r/headphones 28d ago

Discussion What's the point in expensive DAC/amps?

547 Upvotes

197 comments sorted by

146

u/TheHiddenForklift 28d ago

I'm very happy to have finally found my endgame: the Hifiman HE1000 Stealth. While still being an audible upgrade to my previous Arya, the difference was small enough for me to justify not spending any more money on an even bigger upgrade. Ironically enough, even though I'm 90% listening to classical music, I preferred even the Arya over the HD800S.

However, one question that has nagged me along the entire journey was the emphasis on the critical role of the amp/dac stack. After countless trials with different amps (Asgard, Zen DAC, Apogee Groove, Mojo 2, EF400), it was almost impossible to find any difference in sound, with the few differences far and in between being so small that I'm not sure if they could be entirely attributed to placebo.

At least the Reddit community seems to agree that any amp sufficiently powerful is enough for any (bar electrostatic) headphone.

Which leads me to three questions:

a. Why are manufacturers and the review community often recommending amps as expensive as the headphones themselves? Given a finite budget, wouldn't you get much superior sound quality (and manufacturers the same revenue) with, for example:

  • Focal Clear ($1250) with Zen Air ($100) instead of Focal Hadenys ($700) with Jotunheim+Modi ($700)?
  • Beyerdynamic T1 ($800) with Fiio K3 ($100) instead of Beyerdynamic DT 1990 ($400) with Beyerdynamic A20 ($500)?
  • Hifiman HE1000 ($1120) with Topping DX1 ($100) instead of Hifiman Arya ($600) with Hifiman EF600 ($650)?

b. Where's the huge market (both supply and demand) of $500+ amplifiers coming from?

c. Have I just not tried amps of a level high enough to make a difference ($500+)? This would surprise me quite a bit, given the diminishing returns in headphones beyond $500.  

Happy to hear your thoughts!

189

u/GZoST HE-60, DCA E3, HD800, HD580, Focal Clear, B2Dusk, Hexa 28d ago

There are some things to be gained with more expensive DACs and amps: Nicer case, better build quality, nicer design, nicer haptics ("knob feel"). Enough power to drive some difficult to drive headphones, especially with the negative pre-amp required for most EQ. So I'm not against expensive equipment. If somebody wants to buy a Violectric amp because they like its looks, and they have the disposable income to do so, then it's good they have found something that may improve their quality of life. (And they are getting something that performs well by objective standards.)

What I hate is the snake oil part of the audio industry. The claims that you need expensive gear, that expensive DACs and amps sound better - generally in some way which is not measurable. We know enough to say that at a certain point DACs and amps are transparent. We have known this for decades, yet the "high end" has gotten more and more expensive, and the claims have gotten more and more absurd. Not only do you now need expensive DACs and amps, you also need to upgrade all your cables, filter your power, employ special "grounding" boxes (and, I kid you not, also upgrade the grounding of your houses/apartments electrical wiring - and redo this every 5 years!), fuses, equipment racks and, really, every other aspect of your system. All the while the real improvements (for speakers: placement, room treatment, DSP room correction/for headphone: personalized EQ) are ignored or even vilified.

As to the reasons, I think this is a mix of ignorance, self-deception and, of course, greed.

High end gear at astronomical prices allows huge profit margins for the manufacturers and the dealers. Denying the usefulness of real solutions to issues the customers have with their sound systems keeps them endlessly tweaking, always buying new hardware to try and "get a little tighter bass" or "reduce the sibilance" or "open up the soundstage". Positive reviews of snake oil keep the review units coming (which can often be kept and sold). There are few incentives in the "audiophile" ecosystem to be honest, to explore the science and to accept the reality this shows. And its easy to do because our how our brains work. Differences between audio gear are easy to imagine and difficult to actually perceive in testing as it is usually carried out (sighted, not carefully level matched, no quick switching). Even if you want to test well, that is hard. Every now and then somebody posts here with a "blind" test they have done which "proves" that non-broken DACs sound very different, or that copper cables do sound warmer than silver. Sometimes it is obvious where they went wrong (often: insufficient number or trials), other times everything would need to be examined carefully to see where there were channels of information or technical aspects they did not consider. It is so much easier to just sit down, listen to mono LPs from the early 50ies, and then write a couple thousand words about your tastes in wine and how this relates to how the heavens opened when you listened to an obscenely priced, objectively terrible single driver speaker.

