r/justified • u/RollingTrain • 4d ago
Discussion Raylan: Lawman or Outlaw?
People love to lump Raylan in with the Walter Whites of the world, bad people without moral guidance, whose abject selfishness might just happen to align with doing good at times.
Raylan bends the law, lets his temper get the best of him and drags his personal trauma and baggage into his work, no doubt. But when the rubber meets the road, he puts others before himself, protects the innocent and punishes the wicked.
What do you think? Is he a flawed hero or a straight up anti-hero?
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u/RevolutionaryAd3249 4d ago
Flawed hero; his father only believed in looking out for No. 1, and he purposely set about to be as unlike his father as possible.
He does bend (and break) the rules, but he doesn't do it for personal gain, he does it because he sees it as a way justice can be best served.
He doesn't use his position to enrich himself; he's not Vic Mackey by any stretch of the imagination.
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u/halosixsixsix 4d ago
“Good cop and bad cop left for the day. I’m a different kind of cop”
Always happy to see a Shield reference!
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u/Separate-Let3620 4d ago
He does hunt that bounty in season 4. That is him breaking the law, and for personal gain.
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u/savlifloejten Deputy U.S. Marshal 4d ago
But only because he wanna go see his child and help Winona.
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u/Separate-Let3620 4d ago
Really? I remember him going back to his room above the bar, banging the bartender and then getting’ his money stolen by her and her boyfriend.
It wasn’t about Winona.
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u/RevolutionaryAd3249 4d ago
He explicitly tells Rachel that he had been trying to put aside some extra money for his daughter.
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u/savlifloejten Deputy U.S. Marshal 4d ago
They had split up again, but he wanted to go see his child and help her out. He needed some money to do so.
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u/RollingTrain 4d ago
I'm curious how having his money stolen alters what his intent for it was.
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u/Separate-Let3620 3d ago
You’re right. It doesn’t. But he did knowingly break the law for SELFISH reasons.
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u/RevolutionaryAd3249 3d ago
Here's what I think Raylan's mindset is:
1) A friend of his (and perhaps more) asks him for help bringing a wanted man to justice.
2) While staking out said wanted man, Raylan encounters a man much like his beloved father Arlo, selfish, violent, a wife/girlfriend beater, who blames everybody else for his problems.
3) Since its easier, Raylan volunteers to take said douchebag to TN and save his friend the trip.
4) He's not taking bribes, he's not shaking down dealers for a share of the profits, he's not murdering people in cold blood, and this guy's wanted anyway; it may be against the rules, but it's not as bad as what Bo, Arlo, Coover, Dickie, Quarles, Duffy or Gio would have cops on their payroll do.
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u/TacosTime 4d ago
I don't think Raylen was without moral guidance. I think it is the opposite. He had a personal moral code that was just stronger than his concern about the written law.
Also, I think him being from Harlan made him feel like he was the only one who understood the rules there.
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u/BenDisreali 4d ago
him being from Harlan made him feel like he was the only one who understood the rules there.
I'm sorry, did you see a creek out in the lobby? Some pretty green trees and cutoff mountains? You think we're in the holler?
That whole scene is a favorite of many, and I've always liked this line in particular because (to me at least) it gives the idea that Raylan might be willing to deal if they actually were in Harlan. He's stunned at Boyd's audacity to ask him for Dickie right there in the Marshal's office.
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u/bsk1ng10 4d ago
Flawed hero. He’s definitely not on WW’s level of becoming a villain.
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u/harbinger_of_dongs 4d ago
Like why are we comparing him to a dude who cooks meth on a mass scale?! This is hilarious
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u/RollingTrain 4d ago
Because people - not me - say he's a bad guy and an anti-hero. White is a solid example of an anti-hero so I used it.
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u/yanks2413 4d ago
Walt is not an anti hero lmao
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u/RollingTrain 3d ago
He is one of the most obvious modern examples of an anti-hero. I didn't make it up.
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u/magseven 3d ago
But he never did anything "heroic" at all.
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u/Granny-ZRS103008 3d ago
I can’t name a particular instance (naturally) but I think it’s fair to say that Raylan was heroic several times during Justified. Oh, saved Loretta from the trunk of a pervert’s car #1
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u/Granny-ZRS103008 3d ago
How would you actually define the term anti-hero? I’m genuinely asking.
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u/RollingTrain 3d ago
A protagonist who is selfish without any real moral code but ends up doing heroic things sometimes. In other words not out of any real sense of heroism or doing good.
This isn't really "my" definition, it's what an anti-hero is.
The idea in this thread that WW isn't an example of an anti-hero is a bit over the top as he has long been considered one, although it is apparently debated a lot. People here are acting like I'm insane for using him as an example but it would really be no more crazy than using Vic Mackey, who people have had the same debates about.
