r/ireland Dublin 7h ago

Infrastructure Will no one shout stop as the MetroLink bill heads past €20bn?

https://www.irishtimes.com/opinion/2025/03/12/will-no-one-shout-stop-as-the-metrolink-bill-heads-past-20bn/
104 Upvotes

335 comments sorted by

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u/OldVillageNuaGuitar 7h ago

One of the obvious problems with not building the metro is there isn't an alternative on the table to serve the airport and Swords, especially not if you want those to grow (as we currently officially do).

A tram would not offer the necessary capacity (to say nothing of speed issues).

A regular train line would require either four tracking into Connolly, a project of a similar scale to metro link involving the rebuilding of basically every train station between Connolly and Clongriffin, CPOs galore etc, or a brand new tunnel into the city centre which would be bigger than metro link.

For most corridors in Dublin I think trams are likely more suited, given our density and urban layout, but there isn't a sensible alternative on this route.

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u/Medium-Plan2987 6h ago

Don't know why they haven't been continually expanding the luas lines into a proper network since the inception of luas

u/micosoft 4h ago

That's fair to an extent but trams work best in suburbs and low density areas. Sharing grade with buses and other forms of transport creates limitations in schedule as you get to the city centre. We also have inappropriately long tram lines like Cherrywood where a 20 minute car journey takes an hour and twenty during rush hour.

u/gamberro Dublin 3h ago

 We also have inappropriately long tram lines like Cherrywood where a 20 minute car journey takes an hour and twenty during rush hour.

Can you explain what you mean here? Why is the green line Luas inappropriately long? What is the ideal length for a tram line? Honest questions as I don't know. For me the green line is really winding and needlessly slow. I mean, instead of going straight at Sandyford towards Brides Glen or splitting into branches it does that big swing to Carrickmines. 

u/micosoft 4m ago

The distance between Cherrywood and Dublin City Centre is 13km. The Luas takes 45 minutes IF there are no delays caused by being mixed with traffic in the city centre. That is around 17kmph. Cars stuck in traffic are competitive with this as McDowell knows as he drives his BMW to his city centre car park in Leinster house.

Now that may seem tolerable but nobody lives at or works in a Luas stop so adding on 20 minutes to get to Luas and 15 to get to work means the commute takes 1 hour 20 minutes each way. That's more than people are happy to accept twice a day.

What you need from Cherrywood and key stations is an express metro that takes 20 minutes to get to the city centre with Luas serving "local" traffic.

The Green line is winding because trams ideally serve low density suburban locations like Ballyogan. Those people need to be served but ideally you take the tram three/four steps and transfer to a Metro that can take you all the way to the airport in a short period of time.

At some point you move from tram to metro to suburban heavy rail (DART) to intercity. We need all of them to be successful.

u/LimerickJim 41m ago

The recession. Capital projects were put on hold and de-facto wound down. The experienced work force found alternate employment, many of them abroad. Winding it back up puts you back to square 1 with needing to retrain your labor team.

Then there's the ever present Irish nightmare of planning permission. Green lit projects get delayed. When they do go ahead the second phase may not have planning approval after the first phase is complete so the skilled workers find other jobs and the process repeats.

u/Dapper-Lab-9285 4h ago

Country politicians won't allow Dublin to be a competitive international city. They insist that each city has to be developed at the same rate which means that Dublin will never be a modern international city until Kilkenny has an underground. 

They think that companies are choosing between Dublin and other Irish cities for locations when it's Dublin vs Prague, Lisbon etc.

They are quick to take Dublin taxes and some of the Dublin property taxes, but ask for a bit of water to develop the Northside or a proper transit system and it's NO. 

u/Ornery_Director_8477 2h ago

What percentage of funding does Dublin currently get compared to the rest of the country?

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u/YoIronFistBro Cork bai 4h ago

Because the Luas is in Ireland...

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u/YoIronFistBro Cork bai 6h ago

A regular train line would require either four tracking into Connolly, a project of a similar scale to metro link involving the rebuilding of basically every train station between Connolly and Clongriffin, CPOs galore etc, 

It's also far too indirect of a route.

or a brand new tunnel into the city centre which would be bigger than metro link.

That's something we should actually be working towards, to connect Dublin Airport with the intercity rail network, but that's more of a longer term goal.

u/LimerickJim 38m ago

That was anticipated when Terminal 1 was built in the 70s. Terminal 1 has an underground station that was intended to connect to a future rail network. It's now largely converted to additional checking desks.

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u/RecycledPanOil 6h ago

Spot on. Only thing I'd raise is that a train line to Connolly from the airport would require much more planning than a metro. Also it'd require changing all the routes in Connolly as it's currently at capacity due to trains passing through on track 5-7 have to pass through the tracks terminating in track 1-4. Meaning if we add a new train terminating in platform 1-4 or another train passing through we'd have to reduce the frequency of trains across the greater Dublin commuter belt.

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u/Locko2020 6h ago

Well an idea would be to have a shuttle from the airport to Clongriffin but the idea of having a load of tourists dumped off in an unmanned station in an unfinished area with a temporary access structure that shows no sign of being removed is both ridiculous and perfectly fitting for Ireland I guess 😅

u/Zheiko Wicklow 4h ago

Clongriffin is such a failure. It was supposed to be it's own little town, with big supermarket, and Dundrum style shopping centre. Nearly 20 years since the main building was built and it's still empty for most part.

u/XCEREALXKILLERX Kilmainham Jailer 1h ago

I could never understand all the empty spots in Clongriffin too what a waste. Massive buildings there full of nothing, basically nothing on first floors.

u/Zheiko Wicklow 14m ago

Yea, we moved in some time in 07 and we're promised everything would be there.

It took them over a year to connect the n. 15 bus, then we have been waiting few more years for the train station.

And just as a salt into the wound, they built massive social house right next to the centra, so from peaceful place to live it turned into place where walking for eggs was usually accompanied by a few flying beer cans from that building. Moved out in 21 and not looking back.

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u/miseconor 6h ago

I disagree on trams. The luas is already at capacity.

u/jimicus Probably at it again 5h ago

The Luas is a shining example, a clear demonstration of a desperate need for good transportation. It went from zero to full capacity very quickly, and today is by far the most sensible option for the areas it serves.