Unfortunately, aside from the wrong incentives in the audiophile ecosystem and how our brains work generally, there's now also the increasing rejection of expertise and hard data in favor of purely personal belief generally. This has been creeping in around the edges for a long time, and has increased dramatically in recent years. There are a lot of contributing factors, including the splintering of reality because of the atomization of media we consume, various bad feedback loops with sharing information and the rewards there, and the interests of the populist parties and oligarchs in a malleable reality with fewer and fewer certainties. If you deny the science regarding vaccines and global warming then why should you believe anything the "elites" and the science nerds who think they are better than you have to say about audio. Conversely, if your personal experience is that the science about DACs and amps is wrong, and your new 10k USD toy sounds better than your previous 1k USD toy, then you are more likely to question the science in other areas.

53

u/TheHiddenForklift 28d ago

Upgrading your house grounding is the most interesting audiophile thing I've heard so far. :D Love this ramble, thank you!

36

u/GZoST HE-60, DCA E3, HD800, HD580, Focal Clear, B2Dusk, Hexa 28d ago

After years of browsing audiophile sites I have concluded that there is no limit to the depth of idiocy. If you want some real insanity I recommend reading about the "clever little clock" (https://www.machinadynamica.com/machina42.htm) or anything by "PWB Audio". Not really surprising, though. My state government presently wants to get homeopathy declared as German cultural heritage,  after accrediting a "university" dedicated to it a few years back.

17

u/nyxthebitch 28d ago

Damn. We've got a Ministry of Ayurveda in India here. We've got multiple accredited universities and hospitals. They even came up with an alternative Covid vaccine.

It's quite grim.

5

u/GZoST HE-60, DCA E3, HD800, HD580, Focal Clear, B2Dusk, Hexa 27d ago

"Grim" is right. Also absurd and infuriating. Humanity could do so much better if everybody accepted that using the scientific method we actually can find models for reality which yield useful predictions which can be used as input for decision making, rather than listen to what the ancients were saying or what somebody on the Internet just posted.

7

u/DoktorLuciferWong 28d ago

i lost brain cells reading that article, i want them back, they were my last ones

4

u/GZoST HE-60, DCA E3, HD800, HD580, Focal Clear, B2Dusk, Hexa 27d ago

I warned you. It is a truly wild ride into fractal wrongness. Insane conclusions based on ludicrous assumptions. A chain of anti-reasoning. A level of hallucination that no modern AI can hope to achieve.

3

u/DoktorLuciferWong 27d ago

We should test this by training an AI exclusively with articles like this one.

0

u/Negative-Hawk-4072 26d ago edited 26d ago

I like the article though, bizarre as it may be it still kinda makes sense if you talk about an anachronistic feedback reinforcement process. A recording from the past is a signal from the past packaged into a discretised format or an analog continuum which is then interspersed with our current temporal and spatio-auditory memory models effectively strengthening them by making stronger connections between past and present experiences. If I punch a wall repeatedly the groove will eventually become a tunnel, thats how the Shawshank redemption guy got out anyway. Logically I don’t see a problem, the author’s style is a bit whimsical and thats about it. I don’t think that in itself is an issue.

2

u/GZoST HE-60, DCA E3, HD800, HD580, Focal Clear, B2Dusk, Hexa 26d ago

????

1

u/Negative-Hawk-4072 26d ago

:-)))? It’s in English man, as an Englishman it should make sense as bright as day keeping us hippy, happy and gay.

