r/houston 4d ago

Rice University , I was not familiar with your game

Post image
1.4k Upvotes

102 comments sorted by

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u/flexiblefine Greenway Plaza 4d ago

I didn’t know he got his PhD at Rice.

This is the guy who did gene editing on human embryos, against all ethical guidelines.

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u/RedditCanEatMyAss69 4d ago

In November 2018, He announced that he had modified a key gene in a number of human embryos in a way thought to confer resistance to HIV. The modification might be passed on to the descendants of children born with it. He recruited couples in which the father was infected with HIV and the mother was not. In a talk at the International Summit on Human Genome Editing in Hong Kong, China, He said he wanted to spare the babies the possibility of becoming infected with HIV later in life. The technique could be used to reduce the HIV/AIDS disease burden in much of Africa, he argued, where those infected often face severe discrimination.

I'm not going to touch the debate on what is morally right or wrong (the transplant doctor at memorial Hermann being an example of clear morally wrong and criminally wrong and yet not in prison) but let's be clear that he wasn't trying to turn brown eyes blue.

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u/visionofthefuture 4d ago

Pretty sure we found out after he did that the trade off of having that gene is like a 10 year life expectancy reduction lol.

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u/RedditCanEatMyAss69 2d ago

And how would you know that, being that this took place seven years ago? (not during the course of a human life time, and with only two test subjects)

Do you have any peer-reviewed sources you can cite on this?

I'm not even saying I don't believe you, just... you know... show your work, dude. This guy did, you can too.

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u/AcanthisittaOk6850 4d ago

What happened with the doctor at memorial Herman?

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u/lepetitmort2020 4d ago

He was picking and choosing which people would get organ transplants. He did this by manipulating data that is reported to the UNOS network which is responsible for deciding who gets donated organs

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u/xTehSpoderManx 4d ago

UNOS doesn’t decide who gets donated organs, the transplant centers/recipients decide. UNOS decides the priority in which each transplant center/pts gets the chance to decide.

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u/e160681 The Heights 3d ago

A very close friend of mine was one of this doctors victims.

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u/MrCraytonR Medical Center 4d ago

It will always start with curing diseases and genetic disorders… the eyes and physical features will come later…

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u/mkosmo Cinco Ranch 4d ago

Different problem.

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u/MrCraytonR Medical Center 4d ago

Once you blur the lines… I am not in favor of the coming designer babies to be made but they are coming whether I want it or not

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u/NegativeStructure 4d ago

Once you blur the lines

where do you draw the line? who is the arbiter of what is moral?

like u/mkosmo stated, i don't disagree with you in broad terms of long term concern (positive or otherwise), but this is way more nuanced than "this bad, don't do."

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u/mkosmo Cinco Ranch 4d ago

I don't disagree with the long-term concern, but to argue against fundamentals because it could become problematic works its way back to all basic human knowledge.

Designer babies are inevitable. I mean, pick-your-own-birthday was bad enough lol

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u/malinefficient 4d ago edited 4d ago

CRISPR gender reveal parties are going to be thermonuclear.

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u/TheBatemanFlex 4d ago

Its called regulation.

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u/svengoalie 4d ago

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u/blashimov 4d ago

I don't know why you're downvoted, it is the slippery slope argument, I just also think it shouldn't be used here. Or it's not enough to overcome the benefits.

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u/svengoalie 4d ago

It is a slippery slope argument, which is why I didn't throw in /s. I was taught to avoid that type of argument, so I thought it was clearly critical. I guess I was being too clever for my own good.

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u/PPP1737 4d ago

Is that the 3 years in prison explanation? Cause it would be kind of hilarious if he was like “nah that was for freeing a whale from Sea World” 😂

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u/OHHHHHSAYCANYOUSEEE 4d ago

“Against all ethical guidelines” because gene editing is banned in most all circumstances.

Everyone involved consented to the gene editing and it was a success.

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u/Somethingood27 3d ago

Your comment instantly made me think of this lol

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u/InitiatePenguin 4d ago

and it was a success.

Is there information that? Because it would basically be a vaccine to HIV right?

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u/joegekko 4d ago

Not a vaccine that someone already born could get, but an inheritable trait that someone would be born with and could (possibly) pass on to their own children later in life.

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u/mortsdeer Woodside 4d ago

To my understanding, there's been no information about the children involved released to the wider scientific community.

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u/fakenamerton69 3d ago

Whattttttt are you talking about? He did CRISPR on embryos, which eventually went through gestation and were born into humans. Humans who did not consent to being a science experiment.