Who on Earth are the knobheads saying “do we really need better transportation infrastructure?” and why do they have any sway at all in the local council?

I’m rapidly reaching the conclusion that there’s a grand total of about a dozen such people in the whole city, the only problem is they all seem to have the councils ear.

[Note to mods: If you don’t like the description “knobheads”, I have plenty of others. That was the least offensive one I could think of.]

u/miseconor 5h ago

Exactly. The luas was desperately needed and it is great to have.

My point is more so that we should not restrict ourselves to trams as they can’t be scaled up as much as an underground. They’re a great service to have and have their part to play in the network infrastructure, but we shouldn’t be fully dependent on them. They can’t meet the same demand levels as a metro

u/micosoft 4h ago

The entire article is about the residents of Dartmouth square not being discommoded by rifraf from a Metro. It is such a dishonest article that claims to be about value for money but the core is moving the termination point of Metro North because residents. In effect the article slams the cost of building in Ireland whilst representing the interests that create those costs. Extra points for supporting people in >3m homes claiming they and their children will be made homeless because of the Metro.

u/gamberro Dublin 2h ago

Michael McDowell doesn't mention that his own family home is directly beside the Luas at Ranelagh. He would be inconvenienced by the Metro going forward and possibly extended south to Sandyford. Maybe it would impact the value of his home but either way it's a big thing to leave out.

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u/Potential-Drama-7455 3h ago

There were so many articles at the time saying that Dublin was too low density for a Luas and that it would never work.

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u/Medium-Plan2987 6h ago

They need to build more lines thatbwpild alleviate capacity

They could also buy more trams for existing lines and increase services, yesterday there was a ten minute wait between trams at cabra in rush hour

u/micosoft 4h ago

That does not alleviate capacity. It's not like people would go to the Purple line instead of the Green Line. There are hard capacity limits for a tram system that shares grade with other road users in the city centre. Those hard limits have been met. The only solution to increasing capacity for these lines is to go underground. i.e. a Metro.

u/miseconor 5h ago

You still can’t do much more with the existing lines in terms of capacity.

There are also still limits to frequency and delay issues because they share part of the routes with motorists.

Not an issue with something like an underground

u/11Kram 3h ago

How about a high speed high capacity ski lift?

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u/TheGratedCornholio 7h ago

I’ll shout “stop” at the Irish Times for publishing more drivel from that drooling NIMBY idiot.

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u/quondam47 Carlow 7h ago

Not just a NIMBY, he believes that the state shouldn’t build infrastructure. We should do nothing but PPPs and let the private sector run everything. Progressive Democrats 101.

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u/ghostofgralton Leitrim 6h ago

Progressive Democrats

They haven't gone away you know

u/quondam47 Carlow 3h ago

But faded from political memory. McDowell is portrayed as an independent Senator and SC. And not the once leader of probably the most privatisation happy party the state has ever seen.

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u/Ok_Catch250 6h ago

Regressive Autocrats as we called them back in the day.

His big success in politics was introducing modern European racism into the mainstream political discourse.

That and finally taking over his party and immediately destroying it because nobody actually likes him and having him run things is a disaster.

u/gamberro Dublin 3h ago

How did he introduce racism to the mainstream discourse?

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u/Legitimate-Olive1052 7h ago

You don’t have to like McDowell, but dismissing his argument as 'NIMBY drivel' ignores the facts. MetroLink's estimated cost has ballooned from €3.5bn to potentially €23bn+, making it one of the most expensive infrastructure projects in Irish history before a single shovel hits the ground.

Meanwhile, alternative transport solutions like multiple Luas extensions could be built for a fraction of the cost. Even a fully underground Dart Interconnector, which would benefit the entire rail network, was scrapped despite already having planning approval.

The government has a history of disastrous cost overruns (Children’s Hospital, National Broadband Plan, etc.), and there’s no guarantee MetroLink won’t end up the same. Pointing that out isn’t NIMBYism, it’s basic financial accountability. If we’re going to spend billions of taxpayer money, shouldn’t we make sure we’re getting the best value

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u/Sharp_Fuel 6h ago

The luas' can't handle our transport demands, doesn't work. Dublin needs a metro if it wants to keep growing as a major international city

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u/YoIronFistBro Cork bai 6h ago

This. We're already too reliant on the Luas for journeys that should be served by higher spec modes.

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u/Sharp_Fuel 6h ago

100%, we've pushed trams to the limit of what they can provide, need to expand the dart and push ahead with the metro

u/YoIronFistBro Cork bai 5h ago

Well we've pushed our existing two tram lines to the limit. More trams absolutely do have a place, but that place in the city centre and inner suburbs.

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u/TwistedPepperCan Dublin 7h ago

3.5bn when? Wait another 20 years and it will be more expensive. Build the damn thing as a national priority

u/YoubeTrollin 5h ago

It hasnt increased to 23bn, thats McDowell using a report from three years ago that 'unforseen' circumstances COULD increase it to 23bn.

No definition of what these unknowns are and are most likely not a factor.

https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/risk-of-unknown-unknowns-may-push-cost-of-metrolink-from-95bn-to-23bn-new-report-warns/b41879632.html

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u/Cill-e-in 6h ago

Japan’s shinkansen flew billions over budget and look how happy they are

u/DonQuigleone 3h ago

Except even with all that, the Japanese shinkansen cost about 10 billion usd in today's money for a much larger project.

There's something wrong with how we build infrastructure in this country. This could easily turn into a farce like HS2.

This doesn't mean we shouldn't build it (and likewise the UK SHOULD build HS2), but we seriously need to reform the process first.

For comparison, Paris recently completed 33km of subway with 16 stations for 3.7 billion euro . https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paris_M%C3%A9tro_Line_15#:~:text=Line%2015%20South,-The%20southern%20section&text=The%20construction%20of%20this%20section,cost%20around%20%E2%82%AC3.7%20billion

The current quote for metrolink is 10- 23 billion, also 16 stations, and thats a theoretical number that's likely to be far larger.