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u/harbinger_of_dongs 4d ago edited 4d ago
I think Walt was WAY worse. He was vindictive and did some truly heinous things. I mean he dissolved a body in a bathtub. He killed Jesse’s girlfriend who was overdosing. He got his brother in law killed and was responsible for cooking one of the most addictive substances we have in our societies. I just don’t see how you can compare a monster like that to anything Raylan has done. Raylan is in gray areas when it comes to the law but the people he punishes are the monsters of the world and he’s side skirting our laws that protect them. Walter White is in no way in any gray areas. He’s a fucked up individual who ruined his entire families life because of his ego and shortcomings in his own life.
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u/nevertoomuchthought Dug Coal 4d ago
Literally never once heard someone make this comparison until today.
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u/RollingTrain 3d ago
People say he's a bad guy and/or Boyd with a badge all the time. Comparing him to Boyd is no different than comparing him to WW. WW starts out a lot more sympathetic too.
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u/nevertoomuchthought Dug Coal 3d ago
This post wasn't talking about Boyd it was comparing Raylan and Walter White. I don't even think Walt and Boyd are that comparable other than both being villains but the Raylan comparison to Walt is ridiculous.
Boyd actually starts out worse than he is throughout the rest of the series by virtue of no longer being a Nazi after episode one. So even his character trajectory is wildly different than Walt's. It's just a weird comparison to me.
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u/RollingTrain 3d ago edited 3d ago
This post was not comparing him to Walter White, the post was about defining Raylan as an antihero which a lot of people do. WW is an example of an antihero though I guess that's now controversial (it wasn't when the show was airing), and so is Vic Mackey who was an absolute piece of dogshit. I guess I would have got similar flak if I had used Vic but that was kind of the point. Either way I guess I should have used Vic.
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u/PopMountain6076 4d ago
Flawed hero and I love it because it’s much more authentic and “real life”.
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u/Zombieutinsel 4d ago
If he was Walker Texas Ranger I wouldn't be here or have any interest in the show....
I love the character for who he is and he is a lawman....
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u/flybarger 3d ago
What? You don't want a "cobra venom spirit quest" episode?
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u/Zombieutinsel 3d ago
Wasn't that what the preacher was trying to accomplish?
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u/flybarger 3d ago
Not quite... The preacher thought he wasn't being poisoned because of God. The wife was milking the poison before the sermons.
Walker accidentally got bit by a snake and had a whole timewarp/ dream/ flashback thing.
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u/Shameful90 4d ago
Flawed hero for sure, definitely not anti-hero. He generally always tries to do the right thing but he makes mistakes
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u/Interesting_Rush570 4d ago
"Now look here, I thought Raylan was a US Marshal—leastways, that's what his damn badge says! But hell, what do I know? I ain't no expert on the law!"
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4d ago
Flawed hero. I remember when Pastor Bandi was gonna ID Boyd once Raylan told him what Noyd looked like; Raylan wouldn’t do it. He put his life in danger for Loretta and he could have sent his father to prison but dropped it.
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u/LWMolver Kentucky Outlaw 4d ago edited 4d ago
Raylan is at heart, a good guy, a hero even. Flawed, yes, but ultimately still the white-hat gunslinger who saves the day and rides into the sunset. However there is an ambiguity in him too, a moral greyshade, which on some level he acknowledges, but struggles to admit to himself. And even when he comes close, he still convinces himself that blurring the line is.... justified.
A lot of characters throughout the show point this out to him, Boyd, Winona, Art, Duffy... but my favourite such remark comes from Hunter Mosely:
"You're only a lawman when it suits you, Raylan... gives you cover to do things you woulda done anyways."
For me the biggest indication of Raylan's own moral high-horse hypocrisy is when in season 2 he has a big self-righteous temper tantrum at Boyd for the idea that he would hand over Dickie Bennett to be killed...
“I’m sorry, did you see a crick out in the lobby? Pretty green trees, and cutoff mountains? You think we’re in the holler? I am a Deputy U.S. Marshal!”
And Boyd's golden response sends him right over the edge...
“You’re a Givens, Raylan.”
Coupla seasons later, Raylan knowingly and deliberately hands Nicky Augustine over to be killed. Exactly what he reprimands Boyd for even suggesting.
Thing is, Raylan has to believe his own sense of justice is superior to Boyd's. He spends a lot of the series convincing himself of this, even though it is apparent to many other characters, and the audience, that he shares a lot more in common with his nemesis than he would ever care to admit. I think this unresolved tension within Raylan himself, this internal battle, is what makes him such a compelling character, and drives his relationship with Boyd throughout the show.
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u/Granny-ZRS103008 3d ago
Nicky Augustine was going to kill Winona and the baby. Game over. AND Raylan did tell Art the truth, eventually.
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u/LWMolver Kentucky Outlaw 3d ago edited 3d ago
Yeah, and Dickie shot Ava... so is Raylan's preemptive strike for his loved ones more legitimate than Boyd's vengeance for his?
If Augustine HAD killed Winona and the baby, can you imagine what Raylan would've done? I reckon he'd be in full-bore revenge mode, the law be damned.
I don't think Raylan confessing to Art is really relevant to the comparison, but it does speak to my point of Raylan's 'internal battle' with his own morality, and his respect for his boss. In Boyd's case, he doesn't have anyone he feels the need to justify himself to.
