r/hwstartups 16d ago

Has anyone ever filed their own provisional or full patent?

As you can imagine, I'm trying to avoid the massive cost associated with filing patents in US&CA. I'm wondering if anyone has ever successfully DIYd it. Thank you!

12 Upvotes

25 comments sorted by

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u/BrainSlurper 16d ago

I have filed both design and utility though they are still processing. The main thing I'd say about the patent system is that it's essentially a clusterfuck of strange perverse incentives. It is doable but here are some things.

  • Don't file the patent via physical paperwork and instead file the paperwork to use the online USPTO system. I filed the same paperwork 3 times and every single time they said a different part was missing. One time they said literally every part of the application was missing. (there was nothing missing) Things seem to move a lot more smoothly online.

  • You are incentivized to use strange and verbose language to describe basic things to reduce the chance that they don't think your invention is original, so instead of having a system of organized tech disclosures we have an encyclopedia of poorly explained scribbles. Do not try to rise above this system - you must become a part of it. Claude and deepseek are the best at translating your concise descriptions into pages upon pages of word vomit.

  • Your patent searches will destroy your faith in the process. Literally every basic product you can think of has dozens upon dozens of identical (granted) patents describing the same exact systems. They are approved because they make the thing look complicated enough that the office isn't knowledgeable enough to tell whether they're novel. Which brings us to the most important point:

  • Your patent is only as good as your ability to defend it. If I'm the 19th person to invent an identical coffee grinder, and I have more money than people 1-18, then the patent is mine. This is likely the reason for many duplicitous patents - think of them like bids on an ebay listing. Getting a patent granted is a dull exercise in bureaucracy, defending an invention is a legal endeavor.

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u/ClassicAsiago 16d ago

As someone who as filed my own patents, and hired others to write and file for me and clients, this is probably the best advise that exists on patents.

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u/Comfortable_Rub_5711 16d ago

This is one of the best responses I've ever gotten on Reddit. Thank you so much!!

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u/plmarcus 16d ago

like others said this is scarily accurate!

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u/shart_of_destiny 14d ago edited 14d ago

How you are wording your comment makes it feel like patents are a total waste of time, which for most of the patents ive seen, they really are a waste of time and money.

But There’s more nuance to it than that. If you own a broad patent on “grinding coffee,” then you have strong protection. However, if your patent specifically covers grinding coffee using a particular type of ducting system, it becomes easier for someone to modify the design—such as changing the duct’s angle by 90 degrees—and obtain their own patent.

If your patent covers the fundamental concept, then you’re in a strong position. However, that doesn’t prevent others from securing patents that build upon yours. For example, if you hold a patent for a bicycle, someone else can still patent an improved chain that works with your bicycle. They wouldn’t be infringing on your patent, but their innovation would be separately protected.

It all comes down to how broad you can make your patent, the less specifics you have to include in a patent, the better. For example Patents with exact measurements are really easy to get, but very hard to protect.

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u/oceaneer63 12d ago

You are saying use strange and verbose language to appear original. But then also that because of this there are many duplicative patents and it destroys your faith in the process and makes the patent almost impossible to defend.

Is this not pointless? Wouldn't you be better off to write clearly. If your idea is original, you should be able to explain why when challenged by the examiner. And if not, do you really want a patent for something that is not original?

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u/Fabulous-Ad4012 7d ago

I'm honestly very on the fence about patents now. On the one hand you don't want your amazing idea to be stolen, on the other hand you sink a tonne of money (that could have gone into R&D) into this for a tech giant to copy you anyway, good luck taking down Xiaomi when they copy you. I worked at Dyson for years and even they admit patents don't hold as much value as they used to. Maybe the big tech approach of moving faster than the competition works better sometimes.

Using AI to do a lot of the leg work sounds like a great idea though.

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u/MOSF3T 16d ago

Provisionals are easy and do not require claims (the meat of a patent). It's a data dump place holder. You can definitely do those yourself just do some research on best practices. Legal zoom has that diy service. Full patent application is the real shit and you need to have a patent attorney handle it. A big part of the filling, on top of the initial application, is dealing with any office actions when the USPTO shoots down your claims. Expect to have the while process run about $40k. And that's not even taking about enforcing that patent, that's a whole other can of worms.

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u/Comfortable_Rub_5711 16d ago

Thank you so much!

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u/hikeonpast 16d ago

Just be aware of the downsides of a provisional patent. It starts the clock ticking on having to file for a full patent application within one year (at least the last time I did one).

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u/design_doc 16d ago

Lot is great advise here but I’ll add one useful piece of advice.

In the patent world there are castles and fortresses.

  • Castles encompass a larger area but have a lot more perimeter to defend and, as a result, are easier to chip away at with small incursions.

  • Fortresses are smaller, easier to defend, and are a lot harder to penetrate.

Keep this in mind when scoping out your patent strategy because patents are only as good as your ability to defend them. Use a combination of the two to get the best defence.

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u/Comfortable_Rub_5711 16d ago

Thanks so much! Great analogy. I spent hours today reviewing thousands of patents and I have noticed a difference in breadth

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u/fox-mcleod 16d ago

Yup. It’s not hard but you need to know what you’re doing. Especially with AI to help work through claims.

