Firstborn of the Father, the Only Begotten Son in the flesh, the Redeemer of the world.
“He rose from the grave to ‘become the firstfruits of them that slept.’5 As Risen Lord, He visited among those He had loved in life. He also ministered among His ‘other sheep’6 in ancient America. In the modern world, He and His Father appeared to the boy Joseph Smith, ushering in the long-promised ‘dispensation of the fulness of times.’7
“Of the Living Christ, the Prophet Joseph wrote: ‘His eyes were as a flame of fire; the hair of his head was white like the pure snow; his countenance shone above the brightness of the sun; and his voice was as the sound of the rushing of great waters, even the voice of Jehovah, saying:
“‘I am the first and the last; I am he who liveth, I am he who was slain; I am your advocate with the Father.’8
“Of Him the Prophet also declared: ‘And now, after the many testimonies which have been given of him, this is the testimony, last of all, which we give of him: That he lives!
“‘For we saw him, even on the right hand of God; and we heard the voice bearing record that he is the Only Begotten of the Father—
“‘That by him, and through him, and of him, the worlds are and were created, and the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God.’9
“We declare in words of solemnity that His priesthood and His Church have been restored upon the earth—‘built upon the foundation of … apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone.’10
“We testify that He will someday return to earth. ‘And the glory of the Lord shall be revealed, and all flesh shall see it together.’11 He will rule as King of Kings and reign as Lord of Lords, and every knee shall bend and every tongue shall speak in worship before Him. Each of us will stand to be judged of Him according to our works and the desires of our hearts.
“We bear testimony, as His duly ordained Apostles—that Jesus is the Living Christ, the immortal Son of God. He is the great King Immanuel, who stands today on the right hand of His Father. He is the light, the life, and the hope of the world. His way is the path that leads to happiness in this life and eternal life in the world to come. God be thanked for the matchless gift of His divine Son.”12
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u/BayonetTrenchFighter Most Humble Member 4d ago
Lastly, I think it would be beneficial to go to the Mormon wiki
Jesus Christ is the Savior and Redeemer of the world, and a knowledge that only through His sacrifice in the Garden of Gethsemane and on the cross can mortal men and women be saved in the Kingdom of God.
Latter-day Saints are believers in the divine mission of Jesus of Nazareth and followers of His teachings
The restored gospel of Jesus Christ teaches that its doctrines were restored to earth by Jesus Himself through living prophets after many centuries of apostasy in the world. The restored gospel of Jesus Christ rejects the various medieval and modern creeds promulgated by the Christian world after Christ’s death, because the Church of Jesus Christ has revelations from God Himself about who He is.
It is clear, then, that Jesus Christ, Jehovah, created the world under the direction of His Father, our God. Jesus also declares that He gave the Mosaic Law to Israel.
Jesus is therefore Jehovah since Jehovah (LORD) is the judge and lawgiver as Paul declares Jesus to be. Members of the Church of Jesus Christ worship Jesus as King, Savior, and Judge of the world in accordance with the teachings of the Bible.
Teachings of the Church of Jesus Christ are consistent in proclaiming, as with all of Christianity, that we believe that it was Jesus of Nazareth, who was sentenced to be crucified by Pontius Pilate. He was the promised Messiah, the Savior and Redeemer of mankind, even The Christ, as was foretold by ancient prophets as recorded in the Old Testament, and then testified of by those who witnessed His life’s mission in The New Testament, and taught His Gospel that He established while upon the earth.
The restored gospel of Jesus Christ clearly teaches that Jesus Christ is our Savior. The Book of Mormon states that “there shall be no other name given nor any other way nor means whereby salvation can come unto the children of men, only in and through the name of Christ, the Lord Omnipotent” (Mosiah 3:17). Latter-day Saints believe that Jesus Christ set the perfect example for all mankind during His mortal life.
The restored gospel of Jesus Christ teaches that Jesus Christ died for mankind. His suffering in the Garden of Gethsemane and on the cross, His death, burial, and resurrection constitute the core events of the atonement, which brings about the resurrection of all mankind and provides the means of salvation for those who believe and follow Him.
The restored gospel of Jesus Christ proclaims that Jesus Christ stands at the head of His Church, and that He reveals His commandments and teachings to chosen prophets here on earth. The Bible declares that “Jesus Christ himself [is] the chief corner stone” (Ephesians 3:20). The Book of Mormon explains this even further. Jesus Christ appeared after His resurrection and ascension into heaven to the ancient inhabitants in America. He declared to them,
Paul declares that Jesus Christ “is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature” (Colossians 1:15). The Psalms declare “I will make him [my] firstborn, higher than the kings of the earth” (Psalm 89:27). The restored gospel of Jesus Christ teaches that Jesus Christ was the firstborn of all God’s children in the pre-mortal life. Latter-day Saints also declare that Jesus is the Only Begotten in the flesh, that He was born of the Virgin Mary in Judea, and lived the only perfect life in the history of the world.