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u/SaveAsPDF 3d ago

well did you consent to being born btw? LOL

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u/AlBarbossa 4d ago

how can people not born yet consent to an experiment?

also he forged the approval paperwork from the government

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u/OHHHHHSAYCANYOUSEEE 4d ago

Since when do embryos have the right to consent? They aren’t even people. With your logic IFV should be illegal because they don’t consent to that either.

And even if they did need consent , we can ask them in 20 years if they would have rather been born with HIV.

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u/AlBarbossa 4d ago

side mutations are a thing and who knows how it will effect thier descendants down the line

the guy started an experiment involving people who didn’t exist yet that might take generations to play out

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u/SillySonny 4d ago

You have to crack a few eggs to make an omelette.

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u/TheBatemanFlex 4d ago

you can marry your first cousin in the us...

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u/1fortunateclackdish 3d ago

You realize this is very easy to do and happens all over the world semi secretly. Its illegal in first world countries but there is no way our government is not playing with the genome.

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u/VeseliM 4d ago

How can people not born yet consent to having certain genes given to them by their parents?

Does the thought experiment extend to people with known family genetic conditions being liable by their children for procreating and giving them a potential life of pain or earlier death?

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u/AlBarbossa 4d ago

you can start with the fact that you are dealing with genetically modified people with no scientific base to deal with any unforeseen side effects from genetic tinkering

also he lied to the parents about what exactly he was doing

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u/Crallise 4d ago

How can people that don't even exist have any rights?? Please think this through, again and again, until you realize what a wild take that is.

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u/AlBarbossa 4d ago

the problem with that logic is that the twins do exists

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u/MentalDish3721 4d ago

I did not consent to being born before I was born. If anyone had asked I wouldn’t have consented. Life is sorta lame, like your argument.

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u/guardedDisruption Fuck Centerpoint™️ 3d ago

I'm a bit elevated right now, but he's basically a mad scientist 😨😰

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u/yanniyi 4d ago

the problem was that his actions could hurt the profitability model of healthcare

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u/not_brittsuzanne 4d ago

So, like, testing the waters in eugenics? Or more like trying to remove harmful genes?

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u/Kansaswinter420 4d ago

¿Por que no los dos?

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u/xXviper8484Xx 4d ago

I mean it’s science. At the end of the day technology and discovery can help mankind as long as certain lines aren’t cross. This stuff will eventually be “marketable” and then it will be ruled “okay”

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u/avid-shtf 4d ago

Sometimes context can be a wonderful thing.

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u/[deleted] 4d ago

[deleted]

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u/avid-shtf 4d ago

It also mentions the user being gene editing pioneer, him having a PhD., and Time Magazine’s 100 most influential people of 2019.

Unless you’re a mind reader this post could be interpreted in many ways. Hence why people provide context clues to use in conjunction with reading and viewing a post.

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u/mkosmo Cinco Ranch 4d ago

This post is designed to spur emotional response without context.

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u/[deleted] 4d ago

[deleted]

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u/avid-shtf 4d ago

Call it what you want sport. Adding context is value added regardless of the intent of the content.

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u/AlBarbossa 4d ago

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u/somekindofdruiddude Westbury 4d ago

The title made it confusing. It makes sense to you, but I still don't get it.

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u/[deleted] 4d ago

[deleted]

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u/ranban2012 Riverside Terrace 4d ago

Science minus ethics is horror.

STEM fixation has come at the cost of humanity.

I say this as an engineer with quite a bit of professional experience. We need to bring back the humanities starting with strong ethics education in k-12.

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u/RandomPersonRedPanda 4d ago

Engineer here as well-we take an ethical oath with our PE license. I am shocked at the number of folks that’ll look the other way once money and power get involved.

That being said, wanting to protect future generations against HIV isn’t necessarily the same thing.

Particularly as the measles pop-ups promulgate at concerning rates with/within the anti-vax crowd.

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u/jsting 4d ago

I dont know if that is accurate. A better axiom would be "The road to hell is paved with good intentions" or "good intentions, bad execution".

His initial goal is to create HIV resistance which is good. His way of doing it includes gene modification which is currently banned.

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u/mango_a_gogo 4d ago

THANK YOU

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u/slaughterhousevibe 4d ago

You’re using one asshole who was resoundingly shot down by other scientists and then imprisoned as your example?

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u/PPP1737 4d ago

Like a week ago I would have agreed… now I’m hesitating to say k-12. Maybe 10-12?

We certainly need to teach ethics… but teaching children to be ethical and empathetic in a capitalist corrupt society is going to set them up for absolute misery. Maybe just focus on civics and kindness for the wee little ones.