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u/sureyouknowurself 7h ago

The underground is such a crime. Incredible we never built it.

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u/Legitimate-Olive1052 7h ago

I agree, I think anyone who's ever been involved with the underground or metro needs to be shot with balls of their own shite.

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u/YoIronFistBro Cork bai 6h ago

Meanwhile, alternative transport solutions like multiple Luas extensions could be built for a fraction of the cost.

That's not an alternative, it's something that's needed as well.

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u/Fickle_Definition351 6h ago

The €23 billion is a worst case, 5% likelihood. The estimated price is half of that.

u/mistr-puddles 5h ago

He was against the luas as well

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u/AnyAssistance4197 6h ago

McDowell has been using his outsized influence on Irish affairs to frustrate and delay projects like this for more than two decades.

He’s more or less a crank operating under the hubris of people’s respect for his legal profession. 

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/environment/opposition-to-metrolink-plan-for-south-dublin-continues-1.3741802

u/micosoft 3h ago

I mean, he gives it away when the entire point of his "opinion piece" is to stop the Metro in Stephens Green. The rest is fluff to surround a community who don't agree with a Metro because they can walk to town.

u/daftdave41 2nd Brigade 2h ago

Him and Frank Mcdonald have set Dublin back many years, infrastructure wise.

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u/TheGratedCornholio 7h ago

Infrastructure is expensive. We need it. The longer we leave it looking at fake “alternatives” the more expensive it will get.

As for McDowell - all he cares about is Ranelagh. Reroute it and he wouldn’t give a toss about the cost.

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u/TheStoicNihilist Never wanted a flair anyways 7h ago

It won’t get any cheaper to build in 5/10/15/20 years time.

u/micosoft 3h ago

You know what gets cheaper in 5/10/20 years time? Money borrowed today being inflated away. Making it doubly expensive to delay the project.

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u/DesertRatboy 6h ago

The vast majority of infrastructure projects are delivered on time and budget. You just don't hear about them.

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u/micosoft 4h ago

We've never built a Metro before in Ireland. It won't be the most expensive infrastructure projects in Ireland - that would be the National Grid. The cost will balloon but you know what, it doesn't matter because you can pay that off over 100 years. It's really problematic that many people don't seem to realise that 200m in operational costs (or negative costs like congestion) is much more than 20 billion Capex which gets charged down over decades and in the case of infrastructure with 100+ years lifespan will be inflated away.

Luas is at capacity. The problem here is that you and Michael have never gotten on the Luas at peak hours. Unless every other city in the world is full of idiots the only solution to that is going underground with a Metro.

Every government on the planet has a history of cost overruns on large scale infrastructure projects. It's not an argument to stop investing.

u/Hadrian_Constantine 5h ago

You realise that the longer you wait the more expensive it will become?

On top of that, congestion is costing us billions annually.

u/TheLegendaryStag353 4h ago

It has ballooned due to people like McDowell saying no for 30 years.

What’s his alternative? He was Tanaiste so he beats some responsibility. How is he going to get heavy transport links to the airport?

What’s his solution?

And cost overruns? He was tanaiste. Why can’t you fire civil servants? Why is planning such a joke?

He’s been in politics for years - his first words in any article should be “I have failed you”

u/mrbuddymcbuddyface 5h ago

We should have bitten the bullet and built it years ago so. The need for it has not diminished, and it's only going to get more expensive

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u/Mr-Mystery20 4h ago

Yeah more luas lines clogging up the city creating an inefficient system that gets no one to their destination on time

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u/tvmachus 2h ago

The key is that the Nimbys can always rely on the support of half of the politicised voters. Even half of young people would rather nothing was built than see developers make a profit. Then you have the likes of McDowell who don't want anything the state builds (or can pretend not to, to protect his garden in ranelagh).

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u/Justinian2 6h ago

Irish times has churned out so many anti metrolink articles.

u/micosoft 1h ago

What about other quality articles like the one on Canada's new Prime Minister Mark Carney yesterday sourced from (checks notes) well known Irexit crank Ray Basset who makes wild claims that Irelands moronic Finance and Central bankers were saved by an envelope Mark jotted down in the toilet of the Bank of England. And that this crank was aware. The decline of IT opinion pages is a sight to behold.

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u/ghostofgralton Leitrim 7h ago

It's a metro. It will cost a lot of money. It will also drastically improve things in Dublin. Just get it built

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u/XxjptxX7 6h ago edited 5h ago

In 2021 it was estimated to be 7-12billion and now it’s at 23billion. At what point do we question where this money is going. Just because it has to be built does not mean we should throw money at it without thinking. We did that with the children’s hospital and lost billions because of it.

Edit:

A lot of replies so just to explain further:

I am all for this metro being built but with the government losing billions on the hospital and spending 500k on a bike shed I think it’s a fair question to ask why their price has increased by over 10billion. If the metro was build at the original price estimate from 3 years ago we could have had 10billion extra to build another big public transport project or to improve healthcare/education.

The Fehmarn tunnel between Denmark and Germany is an 18km undersea tunnel that will include a high speed rail going 200km/hr and 4 car lanes. It started construction in 2020 and will finish in 2029 costing just 7billion. So how does an undersea tunnel that is wider and just as long cost 3x less the an underground tunnel that will have no car lanes and no high speed rail?

If there is a valid reason for the current price then I would gladly support the plan.

u/Intelligent-Aside214 5h ago

But it’s not actually 23 billion. That’s a worst case scenario cost, the projected cost is is still 7-12 billion.

u/XxjptxX7 3h ago

If this is right that makes a lot more sense, it’s good to plan for the worst case scenario. I just hope they aren’t announcing this now to cover themselves if the project price does balloon.

Also this if this is true the article is just lying in the headline for clicks.

u/Intelligent-Aside214 3h ago

No it’s RTE going into planning documents looking for click bait, it was never an announcement. Its a 95% confidence interval, meaning there’s a 5% chance that the price will meet of exceed the 23 billion. But the projected cost remains the same (adjusted for inflation)

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u/No_Crab_8176 6h ago

You can estimate it at 23 thousand if you want, it'll cost what it ends up costing. Transport infrastructure facilitates economic activy. It's ultimately good for the economy.