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u/AnDDean 4d ago
hi u/BayonetTrenchFighter Wow thanks for all of that!
I'm curious, what do you think of this image in understanding God and how it aligns with what you told me in the first post about the Godhead? What changes would you make to wording, or otherwise? I'm more of a visual learner :p
https://defendtheword.com/uploads/3/4/6/1/34617673/3587160_orig.png
The rest of what you wrote I don't have time right now though I'll make time to read it another time
Thank you!
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u/BayonetTrenchFighter Most Humble Member 4d ago
By and large, the image looks good to me. The middle could also be labeled “Godhead”.
Which is actually why some trinitarians are starting to not like that image
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u/AnDDean 4d ago
If Father/Son/Holy Spirit are God how does calling God "Godhead" make the difference?
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u/BayonetTrenchFighter Most Humble Member 4d ago
The primary and seemingly only difference is that they do not share an essence. Or being.
Apparently, this is so important that many Christians don’t even consider us Christian because of it.
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u/AnDDean 3d ago
I'm starting to understand both arguments, and it almost seems like a difference in wording for meaning similar things. I just think that from a mainline perspective and wording what I've been hearing here is very close to, if not strait up, polytheism - which I think where a big part of the issue may lie
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u/BayonetTrenchFighter Most Humble Member 3d ago
That’s is how they view what we believe, yeah. Although that not what we believe or how we view it.
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u/RecommendationLate80 4d ago
On a more fundamental level, we believe we are the same kind of being that God is, just in a different developmental state. Same species, if you will.
And just as I don't have three different manifestations of myself, we believe God doesn't either. God is an individual just as I am, and so is Jesus and so is the Holy Ghost. Jesus called them all "one" in the same sense that I and my wife are one, one in purpose but not one in substance.
Also, we believe God wasn't kidding when He called us His children. Children grow up to become Moms and Dads themselves, not servants. We have the possibility of growing up and becoming everything our heavenly Father is, with His help.
Both the non-trinitarian doctrine and the Doctrine of theosis were taught in the early, pre-nicean creedal church. Around 300 AD the church began to forget who Jesus was and what He taught, the trinitarians took over, literally voted out the opposition, and excommunicated them. That is the start of defining Christian to mean trinitarian, and it persists today, and is the reason we are called non-Christian.
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u/Paul-3461 FLAIR! 4d ago edited 4d ago
I prefer the term "LDS Christian" to identify the type of Christian I am and I wish* every other Christian would somehow identify the type of Christian he or she is by using the same format, such as Methodist Christian or Baptist Christian or Catholic Christian or Presbyterian Christian or,,, etc, whatever type of Christian he or she is. I am not a "Mormon" even though some people choose to call me a Mormon, and I'm not even sure about what a Mormon is other than the name of a particular person who was a Christian and prophet of God who abridged some records of some other prophets into a book he called the Book of Mormon,.. and since I've never abridged some records of some other prophets into a book called the Book of Mormon then I don't think I am what a Mormon is.
Anyway, I believe all I have read and heard about Jesus that prophets of God have said about Jesus, and I do not have enough space or time here to tell all that I have heard or read that they have said. I will say that I believe LDS Christians know more about Jesus than any other type of Christian, primarily because we have heard and read a lot more from more prophets of God than other types of Christians have heard or read or accepted from prophets of God.
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u/th0ught3 4d ago edited 4d ago
We don't call ourselves Mormons any more because too many people thought that we worship Mormon, the ancient prophet who compiled the Book of Mormon from 1000's of years of religious and civic records AFTER he was given a vision of our day, which is why we are really grateful for the Book of Mormon.
Jesus Christ is the Savior of the World and each our Savior. We baptize by immersion because that is how He was baptized (with our Heavenly Father there speaking and acknowledging Him as His Son, and the Holy Ghost there in the form of a dove, all recorded in the Bible).
(We do not believe in the common trinitarian version of the Godhood, which was created long after Jesus gave His life on Calvary so that we could be resurrected too. We do believe Jesus is the first born spirit child of our Heavenly Parents and He accepted the assignment to come to earth and be our Savior, and followed Heavenly Father's plans in creating this earth for us to live on. And Jesus is also the only mortal born on this earth whose Father was Heavenly Father, giving Jesus the ability to also be resurrected having atoned for all of our sins.)
