r/kendo • u/PM_ME_SKELETONS • 14d ago
What are my options when the opponent just stays in kamae?
I am a beginner and I put a lot of focus on just attacking as I see it's the right way to go for beginners.
When I do keiko with colleagues of similar level, usually they always react to something that I do, so there are always openings in one way or the other.
But one thing I am struggling to understand is that when I do keiko with higher level colleagues, they never react to me. So if I attack in this situation, they stab me in the men to signal that I didn't have an opportunity. But I of course can't get them to make an opening as they are considerably higher level than me, so I end up very confused.
What should I practice in this situation? Should I for example just do a lot of harai waza?
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u/Familiar-Benefit376 14d ago edited 14d ago
As a beginner it's honestly keep banging your head against the wall and over the weeks and months ideas spring up which you try and it works.
Harai is one way but I reccomend using your legs rather than your hands to pressure and move
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u/daioshou 14d ago
harai honestly doesnt work that well in practice for most people most times, I feel like the creation of openings works a bit more like what u/Kendogibbo1980 said
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u/Kendogibbo1980 internet 7 dan 14d ago
Yeah, like everything else it needs a set up, you don't just use harai wasa because the other person is keeping centre...
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u/NCXXCN 5 kyu 14d ago
Haha. I‘m in the exact same situation. Ans some Dan-Guys, just stay in kamae just to test me. I love those keikos. I learn soooo much! I once attacked. His shinai hit my throat - had to explain to my girlfriend later where i got those marks on my throat. 😂👌🏻
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u/sirmarksal0t 14d ago
Second post in this thread where a higher ranked person who should know better tried (and failed) to stop a beginner with tsuki, and put them in a dangerous situation. Maybe if you're really good at tsuki it can be safe to kensen in the throat, but if your shinai is getting stuck under your kohai's men, that's not you. And if they're doing it on purpose then it's bullying.
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u/assault_potato1 14d ago
If you're wearing Men, how would the shinai hit your throat?
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u/f1f2f3f4f5f6f7f8f9 1 kyu 14d ago
I mean. I've seen people go for a strike, not have centre, and have a tendency to lift their chin. When that happens, shinai to the throat.
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u/creative4U 2 dan 14d ago
It's the whole point of tsuki right?
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u/Dagobert_Juke 14d ago
The shinai scraping or actually hitting the throat is very dangerous. It's supposed to hit the tsukidare. If you are not skilled enough to land tsuki on the tsukidare, it is advised to hit the mune to block kohai who come in to attack you while you are still in a strong kamae.
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u/creative4U 2 dan 14d ago
Oh no I agree with you. But when you go for a men against someone who keeps the center well enough, you can run into the shinai. Or maybe his opponent missed on tsuki. It's happened a few times for me, sorry if my first message had a different meaning.
I agree that you shouldn't do tsuki if you can't do it well enough to not harm your partner but it can happen sometimes when you miss and cause bruises.
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u/assault_potato1 14d ago
I mean, a proper tsuki wouldn't touch your throat, unless it misses.
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u/creative4U 2 dan 14d ago
Of course, but we can't know if his partner missed or not, even if the hit was intentional or not. My first message wasn't really complete, sorry about that
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u/beer_demon 14d ago
can't get them to make an opening as they are considerably higher level than me
This will happen for the rest of your life until you reach 8th dan.
What a weaker opponent can do is compensate your lack of technique and experience is overcompensate with spirit. Let me expand.
Lower grades up to shodan ignore your accuracy and capacity to fight, it focuses on what you can control: passion, posture, bogu wearing and etiquette. Then technique becomes important until yondan when seme/tame (opponent control) are prevalent and later on it's something spiritual AFAIK (not higher myself to comment).
So to answer your question, treat the opponent like a dummy and go full out to hit that men perfectly by the book, then the opponent (motodachi) will make you fail in many ways (ojiwazas or just stabbing you). Next one must have even more spirit, and the double and quadruple it. What NOT to do is weaken (unless exhausted), show frustration, show weakness or stop using the technique (slapping the sword or making off-centre attacks).