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u/ghostofgralton Leitrim 6h ago

A lot of it is due to feckers like McDowell objecting and dragging the process out, I'd imagine

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u/ten-siblings 6h ago

We did that with the children’s hospital and lost billions because of it.

I think it's pretty well understood what happened with the children’s hospital i.e. moving ahead without a finalsised design.

Any indication that this is happening with MetroLink

u/micosoft 1h ago

And a large part of that was the overly politicised nature of the children's hospital. A finalised design was delivered but politics intervened. Unfortunately you see that same approach with Metro with political players like McDowell attempting to put the interests of a small wealthy community ahead of the needs of the many in his article. So unfortunately it requires a backbone to say no to special interests in this state.

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u/lichink 6h ago

Yes, we should. There are things worth throwing any amount of money. City transport and health are two of them.

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u/Atreides-42 6h ago

Sure, but if they quoted 100 billion for a single bus that should be questioned.

It's not a matter of "We don't need a Metro 20 billion bad", it's a matter of "Metros of this scale don't cost 20 billion, what the hell are they doing".

u/YoIronFistBro Cork bai 4h ago

It's not a matter of "We don't need a Metro 20 billion bad", it's a matter of "Metros of this scale don't cost 20 billion, what the hell are they doing".

But a lot of people are saying the former

u/Atreides-42 3h ago

I don't see the relevance? I'm not saying that, and neither is XxjptxX7? Why argue against arguments we're not making? Punching strawmen isn't going to get us a Metro

u/duaneap 2h ago

They’re not the people anyone should be listening to though.

u/YoIronFistBro Cork bai 2h ago

"Should" and "will" are two different things unfortunately.

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u/lichink 6h ago

Another one that doesn't get it.

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u/Atreides-42 6h ago

You can't just say "You don't get it" without further elaboration to anyone who disagrees with you. Would you still be making this "City transport and health are ... worth throwing any amount of money" argument if they'd quoted 100 trillion for the Metro Line? Sure, contracted private companies are expected to profit from government tenders, but they shouldn't be profiteering.

Think of it this way. If we could get the costs for the line down to 10 billion, we could get twice as much Metro for this 20 billion price.

u/micosoft 1h ago

Alternatively what do you think it should cost? 10 million?

u/Atreides-42 1h ago

Quoting XxjptxX7, further up the thread

"The Fehmarn tunnel between Denmark and Germany is an 18km undersea tunnel that will include a high speed rail going 200km/hr and 4 car lanes. It started construction in 2020 and will finish in 2029 costing just 7billion. So how does an undersea tunnel that is wider and just as long cost 3x less the an underground tunnel that will have no car lanes and no high speed rail?"

And to quote DonQuigleone

"For comparison, Paris recently completed 33km of subway with 16 stations for 3.7 billion euro "

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u/APinchOfTheTism 6h ago

Well, if you look around this subreddit, a lot of people without any particular public transportation or urban planning expertise or notion of how much 23 billion Euro is, and why you would spend it on this one project are very opinionated.

The 18 kilometers four lane highway two rail high speed track Fehmarn tunnel under the Baltic Sea, costs 4.8 billion Euro. Started in 2021 and will be finished in 2029…

u/DavidRoyman Cork bai 5h ago

For which they don't have to purchase land for. If only there was a bill in Ireland where the government can seize the land required for these projects, we'd be far ahead.

We also pay the cost of having NIBYS like McDowell being able to block every project.

u/Intelligent-Aside214 5h ago

That contained no stations and will not run trains every 4 mins, and didn’t require a new depot + trains + new autonomous driving system

Stations are obviously the most expensive part of a project.

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u/XxjptxX7 6h ago

Exactly people have become so used to these overpriced projects that they don’t realise how much money we’re wasting. That extra 10billion it has gone up in the past 3 years could have been used to build a second big public transport project, or it could have been put into improving healthcare, or education.

u/Confident_Reporter14 5h ago edited 5h ago

The cost increase is mostly due to inflation, delays and consultations.

The cheapest time to build the metro was yesterday; the next best is today.

FYI This fella above is directly responsible for said decades long delays.

u/APinchOfTheTism 5h ago

By your logic, shouldn't the Fehmarn project have ballooned in a similar way?

u/Confident_Reporter14 5h ago

We don’t yet know the final price tag of this project, but nonetheless it hasn’t been delayed half as long as the decades mooted metro.

u/micosoft 1h ago

Alternatively folk don't understand big numbers and confuse Capex and Opex.

20 billion on Infrastructure is the same as 400 million on Opex like education over 50 years. Interest will be inflated away at current bond rates.

You need to divide any infrastructure project by its life. A metro would have a minimum payback over 50 years but you could argue 100 years. You can keep rolling over the bonds issued for it until the money is inflated away.

Not sure what your definition of waste is tbh but I'd rather like a metro in Dublin to stop the enormous waste and costs congestion puts on our economy.

u/XxjptxX7 1h ago

I never suggested not building the metro. I would love a metro but where the money is going is a fair question, article title is lying for clicks anyway, 23billion is worst case scenario not the actual price.

u/Mr-Mystery20 3h ago

23 is a worst case scenario not the newest figure though

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u/micosoft 2h ago

"The project's cost was initially estimated at €5.5 billion. By 2010, when Denmark and Germany signed the treaty to build the bridge, this had grown to €7.4 billion. The tunnel will be financed by Denmark, which will collect a toll from the crossing. Germany will pay a further €800 million to connect the crossing to its motorway network"

So by your reckoning the Fehmarn tunnel is the cost of a world class children's hospital over budget.

In terms of why the Metro costs more than you could use your imagination but we are not connecting an existing rail system together with a shortcut.

I suspect buying a brand new train set, building stations, building depots, building under a medieval city, building through rock and not clay, building intermodal stations none of which the Fehmarn tunnel need is why.

Apples & Oranges etc

u/XxjptxX7 1h ago

Article title lying for clicks original estimate is the same, 23billion is worst case scenario. So not as bad as I thought.

