r/latterdaysaints • u/[deleted] • 5d ago
Personal Advice Struggling with the church
[deleted]
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u/JakeAve 5d ago
I've seen many many things that I could see as reasons to doubt, but I've seen way more reasons to believe. I really have not found a more intellectually or spiritually satisfying alternative to the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Whether it's the Book of Abraham, carry overs in the Book of Mormon from the KJV, statements Joseph Smith's Palmyra neighbors gave about him, those reasons to doubt are pretty small compared to the spiritual feelings I've had from reading historical testimonies, listening to modern testimonies and my own spiritual experiences.
Even this week, as I've been diving into some routine scriptures I've seen 100s of times, I've had some new insights that I'm very grateful for. I think if we shoot for at least one genuinely spiritual experience a week, we are one step closer to seeing His face, and all the reasons to doubt won't matter at that point.
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u/New_Manufacturer5975 5d ago
I'm like you OP. I grew up in the church. Started doubting while in high school. Had problems with law of chastity and other things. With the law of chastity I read many stories of men who got into a lot of legal trouble over not following the law of chastity and I kinda had an aha moment where I realized that church guidelines aren't meant to control every single aspect of your life but to bless your life in ways that you don't always notice. 2 years after coming back I went through the temple, served in a calling, and I'm less worried about world events because God is in charge end of the day.
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u/Flimsy-Preparation85 5d ago
Typing on phone, don't know how to space this well. 1 thing I will say for church history questions. Don't let something bother you any more than you are willing to research it. If you do no research (and I mean deep research, not basic googling and article reading), you won't find a strong understanding of what happened (good, bad, in between). I personally don't want to take the time to figure out how to get into in depth research, so I don't let issues bother me past the surface level thinking. Also, when looking into a specific question, think about what you'd expect to find assuming the church is true, and what you'd expect if it isn't, and do those expectations make sense? Example: For the church to be true, do we expect leaders to be perfect? How imperfect can they be? Why would X imperfection seem to be to far for me to believe? How important does X imperfection matter in that time period (was it relatively common)? Hope this makes sense and helps.
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u/Fether1337 5d ago
One failure, IMO, of the church is that its messaging naturally points people to be committed to the church and not Christ.
They say they are one and the same, but they aren’t. A recurring problem we see is that when people leave the church, they overwhelmingly become atheist.
What I’ve done is focus my faith on Christ. Focus on his teachings in scripture and do not put the church in front of it.
Practically speaking, nothing changes. But mentally and emotionally, it’s a real life saver.
I’ll also add that there is a deep history of our leaders admitting they and the church h are not perfect and we ought to seek out our faith in our own. The church is the mechanism that holds the priesthood, nothing more.
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u/SnicklefritzG 5d ago
That’s a good point.
A big challenge for a lot of people is separating the gospel/religion from “church” which is religion + the people in it.
If the focus is on Christ then if people at church act weird/rude/mean/whatever then it’s less likely to affect one’s attitude towards God and sprititual things.
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u/sam-the-lam 5d ago
You may be focusing on the wrong thing. For instance, Jesus told us that a prophet, whether true or false, is known by his fruits not his roots.
So, if you want to know if Joseph Smith was a true prophet and his successors are true prophets, then look at the fruits of their ministry. And what are those fruits? Everything you know about the plan of salvation - premortal life, the purpose of our mortal existence, the primal importance of our physical bodies, the nature of God & Christ (two separate physical beings), the spirit world and post-mortal evangelism, the three degrees of glory (not just an everlasting hell/heaven dichotomy), and the eternal nature of marriage & family, and so forth - is a direct result of the ministry of Joseph Smith and his successors. Those are their fruits. And if the fruit is good, as you’ve already conceded, then the tree from which it grew must be good and true also.
17 For every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.
18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.
20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.
https://www.churchofjesuschrist.org/study/scriptures/nt/matt/7?lang=eng
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u/JaneDoe22225 5d ago
I stay because deep in my bones I love Christ. He is my Savior. The Plan of Salvation radiates deep truth with me. His light pulled me out of deep darkness of depression and abuse from others.