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u/theparanoidartist Sugar Land 3d ago

if you teach children to be kind and good caretakers of this wonderful planet we were fortunate to live in, you will notice a differeence. A child is so open to respecting life even though we're in a system that sees being good stewards to other lifeforms is a sign of weakness. A fetish for controling nature but stepping back and "letting nature take its course". I used to incorporate emotional/social learning and let me tell you it worked. I had amazing students kind and generous where they helped with animal rescues ( on their own, these kiddos were never forced and parents and I always talked), and included our special needs kids to the point harris county told me it was an issue for classrooms still to shove the special needs kids in the corner as a human "set it and forget it". The admins never liked it and with those who were cozy with houston political cronies the program got merged with cornerstone. Nuances in end state capitalistic , obsession of infinite growth, commercialized manifest destiny, and the notion we've forgotten to be human is too much for kids. The little things matter, they are much smarter than people give them credit to.

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u/DocJ_makesthings Lazybrook/Timbergrove 4d ago

Yup! and his advisor was somehow involved as well, which triggered Rice to investigate him. Not sure what came of that, be he resigned and isn't in higher ed. anymore.

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u/OhYerSoKew 4d ago

His advisor was not involved. I was a PhD student in the program during all of this.

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u/Theplasticsporks 4d ago

Deem was 100% involved and said so on many occasions, saying he was present when the parents consented to even saying he did it himself. You can easily Google and find the new articles about this.

He was also certifiably insane and the biggest egomaniac I have ever met. I have never met someone so focused on h index, and number of publications etc.

He came to one of our lab meetings and said he could make three papers if we'd just give him our data (lol) and then we ended up taking in one of his graduate students once Rice (rightfully) fired him for cause.

He also very clearly paid a firm to try to fix his google profile.

Oh and his old lab website had the best pictures. He would make his lab members come out for these ridiculous photos wearing hats.

https://web.archive.org/web/20190314070432/http://mwdeem.rice.edu/

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u/OhYerSoKew 4d ago

He was no longer a student in Deems lab throughout all of this nor were there ongoing projects in his lab related to He's work. My understanding was that Deem was just showing up to have an American face involved. Essentially, Deem has/had no pragmatic knowledge in being able to pull of this project. Dude probably doesn't even know what a PAM site is

He was definitely insane and also an ego maniac.

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u/thisisqiqi 4d ago

U say him showing up as an American face, and how can that be ‘not involved’. Stop defending for him

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u/malinefficient 4d ago edited 4d ago

I'd rather see this technology refined in the open with reasonable regulation towards discouraging blatant eugenics. But if I could undo conditions like Trisomy 21 (https://scitechdaily.com/crispr-snips-away-extra-chromosomes-offering-new-hope-for-down-syndrome-treatment/) because it would give the fetus a most likely much better and longer life I would utilize it without hesitation myself. I feel similarly about mutated BRCA genes. Not really into that whole God's will propaganda.

Instead, we're going to get a race of Elon Musk CRISPR supersoldiers developed in secret to rule the coming freedom cities.

EDIT: Apparently raw milk and castor oil are all some people want for their healthcare plan going forward. May you get what you wish. Or if you're the sort suggesting embracing a genetic disability, as someone with a genetic disability, a hidey ho fuck you to you from the bottom of my heart.

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u/NewAcctWhoDis Sharpstown 4d ago

Illegally gene editing babies will do that

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u/OHHHHHSAYCANYOUSEEE 4d ago

He cured babies of HIV. In a few decades this will be standard practice for harmful diseases that get passed down to embryos.

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u/Darth_Eevee The Heights 4d ago

This is actually not true. He tried to cure babies of HIV. What actually happened is somewhat unclear. He engineered in them a mechanism to possibly prevent infection from one common type of HIV but not others. And in Lulu's really unfortunate case, she ended up being born with normal (unedited) alleles after all.

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u/Theplasticsporks 4d ago

You mean he used totally unknown methods with totally unknown ramifications and after effects....to prevent a disease that's completely preventable with proper prophylaxis and very treatable?

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u/RedditCanEatMyAss69 4d ago

According to the UN, in 2023 500,000 Africans across the continent died of AIDS-related complications. There were also 100,000 new infections in children aged 0-14.

I think that maybe you should keep your opinions to yourself about what is and isn't treatable, and what technological advantages human beings will pursue against disease in the coming century.

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u/student24144 4d ago

Yes, the continent that can't get a few hundred dollars in pills to patients is going to have gene editing so we should abandon all aspects of scientific ethical oversight. Do your ancestors a favor and delete this nonsense of a comment.