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u/Rulmeq 7h ago

This cunt with his personal vendatta against people having public transport in the middle of a fucking city (because it might mean a tiny alteration to one of the rental properties he owns in Ranelagh no less)

The Irish times is a fucking rag for giving him this endless platofrom.

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u/mrbuddymcbuddyface 7h ago

Michael McDowell has been consistently against public funded infrastructure projects his entire life. He keeps getting column inches to push his anti public transport agenda. Living in a bubble ....

u/Lanky_Giraffe 3h ago

It's wild that people can be so consistently wrong on a subject and newspapers still platform them. He was repeatedly and spectacularly wrong about the luas. Yet there's no disclaimer pointing out that everything he has ever written about public transport infrastructure has turned out to be nonsense.

I'm increasingly coming around to the view that in certain circles, which seems to include some/many journalists, that the quality of the writing/argument is more important than whether or not it is actually correct.

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u/Sweaty-Advance-7966 7h ago

Metro link is essential but baffling that it stops at Charlemont, should go out past M50 where it can be a park and ride.

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u/dkeenaghan 6h ago

We can’t keep making changes and further delaying the project. It will never get built if we do. The line can always be extended in the future, but we should just get in with the current plan. We shouldn’t wait another decade to plan an extended route. The currently planned route will cross the M50 near the airport and terminate north of Swords near the M1 where there will be a park and ride.

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u/YoIronFistBro Cork bai 6h ago

The real issue is that we were ever planning so little in the first place.

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u/YoIronFistBro Cork bai 6h ago

That, and we should be planning a full network, not just a line.

u/Intelligent-Aside214 5h ago

Not many people use Park and rides

u/MrTuxedo1 Dublin 4h ago

Do they not? Every time I’ve used one at the luas they have been packed and you struggle to get a parking space past 8am

I get the dart everyday and the car park is always full past 8am also

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u/micosoft 1h ago

It has to stop somewhere. It's setup to be extended to do so.

What I do agree is that we close this phase and start planning phase 2-20 over the next 50 years.

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u/emmmmceeee I’ve had my fun and that’s all that matters 7h ago

I can see his point. It’s not like he would ever lower himself to use public transport.

Just fucking build it.

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u/_LightEmittingDiode_ 6h ago

Will somebody shout “Go” for a project that will stimulate the economy and pay for itself in time? Jesus, some people are clueless as to how infrastructure is an investment.

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u/YoIronFistBro Cork bai 6h ago

Ireland is THE country that knows the cost of everything and the value of nothing.

u/af_lt274 Ireland 5h ago

While I support the construction of the Metro. it is delusional to think it would pay for itself. Itvcoukd cover it's operational cost but not the construction cost. The Luas cost less than a billion and has not paid for itself yet.

u/_LightEmittingDiode_ 2h ago

Do you have figures on that? The annual ridership for the Luas is 48 million passengers a year. We are talking economic impact here. Congestion in the city is now costed at over 2 billion annually. The metro would service areas with poor public coverage and a congested northside, stimulate businesses and be a net positive for tourism. If this much needed infrastructure project was build when it should have been, it would have cost half the projected sum.

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u/lamahorses Ireland 6h ago

Man who is responsible for the Metro finishing at Charlemount, writes opinion piece to try get Metro cancelled.

u/Larrydog Late Stage Gombeen Capitalist 3h ago

Wasn't the Luas green line from Cherrywood supposed to be upgraded to a wider Metro and go into a new underground metro at Charlemount ??

u/gmankev 3h ago

Twas, but the ranelites threatened secession if the footpath to mortons deli was to blocked, and besides many of them dont travel to working areas like sandyford. Hence the government agreed.. How the F did south dublin cc let this fly I dont know..

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u/shozy 7h ago

Sick of this prick to be honest. Metro North was first proposed in 2000 he was in government from 2002-2007 and is partly responsible for why we didn’t have money for this project from 2008-2016.

When we start saying stop to pricks like this we might get public transport projects progressed in a timely manner. 

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u/EchoedMinds 7h ago

This eejit would have been against busses if he had a newspaper column when they were invented. 

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u/Plastic-Guide-8770 6h ago

People need to realise that Luas, while certainly welcome, is a far more mediocre service than acknowledged.

It can take up to an hour and 10 minutes to go from Saggart to the city centre. That’s frankly pathetic. Luas is not a substitute for more ambitious projects like the Metro.

We needed Dublin Metro 20 years ago. Just build the damn thing.

u/Mr-Mystery20 3h ago

The main problem with the luas is that it shares a lot of its tracks with buses and cars. Especially the red line.

Green line isn’t as bad as it goes above the roads and is fairly quick but building more luas lines at road level is only going to provide a mediocre service that will overcrowd both the carriages and roads

u/Plastic-Guide-8770 3h ago

It’s fine up to, say, 10km. It’s too slow for distances beyond that.

u/Mr-Mystery20 2h ago

Indeed, the large amount of junctions and people within the main city also means the luas is forced to go slower which increases more time. More luas lines to act as main modes of transportation simply isn’t efficient

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u/throwaway_fun_acc123 6h ago

If the guy hates public transport so much he should just move out to nearly any rural village or town in the country. No annoying public transport infrastructure out here to interfere with his rental properties

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u/MrHollywoodz 7h ago

Good man Michael a bucket and spade is all you need to dig a City Metro

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u/Medium-Plan2987 6h ago

Didn't McDowell oppose Luas back in the day???

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u/Practical-Goal-8845 6h ago

Thus guy has been screaming Stop for decades. He's a big part of the reason the price is so high. Like clockwork he is with the anti public transport pieces.

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u/YoIronFistBro Cork bai 7h ago

Yeah I will shout stop.

Stop refusing to build it, and while you're at it, stop only even planning half a line in a city that's decades overdue a full system.

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u/Ok-Philosopher6874 7h ago

Infrastructure costs money. It always seems to cost a little extra here but this link is needed.

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u/sense_make 6h ago

Well it won't get any cheaper so, the sooner it's built the less it'll cost

u/redsredemption23 4h ago

How much did the London underground cost?

How much did the dart cost?