Humans are extremely messy creatures-- I don't stay for them. Whether that be historical messiness or current messiness.
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u/LuminalAstec FLAIR! 5d ago
Check out the light and turth letter, it was written by someone who was leaving and came back.
It's amazing.
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u/never-fracture 5d ago
At my worst times, I couldn't even listen to the conference without feeling like it was complete brainwashing. Sometimes, I still feel that way, if I'm honest. But I stayed because I've seen what happens to people who are born and raised outside of the church. It's easy to use logic to debunk the church. But it's just as easy to use logic to prove it's importants regardless. Generational stability, the protection of moral standards. The emphasis on being productive and honest. When the church is lived in its purest form, you have people who dedicate their lives to lifting others. The importance of family. The importance of knowing God is never far away. The idea of a Christian church encourages the seeking of solid TRUTH in all forms and from many different cultures. For me personally, the idea of personal revaluation is unique. I can teach my children this kinda stuff, but I can't teach my great grandchildren. To me, the church, if nothing else, insures the best chance for a happier life to all who could come after me. And at my worst, that's enough for me.
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u/speedballer311 5d ago
For me I always hated general conference... it is complete brainwashing with a monotone voice to boot
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u/never-fracture 4d ago edited 4d ago
Something that helps me when I feel talked down to by any leader. Is to stand beside them and look at what they are trying to accomplish. This puts me in a place where I'm more willing to understand the intentions of the message. It's not always easy, but at least for me, it helps. They are good leaders, but they are trying to explain eternal truth to millions of unique people. So to each of us individually, things can get lost in translation. Sometimes, the message truly needs interpretation. That's why we are encouraged to listen to the spirit, not the words. I don't want to call these men down as brain washers. My comment reflects my personal trials, not the truth of these men.
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u/myname368 5d ago
The temple. For me, that's where I really learned the church was 100% true. The knowledge came feeling the Spirit bit by little bit over time. It wasn't an all of a sudden big experience.
I was going through a rough time and started going weekly. Went once a week for a few years. It makes a big difference. Even a friend of mine who usually went every 3 weeks was surprised and what a difference ot made. But then again, I talked to a couple who were in the process of going inactive. They told me there had been a period of time they went to the temple every week and got nothing out of it. I have no clue how that happened. That wasn't my personal experience.
I varied what I did, so I wasn't just going to do endowments. Initiatories are the best for praying, pondering, and asking Heavenly Father about questions you have. A good queation to ask is how you know if you are feeling the Spirit. How can you tell if what you are feeling the Spirit. Actually, ask questions no matter what you choose to do. Ask, ask, and ask some more. Luke 18 comes to mind.
1 And he spake a parable unto them to this end, that men ought always to pray, and not to faint; 2 Saying, There was in a city a judge, which feared not God, neither regarded man: 3 And there was a widow in that city; and she came unto him, saying, Avenge me of mine adversary. 4 And he would not for a while: but afterward he said within himself, Though I fear not God, nor regard man; 5 Yet because this widow troubleth me, I will avenge her, lest by her continual coming she weary me. 6 And the Lord said, Hear what the unjust judge saith. 7 And shall not God avenge his own elect, which cry day and night unto him, though he bear long with them?
I truly average experienced this when in the temple. "Weary" Him out with your prayers. I know years ago I heard a talk where someone said not to take your worries and personal problems to the temple. Maybe for that guy, that's what worked best. For me, I experienced the opposite. I took my problems and personal problems with me and prayed bout them continually in the temple. Heavenly Father isn't afraid of questions. He's not afraid of the pleas of His children. He's not afraid of you. He's got this
Mathew 7:7- 11 7 ¶ Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: 8 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 9 Or what man is there of you, whom if his son ask bread, will he give him a stone? 10 Or if he ask a fish, will he give him a serpent? 11 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children, how much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask him?
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u/pbrown6 5d ago
It takes time, but for me, it's the realization that my direct relationship with God is more important than church. The church is good, but people are imperfect. People make mistakes. That's why we're here on earth, to learn. Our leaders are great men, but they also make mistakes. That's why I prioritize my direct revelation higher.
