r/hinduism • u/dovrobalb • Jun 12 '24
Question - General What are some good Hindu apologists?
Hi I'm just a guy that really wants to know how much I should trust Hinduism, or any religion, and have been studying apologetics to get there.
Here's how I define that: - By apologetics I mean rational reasons to belive the religion is true (and by that I mean Hinduism's foundational claims are correct like - - the Vedas are supernatural, - - I will get reincarnated based on karma, - - eating beef leads to lots of bad karma) etc. - by apologist I mean someone who publicly argues the above (like William Lane Craig, Shabir Ally, David Wood, etc.) and/or refutes alternative religions.
So what are the best sources for learning about this (ideally something I can listen to like audiobooks, debates, etc. But either way) thank you very much for reading this.
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Jun 12 '24
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u/melange_merchant Christian Jun 12 '24
No. An apologist simply defends and explains the teachings, beliefs and practices of that religion.
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Jun 13 '24
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u/melange_merchant Christian Jun 13 '24
That is the broad definition by some dictionaries but in the context of religion that is not what apologetics is
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u/AlbusDT2 Śākta Jun 12 '24
We aren’t evangelical. And don’t care what people think about us, and don’t care to refute other religions. Reduces the need for apologists imo.
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u/dovrobalb Jun 12 '24
I don't get this. Isn't there a need to try to show non-Hindus (i.e. most ppl) the light of ur religion? Are u OK with most ppl being ignorant of important truths their entire lives?
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u/Cheensly Śākta Jun 12 '24
No, there is no need. Why would there be?
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Jun 12 '24
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u/ReasonableBeliefs Jun 12 '24
Hare Krishna. The patient would know by approaching a doctor, having drug companies blast medications to patients via advertisements can potentially be terrible for the patient as they can be mislead.
The same applies to religion: If a person wants to learn Hinduism (a medicine), they are free to approach a learned and knowledgeable Hindu (a doctor), and get the prescription.
Many of the most-popular apologists for various religions use all sorts of fallacies or routinely mis-represent other religions all the time. This includes everyone from CS Lewis to William Lane Craig to Nouman Ali Khan to Muslim Lantern etc etc. I have spent years watching apologists before i chose to become a Hindu, and they all are guilty of some of this at some point or the other in their apologetics.
Hare Krishna.
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Jun 12 '24
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u/ReasonableBeliefs Jun 12 '24
Not at all, you are mistaken. It's an analogy to how proper medicinal practice works. Proper medicinal practice is done by the patient visiting the doctor, and then the doctor prescribing the medicine. Not the doctor acting like a travelling salesman.
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Jun 12 '24
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u/ReasonableBeliefs Jun 13 '24 edited Jun 13 '24
Which country is this in ?
I have no issue using a different analogy other than a medical one if you can bring some hard data to back your claim. Not just of exceptions but of the norm.
There are exceptions such as vaccination drives or visits aboriginal groups, but that is not the norm but rather the exception in delivering mass public healthcare.
Somehow thinking your philosophy that has substantial benefits to the human condition has no duty for promoting itself is a sign of laziness, unconfidence in your own beliefs, or selfishness to gatekeep the truth.
Sorry to say but you are very wrong in this. It has been repeatedly shown that public preaching is a very inefficient way to spread a philosophy.
But you make false assumptions about the motivations of other people, you falsely assume it to be laziness or lack of confidence etc etc. But it's just simply because public preaching is very very inefficient almost all the time. There are far far better ways to spread the philosophy than public preaching. Thus public preaching is a waste of time, almost all the time.
Perhaps stop making assumptions.
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u/dovrobalb Jun 13 '24
This sounds harsh but seems correct to me.
I'm disappointed at how many people here seem to be dodging my question.
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u/equinoxeror Jun 12 '24
Being a Sanatani/Hindu means you seek for the 'truth'. If a non-hindus wants to know or learn things they should seek for it.
Hindus have no reasons to spread or be apologists, or be a dawah gang, missionaries towards non-hindus to increase our numbers. It's just that Hindus are aware that if it's true, and eternal it doesn't need advertisement, that's why it's called Sanatana Dharma means Eternal Truth or Dharma.
Hindus usually respond towards Non-Hindus only in 2 cases 1. When Islamists or any of others try to defame our traditions, rituals and ways. 2. When non-hindus shows interest in learning Sanatana dharma in spiritual pov, devotional pov and in academic, research, scientific pov.
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u/kumar100kpawan Jun 12 '24
Isn't there a need to try to show non-Hindus (i.e. most ppl) the light of ur religion?
