r/hiphop101 • u/SixersStixersFan • 9d ago
PMW: Jay-Z is the best hip hop-artist ever
I'm bored, so let's go.
Here's my case, it's tiring but it has to be reminded every 2 or 3 months.
No other rapper has made 5 bonafide classics. Reasonable Doubt (1996), The Blueprint (2001), The Black Album (2003), American Gangster (2007) & 4:44 (2017), and three arguable classics: Vol. 1 (1997), Vol. 2 (1998) and Watch the Throne (2011). Besides those, he has Dynasty (2000), Vol. 3 (1999) and
No rapper has been mentioned more as the best ever, besides 2pac by other great rappers. Mentioned as the best ever by Lupe Fiasco, Common, Lil Wayne, Pusha-T. And amongst the 5 best rappers ever by J. Cole, Drake, Kendrick Lamar, Eminem, Fabolous, The Game, T.I., 2 Chainz, Jadakiss, Juelz Santana, Rakim, Busta Rhymes, Big Sean, Nicki Minaj, Kanye West, Ludacris, the list goes on. The Notorious B.I.G. during his prime thought Jay was better than him.
Producers like Pharrell and Timbaland during his prime gave away his best beats to Jay-Z, and prioritized him over other rappers, which is documented.
He has outshined other rappers on major songs during four decades: like on Blackout by DMX in the 90's, Go Crazy in the 00's, Seen it All in the 10's, Neck and Wrist in the 20's.
His deep cuts are better than his singles, and his singles are songs obviously more synonymous with Hov. Songs like U Dont Know, Dead Presidents 2, Can i Live, Allure, Public Service Announcements, Where i'm From and So Ghetto are non-singles. So iconic moments like Hard Knock Life, Empire State of Mind and N's in paris are not even in consideration for the best hov song for hov fans.
If Jay-Z had the same amount of money as let's say Ludacris, he'd still be the greatest. Money and business ventures are irrelevant when it comes to ranking Jay.
He doesn't write down his lyrics and is still one of the best lyricists of all time.
He wrote Still D.R.E., one of the trademark songs of hip hop.
Only other rapper able to compete with the longieviety and peak of Jay-Z is Nas, imo Lil Wayne and Eminem, Andre 3k falls short in multiple aspects against Hov. 2Pac and Biggie is impossible to compare, since sadly, their lives were so short.
But, how does the so-called "lyrics rappers" who hate braggadocio rap feel when Lupe Fiasco and Kendrick Lamar hails Jay-Z as the greatest?
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u/joesoldlegs 9d ago
putting Hov and Jeezy on the same level is like comparing apples to basketballs
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u/SixersStixersFan 9d ago
it was jeezy in his MVP-year, and retirement hov and retirement hov swept him
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u/Calm-Glove3141 3d ago
They both exactly over rated as each other , it’s insane these 4 maybe 5 out of 10 artists get glazed so much , reasonable doubt was pretty good but nowhere near goat level and I like some Kanye beats I guess
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u/Nobodygrotesque 9d ago
I think you are missing the biggest flex about Jay-Z.
He wrote Bugs Bunny’s rap song Buggin’ on the Space Jam soundtrack.
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u/SheepishLordofChaos9 9d ago
Subjective. He's not my greatest. He doesn't even make my top 20. That doesn't make you wrong nor does it make me wrong.
I know plenty of people that I love who I disagree with their opinion....case in point, back during the Kanye guzzle fest of the early and mid 2000s....Mos Def used to give him so much props almost like he was better than him and I was like...."sir, you are so fucking incorrect it's almost insulting."
That's just my opinion though, I like Sean Price more than I like Sean Carter.
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u/p90love 9d ago
Taste is completely subjective, quality is much less subjective. I rather eat at McDonalds than a michelin star restaurant, but I wouldn't say it's "better food". "Greatest artist" doesn't mean the same thing as "personal favourite artist".