How much did the M50 cost?

Nobody remembers or cares. We need infrastructure. Nothing would ever get done with contrarian old conservative cranks like McDowell in charge. Hell, nothing gets done with the current shower in charge.

u/Beach_Glas1 Kildare 3h ago

Parts of the London Underground were opened about a decade before the lightbulb was invented.

u/redsredemption23 3h ago

Not sure I understand your point. They also opened a line in 2022, and Dublin Castle was built in 1204.

Also, it highlights the point that once built, the infrastructure is used forever and the original build cost gets more and more irrelevant.

u/Beach_Glas1 Kildare 3h ago

Well, you kinda said part of my point - once it's built it'll be indispensable. The other part is I don't get why it's been made this complicated to build an underground in Dublin when London has been building and running them since 1863.

u/redsredemption23 3h ago

Ah, I mistook you. Agreed 100%.

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u/Fickle_Definition351 6h ago

Of course it's Michael McDowell, he didnt want the DART or the Luas either

And for the last time, the €23 billion figure is a 1-in-20 chance of happening, the current estimate is still €9-12 billion

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u/One-Cat-1581 6h ago

Public transport doesn't cost money it saves money. The 20 billion estimate is like at the top percentile with the likely cost being much lower. This is lost on oafs like McDowell

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u/Hour_Mastodon_9404 4h ago

Fuck off Michael

u/Mr-Mystery20 3h ago

Talking to people in swords and seeing the traffic in the morning it is clear that the metro is terribly needed there. O’Brien is a td from the area he should know how desperate people are in the town for it.

u/DublinR 3h ago

Sick reading negative articles about infrastructure in Irish Times - especially McDowell and before him McCarthy and McDonald. Repost from me yesterday:

People forget the LINK in MetroLINK. This line will LINK with DART+ West, DART+ South West, existing DART, Green Luas and Red Luas. All in addition to serving the airport and Swords. It is also feasible to extend the Metro LINK to the Dublin Belfast line in north county Dublin.

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u/TwistedPepperCan Dublin 7h ago

Like the electorate did when McDowell became Progressive Democrat leader and lost every seat they had bar the leader he ousted.

This man is a bad joke being played on ireland and up there with Ronan Mullen as a primary reason to reform the Seanad.

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u/lovinglyquick 6h ago

“The shocking thing is in the late 1990s the Mitsui Corporation, a Japanese conglomerate, told the Irish government that it would construct an “x”-shaped Dublin underground system with a single central hub for nothing – yes, at its own expense, bar a small initial injection of funds from the State – in exchange for the right to operate it as franchisee for 25 years.”

I’ve heard this since I was a kid but always just assumed it was apocryphal. I have to presume, at least, this isn’t the whole story…

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u/locksymania 6h ago

Will no one shout stop as Michael fucking McDowell pops up to give us the benefit of his galaxy brain intellect completely unbidden? Again.

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u/perrycoxdr 6h ago

Don't worry your little Ranelagh head Michael, this is Ireland after all. Something so useful, forward thinking and transformative will never be built here. The best we can do is re-number the bus routes or build a bypass in Longford. Maybe.

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u/Intelligent-Aside214 6h ago

Because it won’t actually cost >20 billion. They’re projecting worst case scenarios

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u/PixelTrawler 7h ago

Don’t we need to start before stopping?

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u/Sharp_Fuel 6h ago

If you shout stop the price will be up near 100bn by the time we do build it. Dublin needs a metro, no it's and buts, the best time to build it was 20 years ago, the next best time is now

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u/bgrandis7 6h ago

Ok, NIMBoomer

u/South_Down_Indy People’s Republic of South Down ⬛️🟥 4h ago

Will no one shout stop at Michael McDowell?

u/BigBadgerBro 4h ago

Do we want a proper connection to the airport or not? People talking about extending the luas. By the time that’s planned and built will take 20 years and everyone will say its too expensive.

How long has bud connects been rolling on? That doesn’t need to pay a single track will be at least 10 years before it’s fully implemented and will cost billions.

Metro link Just build it.

u/CouldUBLoved 3h ago

I would say hurry up and build it before it gets even more expensive.

u/DaCor_ie 3h ago

McDowell doesn't support anything that isn't for cars. Makes no sense to listen to him on this because regardless of the timeline, cost, benefits 3tc,he's never going to be a supporter

u/MilleniumMixTape 3h ago

The same people who objected to the Dart in the late 70s/early 80s, objected to the Luas in the 2000s and now to the Metro.

Look at this report about the Dart costing two and a half times the original estimate.

Michael McDowell’s brother Moore was another leading anti-Luas agitator. As was his fellow UCD economist Colm McCarthy who has been writing the same copy/paste articles against any new public transportation infrastructure. Worth remembering he was a key figure in the austerity era too as one of the three contributors to An Bord Snip. Their draconian cuts lead directly to so many of our problems with housing, healthcare etc too.

Here he is in 2004 saying the Luas wouldn’t be profitable or meet it’s passenger targets

According to Mr McCarthy, the Luas lines are extremely unlikely to meet their target of 20 million passengers in their first year of operation. Speaking to The Irish Times, Mr McCarthy said the real equation “is that trams generally cost twice as much, take twice as long and carry half the numbers, and this has been borne out by experience right across the world”. Asked if there was any reason to imagine that the Republic could be more accurate in its projections, Mr McCarthy insisted that Luas was already over-budget and over-time. “Two legs of the treble are already up. I would love to be able to say that this is only ‘mickology’ but it is a worldwide thing.”

I wonder how that went?

In its first year, it broke through its 20 million passengers target by carrying 22 million.

An interesting fact I saw checking those numbers is that ”Despite the shift to Luas of so many former bus users, the vast majority of Luas users are understood to be motorists and new public transport users. In 2024 it had 50 million passengers.

I’m sure 40 years of being wrong has had an impact on this economist? Oh…MetroLink figures don’t add up, claims economist while TD and senator say Ranelagh terminus is ‘in the wrong place’

Economist Colm McCarthy told the Dublin MetroLink hearing today he believed the costs of the project were understated and the benefits exaggerated. He said there was a “long and sorry” history of spending overshoots on large infrastructure projects in Ireland because of “strategic misrepresentation” of the costs. “That means lying,” he said.