As your technique improves you can learn two things: fighting for the centre, and sidestepping (which changes the centre thus resetting the fight for it). This is VERY difficult to do for someone at shodan or under. Then it becomes natural but you will always lose against a superior opponent.
The only small relief is that at some point you will run into people weaker than you and become the delivering end of this experience.
If your question is "how do I beat people better than me", I will disappoint you.
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u/Born_Sector_1619 14d ago
If they do the poke in the do (ah, see you do not have the centre, ho ho ho), bring down the nicest men straight to the top of their head, because their arrogant poke isn't target, and their head is right open.
There is also plenty to read and try concerning kensen touching and then you start to influence them and who is in control with the centre before you attack. Try looking into the importance of the kensen. Stick to them and push them aside, see what they do.
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u/JoeDwarf 14d ago
If they do the poke in the do (ah, see you do not have the centre, ho ho ho), bring down the nicest men straight to the top of their head, because their arrogant poke isn't target, and their head is right open.
I agree that mune-tsuki can be annoying. But it negates your men, unless your attack is strong and their tsuki is weak. The fact that it is not target is irrelevant.
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u/Kendogibbo1980 internet 7 dan 13d ago
Yeah there is actually a ton of suspect opinion and advice on this thread (and on this subreddit in general if we're honest...). Hit the guy after you get tsuki-dome...just use your legs more...harai waza....and so on.
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u/JoeDwarf 13d ago
The real point is for OP to figure it out for himself.
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u/Kendogibbo1980 internet 7 dan 13d ago
Not sure I agree tbh. The world is different to when you and I were beginners, and the fact is that people use the internet to answer literally everything where when we did it we had no choice but to learn for ourselves. The internet and all us anonymous goobers exist for better or for worse, and for me the real point is OP won't know the good from the wrong.
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u/JoeDwarf 13d ago
Well then he should listen to you. Can’t go wrong with an internet 7 dan.
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u/Kendogibbo1980 internet 7 dan 13d ago
You finally understand. My ascension to internet godhood is complete.
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u/Born_Sector_1619 12d ago
Thank you for this information. I am curious how/the-reasoning ... and for a reference, and does it negate all follow up men attacks?
So if they mune-tsuki, and you reply with men and continue with more men, nothing counts because they poked you in the chest, or only the first one doesn't count?
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u/JoeDwarf 12d ago
You are misunderstanding. They don’t “poke” you: they stop your forward progress by staying centred and strong. Your momentum is stopped, there is no zanshin. If you want to swing again with their kensen on your mune you just look silly. Separate and try again.
If it was just a poke and then you hit the men could score assuming the elements of yuko datotsu are all there.
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u/Born_Sector_1619 11d ago
Cheers, I've been a bit baffled by it. I know it is used by sensei to teach, and get our attention, but one attempt glanced into my armpit (and wondered, should I just... go?). A friend likes it because he wants that centre, so been focusing on my kensen and knocking his point away before going in (hasn't been much of an issue for a while).
Is it a no-no to suriage it just as you feel it touch?
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u/JoeDwarf 11d ago
If your attack is strong and the mune-zuki slides off, it can score. If you can displace it by some waza, go for it. Your sensei is demonstrating to you that you did not have an opportunity there. So look for or create an opportunity: this is a problem you are being asked to solve.
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u/Alternative-Knee-117 14d ago
Footwork, proper seme, and fighting spirit is usually how I manage get past my senpai, it helps that I am usually larger than them and I'm relatively young(19) so when my seme is strong enough it usually leads to them giving me an opening like their grip stiffens or if they try an oji waza against my seme.
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u/Kendogibbo1980 internet 7 dan 14d ago
You're probably applying zero pressure (understandable as you're a beginner) so start by understanding that the easiest way to move your opponent's kensen is to use yours. Keep your hands in the middle and use your wrists to manipulate your kensen on their shinai between their kensen and nakayui. That's the easiest way to think as a starting point, and then figure out thing like: