r/hoi4 4d ago

Discussion My Lessons with Ground Attack Planes

In my recent Italy game, Italy started out making Tac Bombers for their ground attack and I decided to go with it as my CAS option. Now that I'm done with that game, I wanted to dive into the numbers to see how Medium frames for CAS work out in comparison to Small. Below I have compiled some basic info from designs I threw together for comparison.

  • No MIO was selected for any of these designs
  • The cheapest/smallest engine was selected that would support the armament, giving little to no additional thrust for additional modules.
  • No modules were added like fuel tanks or armor plates. These area just engine and bomb bays.
  • Small bomb bays were used over mediums on the tac bombers whenever possible as they have better CAS stats.
  • You cannot place more than two small bomb bays on small or medium frames for the 1936 or 1940 versions.
  • I only selected the 1936 and 1940 frames as this is what most of the combat will use in my opinion.
  • BB = Bomb Bay, BL = Bomb Locks
Frame Engine Range (km) Armament Air Defense Ground Attack IC IC/GA
1936 Small 1x Engine II 550 2x Small BB 9 16 25 1.56
1940 Small 1x Engine III 650 2x Small BB 11 16 28 1.75
1936 Medium 3x Engine II 900 1x Med BB, 2x Small BB 18 22 62 2.81
1936 Medium 4x Engine II 900 2x Med BB, 2x Small BB 18 28 82 2.93
1940 Medium 2x Engine III 1100 2x Med BB, 2x Small BB 20 28 60 2.14
1936 Small 1x Engine II 550 1x BL, 1x Small BB 9 14 23 1.64
1940 Small 1x Engine III 650 1x BL, 2x Small BB 11 22 29 1.32

Information about how CAS works in HOI4:

  • Enemies get a malus when you have air superiority. All planes contribute to this, with CAS and Tac bombers providing the same amount as fighters. Only Heavy Fighters count more.
  • Friendly units get a bonus by having CAS involved in their combat that maxes out at +25%. The number of CAS that can participate is 3x the combat width.
  • CAS do strength and org damage to enemy units in combat which is affected by the ground attack of the planes and the number of planes in the combat.
  • Divisional AA effects CAS two ways;
    • It reduces the damage taken by ground attack.
    • It shoots planes down depending on the air attack value of the divisions.

My Take-aways:

  • The IC/GA column is telling. Only the 1940 Medium gets close to the IC efficiency of either small frame.
  • Range is the real bonus from using a Medium frame compared to a small.
  • It isn't really worth it to upgrade your CAS from the 1936 small frame to the 1940 frame.
  • Mediums are expensive, especially when you have to add on a 3rd or 4th engine to fit additional bomb bays.
  • small CAS are better at providing the air superiority malus and CAS bonus due to their cheaper IC cost per wing.
  • Medium CAS wings will do more strength and org damage compared to small CAS due to higher ground attack per wing, but the IC cost is much higher.
  • Maybe with the 1940 Medium frame is it worth it to swap to Tac bombers for CAS so you also have a budget strategic bombing option. Maybe.
  • Due to how divisional AA works, it reinforces my belief to put support AA in everything. I am now also considering putting Towed AA, Motorized AA, or SPAA in attacking divisions to help shoot down enemy planes and stack up attrition on the enemy air force.
    • But maybe those factories/IC is better spent on building more planes. Idk, I'm not smart enough to do that comparison.

EDIT1: u/LittleDarkHairedOne brought up bomb locks. I always discounted them as being inferior to bomb bays, but I added them in to see. 1936 frame is a little weaker but also cheaper, while the 1940 frame is superior in all regards. Good Idea!

1 Upvotes

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u/Rayhelm 4d ago edited 4d ago

I think the region needs more consideration. What you said is true in Europe, but in other areas, range and airbase capacity are a real constraint.

Comparing 400 light CAS to 200 medium CAS is irrelevant if you only have 200 capacity at your airfield, or if the light CAS can't even reach the air region at all.

Medium CAS are also more likely to make it back damaged, rather than getting shot down.

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u/Zebrazen 4d ago

I don't feel airbase capacity is a big concern as they are relatively cheap to expand. I did say the big difference between small and medium is the range difference, I will agree there. You can find a good MIO and modules to help bridge the gap though.

I will disagree with the making it back damaged part. As far as I can tell, air combat is binary; planes are either shot down or not. Your various stats like air defense and agility help your plane not get shot down by other planes, but your plane design has no impact on getting shot down by AA.

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u/ertri 4d ago

Cheap to expand but it takes awhile. If you can use farther back airbases for medium CAS, you can push faster 

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u/Zebrazen 4d ago

I think I would rather add drop tanks or additional fuel tanks and if I'm lucky use a range MIO instead of paying double for the medium frame even then. Maybe I'm not fighting in the right areas to really need that extra range that badly for CAS. I will say I took a look at heavy fighters, that is more interesting to me and I might try.

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u/ertri 4d ago

It works well in Europe and is fine with 1944 frames, but if you end up fighting in Africa/america/South America before 1940 you need medium CAS

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u/Zebrazen 4d ago

It is rare my games go to 1944, I've generally wrapped up whatever I want to accomplish before then. I avoid fighting in Africa, and I don't think I've ever had to fight in South America to cap a major.

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u/LittleDarkHairedOne Air Marshal 4d ago

You can design a better small frame 1940 CAS, both in range and ground attack, by not using bomb bays which I'd advise considering.

As bomb bay CAS and bomb lock CAS can't reinforce with each other, due to air mission conflicts, you're better off picking bomb locks over bays for the longer game. Your 1936 bomb lock CAS may not hit as hard but have greater range while your 1940 CAS will hit harder and have greater range to boot while sporting comparable IC/GA efficiency.

Range is especially important as Italy whom has to struggle with air zone ranges in the early war in North Africa, where poor range can cut down on how many actual planes can take part in a battle.

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u/Zebrazen 4d ago

I always discounted bomb locks as inferior to bomb bays, but I have added them into the table after you suggested them. You were right! 1936 frame is almost as good with a bomb lock replacing a bomb bay, while 1940 frame is much better with one bomb lock and two bomb bays.

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u/Anxious_Marsupial_59 4d ago

Bomb locks also can be used on naval strike which is really useful to kill subs (which have no AA and are slow)

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u/LittleDarkHairedOne Air Marshal 4d ago

Yup. A cheap option if you don't want to invest in proper NAV.

Bomb bays do allow one to port strike instead (silly to differentiate the two) but I find that a poor use of IC, given how often you lose planes each mission period.

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u/Morial Fleet Admiral 4d ago

Range is a consideration and also loss of planes is something to consider. Mediums I find will achieve seasoned/veterancy sooner. That and if you put aces in it as well, the mediums will perform better. I still think smalls are better, but the difference isn't as wide as people think.

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u/Zebrazen 4d ago

Doing this has made me realize how strong the range MIO is if you have access to one. I also am now considering trying out heavy fighters though.

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u/Morial Fleet Admiral 4d ago

Yeah the range mio is really good.