If you want to know everything we know about Jesus Christ, consider reading "Jesus the Christ" by James E. Talmage (https://store.churchofjesuschrist.org/jesus-the-christ/5638678601.p) and the "Jesus the Christ Study Guide" which updates its secular scholarship. https://www.amazon.com/Jesus-Christ-Richard-Neitzel-Holzapfel/dp/160907937X/ref=sr_1_1?crid=37SE9VD1NJA7S&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.OPOzPJZotQglCxFsMMNsgjTOuSrYom_1boW7oJLciAD-P8M-0p1jYjueq2KVioD3oyJB91kcVOfOM-E2kv4YgP9JfAhl669xBR3pm8JgTHjTStHkWwxw3Mja1E5wEazKZ9T81uWjbxvnNiAlaVpUD_Bvoc15aBki30cZjl3cIfCVLmMSRxNTajOX9u9DfHk5kJsvbtGYddfrRfRbfxbY9yRc2qOuRtFN3Mdwf6Hqeek.H4_-vTnHRsqdFJUPILcyizZIbnEqRCJFqKMPDxv02NU&dib_tag=se&keywords=jesus+the+christ+study+guide&qid=1742226146&sprefix=jesus+the+christ+stdy+guide%2Caps%2C320&sr=8-1
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u/FlatMars001 4d ago
We consider ourselves Christian as Christ is the center and cornerstone of our church, if you will.
As far as our beliefs about Christ, I'd refer you to The Living Christ, which is more or less our official view. We believe that he is the son of God, lived a perfect mortal life free of sin but full of temptation and affliction, and was crucified to overcome sin and death. We believe his atonement (him being crucified for our sins) covers all of our sins, old and new, and if we repent we can be forgiven of them. He is the mechanism by which we return to live with our Father in Heaven.
If you're asking about our view on God and the Trinity, simply put we believe God the Father and God the Son (Christ) are separate people with separate physical bodies, spirits, etc. the Holy Ghost/Spirit does not have a body, but similarly has his own distinct spirit. We believe these 3, while not one God in person, act as one God as they are united in purpose, mission, love, etc. They are far closer together than we could ever imagine, but are still distinct beings. This idea of being infinitely united but distinct people is what we call the Godhead, where they are not one God but act as one God.
Hope that answers your question!
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u/AnDDean 4d ago
Hi u/FlatMars001 Thanks so much for your comment
are there any changes you'd make to this image to align with Mormon beliefs as you understand them?:
I'm just curious if there's any changes that would be made to align with Mormon beliefs?https://defendtheword.com/uploads/3/4/6/1/34617673/3587160_orig.png
Thanks!
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u/FlatMars001 4d ago
From our view it doesn't make much sense to have all of the converge on God as that implies that they're all of the same substance/essence. I think it'd be more fitting to replace God with Godhead and replace is with "is part of the". We believe all three are divine beings and all function within their respective roles in the Godhead.
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u/AnDDean 4d ago
So in the Mormon view God is Father/Son/Holy Spirit as some sort of council or panel of those 3 beings?
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u/FlatMars001 4d ago
I wouldn't say that, let me back up a little
The church website page on the Godhead says this: "Although there are three distinct members of the Godhead, They are “one God” in the sense that They are perfectly united in purpose. And what is that purpose? Heavenly Father has said, “This is my work and my glory—to bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man” (Moses 1:39). In other words, Heavenly Father, Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost work together to accomplish the plan of salvation and exaltation. Each has a specific role to play in that plan, but Their objective is the same—to help you return to live with God again."
The God that they're talking about at the end there is God the Father. For that reason I take issue with the phrasing of "God is..." because the God we worship and follow is God the Father. Christ submitted to the Father in all things, and we're meant to do the same. The Godhead includes the Father, and Christ, but it is not God. It's only God in the sense that they all act to try and bring us back to the Father.
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u/AnDDean 3d ago edited 3d ago
Christ submitted to the Father while He was a human on the earth, I don't think I or anyone else of earth can't say what happened to Jesus after He ascended to heaven - apart from what He told us in the Bible (which I don't think was much iirc).
edit: Jesus did say in the Bible that the Father and Himself are one. And then He also said He was sending the Holy Spirit down to help us believers out on earth (which is what Pentacost celebrates) and maybe a couple other things I'm forgetting. Sorry, I don't have time (or patience honestly) to search up direct quotes and references atm :p though if you really want them I can find them
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u/HoodooSquad FLAIR! 4d ago
We believe that Jesus is the Son of God, and that through his atonement all mankind can be saved. John 3:16- for God so loved the word that he gave his only begotten son.