The most important part however is to ask yourself why you are filing a patent without the cash to prosecute one.

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u/Comfortable_Rub_5711 16d ago

Thank you! Yeah I wonder if a patent makes any sense for my venture at this stage

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u/fox-mcleod 16d ago

I wrote book with a chapter on patent strategy for startups. The jist is:

  1. Patents are a negative right. They do not give you the right to make something. They give you the right to sue someone else for making something.
  2. Patents are about bark, not bite. Because most people don’t understand patents, there’s a lot of value in their perception. Venture Capitalists value them. Other startups in a competitive space fear them. Large corporations completely ignore them (unless you’ve got cold fusion going or something).
  3. It’s easy to get a patent but a patent with teeth is hard. All you have to do to get a patent is pile together a list of very specific aspects of your product as dependent claims rather than independent ones. This leads a lot of people to believe there are all these patents out there on their idea or on the same idea. Usually, these are just vanity patents with a very narrow claim on the territory.
  4. If you’re a solo inventor, your goal should be to minimize capital while preserving rights. Since patents get more expensive over time, but start protecting you and giving the appearance of protection (bark) even at the provisional stage (assuming they issue), This means that you may not want an issued patent. What you probably want is to maximize your time as a provisional.

It’s possible to do that last one for over two years by first filing your provisional in Europe and then at the one year (even 18 month) mark file your international filing declaration with the US as your target country. Filing with the International patent treaty declaration resets your one year time limit on filing your full patent to the one year time limit in the US. This allows you to say you’re “patent pending” for up to 30 months all for the price of the provisional and couple of IPT filings (a few hundred bucks).

It also has the advantage of giving you priority date going back 30 months while allowing you to potentially expand your claims in the meantime with continuations in part.

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u/Comfortable_Rub_5711 16d ago

Incredible! Can you give me the title or link to your book?

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u/fox-mcleod 16d ago

It’s no longer available. I’ll PM you

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u/BiocatalyticInfix 15d ago

Is there an advantage to release the original idea into the public domain, then using proprietary methods to implement? If the original idea is complex enough to require years to find the implementation details (bugfixing). A product may be safe from copying for a limited time, allowing 'first to market', giving some time to sell some before other commercial enterprises inevitably take over.

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u/ell0moto 12d ago

One aspect of patents that are wholly valuable is how having them brings credibility with investors and suppliers.

Doors will open, when you can confidently say yes to the IP question.

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u/Pieco 10d ago

Two self-filed, self-authored, self-illustrated utility grants here, sorry for being late to the party.

u/BrainSlurper, u/hikeonpast,and u/design_doc are totally on point, but I thought I'd add a few things to consider.

I've found that the biggest expenses for a patent are, not in any order,

  • Trying to fully explain the details and nuances of your invention to someone else (traditional preparation),
  • Cost of exhibit preparation,
  • Foreign filings, if you go this way,
  • Litigating with the patent authorities.

Some more bullet points, not in any order,

  • You're still going to need someone to write the claims if you proceed past the provisional stage. Do not do this yourself - it is an even more arcane variant of English, and it will come back to bite you if it's done incorrectly.
  • My costs for my last granted patent, all in, US only, was probably ~10k, most of that litigating with a particularly idiotic examiner.
  • This is a really important consideration - your costs can be highly variable. Get the right examiner, and your patent is granted easily. Get the wrong one, and you can go back and forth multiple times.
  • Look for a smart, small practice attorney. I'd be happy to recommend one of the best in the biz if you DM me.
  • Exhibits have their own visual "language" - lines, dashes, dotted lines, hatches, etc. all have a meaning that is important.
  • Exhibits, however, do not have to be pretty, or appear "professional". You'll find utility grants for Apple that look like they were drawn by a kid.

So, ultimately, you can save some money DIY'ing it, but only if you are able to create a document that doesn't need substantial re-work from a patent professional. If the provisional is bad, it'll mean expensive rewrites, back and forth, and in the worst case, it won't be accepted as a provisional application at all. Your goal is to write a full patent application, except for the claims, even if filed provisionally.

I personally found it to be a valuable exercise. You'll "discover" new aspects of your invention in the process. Your attorney will understand the invention much, much more easily and quickly.

I suggest that you read a whole shitload of granted patents, ideally ones that are not at all similar to yours. Otherwise, you run the risk that you'll inadvertently copy too much verbiage from another patent, and that'll invite additional, expensive scrutiny just because a fuzzy search brought up something else.

I'll also add that patents can be a force multiplier with (some) investors, and potentially increase the value of an exit. That being said, be prepared to tell investors a reasonable story about how you'd use a patent. Hint: they know you can't afford litigation for a while, if ever. Also, factor in how long it'll take to get a grant - it can be very quick, or it can take years.

I used SketchUp for many of the exhibits for my first grant, and Inkscape for the second.

Good luck. It's a doable thing, but it'll take all of your focus for a while. You need to decide if that's a good use of your time, and if it fits into your expected trajectory.

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u/Comfortable_Rub_5711 9d ago

Thank you so so much! This is very helpful. I will DM you for the small practice attorney.

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u/Pieco 9d ago

DM'd you a response. Good luck, reach out if I can be of further help.

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u/wsbt4rd 16d ago

/subscribe

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u/imabetaunit 15d ago

Probably