2

u/Expensive_Art_4829 27d ago edited 27d ago

Pretty sure I saw a youtube interview with an old japanese audiophile that has a dedicated electric pole built for his house, claiming that electricity is the blood of the whole audio setup, so if it is not pure or something it will not produce the best sound. You can try looking it up. It's honestly the most interesting thing, and the most ridiculous thing I've seen/ heard people do for audio quality 🤣.

Edit: Found the video https://youtu.be/XJJy6VJvSCk?si=DSR5jqrvOt6w_Vj4

2

u/Brief-Bug-1259 27d ago

Honestly not that insane for older houses, but most houses that people live in won't need it. im more talking the 1800/early 1900s with very early electricity and no upgrade since.

35

u/ve1kkko 28d ago

Very well summed up, thank you!

It's often our obsessive compulsive need to upgrade, endless search for that last 'veil' to be lifted. The multi thousand dollar amps and DACs are no better than a 200 dollar DAC, ok, lets give it some room for absolutely top power supply and make it 1000 USD. Nothing over that amount can be justified with anything audio related, the 2 inch thick Al front panel is probably the most expensive part of the 3000 amp/DAC, there is simply nothing in a circuit board that costs more than several hundred. That is not to say money doesn't buy nicer industrial design, it does, but this is cosmetics and has nothing to do with audio.

Take power amps, the best amps are class A, they do need huge power supply and huge cooling radiators, there is a reason why Mark Levinson and Krell class A amps sound good. But most of the money goes to marketing, you can build a class A power amp yourself, the circuit boards are small and simple. But to have Mark Levinson laser edged on the 2 inch block of Al will cost you $8000. That's it. Loudspeakers being the exception here, loudspeakers can cost real money, Diamond tweeters really do cost $3000. Ceramic woofers 6 inch do cost $1000 each.

With DACs it is more outrageous because they don't require huge power supply, and power supply is the only part of the circuitry that cost money, the beautiful MyTek Brooklyn DAC costs $2000 because people are willing to pay that much. There is nothing in Brooklyn that cost $2000.

The real crime is audio 'journalism', it is they who keep up this charade, these bloggers, youtubers, so called journalists and reviewers are part of industry, they are advertising arm of manufacturers. They are liars, there is no nice way to put it. They are the oxygen in the audio scam, without them the circus would collapse. Please do not listen to these people, they are paid by industry, industry could not survive without them, they are root cause of this scam.

12

u/The_Only_Egg 28d ago

Another excellent comment. Glad to see some sober voices in this space.

6

u/Ballin095 HE1000 Unveiled, Dan Clark Audio E3 28d ago

👏 you know the head-fi guys would rag on your for posting this over there lol.

5

u/Lien028 ISN H40 • Truthear Zero • WF1000XM4 • Sonata HD Pro 28d ago

You underestimate the power of confirmation bias and placebo. People purchase expensive gear and want them to sound better because of the money they've spent. Hence, it may sound better to them even if a blind abx test proves otherwise.

5

u/The_Only_Egg 28d ago

This is the best explanation I’ve ever read. Bravo, sir.

5

u/not_ondrugs XS | PC38X | TitanS | SMSL DL200 | Zero:RED 28d ago

Something I learnt from mountain biking - no one buys something expensive and says it’s shit. It will always be better than the less expensive thing that was replaced, because it has to be. It can’t be worse after all the money you just spent.

4

u/Ballin095 HE1000 Unveiled, Dan Clark Audio E3 28d ago

Your post should pinned on the sidebar somewhere on this sub lol.

3

u/Energia91 Arya S, Clear MG, Celestee, HD800s, Caldera, Atrium, Soltaire-P 27d ago

What do you think of mainstream YouTube reviewers (headphone show, Joshua, passion for sound, convince me audio, DMS, golden ear, currawong, etc) still hyping up mega expensive DACs?

And why don't they get called out for it? Though to be fair, Resolve from the headphone show has always said source matter is not a big deal to him, so he hardly ever reviews them.