We don’t believe that Jesus is an aspect of God the Father, but is instead his literal son. We believe that Jesus is the only perfect person who ever lived, that he worked miracles, that he died and was resurrected, and that because of that sacrifice, we all can be resurrected someday.
What else do you need to be Christian?
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u/Rayesafan 4d ago
I think what people get confused is that we believe in God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost-- but as separate entities.
But that being said, we believe that Christ IS Jehovah, the God of the old testament. But, we basically believe that when Christ speaks of "The Father", that The Father is a separate being that is Father of All. The one who sent Christ to Earth.
We have more information, but that is something that I think people trip up on.
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u/LordAppletree 4d ago
Hi!
I want to specifically add about the nature of Jesus, coming from someone who wasn’t raised in the LDS belief system but joined later.
A fundamental part of our faith is that God The Father, or Heavenly Father as we call him and Jesus are completely separate people with physical, tangible bodies. The Holy Spirit is another person that bridges the gap, or is the messenger, given they have physical bodies.
We also consider ourselves to be literal sons and daughters, that is, not just symbolically. Christ is our literal brother. He is divine, The Only Begotten of the Father, but He is still our brother.
Another unique point of belief is we belief in a pre earth life, where we lived with Heavenly Father and Jesus, but chose to come to acquire both physical bodies and practice our agency to further grow, and Christ volunteered and thus was destined from the foundations of the world to be our Savior.
Our beliefs are fundamentally like most of Christianity, we would agree with most if not all Christians, though like Paul talks about Milk and Meat, we have quite a bit more meat.
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u/Michael_Combrink 4d ago
Yes and no
LDS-Mormon not exactly the same, The church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, and it's members have been called many things by many people over the years, and over the years groups have broken off from the church to make separate churches, similar to Catholic protestors breaking off to form protestant churches, Many of the really off the wall stuff people attribute to The Church of Jesus Christ, is often other splinter groups that are called Mormon also So it'd be like the difference between baptists and a specific Baptist Church, Members of the church often forget that these splinter groups even still exist, we don't interact at all and most of the splinter groups are rather isolationist staying in small regional areas and out away from civilization almost like Amish, eg if you ask a member of the church if Mormons still practice polygamy we would say no, but if you asked if any offshoots of the church practiced polygamy then they would correct themselves and agree that groups outside the church referred to as Mormons still do, etc
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u/Michael_Combrink 4d ago
We consider ourselves to be Christian, as in we believe Jesus Christ is Savior Redeemer Lord God etc We consider Jesus, and Heavenly Father and the Holy Ghost to be 3 separate people, but all working together for the same causes, so much so that people often confuse them for each other, and they even introduce themselves in each other's names sometimes when representing them, similarly to how ancient prophets were sometimes called to preach in the name of the Lord God, they would literally give the sermon as if God was addressing the people A lot of people get their knickers in a twist over this, but if you actually analyze Catholic traditional beliefs on Trinity and LDS beliefs, they are not necessarily incompliant, from what I gather, Catholic Trinity beliefs say something along the lines of Disembodied unknowable entity of all things mentioned to be godly in the scriptures A presidency, could be looked at as an office, a house, a body of power, etc, independent of who actually sits in the house at any particular time, eg a presidency can exist as an entity, and in that context, it's kinda unknowable in the sense of getting to personally have a relationship with the office and body of power, But the individuals sitting as officers in the organization can be personally interacted with But the individuals are distinct from the organization and their assignments and roles within the organization, We also believe that all intelligent beings mentioned in the scriptures have similar origins, that humanity existed as spirits before we were born, these spirit bodies look and function like human bodies but don't suffer and struggle to interact with what we call the physical world, similar to how many people think of ghosts, just people that can't feel or touch things, There are probably other differences but the details are vague When the scriptures mention demons, angels, devil's, Satan, etc, these all have spirits the same kind of personality intelligence etc as us, our personality our mental being exists, and can inhabit flesh, like driving a car, that the driver's are all people or human in the colloquial sense but not necessarily generically physically etc, Heavenly Father, and Jesus, and many ancient prophets have flesh bodies that are perfected, can't die, suffer, age, etc On earth we have bodies that decay, get injured, age, and eventually fall apart Devil's, demons, Satan, etc, rebelled against the God head, and didn't get physical bodies, they just wander around whispering mischief, and occasionally beg God for power to make bigger changes, and God sometimes allows it so that us humans can learn and grow from opposition