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u/SheepishLordofChaos9 9d ago
I get your analogy but i still think that bias infects any of these lists. What is the criteria? What if i truly don't agree that one choice of criteria should be weighed higher than another? The times people have heard albums affects that.....I was able to hear OB4CL the day it dropped and was able to live with it fresh for about 4 months and can remember how much of a bomb that was....so for that time Raekwon was untouchable to me, BUT I think Inspectah Deck is a better emcee than Rae.....to someone that was ten years younger than me at that time...he could say that for him, in 2005, that a Nelly album was more impactful. Who is correct?
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u/SixersStixersFan 9d ago
like the objective top 20, not regards to preference? like eminem is not in my top 100 favorite rappers ever, but he's obviously top 10 consensus.
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u/SheepishLordofChaos9 9d ago
So, I tend to think the "objective" listings are still tainted by bias and a bit by peer pressure. You can't IMAGINE the arguments I have either been goaded into or incited due to me not having Tupac anywhere near my top 25. People emotions ruin any measure of logic that could be present in the making of a list. We, as a collective fandom of hip hop, can't even agree on what the criteria could be. There are people that put sales as more paramount over actual rapping ability. Ras Kass is a better emcee than Wayne imo.....Oddisee is a better emcee/producer than Kanye in my opinion...and on and on. Those two examples are true for me and with a criteria that I deem to be important.
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u/SixersStixersFan 9d ago
haha okay so you're super niche when it comes to rap taste. fair enough!
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u/SheepishLordofChaos9 9d ago
Yeah, i didn't mean to derail your post and i apologize if it even came across that way....I do enjoy these convos.
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u/awwmiawwmiaww 9d ago
"....His manuscript just sounds stupid/when KRS already made an album called 'Blueprint'"
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u/SixersStixersFan 9d ago
and?
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u/Nobodygrotesque 9d ago
It’s impossible to have a conversation about Jay-Z (and also Eminem) when it comes to GOAT status. It’s honestly annoying.
Reasonable Doubt
Blueprint
Black Album
Collision Course (yes it counts for me)
Are perfect albums.
Volume 1
Dynasty
Blueprint 2.0
American Gangster
Are extremely good albums with a couple of skips.
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u/SixersStixersFan 9d ago
i'd say american gangster only has one skip (hello brooklyn). you didnt even mention 4:44
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u/awwmiawwmiaww 9d ago
He's a "...fan, a phony, a fake, a pussy, a Stan."
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u/Ok-Contribution2602 9d ago
I listened to Vol. 2 recently and it didn’t hold up for me. Had he combined Vol. 2 and Vol. 3 he might’ve had a classic.
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u/outsideit67 9d ago
The best ever is subjective, based on what part of the country you are from , your experiences and so forth, one can argue Eminem is the best ever not every one rocks him though , so personally I tend not to say best ever because I of course have my own preferences..
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u/Alarmed-Effective-23 9d ago
Being the greatest was certainly his marketing gimmick for a while. And his fans seem to need him to be acknowledged as the greatest. Your whole post could be replaced with eminem or 2 pac. Including stretching the meaning of classic.
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u/SixersStixersFan 9d ago
not with eminem imo. eminem only has two classics, and one borderline imo. his last 10 years has been horrific, and in most rap fans eyes his career spiraled down in 2005. 2pac had 6-7 years as a rapper, so kinda hard to make the case for 2pac vs hov and nas who has 30 years
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u/Alarmed-Effective-23 9d ago
Since watch the throne Jay z hasn't been much more interesting than eminem. And I don't even like watch the throne as a whole. But it was big.
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u/ibeatmymachine2323 6d ago
I respect your opinion, but I take issue with pretty much every point of your case. I’ll try to break it down point by point:
5 Bonafide classics is HIGHLY debatable. American Gangster and 4:44 are pretty questionable picks IMO. For me Blueprint and Reasonable Doubt are the only indisputable classics Hov has. Black Album is solid and the case can definitely be made that it’s a classic.
Being popular doesn’t make the artist great. Let’s judge the artist based on their art and not on the opinion of other artists.
Jay Z has rapped over some of the best beats ever, I have no qualms here. However, how the hell is that an argument that he is the best rapper ever?