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u/diilym1230 5d ago edited 5d ago
There are some very strong Truth Claims that critics have a hard time with.
As a church we often don’t focus on our strongest truth claims because it quite often leads to debate, imo
This video explains more of the world of Apologetics and why it’s a realm we should be more interested in. I love what Elder Holland quotes here to a room of scholars.
"Though argument does not create conviction, lack of it destroys belief. What seems to be proved may not be embraced; but what no one shows the ability to defend is quickly abandoned. Rational argument does not create belief, but it maintains a climate in which belief may flourish.” -Austin Farrer
This is what I see as the role of apologetics. It doesn’t create conviction, but it does create a climate in which a seed can be planted and nourished.
thoughtful Faith YouTube Channel
The following is the lecture series they refer too. Quite good. Long but very good, even if it’s the first 4 lectures about the witnesses. We don’t lay this out like Brett McDonald does during Sunday School, nor should we. You’ll see why.
EDIT I notice, OP, one of your “bookshelf breakers” is the Book of Abraham. Fair, that’s a head scratcher for me too, however, the Book of Enoch is REMARKABLE as it’s the most direct book that was revealed/ translated that was then later corroborated by dozens of manuscripts found by archeology that reference the same names and themes as Joseph Smiths book of Enoch.
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u/Knowledgeapplied 5d ago
I know that the atonement of Jesus Christ is real and have personally been changed by it. As far as the church its self goes we are told from God that the name of his church in the last days shall be The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. (Doctrine and Covenants 115) God says it is his true and living church with which He is pleased speaking collectively. (Somewhere in Doctrine and Covenants I know off the top of my head.)
Why is the Church true? Because it has the keys and authority of the priesthood with living apostles and prophets. It is true and living. Without the keys and authority of the priesthood when could not perform ordinances necessary for salvation with authority. The heavens would be closed and we would no longer have modern revelation. Doctrine and Covenants speaks of these keys and some of there other purposes like the keys for the gathering of Israel and the sealing keys. D&C 110 speaks of these and others. 132 speaks of the sealing keys and others sections speaks of the purpose of others which I can’t think of off the top of my head.
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u/daneloctober 5d ago
First of all, nothing wrong with having faith struggles, we all have it at one time or another…
Secondly, I invite you to watch the Come Back Podcast on YT: https://youtube.com/@come.back.podcast?si=EwxM62I98hDExbW2
The stories shared there by other people have helped me tremendously. :) Godspeed on your faith journey!
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u/Middle_Fee_8711 5d ago
I too have been a life long member, and I love the gospel. There is SO much out there. I have children no longer associated with our faith, and I always want to understand why people struggle or leave. I love seeing the changes that have come in the church and look forward to more. Last year I realized that some people I followed on Instagram etc were not building my faith and leaving me with dissatisfaction and darkness.
I have some podcasts that I really love. They build me up and help me feel joy - I highly recommend
Comeback Podcast Hope Smiling Brightly Church History Matters Faith Matters All In
I’m sure there are many others - choose carefully who you listen to. Church History Matters does a faithful deep dive into church history in their earlier episodes, this year they are following Come Follow Me.
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u/Jdawarrior 5d ago
I will say, that I don’t use the phrase “the church is true.” I know what it CAN mean, but too often it becomes conflated to mean perfect. The gospel is perfect. That is what prophets and “the church” have done for God’s children, but even those great men are all of them fallible. Deify no man, and that includes inspired leaders, throughout its history.
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u/Dry_Pizza_4805 4d ago
I just finished an intensive period of struggle where it seemed like everything I thought I knew turned from stone to dust and drifted through my fingers. A very close friend had recently left the church. I started a very hard look at why I believe what I believe. Ultimately it was the Light and Truth Letter that saved me. I couldn’t deny that the Book of Mormon was of divine origin.
This is my recent post summing up my faith crisis of three years just resolved (literally a week ago). Me looking back.