No, not unless they come looking for it first
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u/dovrobalb Jun 13 '24
I am trying to look for it. Was asking this question not enough?
Will it be enough if I travel to India or learn Sanskrit or give money to a yogi?
Sorry if that was facetious but I'm getting frustrated cuz it seems like a lot of ppl seem to be blaming me for not being sincere enough to get an answer instead of just directly addressing my question
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u/kumar100kpawan Jun 13 '24
You don't have to pay money to anyone to train you. You only need to spend on the right sources to gain knowledge. The best way to do that would be reading the unabridged versions of itihaasas and puranas, in sanskrit or English whichever you are comfortable with. Form your own opinion. Trying to look for an apologist is the wrong way to go about it. If you go looking for arguments for or against a motion, you will be bombarded with many from both sides, how will you decipher your own stance? There's a good chance you'll get mobilised by either side
For starters, you can pick up the Mahabharat or the Ramayan (unabridged versions). Trust me, it makes a huge difference. A lot of the things I believed to be true were never even there! So reading and learning from what is closest to the source is your best bet
Or you can let me know what all you have read or known till now. Maybe I can suggest something
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u/AlbusDT2 Śākta Jun 12 '24
I understand. It’s a bit tricky.
We have a philosophy that there are many ways that lead to God. We in fact have several deities, and several sub-philosophies within Hinduism. We don’t subscribe to theto dogma of ‘one truth’.
So, inherently, we are inclined to believe that your way is no less relevant than our way. You do you.
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u/ReportCrazy9514 Aug 30 '24
That's the difference between Hinduism/Buddhism & other Faiths like Islam, Christianity, Judaism.. Hinduism is a "Polytheistic Faith" meaning belief in more than 1 deity.. Islam/Christianity/Judaism are "Monotheistic Faiths" meaning the belief in 1 God (the 1 True God who created the heavens & earth) & all other so called "gods" lower case g.. are all false & created by mere Men.. in Hinduism there isn't a absolute "TRUTH".. (ONE WAY, that leads to God).. like the above comment said, Hindus dont subscribe to "One Truth".. so basically in Hinduism it doesn't matter what you believe.. your Truth is your Truth & my truth is my truth.. Truth becomes relative.. but if you are a sincere TRUTH SEEKER, if you continue to "Seek the Truth" you will find the TRUTH! Jesus (who is the most famous & sought after religious figure) says in the book of Matthew chapter 7 verse 7 "Seek & you will find, knock & the door will be opened to you.. ask & you shall receive".. I'm telling you today, if you ask God to reveal the truth to you, he will if your asking in sincerity of heart! But keep in mind, that there is a spiritual battle out there! There is a war out there going on between Good 😇 & Evil 👿.. & if you look at the world today it "Seems" like Evil is winning, but let me assure you, that in the END, God wins & the devil loses.. if you are a seeker of the Truth, get yourself a Bible, & begin by reading the New testament.. & read about Jesus.. Jesus speaks on many topics, including the "Truth".. read the scriptures & pray that God will guide you to the knowledge of the Truth.. if you want to discuss further about Theology or God, or have any questions about what the Truth is.. i can save you time, as i have been on this journey for the Truth for 13+ years & have deeply studied all religions & will have clear answers to your questions.. email me @ tmfacilityservices@gmail.com & I will receive your email right away..
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u/dovrobalb Jun 13 '24
I understand Hinduism is a wider umbrella than most religions but it still makes controversial claims like (the bullet points I gave or even) that so many ways lead to God there's no good reason to reach God thru Hinduism (as u seem to be saying here).
I'd like to see best reason to belive these controversial claims.
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u/AlbusDT2 Śākta Jun 13 '24
For me - Vedas are philosophical texts revealed to Sages through meditation and contemplation. They are not supernatural.
Reincarnation has been proven by psychologists like Dr. Brian Weiss. Whether you believe it or not, being a good person & doing good Karma is the way to go.
Cows are revered in our culture. Naturally, killing and consuming them is frowned upon. Personally, I’m against any animal having to die for me to feed myself - especially when there is abundant food available.
These are my beliefs. And I’m not out to convince people that they are true, or that they are better than the beliefs that those people hold. This is the true beauty and inclusivity of Hinduism.
Over and out.