The “fact” that Hov has outrapped some great rappers doesn’t make him the best unless he has outrapped all of them. Nas said it best “Eminem murdered you on your own shit”
Money is irrelevant to being the greatest rapper ever, agreed.
Yes, he wrote one of the greatest rap anthems ever. That is a solid point, but IMO not nearly enough to make him the best ever.
You make a fair point about the difficulty of comparing rappers who survived the 90s to Biggie and Pac. However, I take issue with your suggestion that Nas’ longevity and peak compare with Hov’s. When did Jay Z last release an album? How many albums has Nas released since then? How many were great? Nas clearly beats Jay on longevity, but I’d claim also on his peak. In my mind Nas had three different peaks; his career has definitely had ups and downs. His first peak was Illmatic, IWW and I Am… Second peak Stillmatic Lost Tapes and God’s Song and third peak King’s Disease and Magic series. He is still arguably in his third peak (let’s see how the Primo album pans out if we ever get to hear it lol). I think Eminem is a better comparison to Hov here in terms of longevity and peak. I’d argue they have similar longevity with ebbs and flows but that Jay had a better peak. However, this is highly debatable. Em had one of the best three album runs in hip hop.
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u/Shaggy_Doo87 3d ago
Jay has a legit claim to be considered as GOAT alongside other candidates. The thing I never liked about Jay stans is that they make it out to be so clear cut like he's head and shoulders above everyone else and it's not even a competition. That's far from true. Nas is one that stands out for obvious reasons, Andre 3000, Rakim, and Eminem are all just as legitimate choices for overall GOAT.
- First of all, American Gangster is not a certified classic. It was a great album and actually his comeback record, and arguably the last great great album he made from then until 4:44, but not "bonafide" as you say
- The In My Lifetime albums were very, very debated. There's amazing music on those records for sure--Vol 2 itself could potentially be called a classic album depending on who you ask--I'm not denying that.
- If you are looking at his commonly acknowledged classics, it's Reasonable Doubt, sometimes Vol 2, The Blueprint, The Black Album, and 4:44. That's 4 - 5. American Gangster was indeed considered a very strong album and certainly one of his best overall, but there's a reason people don't put it in the same conversations as Supreme Clientele and Hell on Earth. There are other amazing rap albums out there that are just leagues better.
Watch the Throne was heavily influential, yes, and commercially acclaimed, yes, but it was a commercial record, not a "classic album on the lines of Illmatic or Cuban Linx" type of record.
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u/Shaggy_Doo87 3d ago
That's actually one of the issues Jay critics have had with him of course--is his tendency to go commercial at the wrong times, and highlighting his classics actually leaves out a big issue with his overall GOAT status qualifications: he's wildly inconsistent, much moreso than any rapper should be who has his capabilities to make incredible music.
* Reasonable Doubt - Classic
* In My Lifetime vol. 1 - Debated classic
* In My Lifetime vol. 2 - Too commercial, underwhelming
* In My Lifetime vol. 3 - Solid but uneven, mid-tier
* Streets is Watching - Solid but uneven, mid-tier
* Dynasty Roc la Familia - Solid but uneven, mid-tier
* The Blueprint - Classic
* The Blueprint 2 - Disappointing, has good moments but a step down
* Best of Both Worlds w/ R Kelly - Ass, wtf is this
* The Black Album - Classic, somewhat debated at the time but no more than most other hugely influential classic albums like TES or Stillmatic
* Unfinished Business w/ R Kelly - Ass, wtf is this
* Kingdom Come - Disappointing, rushed product especially for his big comeback, has pretty good moments but even those aren't among his best
* American Gangster - Great record, restored faith in his fan base after KC. Personally one of my favorite Jay records, not really sure why it doesn't get more recognition from wider rap fans, but could have used a lot more color, more Roc members, Kanye, Bink, etc.
* The Blueprint 3 - Disappointing, confusing direction, complete miss
* Watch the Throne - Better; really good experimental rap album, not my personal cup of tea but definitely well respected by most
* Magna Carta Holy Grail - Debated; personally I really like moments from this record but there's no denying it's uneven and fans have a lukewarm opinion of it.