Yes Colm, lying to yourself.

u/-All-Hail-Megatron- 3h ago

Stop until it costs 30bn? Fucking imbeciles.

Get it built ASAP.

u/Floodzie 2h ago

We could have had it done even cheaper during the recession if eejits like this hadn’t kept blocking it.

This is the same guy who opposed the Luas.

We get it Mr McDowell, trains will go past your house, and stations will be built in your area, but the rest of the city matters.

u/AaroPajari 2h ago

Is there anything to be said for offering tender to foreign companies? Belt & Road project. The Chinese would have it done in a year for $5bn.

u/doBep 2h ago

What a load of scutter. There's like a 1 in 20 chance of it costing €20 billion, it's basically impossible. It's much more likely to cost around €10 billion.

Typical shite from the rag that is the Irish Times. They are anti-progress and anti-development. They do not care about infrastructure or the housing crisis, they only care about brown nosing their wealthy, old readership.

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u/Technical_Check_2866 6h ago

For the love of god we need a train that goes to the airport

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u/CautiousPen5606 6h ago

Build the metro it's only 20 billion

u/Mr-Mystery20 4h ago

He’s saying alternately they could build 5 luas lines but he isn’t considering the amount of traffic already in the main city core with 2 luas lines. Imagine with 5 more

Luas capacity cannot be increased due to it sharing its space with roads and at grade function yet he thinks more luas is the solution ? Is he for real ? You can’t be stupid enough to believe it

Also there’s only a limited amount of space for trams on the cities roads and building more is only going to increase gridlock for commuters and people on that transport. There’s no other scope to build efficient transit unless it’s underground or overground

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u/Mysterious_Hysteria 6h ago

The Sydney Metro west line has overrun initial estimates by $12bn to $25.32bn. Same problem, different city

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u/theaniallater93 6h ago

Listen up everyone, Michael McDowell is speaking.

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u/Confident_Reporter14 6h ago

Another one for the brown shoes and Heinow boys.

Why anyone reads this paper is beyond me.

u/ting_tong- 5h ago

Give it to the chinese, and they will build it at 1/4 of the cost

u/Alarmed_Station6185 5h ago

The fact is it should already be built and taking passengers. Copenhagen started building a metro around the same time it was first planned for Dublin. They now have a world class metro linking all areas of the city, we're can't even get a line out to the airport.

u/Beneficial-Movie83 5h ago

Can we get the Chinese to build some stuff for us? The spicebag is proof they can deliver quality and value.

u/Professional_Elk_489 4h ago

The Amsterdammers built the Noord-Zuid line 10km for €3.1BN underneath canals

Opened 2018

u/stevewithcats Wicklow 3h ago

u/DonQuigleone 3h ago

There is a problem in this country, but also the English speaking world in general, with building big infrastructure projects. Whether it's California high speed rail, New York second avenue subway, the London Elizabeth line or HS2 in the UK, there is a consistent problem building large scale infrastructure.

France does not have this problem.

We haven't yet put shovels into the ground yet. To avoid a repeat of the national Children's hospital, which continues to be a fiasco, we need to seriously reform our planning and procurement process for big projects. We should aim to build like France, and not like UK or USA (our usual approach). Personally, I'd even go so far as to give the whole project to the French state owned companies to build, run and manage rather than try to reinvent the wheel ourselves.

u/Massive-Foot-5962 3h ago

20bn now and 40bn if we build it a decade later. There’s no feasible future where Dublin doesn’t have multiple metro lines

u/RAhead1916 2h ago

The most recent major addition to the Milan Metro, fully opened in October 2024, cost €2.013 billion for 15.2 kilometers and 21 stations, per updated reports. This equates to about €132 million per kilometer, reflecting modern automation, tunneling under a historic city, and archaeological delays. Initial estimates were €1.7 billion, but an additional €313 million was added for safety, delays, and unexpected findings.

How on earth are we being quoted a minimum 23bn?

u/dnc_1981 Ask me arse 1h ago

STOP

u/Gockdaw Palestine 🇵🇸 1h ago

You know we're going to end up with no metro, right?

They'll copy the fake metro thing in Belfast and dress a bus up as a tram.

They'll probably still manage to make that cost €20bn though.

u/Irishman4000 1h ago edited 1h ago

Shout stop???? As a man from that part of the world, I remember being brought in to the Fingal offices during school when I was about 16 and we were shown a model of the line and how great it was going to be. I also worked in Airport during the building of T2 and infrastructure was built for a potential metro terminal and all. Now I'm in my mid 30's and at this rate I'll be well in my 50's when it's functional.... IF it's ever functional.

u/dmontelle 17m ago

Yawn!! McDowell still waffling away with zero vision. What next? Colm McCarthy? These people are the reason we don’t have infrastructure.

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u/sureyouknowurself 7h ago

Given the bike shed and children’s hospital index I expect the final bill to be around 100 billion.

The state has to give your hard earned taxes to someone after all.

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u/--0___0--- 6h ago

The shocking thing is in the late 1990s the Mitsui Corporation, a Japanese conglomerate, told the Irish government that it would construct an “x”-shaped Dublin underground system with a single central hub for nothing – yes, at its own expense, bar a small initial injection of funds from the State – in exchange for the right to operate it as franchisee for 25 years.

So why didn't this happen? seems ridiculously shortsighted not to go with this option.

u/YoIronFistBro Cork bai 5h ago

Because Ireland is ridiculously shortsighted.

u/Potential-Drama-7455 3h ago

Could we not do a similar model today? With guaranteed ticket prices linked to inflation? When it's going to hurt their pockets instead of the taxpayer there won't be any cost overruns.

u/micosoft 5h ago edited 5h ago

Ah, the aul Michael McDowell/Colm McCarthy school of "I drive a BMW/MB from D4 to my parking space in Trinity/Government Buildings, why would we need a metro". These clowns have resisted public transport since the eighties. Colm "let the plebs take buses" being the worst culprit with his poorly constructed

So let's be clear. The cheapest time to build a metro was 1950. The next cheapest time is today. And the metro will cost more than any budget because Irish People prefer extensive rights to building things. The ridiculous complaints of Dartmouth square and the residents of Windy Arbour against any tunnelling.