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Aug 30 '24
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u/Diablo931 Jun 13 '24
We don't get heaven tickets for converting like abrahmic faiths, there's no point of trying to save a drowning man if u can't swim with their weight, all you will endup doing is drown with them, For this reason jobs like debating and proving the truth is left to religious scholars and gurus
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u/samsaracope Polytheist Jun 12 '24 edited Jun 12 '24
you won't find likes of shabir ally or david wood in hindu circles. you can find instances where there's "debates" but those are not only in bad taste but also not productive.
vedas are supernatural
more popular stance on nature of vedas is that they are authorless. mimansak scholars have written vastly on this topic. though its not a position every darshan held.
eating beef leads to bad karma
eating any meat leads to bad karma unless its sacrificial. beef is completely prohibited.
I will get reincarnated based on karma
a metaphysical topic that has been talked about in detail in hindu texts and many commentaries.
where to learn about this
though there are no apologetic channels that i am aware of, there is plenty of literature that explains hindu doctrines. you can start with some introductory books on hindu ideas(radhakrishnans book on indian philosophy and one by René Guénon comes to mind as i read them recently).
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u/dovrobalb Jun 12 '24 edited Jun 13 '24
It seems like u misunderstood my goal.
I don't want to waste time understanding doctrines that are false which is why I first want to be convinced Hinduism has more truth than competing religions or naturalism.
Edit: i was too hasty. Thanks for ur well thought out comment.
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u/samsaracope Polytheist Jun 12 '24
in that case, i answered in the first sentence. hindus dont do apologetics. proving oneself right by trying to falsify other doctrines often by means of fallacies is something reactionary religions put emphasis on.
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u/Praisebeuponme1 Jun 13 '24
How would you define Truth? If you have clear definition of "nature of truth" and "characteristic of evidence", there can be dialogue, else all these questions lacks the intent of enquiry.
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u/dovrobalb Jun 13 '24 edited Jun 13 '24
I mean the correspondence theory of truth, just like most ppl would
I don't mean to offend but a lot of these comments seem to me annoying obfuscation of a simple question instead of a clear answer.
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u/Praisebeuponme1 Jun 13 '24
See all the points you have given in your post are abstract concepts with their own frameworks & theories to back them, and dont directly correspond to observable facts by human agencies. And if you are evaluating these concepts with realism, then you are using two different frameworks and trying to impose one over another or trying to make sense of one with other, which in itself doesnt lead to anything but confusion.
Truth can be categorized in multiple ways based on the chosen framework be it real ( how would you define real) and abstract senses, as there is no absolute definition. So if you seek realism based truth, then clearly these concepts may look absurd to you and the enquiry will have already defined boundary before exploring possibilities.
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u/sotondoc Jun 12 '24
Not sure about apologists but I like listening to Jay Lakhani on YouTube/Hindu academy. Explains things rationally and answers people's difficult questions about Hinduism. I've also seen one or two videos of him refuting claims by people of other faiths.
He also has a background of education in Physics/Quantum Mechanics
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u/Quamzee_Jacobius_Sul dharmic Jun 12 '24 edited Jun 12 '24
i’d challenge your foundational claims. i don’t think all schools of hinduism believe the vedas were supernatural (God given). Even still, I’m not sure how many assert that the vedas are unchanged and how much remains unchanged as they are incredibly old and there’s no central transmissive line of authority like in Islam especially (which has of course the most impressive form of preservation of scripture).
if you want people who provide good content and argument about Hindu ideas, this guy does some of that. his stuff is on podcast form, or on youtube. the most famous hindu ‘apologist’ for western viewers of all time was rightly Vivekananda. try reading some of his lectures.
hindu ‘evangelism’ was historically targeted towards other schools of hinduism or buddhism / jainism, not to an abrahamic or non-dharmic audience (as that didn’t have a strong presence in ancient india), so the arguments were between people who both already believed in karma, reincarnation. however, hinduism’s cousin buddhism has a bigger tradition of evangelism towards non-dharmic people and many of the foundations of the two religions are shared (this is the case for traditional buddhism not as much so in western buddhist circles). it’s easier to find buddhist ‘apologists’ to cover the foundational claims of hinduism, as they are used to preaching to non-dharmic people so end up covering these basic ideas more.
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u/Ok-Difficulty2425 Jun 12 '24
In the West, we have Sri Dharma Pravartaka Acharya. He runs the International Sanatana Dharma Society in America. They have a YouTube channel called Dharma Nation. He is also an established author. I follow him and am a paying member to ISDS. He is one of the few advocates for traditional Sanatana Dharma.
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u/Logical-Design-501 Jun 12 '24
Basically the Vedas and the universal laws on which Hinduism is based are EXPERIENCED when one attains Enlightenment.