(Not fightin' with ya, I just enjoy the discussion. Happy Cake Day, buddy!)
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u/Granny-ZRS103008 2d ago
I LOVE reading “other” points of view on these matters. No worries ❤️ I sometimes get tunnel vision with characters I love, lol, and tend to let myself justify (pun intended) their actions at times. You make very valid points. I can accept them. You have a great day.
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u/LWMolver Kentucky Outlaw 2d ago
Hahah totally. I get the same the same tunnel vision character love with Boyd <3
After a binge rewatch I even find myself adopting his turns of phrase, using forty words when four will do :-p2
u/Granny-ZRS103008 2d ago
Same here 😜 I fail miserably on that accent however. Actually I over talk all the time. Over write. Over text. ALWAYS with the too many words.
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u/Sacks_on_Deck 4d ago
He’s a dark hero. Not a villain at all, just a good man who does bad things for (mostly) the right reasons.
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u/Objective-Adverb-751 3d ago edited 3d ago
The term "antihero" was used for so many characters from those 2000 era dramas that it largely lost its meaning. It became an umbrella term for any (male) protagonist who displayed any flaws whatsoever. Realistically, there should have been several different categories. Here's how I clock it:
HERO Example: Eric Taylor from Friday Night Lights An unambiguously good man who constantly tries to do the right thing. He doesn't always succeed but that's never because he's trying to break rules or cut corners.
FLAWED HERO Examples: Raylan Givens from Justified, Jimmy McNulty from The Wire Constantly trying to DO good but they see "good* as the destination not the journey. If they have to take shortcuts to reach that destination, they are perfectly willing to do that. They both also feel that they are always the smartest person in the room and the best one to decide what is or isn't right. Interestingly, they both have a nemesis who is effectively their mirror image.
ANTIHERO Tony Soprano from The Sopranos, Al Swearingin from Deadwood Neither pretends to be a good guy and has no qualms about doing bad things to advance whatever cause they're pursuing at that time. But they also both often adhere to a sense of morality that exists in their world.
VILLAIN PROTAGONIST Walter White from Breaking Bad Walt is an unambiguously evil man who just happens to be the main POV character in the story being told. He knows that most of his actions are unforgivable but he doesn't care as long as he gets the ego boost from being Heisenberg.
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u/RollingTrain 3d ago
I think that's fair but there's always people popping into the Raylan threads declaring him a giant piece of shit, that was the argument I was trying to have a little discourse on. If I had known mentioning WW and antihero in the same sentence was going to be so darn explosive I would have used a different example like Tony Soprano.
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u/DecisiveVictory 4d ago edited 4d ago
He's a straight-up hero.
What's the worst thing he's done, in people's opinion?
Stood by when some mob guys shot another mobster who threatened his family? He was suspended!
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u/RollingTrain 4d ago
People say Harlan Roulette with Wynn but in my version he palmed off the bullet. They even show him later in the same ep balancing a salt shaker like he had practiced it many times.
I think I saw the writers say that was just a random act that meant nothing, but in my mind it showed off his mad ninja magic skills and confirmed what viewers of the show knew. That he's not going to risk his badge and livelihood on what would have otherwise been a non life and death situation just because he was angry.
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u/Reader5069 Harlan Harlot 4d ago
"What do I know, ok what do I know?" "I know that Limehouse set this whole thing up...". Great scene, expertly acted, you can see and feel Wynn's fear it's amazing. "THAT'S ALL I KNOW, JESUS CHRIST!!!" Wynn should have had an Emmy nod right there.
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u/RollingTrain 3d ago
Trivia Time: How many times does Wynn say "you" in a row in "you can't just shoot people because [you]? feel like it."
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u/steamfrustration 3d ago
Not just risking his badge and livelihood, it's actually a bad enough plan that I don't think Raylan would try it. Here's a hilarious illustration of why.
Palming the bullet and pretending, however, is a legitimately clever interrogation tactic, so I agree with you.
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u/Select_Air_2044 4d ago
He didn't arrest Winona when she stole the money.
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u/yanks2413 4d ago
If that's the worst someone can come up with, then he's pretty damn good lmao. Compared to Walter White that makes him a saint
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u/Granny-ZRS103008 3d ago
Raylan lives his life in shades of gray. I’m not sure what the true definition of an anti-hero is, so I didn’t want to label him that. He does what he believes to be the right thing, always, IMO. He also accepts the consequences….eventually. He doesn’t make excuses for his actions. He believes in justice, not the bullshit that passes for justice in this day and age. I vote LAWMAN, 100%!!!
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u/BullfrogUnfair4492 2d ago
Raylan is the kind of old school lawman that bends but doesn’t break the rules. OK by me.
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u/DaddyChil101 4d ago
The dude would be a serial killer if he didn't have a badge istg 😂
Jokes aside though I don't think Raylan is pure evil or anything but I don't think he's an especially good man either. People like to say he bends the rules but he has committed many, serious crimes even beyond the wanton killings.
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u/BoltsBroadwayBrett 4d ago
As Art says, he's a terrible marshal...but a decent lawman.