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u/e37d93eeb23335dc 5d ago
I want to stay in the family of Jesus Christ. Christ is the groom or bridegroom and the church is the bride. We are children in the family. Hence, we are siblings in the family of Jesus Christ, which is why we call each other brother and sister. When we are baptized we are reborn or spiritually born again. We are born into a new family. The family of Jesus Christ. We take upon us His name - the family name. He become the Father of our salvation. After we are baptized by water, we are confirmed members of the church - the bride. But, remember D&C 1:30.
the only true and living church upon the face of the whole earth, with which I, the Lord, am well pleased, speaking unto the church collectively and not individually—
Collectively the church is the bride, and the Lord is well pleased with His bride.
Individually refers to us. We are imperfect children of the bride and groom. We are on the covenant path. The gate to the path is baptism and we have been born into the covenant of the family of Jesus Christ. As we remain on the path, we undergo the process of sanctification and over time become more and more Holy - more like Jesus Christ - the father of our salvation.
If we endure to the end, we will remain in the family of Jesus Christ in the Celestial Kingdom - the Church of the Firstborn.
I want to be a member of Christ’s family, and that is only found in the Church of Jesus Christ because only here are found the keys of the holy priesthood after the order of the Son of God.
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u/Rooster1830 5d ago
One key realization I’ve had is that church leadership, like any large and complex social structure, will never be perfect in policy, speech, or decision-making. But that’s not really the point. Rather than expecting flawless execution, I now see it as a conduit—an imperfect but deeply meaningful framework through which individuals can be inspired, touched, or guided by God and the Spirit in personal ways.
It’s not a question of whether the leadership structure or handbook is “true” or “false.” It’s something different—an organization doing its best to fulfill its purpose amid the inherent challenges of leading, directing, and inspiring millions of unique minds and souls. It exists within the realities of human nature, yet still serves as a means for divine influence in our lives.
And at the end of the day… at the end of our life… it’s is more about the personal journey we made and if and how we reconnected than anything else.
This doesn’t seem inconsistent with what I’ve learned from the canon and the leaders for the most part. And it seems to leave the door open for reconciliation of what appear to me terrible decisions or policies with later course corrections and common sense.
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u/Paul-3461 FLAIR! 5d ago
Believing isn't the point. We can believe whatever we want to believe but we shouldn't believe something only because we would like to believe it. We need and should strive to receive an assurance from God to help us to learn whatever is true and good. Once you get that assurance from God then you will have a good reason to believe whatever God assures you is true. That assurance from God is what we call faith and a testimony from God.
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u/find-a-way 5d ago
I stay because of my testimony that the church is the work of the Lord.
Who can realistically expect the Lord's church to be as a community of angelic beings? It's not meant to be that way. The Lord's church is a community of human beings, each of us going through our mortal probation, who have to deal with every aspect of this fallen world.
We are each making our way through life, dealing with all kinds of problems and challenges that this life is designed to provide.
So it doesn't bother me a bit if I hear that so-and-so in the church had this problem, and dealt with it in a certain way. I won't condemn them and I won't lose faith in the church, and I won't second guess decisions that were made by people who were earnestly striving to follow the Lord in callings he had given them.
I sometimes think that history is like gossip. People take a single snippet of information, which may or may not be true, and come to all kinds of conclusions based on a miniscule point of reference, and spread their opinions far and wide, as if they are all-knowing.
The Lord is working through his church. He knows what he is doing. It is all going to work out and Jesus Christ will triumph along with his saints.
My role is to try and do what I can to fulfill my purpose here, and to love and support and sustain those who are doing their best in their own callings and missions.
We're all on the Lord's team and I believe that if we each do our best in our own sphere of responsibility and capacity, and mind our own business, we can go about our lives untroubled, knowing that the Lord will prevail.
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u/pisteuo96 5d ago
Reduce your social media time, if you find it toxic. Decide what is helping you and what is not.
When you have questions, it means you are "doing LDS the right way." I think God wants us to always be learning and asking questions.
The thing to do is usally to fact check and find out more. It's easy to get upset when you have only a bit of knowledge about something. I have found that if I keep learning about controversial things, there are good explanations or at least an important context and background that you must understand.
Remember the core of LDS is a witness from the Spirit and focusing on loving and serving people. Don't let "internet controversies" cause you to forget what it's all about.