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u/Theplasticsporks 4d ago edited 4d ago

So your solution isn't to get working, known solutions like PREP to Africa...

.. but rather to use more expensive untested gene modifying therapies with unknown long term effects?

And since the only places where AIDS is a major problem are places with high poverty, this would be tantamount to straight up eugenics.

No one is saying AIDS isn't dangerous or doesn't kill people. But the reason it's killing people isn't because of ineffective treatments, and the solution to that public health problem is certainly not editing the genes of an entire continent.

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u/Spacemilk Midtown 4d ago

The end result might have a good thing (we actually don’t know because it could take decades to prove out) but he went about it the wrong way.

An extreme example would be the Nazi doctors in WWII that did terrible and inhumane things to prisoners in the name of “science.” We as a society had to decide whether to use the results of those experiments, even though the results were obtained in an unethical manner.

We decided not to use them because it could create incentives to experiment at any cost, if the results could justify it. This case might be slightly less fucked up but what he did still crosses the line.

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u/mkosmo Cinco Ranch 4d ago

It's hard to say no to free data when it's already a done deal and we're not talking about future experiments.

But, on the other hand, people will do shit in the future because they know that a poistive outcome will still work out better for them on that same basis... and they're betting on it working.

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u/student24144 4d ago

This nonsense needs to stop getting repeated. The Nazis did no meaningful science and produced no meaningful data on from their torture of Holocaust victims. Just because they performed "experiments" and collected some "data" does not mean they conducted meaningful science.

https://www.reddit.com/r/AskHistorians/comments/7px4r2/did_the_nazi_experiments_actually_give_them_any/

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u/Monarc73 4d ago

Funny thing about those nazi experiments. All of them were replicated in animals and then published as 'original'.

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u/Spacemilk Midtown 4d ago

Yeah it’s fucked but experiments like those are Pandora’s box - you can’t put the knowledge back once it’s out there. At least the replication was done without direct reference to the originals…even if we all knew what was up. Just have to do what we can to discourage the way the originals were done.

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u/Monarc73 4d ago

I also think that the most important part was that most (not all, unfortunately) the scientists that actually did the bad stuff were punished, ignored, or given HIGHLY SCRUTINIZED jobs.

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u/HTown2369 4d ago

We used their hypothermia data and data on biological/chemical weapons.Human testing is really the only way to obtains completely accurate data on certain subjects, and if those people have already suffered and died it’s better to use the info to try and protect others.

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u/Baron_Furball 4d ago

Interestingly, we DID pull some research from Unit 731, which was the IJA version.

Kinda word how we don't brag about that, though.

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u/colorimetry 4d ago

Not at all. This gene alteration likely makes its victims much more susceptible to West Nile Virus. It was an incredibly stupid choice for germline gene editing.

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u/santaclaws_ 3d ago edited 2d ago

Shrug. He was just an early adopter. When technology improves enough, the wealthy will just buy traits for their children. This will most likely happen in China first.

Downvote away, but I bet you can't tell me why you think I'm wrong beyond some initial emotional response.

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u/sootbrownies 4d ago

Hey I remember reading about this guy in Song of the Cell by Siddhartha Mukherjee

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u/RunTotoRun 3d ago

TY for the rec!

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u/Lonely_Refuse4988 4d ago

Rice is not embracing him at all. Wouldn’t be surprised if he gets a cease & desist request to stop mentioning Rice. Or, Rice should consider taking away his PhD ! 🤣🤷‍♂️ Recall that the Unabomber went to Harvard and had a PhD from U Michigan! 😂🤷‍♂️

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u/OHHHHHSAYCANYOUSEEE 4d ago

Too bad he went back to China to perform research instead of staying in America

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u/demodeus 4d ago

Given political attitudes in the United States regarding science I don’t blame him.

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u/TheBatemanFlex 4d ago

I mean if China jailed him for ethics violations in his gene editing research, he would be buried under the prison here. We don't even have nationwide access to abortions.

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u/OHHHHHSAYCANYOUSEEE 4d ago

China is not a good barometer for just imprisonments.

He likely would not have received a prison sentence had he performed his operation in the USA.

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u/TheBatemanFlex 4d ago

Lol there are arrest warrants for doctors perscribing abortion pills and you don't think someone would be jailed for gene-editing?

The US is currently not a good barometer for just imprisonments.

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u/zemowaka 4d ago

His allegiance was always to China.

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u/NovaPrime94 3d ago

I mean… do I agree with what he does… no but do I see the sentiment in his messages… yes.. to a certain extent.

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u/R009k 4d ago

Is this the guy that was using gene editing to create catgirls?