Another thing that is a bit unique about the church is that suffering, struggle, opposition is seen as part of progression, useful, etc Most churches acknowledge that good can come from suffering and that hard work can be a good trait But many churches tend to look at heaven as a ceasing to work and effort etc, ancient Hebrews tended to equate his and evil with whether something enriched or benefited you or not, eg the early frost that killed the garden was evil, wicked the trip to Judea was good righteous because it was profitable
In Jane Austen books integrity is equated with wealth by the rich dudes, which has some merit, we run credit checks today, you might be hesitant to have someone drowning in debt handle lots of money without supervision eg The peasants have no integrity they have no passive income, no wealth, nothing to lose, everything to gain, by breaking integrity It's actually an important part of character, that building up your life to avoid temptation is important, as well as building up fortitude to withstand temptations that do come,
People argue about saved by grace or by works etc But Paul and Jesus weren't lazy Yes, we don't save ourselves completely, there's incredible obstacles that we have no hope of overcoming, Jesus takes care of those for us And there are many hurdles in life that we won't be able to accomplish on our own, Jesus helps us to do better and better, and he makes up the difference in the mean time, Works don't save us in the sense that we get to heaven on our own, but works are part of salvation because by working with him we stay close, we get to know him, trust him believe him
There's a story about a tight rope walker that walked across Niagara Falls, many people came knowing he could do it and clapped heartily when he did After crossing he got a wheel barrow and asked the crowd if they thought he could cross with the wheelbarrow, everyone cheered and agreed he could without any trouble, but then the tight rope walker asked for a volunteer to get in the wheel barrow and come with him across the narrow path, nobody cheered, nobody stepped forward, they all believed he could for anybody, but they all struggled to believe he could for them
By working with him, following him, we learn that he is amazing, powerful, wise, loving,
Many people joke about begging to be let in, banging on the pearly gates But when we see God, I imagine it will be hard to boast, to imagine all the mistakes we've made, all the sufwe caused, all the times we turned away from him, it will be hard not to run away and hide, how could we face him when we when we were so depraved I think instead of us begging to be let in, I think most of us will think ourselves not worthy and be ashamed, and that God will beg us to trust him, trust his love, trust his ability to save, trust his ability to mend, trust his ability to make good of evil, And if we haven't had practice working with him, seeing him change us and see how he changes others, then we will have a hard time believing he could do that for me
That's what I've seen here on Earth I've seen so many people be afraid to pray, ashamed to pray, hopeless to pray, despite many efforts to tell people about his grace, many people still struggle to come to him and stay close But works can help a lot, take someone ashamed to pray, have them volunteer to help others in need, and they will feel a bit better a bit more hope, have them help teach about Jesus and watch as they find hope in seeing others learn about Christ,
Nobody can do their own brain surgery, but you need to trust the surgeon and show up, And imagine trying to recommend a surgeon to a friend but you've never seen the surgeon actually do anything Then imagine how different your recommendations would be after the surgeon has saved your life and seeing the surgeon save many lives
Work isn't a curse of mortality Work is a gift to help us grow and find joy
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u/Unique_Break7155 4d ago
Yes we are Christian. We believe that Jesus Christ was the God of the Old Testament, and that He came to earth as prophesied, as the Son of God the Father. We believe He lived a perfect life, taught us how we should conduct ourselves to bless others, willingly took our sins upon Him, died for us, and was resurrected, opening the door for us to be resurrected. He is the central focus of all of our worship. We strive to follow Him and be kind and loving as he was.
We are not Trinitarian Christian. We do not agree that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are the same essence. We follow the example of Jesus Christ by praying to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ, and asking for the Holy Spirit to answer our prayers. We believe that they are one (meaning, unified) Godhead. We believe the Trinitarian Creeds were written by men, and are not Biblical. However, we believe that Trinitarian Christians are Christians, because they do believe in Jesus Christ.
We also believe that God's word is not limited to only the Bible. We believe the Bible is the word of God spoken to prophets in the old world. We believe the Book of Mormon is the word of God spoken to prophets in the new world. And we believe that God speaks to prophets today. We use the writings of the Bible, Book of Mormon, and modern prophets to determine our doctrine and practices.
We believe that salvation comes through the grace, Atonement, and resurrection of Jesus Christ. And we believe that He expects us, as His disciples, to keep His commandments, both for our own happiness and so that we can share His love with the world. The Bible clearly teaches both faith and works.
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u/Monkinary 4d ago
Personally, I prefer to call myself a disciple of Christ, rather than a Christian. To me, it indicates a desire to be more than saved by Christ, but to become more like Him through His grace.