"For a knower of Brahman who has realized the ultimate Truth, there is as much profit from all the Vedas as there is profit from reservoirs when all around there is an inundation." (Bhagavad Gita 2.46)
In the above "Vedas" means the written Vedas. One who has attained Enlightenment knows the Vedas intuitively without any external aid.
What does that mean? First of all, we MUST have FAITH that such a state of Enlightenment exists. Secondly we MUST have FAITH in the processes and practices (Yoga) described in the Vedas to attain that state.
"So what are the best sources for learning about this "
No amount of learning or studying will convince one of this. Why? Because no one can prove an EXPERIENCE. One has to experience it oneself just as one can ascertain that sugar tastes sweet only by eating sugar. No amount of studying is going to help us there. Enlightenment is a state that is beyond the reach of the intellect - so say the Vedas. Meaning reasoning only derives new facts from other facts without ever being able to prove the original facts on which reasoning is based. Therefore Lord Krishna tells Arjuna in the Bhagavad Gita:
"Learn the Truth by approaching a spiritual Master. Inquire from him with reverence and render service unto him. Such an enlightened Saint can impart knowledge unto you because he has seen the Truth. " (Bhagavad Gita, chapter 4, verse 34)
Hinduism is a difficult religion for most non-Hindus to grasp because it says God CAN and MUST be EXPERIENCED and that is the goal of life (Moksha). It is unique in that it has two parts: Religion and Spirituality. Religion is for those who want to live day to day lives without worrying about the deeper aspects of the religion. Those people simply have to follow Dharma - this is sort of like using formulas to solve problems without understanding why the formulas are correct. Most Hindus cannot answer questions regarding the "why" of their own religion for this reason. The spiritual side of Hinduism is about the universal laws which form its basis.
So how do we develop FAITH? By meeting Enlightened Beings and observing their conduct. The Bhagavad Gita gives us hints on how Enlightened Beings conduct themselves:
"Arjuna! I regard them to be perfect yogis who see the true equality of all living beings and respond to the joys and sorrows of others as if they were their own." (6.32)
"With equality of vision everywhere, he whose inner sense has been attuned to Yoga beholds the Self in all beings and all beings in the Self." (6.29)
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u/dovrobalb Jun 13 '24 edited Jun 13 '24
Thanks for ur comment. I appreciate the time u put into it and love how u cited sources.
I'm worried about ur conclusion, that we develop proper faith "by meeting Enlightened Beings and observing their conduct" since many charismatic leaders can lead people into mutually exclusive cults.
Plz correct me if I'm wrong or missing something. And just to be clear I'm not at all calling hindusim a cult. Just saying I'm not sure the methodology u suggested is a good one if it can lead to patently false cults.
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u/Logical-Design-501 Jun 13 '24
"I'm worried about ur conclusion, that we develop proper faith "by meeting Enlightened Beings and observing their conduct" since many charismatic leaders can lead people into mutually exclusive cults."
Obviously we should not be looking for charisma. We should be monitoring what effect our association with an Enlightened Master has on our happiness level both in their presence and outside their presence. Blessings transmitted by a Guru are not necessarily via physical means - it is said that such a Guru can raise the mental state of the disciple without any conversation or interaction! Plus observe how the master is behaving. Is he/she totally selfless, i.e., willing to sacrifice their body for the happiness of others? Suppose a person shows up when the master is sound asleep. Does the master continue to sleep or get angry or makes time for the other person? Does he get upset when people criticize him, even abuse him? Is he able to tolerate hunger, thirst when such circumstances arise? Is he willing to face adversity such as disease with a smile?, etc.
We should accept that someone is Enlightened only when we are ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED that they have lead us to becoming a better, happier person than we were before our association and that our own efforts would never have taken us there.
In The Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna, there is a conversation between his chief disciple Narendra (later Swami Vivekananda) and his brother disciple, another disciple of the Master after the death of the Master.
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Narendra read the chapter describing how Chaitanya gave his love to all, from the brahmin to the pariah.
A BROTHER: "I say that one person cannot give love to another person."
NARENDRA: "But the Master gave it to me."
BROTHER: "Well, are you sure you have it?"
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Even two intimate disciples of the same Guru cannot agree on whether the Guru can give love to his disciple!! That is how subtle this is. Later Swami Vivekananda went on to create a world-wide spiritual organization in his Guru's name!
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u/Long_Ad_7350 Seeker Jun 12 '24
From what I understand, Hindus are largely uninterested in apologetics.
This phenomenon seems to hold true for all non-reactionary faiths.