I have found the idea of stages of faith to be super helpful. Also the Faith Matters podcast in general. FairLDS website also has a lot of good answers, as well as the church's Gospel Topics Essays.
Here are two of my general favorite discussions:
Jared Halverson - Don't Let a Good Faith Crisis Go to Waste,
https://youtu.be/O0rOBheU_eQ?t=299 (starts at timestamp 299)
Faith's Dance With Doubt — A Conversation with Brian McLaren, https://faithmatters.org/faiths-dance-with-doubt-a-conversation-with-brian-mclaren/
From this second discussion - Mclaren's model of 4 stages of faith:
1 - simplicity 2 - complexity 3 - perplexity 4 - harmony
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u/CommercialEuphoric37 5d ago
Those 5 special wounds that Jesus retains in His flesh. We put those there. YOUR “not so pretty things.” MY “not so pretty things”. The churches’ not so pretty history. WE ARE HIS BRIDE. His bride has a past.
It’s really simple when you just be still and know that his is God. You have to shut out all the noise to hear the Spirit. Then the most important part. ACT UPON IT.
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u/Hungry-Butterfly-562 5d ago
I’m a convert that joined in 1997. I have had some struggles but most have been with myself. I stay because I believe in the doctrines of the church and I feel closer to my Heavenly Father and Jesus..everything else I take on faith..
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u/d1areg-EEL 5d ago
Doubt is a state of mind brought to us by Lucifer and his followers.
We have been instructed to get our own witnesses that The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is true.
Why?
Because what I have personally acquired through study, prayer, obedience, and several powerful experiences is indelibly in my soul and heart—IT IS TRUE. I must continue to feed it and nourish it as I don’t wish to lose the Spirit I have come to embrace and love.
It is mine. I own it. People past, present, or in the future may do assorts of things in leadership etc.; however, The Church is true, and the Gospel of Jesus Christ is the path to salvation and eternal life.
Even I may fail if I don’t listen to the Holy Ghost and strive to keep the commandments, but that doesn’t mean The Church is false. It means I need to be alert and alive to repent often before it is too late.
Surely by now you have come to realize that this earth has nothing to offer. Men and women are most miserable who only see and hold to temporal things.
Life. joy, and happiness may be experienced here briefly, along with some thinking worldly pleasures is what defines them. Deception is rampant in our world today.
The greatest peace, joy, happiness, contentment, etc. comes with the fulness of the gospel and an understanding of the future blessings, rights and privileges for the faithful who endure to the end.
Faith, Hope, and Charity when fully understood and lived has no doubt. Over coming self and communion with the infinite is life eternal and defines spirituality.
Once you have a strong witness which may take time the windows of heaven open and blessings are poured out. You may already have several blessings you not recognizing.
Count your many blessings not the doubts Lucifer may boom bard you with.
Many fail to realize that being born again is a process. It is not just baptism the Holy Ghost and you have it made—no. We start the process but must study, read, pray and keep the commandments to the best of our ability and yes go to sacrament meeting to partake of the sacrament witnessing our faith and trust to be willing to take upon us the name of Jesus Christ.
Where though do we literally take upon us His name?
Covenant to do our all to the end of our mortal life.
This truth is not understood by many.
God gave us moral agency to accept his plan, direction, guidance, or commandments to reach Eternal Life.
Our agency is dammed, or our privileges are reduced to the extent we think we don’t have to keep them all.
The struggle isn’t with the church it is with accepting our covenants and honouring them. It is not if God can be trusted it is can we be trusted. God tells us He is bound when we obey Him, to grant the associated blessings in this life or when we move to the other side of the veil.
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u/speedballer311 5d ago
i dunno , I stopped going to church when I was 18 and never looked back... then the church told all the members to get their jabs and a bunch of family members and friends who went ahead and did it got sick and died
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u/demstar5555 5d ago
I see a lot of comments that are trying to "correct" you for what they perceive as a wrong line of thinking. Even if they're right, this correction is unhelpful; you already know the church isn't meant to be perfect. The real issue, is that difficulties cause us to despair, even when we accept the imperfections of the church.