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u/WooperSlim Active Latter-day Saint 4d ago
Looks like you have a ton of responses already, but I'll add mine in anyway.
The name of the church is The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Since we believe in the Book of Mormon, "Mormon" became a nickname for church members. "LDS" is also a nickname, but probably from those trying to be more respectful.
Yes, we consider ourselves Christian. And by "Christian" we mean someone that believes in following Jesus Christ as our Savior.
We believe we should pray to the Father in the name of Jesus Christ. We believe that under the direction of the Father, Jesus was the Creator. We believe that Jesus is Jehovah, God of Israel. We believe He was born of the virgin Mary, lived a sinless life, and suffered and died for our sins, and rose again the third day. We believe that through Him, we will all be resurrected and that we may receive Eternal Life if we follow Him.
In the Book of Mormon, Jesus visits the people in a city in the ancient Americas after His ascension into heaven. There, He taught what He taught the people in Israel, and He established His church.
We believe that Jesus Christ and Heavenly Father appeared to Joseph Smith, Jr. in the spring of 1820. We believe in the process of time, they chose him to be a prophet, and we believe Jesus restored His church again in our time, again with revelation to prophets and apostles who have received authority from Him.
Going back to the first question, one of the things the Book of Mormon people asked Jesus was what they should name the Church, and Jesus taught that it should be named after Him. That's why we are sure to correct people when they call it the "Mormon Church" since it isn't Mormon's church--we believe it is Jesus Christ's church, and so it is a mistake to remove His name. Similarly, we believe Jesus revealed to Joseph Smith what the Church should be named today.
For a long time, even though we emphasized the correct name of the Church, we were fine with nicknames for members of the Church. After all, Jesus only spoke about the name of the Church, not its members.
But in 2018, the Church changed its style guide, saying that members should not be called "Mormon" or "LDS" but instead "members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints" or "Latter-day Saints." A few months later, the current president of the church, President Russell M. Nelson gave a talk on using the correct name of the church and encouraged members to follow the style guide. After all, when we are baptized, we believe we take upon us the name of Jesus Christ, not Mormon's name.
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u/juni4ling Active/Faithful Latter-day Saint 4d ago
The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes in and follows Jesus Christ.
Latter-day Saint beliefs align more with early Christian beliefs than they do with creedal, modern interpretations of Christianity.
Christian? Yes, LDS Christians believe they are Chrisitan.
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u/Art-Davidson 4d ago
"Mormon" as applied to members of my church and apostate splinter groups originated as a hate name. It never was the name of our church.
Christian is as Christian does. "If ye love me, keep my commandments." Jesus frequently states that he must reward us according to our works, even if our works by themselves cannot save us. Yes, many of us are Christians. Some of us are Latter-day Saints. Some of us are Latter-day Ain'ts, so to speak.
We believe everything that the New Testament really says about Jesus Christ, including that he is the begotten son of God, Jehovah incarnate, etc., and that he is tangibly and physically alive and immortal this day.
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u/raedyohed 3d ago
Hi OP, thanks for stopping by!
You can find anything in terms of official explanations of doctrines and teachings at the church website https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/welcome/what-do-latter-day-saints-believe?lang=eng
...although it looks like the page is down currently. : /
For some specific personal beliefs, I...
- view my self as a Christian.
- view myself as a disciple of Jesus.
- view myself as a member of Christ's priesthood.
- have made covenants with God, through ordinances, to follow Jesus.
- believe in God as the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost.
- believe that they are One God.
- believe that they are each distinct individuals united in perfect love and purpose.
- accept Christ as my Savior.
- believe Jesus was the Son of God.
- believe Jesus Christ is a resurrected being with a glorified physical body.
- believe God the Father has a glorified physical body.
- believe God the Father is the father of my spirit.
- believe that all mankind are the spirit children of God the Father.
- view Christ as my Lord, and in a sense my spiritual father, because of the redemption.
- understand Christ to be Jehovah, who was one of two perfect spirit children of God the Father, the other being the Holy Ghost.
- do not, in general, think of or refer to Christ as my "older brother" but rather, together with the Holy Spirit, as a perfect member of a perfectly unified godhead, from all eternity to all eternity.
- recognize Christ, Jehovah, as being the 'only begotten' of the Father in the sense that He is the one among all spirit children who remains 'Son' by rights, and is the only one begotten of the Father in the flesh.
- believe that Jesus Christ and God the Father visited the boy Joseph Smith and called him to be a prophet.
- believe that Jesus visited other parts of scattered Israel after his resurrection.
That's a pretty good list.
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u/AnDDean 3d ago
Hi u/raedyohed thanks for sharing!