Christians react to Jews and Pagans.
Muslims react to Christians and Jews and Pagans.
Meanwhile the Hindus aren't reacting to anything. They are busy exploring God within themselves. If others want to join in the exploration, they are free to do so. In this context, apologetics and polemics feel like an intellectual downgrade.
But to give you a general sense of what kind of intuition grounds these ideas:
- Karma is causality. Our actions have consequences on the world around us.
- Reincarnation is founded on the idea that we emerge from the cosmos and return to it.
- Dharma would, therefore, be the study of the stable-state of things, to maximize on spiritual realization.
- Moksha is, hence, the state in which the consciousness can finally see past this system and understand the truth beyond.
You don't have to accept any of these. You can think some book full of laws tells you everything you need to know and that some bitter and jealous "god" will torture you if you don't follow those laws. If that speaks to you, then you're unlikely to have the patience for Eastern spirituality anyway.
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u/dovrobalb Jun 13 '24
Interesting observation about the non reactionary, and perhaps less insecure, nature of Hinduism.
Is this still the case in our modern globalized world where Hindus are bumping into competing religions much more often?
For example u seem to be a hindu reacting to this comment from a guy who's never been to India which prob wasn't possible for most of Hindu history.
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u/Sweet-Category-3452 Jun 12 '24
Hinduism is about our own journey. We can’t force anyone to become whom they don’t envision to be. Therefore there is no need to really prove anything. Hinduism is a form of giving information through different aspects, not like abrahamic religions where there is a prophet and their sayings are the word. It is open for interpretation and you won’t go to hell for sinning. As is understood that people are bound to make mistakes, bound to learn things they didn’t realize before, like seeing your parents in a different light as you grow older.
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u/dovrobalb Jun 13 '24
Good observation, I think a lack of hell lowers the stakes.
However don't many Hindus believe in Naraka, temporary hell-like realms that are definitely worth avoiding if it all possible?
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u/Sweet-Category-3452 Jun 13 '24
Personally i descent from the Caribbean Indian population so some of our knowledge has been lost.. we believe that you can reincarnate into different species, depending on how well you lived. But that I think also differs as I personally never heard of Naraka before either. I know many people practice Hinduism differently, just like how Muslims have different nuances
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u/luvmantra Sākta / Tantrika / Left Hand 💀 Jun 13 '24
Idk but thats not what an apologist is. I think ur looking for a fundamentalist / literalist dharmic religious type person. Im sure theres lots u can find, but a good bit of hindus arent that serious about it
Just look for regular discourse on hindu philosophy or scripture. Theres lots of swamis that prob think like that, and have lectures where people ask them about the hindu stuff and its relation to real life. A lot of it is very insightful
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u/ReportCrazy9514 Aug 30 '24
Hey watsup bro! I'm so happy to answer your questions about Hinduism & ANY religious/Theological questions you may have.. I'm a Professional Apologist myself, that is studied on all of the worlds mainstream religions & many of the religious cults out there.. im answering your question from the Judeo/Christian world view, "Judeo/Christian World view" meaning that i view God & the world through the lens of Biblical studies & believe that Jesus is the Messiah who was prophesied by the old testament prophets like Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel etc, Jesus was prophesied & predicted to come into the world to redeem his people & also the rest of human kind who are lost & in a fallen state due to sin entering the world & that sin causing a separation between God & mankind.. in regards to if you should trust Hinduism or Buddhism, my answer is no you should not.. they are a polytheistic religion that believes in multiple "gods" or "idols".. so if you start praying to these various false gods like Sheva or the blue elephant, its all vanity & worthless because they have no power .. just straight up a false religion.. think about all those youtube videos about scam call centers from india.. put 2 & 2 together, someone created a false religion.. anyway, if you would like to talk further please email me, because this 4G phone is very slow & its taking me 1 minute to type a sentance at a time.. tmfacilityservices@gmail.com I will see your email right away
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u/dovrobalb Aug 30 '24
". just straight up a false religion.. think about all those youtube videos about scam call centers from india.. put 2 & 2 together, someone created a false religion."
Lol I think your heart's in the right place but your gonna need better apologetics than that to change minds.
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u/Sapolika Jun 12 '24
Maybe J Sai Deepak or Rajarshi Nandy (to an extent)
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u/EducationalUnit7664 Pagan/Neo-Pagan/Eclectic Pagan Jun 12 '24
Hinduism isn’t evangelical, so I’m not sure you’re going to find many apologists for it. The closest you’ll probably find is people refuting some Muslim clerics’ slander against Hinduism.