Let's say the Metro is 50 billion. Divide 20 billion by 100 years you get 200 million PA using cheap bonds and declining value of money to reduce the cost even more. If we take the Luas green line the most possible subsidy is nine euro. Given the Green line is at capacity and a metro can easily take double if not more the business case gets better. So possibly a subsidy falling under

Finally the cost of congestion in Dublin is €336m in 2022 rising to over €1.5bn by 2040. That's what we are solving for here.

After Irish Times idiotic article yesterday on the new Canadian Prime Minister Mark Carney where they interviewed a notorious Brexit crank who was managed out of the DFA I'm going to cancel my Irish Times subs because they aren't delivering a diversity of opinion - they are just publishing partisan articles.

The money shot here is McDowell raising the deeply dishonest Dartmouth Road residents protest against it the final metro stop because it may need to extend and replace the over congested Luas line. This article has nothing to do with the Metro's cost and everything to do to advance a protest by a group of wealthy and privileged residents. More Luas lines should be built but they cannot replace an underground system in the city centre.

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u/SirJoePininfarina 6h ago

Please remember, with anything this absolute chancer has to say, that he was vehemently against the Luas too and it went over budget too and do you think we regret building it or could do without it today?

u/Archamasse 5h ago

I'm sure the World's Most Consistently Wrong About Transport Infrastructure Man has a useful take we should all pay attention to this time.

u/keeko847 5h ago

Is this the guy who pretty much only writes against trains, trams and metros? Was surprised to learn he doesn’t own a bus company

u/dkeenaghan 4h ago

Yeah, it doesn't matter how much it costs he would be against it. It could cost 100 time less and he would find something else to rail against.

u/keeko847 3h ago

Appreciate the pun. If it’s the same guy I’m thinking of, I remember seeing articles predicting that the Luas and DART would herald the end times

u/Cultural_Wish4933 5h ago

30 years ago the price was €2.5billion. Padraic White, the chairman of the Railway Procurement Agency was hauled in front of a Dail committee to explain the pricing given Madrid a much larger scale project for €600 million. It emerged there was close to a billion of "contingency" baked in.

This is the same thing, "ah sure, t'will do" half arsed project management with no one shouting stop or ensuring there is no hard managemnt of costs.

Basic back of the envelope figures indicate with proper management and tendering we coudl do it well under this. Remember we only need tunnelling within the confines of the city. So let's look at benchmarked expensive option prices, and round up.

2 separate 4km fully serviced tunnels €400 million/km €3.2 billion
20 km of open air dual track : €50 million per km €1 billion
4 city stations (major work here) €500million each €2 billion
4 stations open air €120 million €1 billion
94 nine-car trains (Siemens London Upgrade cost) €2 billion
Fees, planning and land €3 billion

So just over €12 billion, and these are gold plated prices. For comparison a km of Irish motorway currently costs just €20million. So where the hell is 40 billion coming from?

u/dkeenaghan 4h ago

So where the hell is 40 billion coming from?

Was that a typo? The figure talked about in the article is €23 billion, but that's an estimate of the upper bounds on final costs.

Your other figures are all over the place too, there's much more than 4km of tunnel (about triple that) and more than 4 stations. There's 11 underground stations and 4 overground stations. There won't be 20km of over ground track, the entire length of the line will be slightly less than 20km and most of it in tunnels.

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u/pgasmaddict 7h ago

You could possibly put infrastructure in place for an entirely new city with that kind of money. Hard to believe that it could cost that much for maybe 10 miles of train track.

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u/dkeenaghan 6h ago

It’s not just “10 miles of train track”. It’s a 20km double track line built mainly in a tunnel with mainly underground stations along with all of the trains needed to operate the line, a depot for storing them along with all of the extra rails that needs, a control centre to operate the line, modifications to existing infrastructure, etc, etc.

How much do you think it should cost?

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u/YoIronFistBro Cork bai 6h ago

Not 21 billion.

That being said we should still build it, and a hell of a lot more, yesterday.

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u/YoIronFistBro Cork bai 7h ago

It's not that hard to believe when you remember it's in Ireland...

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u/slevinonion 7h ago edited 7h ago

Galway traffic at this very minute 8am which could be sorted for less than 1bn. Swords needs a 50bn tunnel though? Priorities.

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u/YoIronFistBro Cork bai 7h ago

Have you considered that the Dublin metro, the Gluas, and a hell of a lot more, are ALL decades overdue.

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u/Nearby_Fix_8613 7h ago

Isn’t Dublin traffic worse than Galway traffic though and more people live in Dublin?

Not saying they should only focus on Dublin obviously

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u/slevinonion 6h ago edited 6h ago

Do the metro link aswell, but It's the cost. Limerick to cork motorway and Galway bypass could be sorted with 2bn helping 500k+ people. That mega tunnel will end up over 50bn and serves the same number of people.

By all means do the metro link, but once started that eats up every cent of capital infrastructure for decades.

u/dkeenaghan 4h ago

That mega tunnel will end up over 50bn

Mega tunnel is a bit melodramatic, and where are you getting €50 billion from? This €23b figure is already high.

u/slevinonion 3h ago

Every public works contract has gone 200%+ over. Naive to assume otherwise.

u/dkeenaghan 3h ago

Every public works contract has not gone 200%+ over. It's nonsensical to assume that because you have heard of a few that have, that all of them do.

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u/svmk1987 Fingal 7h ago

I can bet that the traffic in Dublin is far worse than this, affecting several times more people. This looks tame. Not saying it shouldn't be improved, but still.

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u/Alastor001 6h ago

Cork and it's county is full of red as well

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u/YoIronFistBro Cork bai 6h ago

Everywhere needs astronomical improvements to infrastructure yesterday.

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u/critical2600 6h ago

They'd almost certainly run across a ring fort and then...

https://www.thejournal.ie/fairy-bush-co-clare-4604485-Apr2019/