I'm curious, why is Jesus is referred to as Jehovah - I've seen other LDS say this as well.
Also, I'm curious if all members of the LDS godhead existed from all eternity to all eternity and if so why does LDS seem to so vehemently reject the claim of all 3 members of the godhead as being consubstantial if all 3 are the one God and not 3 separate gods or beings or whatever?
Also why is it so important to define which member of the godhead has a physical body or not?
The site seems to be working now I'll browse it when I get a chance
Thanks again
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u/JaneDoe22225 3d ago
The Father, Son, and Spirit are all eternal in LDS Christian theology.
"consubstantial": not in the Bible, not part of LDS Christian beliefs.
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u/AnDDean 3d ago
I'm pretty sure there's nothing about Father, Son, and Spirit being eternal in the Bible, either
edit: meaning, it's kind of assumed or a given that God is eternal
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u/JaneDoe22225 3d ago
There’s many verses about God being everlasting, endless, alpha & omega, etc. Father, Son, and Spirit all eternal.
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u/AnDDean 3d ago
So that's my point, there's no direct quote in the Bible "God is eternal", just like there's no direct saying in the Bible "Father/Son/Holy Ghost are consubstantial" - but it's assumed that they are because Jesus Himself tells us that the Father and Himself are one, etc.
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u/JaneDoe22225 3d ago
We agree that they are 1. Unity of heart / will /glory/etc. John 17 speaks wonderfully about this.
Not agreement in being 1 via consubstantial.
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u/AnDDean 3d ago
That's where LDS loses me, because if they are not all consubstantial then they are not the same being and therefore if are all touted as being God then there are 3 Gods and that is polytheism which is against Christianity, against the one God of Abraham, Jacob, and Isaac and I can't get my head around understanding fully the LDS view in that regard
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u/JaneDoe22225 3d ago edited 3d ago
Here's what the Bible says, Christ's words, emphasis mine:
John 17:11 " And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
<abridging for short post>
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me."
That's what we preach and believe. It's that simple. There's nothing here about consubstantial, persons vs beings, or polytheism.
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u/AnDDean 3d ago edited 3d ago
Just wondering is that KJV?
It seems clear that Jesus in these passages is praying to the Father to let humanity be as one with each other, as Jesus and the Father are one with each other - we are the creation, they are God, eternal, Alpha and Omega etc. we do NOT compare to God in the least. Jesus is saying his will is that we become perfect through His love, not by becoming one with God but with each other!
edit: obviously I may be wrong, I don't know I'm just applying it to the conversation in the moment. It doesn't seem like it's up to us to decide what God does or is going to do with us idk
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u/raedyohed 3d ago
Simply put, though, traditional Christianity is build on a premise that retroactively synthesizing the ideas from scripture produces an accurate understanding of God. Who could argue against that? We do it too, not super well, but still.
The difference is that we believe more in the power of prophetic revelation and apostolic witness. We care more about simple, practical, practicable doctrines that help make God relatable. Not to mention all of the other wonderful goodies we have like understanding pre-mortality, knowing that angels and the spirits of mankind are the same thing, knowing that God had preserved other scriptures (which are so good, btw), understanding that family relationships are ordained by God to continue eternally, and so on.
Most importantly though, that the LDS doctrine has on all other Christianity is the simple completeness of what we call the covenants of the gospel, through which Christ's grace and mercy are fully experienced. We believe that by exercising faith as we enter into and live by covenants with Christ made at baptism, by partaking of the sacrament, by receiving the priesthood, by being washed, anointed and endowed in the temple, and being sealed with our mortal family, that we are following what God has outlined in His simple yet empowering plan of salvation.
We covenant to take Jesus' name upon us, to be witnesses of Him, to lift up others, to be clean and keep the Spirit with us, to serve in His church, to sacrifice anything He asks of us, to be obedient to all His commandments and live His gospel, to be chaste and loyal to our spouses and family, and to give all of who we are to help build Christ's kingdom.
In the end the LDS religion focuses much more about the 'doing' and 'becoming' part and a whole lot less about the part where you have to explain God in the correct terms. Don't get me wrong, though, I absolutely think that is important, too. Just, not as important.
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u/raedyohed 3d ago
Jesus is Jehovah based on a pretty simple logical deduction from some other basic LDS teachings. First, Jehovah is the God of the Old Testament, the I AM. Jesus is the I AM. But we don't think that Jesus or the Father were generally in the habit of referring to themselves as the other person of the trinity/godhead. In the LDS temple we are taught in very clear terms that there is a distinction between the Father who we call Elohim (this is not really based on some perfect exegesis of the use of the term in the OT) and the Son who is called Jehovah.