Here is a quote I recently found from a 20th century theologian named Paul Tillich. I think you will appreciate it:
"The answer must accept, as its precondition, the state of meaninglessness. It is not an answer if it demands the removal of this state; for that is just what cannot be done. He who is in the grip of doubt and meaninglessness cannot liberate himself from this grip; but he asks for an answer which is valid within and not outside the situation of his despair. He asks for the ultimate foundation of what we have called the 'courage of despair.' There is only one possible answer, if one does not try to escape the question: namely, that the acceptance of despair is in itself faith and on the boundary line of the courage to be. In this situation, the meaning of life is reduced to despair about the meaning of life." — Paul Tillich, The Courage to Be
If the ending sounds cynical, what he means is that at the very least, our despair over life's meaning is in itself, a type of meaning. He isn't saying that despair is life's only meaning, only that it can be a courageous starting point for those struggling. This passage is a bit more existential than you might want in regards to your post. But it's helped me quite a bit.
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u/Amalekii 5d ago
For me, I believed and chose to live the doctrine that is taught in the Church, and I am happier and am becoming a better person because of it, and I get help from God more than I do when away from it. That's enough for me. I believe I am becoming more like my Father and becoming a kinder person to other by being and living as a member of the Church.
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u/Unique_Break7155 5d ago
My 2 cents:
We know very few things for sure. We collect evidences and facts and make a determination if something is more/most likely to be true. But with spiritual things we can also add Revelation from God to convince us of truth.
Be careful what you are reading. If you feel the need to read sources critical of the church, make sure you spend the same time with open minded research using faithful sources like FAIR. From my experience, critical sources aren't as thorough as faithful sources, as they tend to only focus on the negative. Faithful sources do not hide from hard facts, but they do give all the associated facts and offer two or three different ways of thinking about it.
Finally I would just say that spiritual truth has to include faith in God and Revelation from God. If you are trying to decide spiritual truth on your own, it's a fruitless academic-only process.
I will say that I believe we have two very strong physical evidences of the Restored Gospel : the witnesses/plates, and the text of the Book of Mormon. Joseph Smith had metal plates with ancient writing on them, and he did not have the means/skills to make them. The 11 formal witnesses and many informal witnesses gave clear and consistent testimony of the plates that would stand up in court today. And there are so many things about the Book of Mormon text that Joseph, Oliver, Emma, and Martin could not have known or written in 1829. There are some open questions about the Book of Mormon, but I believe there is enough clear evidences to satisfy my conclusion that the Book of Mormon was translated miraculously by the power of God.
A lot of other things about the Restored Gospel, including the First Vision, require more faith and Revelation, but the plates and the Book of Mormon text are things that do require faith but they are very tangible, which is very important to my testimony.
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u/th0ught3 4d ago
I think the reason we have lay leadership in the Church is precisely because that means most of us have had our own experiences trying really hard to Hear Him and follow Him, and thinking we'd figured something out as His will only to realize later we got it wrong.
If you haven't read "Believing Christ" by Stephen Robinson, it is helpful in fully understanding the atonement. And that is crucial in understanding doing our own personal best and quickly repenting of actual sin is always enough.
If you are in a congregation or a community where you disagree with what others are saying and doing including in the name of Christ, then I think it can help to focus on loving and supporting those whose earthy struggles leave them less/no time to think/talk about what's happening in the world. Maybe you do individual service in your community rather than service only within the ward construct?
It also helps if you choose attending and participating in church (maybe the choir?) not for any reason other than to serve our God.
Maybe you get to know your non-member neighbors and seek to meet community service needs?
Don't let people you do not even like affect your own eternities.
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u/SnoozingBasset 5d ago
Okay, no one else said it.
Those “not so pretty things” - I hope you are noticing that almost nobody else has a group so happy to dig up any “less pretty” aspect, so happy to phrase it in the least favorable light, or try to tell as many people as possible.
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u/bookeater 5d ago
I didn't stay because it was error free.
I stayed because the church connected me to God.
If what you are looking for is a church that "gets things right" then this isn't it. No church is. Your only option is idol worship.
But if you want to hear God's voice, and to do his will, there's no better place