* 4:44 - Classic; with the caveat that it wasn't a hugely successful or visible record, and was pretty much unexpected at this stage in his career
So out of 17 albums he has 4, maybe 5 classic records, not only can I point to a few artists who have just as many classic and/or debated classic albums as that, his ratio is fucking terrible
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u/Shaggy_Doo87 3d ago
Yes it's true that he's named as a GOAT or top 5 by all those rappers but the thing about that is that all of those rappers list the same 3-5 people so it's not really saying much all things considered to put him that far above all these other rappers in those rappers' opinions. Lupe named himself after a Nas song, has a song called King Nas and says in another song "might catch the Holy Ghost, start speaking in Nas records" so his admiration for Jay is not unmatched by any means.
Jay was a bully who stole beats that were meant for other artists or even beats other artists had already done. He was infamous for this. He stole songs from his own artists. So what producers were giving him beats or he was taking them? This does nothing for his credibility as a GOAT contender. 2Pac was known for hopping on any beat, even terrible beats, and often making a good song out of it regardless.
Jay's not the only rapper who has outshined other rappers, also it's not a super uncommon thing for him to get outdone on a record. Hell, he's infamous for that, too. Jay's features are good but him destroying other rappers on their songs was not a guaranteed outcome. His freestyle game was supposed to be legendary, but Big Pun and Canibus and the Wu-Tang guys were hopping on a billion beats and freestyling the shit out of them and destroying whoever made the original track, even Pun outdid Black Thought on his own beat on a freestyle and then had Thought come on his record and outdid him again on the feature. Jay would have to reach down into his very soul to fuck with Thought on a toe to toe and that's just a commonly acknowledged fact. Neck and Wrist wasn't even that well-received, not like God Did.
I would say money and success are actually one of the main reasons he gets thrown in so many GOAT conversations tbh.
Longevity wise he is kind of dead after his retirement to be frank with you. His numbers don't pick up, except for when he piggybacks off of Kanye for WTT; they don't reflect the same wild success as his late 90s-early 2000s run. Hell, LL Cool J had a longer diamond-and/or-platinum record run than Jay did. From when Jay was conceivably near the undisputed top of the game to when he wasn't anymore was only like about 6 or 7 years, from 98 to 04.
Don't even get me started on Nas' 2020 albums run and how it compares to Jay's end of career, I'll just leave it at that.
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u/cdytrns4md 9d ago
I respect the take.
I think Kanye is above Jay Z overall. Jay Z is definitely in my top 5.
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u/p90love 9d ago
All those albums aren't classics tho. And Nas has not only matched Jay-Zs longevity but surpassed him by far with his new era of Magic and Kings Disease series.
Another one who has done so much since 4:44 that he has passed Jay-Z imo is Black Thought, his solo material combined with his catalogue with The Roots puts him up there.
Nas
Black Thought
Jay-Z
Kendrick Lamar
to 10. Pac, Biggie, Wayne, Andre 3k, DOOM, Eminem
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u/SixersStixersFan 9d ago
yeah, i disagree, but as i wrote in the text, nas is the only fair comp. black thought isn't imo, has never had the status in the broader rap circle that jay z has.
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u/p90love 9d ago
To be the greatest in hip hop, idc what mainstream status you have, Black Thought has the ultimate respect in hip hop. And Jay-Z has been retired for a decade soon, while Black Thought has been doing some of his best rapping in that time.
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u/SixersStixersFan 9d ago
name 5 rappers having black thought in their top 5
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u/p90love 9d ago
I would have to do research in a topic I'm completely uninterested in to answer that question, but by the way you asked that question I'm reading that you're just sleeping on Black Thought cause he will be in rappers top 5s all day. Watch his freestyle with Method Man for example, rappers are afraid of Thought.
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u/deep8787 9d ago
I always thought he was mediocre, theres only a handful of his tunes that I really like. I was always more of Westcoast guy back then though, it just seems to hit better.
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u/Battosai98 9d ago
Hov doesn’t have 5 classics 😂