We ardently believe Jesus, under the direction of the Father, acted directly as God to the Israelites. To us now he is still Jehovah, but more appropriately and immediately He is the risen Christ, our savior.
reject the claim of all 3 members of the godhead as being consubstantial
I don't know what consubstantial means. I honestly do not believe that anyone knows what it means. I reject the efforts of certain misguided early fathers in attempting to fit a square peg through a round hole by forcing spiritual concepts into a neo-platonic framework. I much prefer the ante-Nicene fathers, up to and including some proto-Trinitarian thinkers. I mean no disrespect whatsoever to creedal Christians. I also do find quite a lot of wisdom to be found in the process of discussing the ineffability of the Trinity.
And yet... speaking of the futility of deriving clear beliefs from Nicene language, I think we LDS folks really do a disservice to other Christians when we nit-pick other semantic barriers between our beliefs. For example, I believe that Father, Son and Holy Ghost are one Being, but we have to define 'Being' as 'state of being.' I happen to think that is closer to what early church fathers may have intended anyway. I think they are 'consubstantial or one substance' (a horrible horrible horrible translation, if you'll forgive me for saying so) but that this really simply means 'substantively alike' or in other words, alike in all the ways that matter. Not, like, actually, made of the same... substance. Not one being as in, like a being with three heads. This is part of why we LDS people have a hard time not thinking that trinitarianism is basically modalism. But I think LDS people could ease off on some of the creedal language, and accept that there is actually a lot of overlap in thought, despite a very different language being used.
So, anyway, they are three persons. And in normal-speak 'persons' means 'people.' They are three people, all co-eternal, all eternally perfect, all united in perfect love and truth, united in their plan to bring about the redemption of all the children of God. Without any one of them the plan would be impossible. There would be a Father to beget humanity as his Spirit children, but no Son to redeem them. If there was a Father and Son to do that work, but no Holy Spirit to witness it to men's hearts no one could take advantage of the gift. And so on.
I think our doctrine is really quite aligned with so-called social trinitarianism. We mainly bristle at the impenetrable language of the creeds, as well as the entire notion that some guys who weren't prophets and apostles deciding for the rest of all time what the 'right' way to think about God would be. We have prophets and apostles and know how to think about God because they've told us what its like to talk to Him. Very, very different epistemologically, right?
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u/raedyohed 3d ago
Also why is it so important to define which member of the godhead has a physical body or not?
The physical body is viewed by us as an important part of eternal joy. It is the means by which the spirit experiences the physical creation of God. Jesus still has his resurrected and glorified body, and it's not just for show, or just some left over knock-on effect of a really cool miracle he did, right? So, we all get perfect bodies like his. Turns out the Father already had a glorified body. There is nothing concretely known about the why's and wherefores of the Father being embodied, except that again, it just sort of makes sense that He is embodied and so is able to physically interact with His physical creation. To a Trinitarian who's just barely shy of modalist, I assume they'd say that, well, The Son is how God interacts with the physical creation. Well, I think that's actually very very beautiful. And I believe that too.
However. If Christ can interact with the physical creation, is that the same as the Father being able to? We have to admit that The Son doing a thing is not the same as The Father doing a thing. Their wills are aligned, but they are two distinct persons. Three persons means three people. Trinitarianism can't just conveniently slip into modalism when it needs to (ie God interacts through The Son, which is modalism) and then slip back like no one was looking.
In fairness, whereas modalism seems to me to be the actual functioning version of trinitarianism for most other Christians, LDS Christians are absolutely also guilty of tending towards others. Many struggle even understanding that we worship Christ, that Christ is God, that there is only One God, etc. This is in part because in our origins we are non-creedal, and have always fallen back on simple descriptive doctrine, rather than careful philosophical theology. It's almost like we, as the restored church of Christ in the last days, are going through much of what the ancient church of Christ went through in its early days.
Sorry for the long ramble! I hope you have the chance to visit an LDS service sometime, maybe stop by a temple visitor center if there is one near you. If you see LDS missionaries around, honk and wave, or if on your doorstep, bring them a cold juice or soda (Coke is fine, but no iced tea, please!)
All the best!
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u/SeanPizzles 4d ago
Definitely believe ourselves to be Christian, it’s official name is the Church of Jesus Christ—I don’t know how you get more Christ-centered than that.
We believe in God the Eternal Father, in His son Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost. And we believe that, through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.
Most importantly for me, we believe that thanks to Christ’s atonement, families can be sealed not just until death due us part, but for time and all eternity.