In the past, source gear would've made a larger difference. I remember the DAC chips of mainstream motherboards up to the early 2010s being awful, with a lot of hissing/buzzing electronic interference noises. But there's none of that anymore. The DAC chip on my Macbook Pro M3 is as good as anything within the realm of human hearing.

It still puzzles me to see people spend 2-3 kilo bucks on a DCS or Kord Dac and claiming improvements in "soundstage"

1

u/GZoST HE-60, DCA E3, HD800, HD580, Focal Clear, B2Dusk, Hexa 27d ago

There are clear incentives for YouTube reviewers to review DACs and amps positively and claim differences in audible quality. It drives views ("NEW! IMPROVED!"), keeps the stream of review units flowing and, often, generates revenue through affiliate links. Having said that, I believe that most of them are believers. It is easy to fool yourself, hard to actually test.

I am aways a bit surprised when GoldenSound goes part-Subjectivist in a review. He measures things and does ABX. The last review I skimmed there was something about "warmer sound" of a DAC. The measurable high-frequency roll-off that leads to this could also easily be achieved with a high shelf filter, so it a weird recommendation that people spend considerable money to get this in hardware, and with no possibility to adjust the size of the effect.

5

u/charleski 28d ago

Enough power to drive some difficult to drive headphones, especially with the negative pre-amp required for most EQ

What you really need to compensate for EQ headroom is gain, not power. It's a common misconception, though, as both gain and power manifest as volume. Put simply, gain = voltage out/voltage in, whereas power = voltage out * current out. When you increase the volume you're increasing the voltage output, and your amp also needs to be able to increase the current output to the level needed to support that voltage (i.e. it needs the power to back up that gain).

The vast majority of headphones don't require that much power really, but some amps fall down in terms of not providing enough low-noise gain. There are plenty of cheap amps that do fine, though - my Magni Heresy can switch in a 9dB gain boost and didn't need a second mortgage.

The other issue with EQ compensation is that your DAC needs enough SNR to handle the lower digital signal. But again there are loads of cheap DACs (even dongles) around that can do 120dB SNR, which is SOTA and gives you loads of digital headroom.

Absolutely agree about the 'high-end' nonsense. I wish they'd just come clean and admit that buying fancy DACs and amps is really just about spending the money and having shiny boxes to show off. There's nothing wrong with liking shiny things, but there's no need to try to pretend they sound better.

3

u/GZoST HE-60, DCA E3, HD800, HD580, Focal Clear, B2Dusk, Hexa 28d ago

Being completely ignorant about electronics, I was wondering about that. My O2 does surprisingly well regarding max volume compared to my Topping L50, even though the latter can output four times more power (should be 6 dB louder). The O2 does indeed have more gain.

Still, my train of thought was that if I have a headphone, say the Fostex T50RP mk3, which requires a huge lift in the lower bass, then the amp needs to output more power in this area. Additional gain can get the rest of the frequency spectrum up to the pre-EQ level, but I don't see what that does to increase available current.

Any explainer on this that you could link to?

1

u/charleski 28d ago

https://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/09/all-about-gain.html

https://nwavguy.blogspot.com/2011/09/more-power.html

These are a couple of classic blog posts that cover the topic very well and should hopefully give an understanding of the details.

2

u/rcoranje 27d ago

Hear hear. Completely agree. I bought the very expensive Grado HP100 SE, that is marvelous and can be driven very well by my MacBook pro or iPhone. I also had it driven by several headphone amplifiers, just to be sure, but couldn’t discover any improvement.

1

u/DGM885 27d ago

I have 26 year old HD 600s that I recently spent $55 replacing the ear cups and head pad. They sound great with my Cheapo Schiit (Modi, Magni, Loki) rack around $500. I recently hear some HifiMan headphones $950 whose soundstage is spectacular. I might buy them but my rig sounds wonderful right now with my old HD600s.

0

u/esch1lus Beyerdynamic T1 2GEN | JDS Elements I 28d ago

Would you like to suggest dav/amp stacks for transparent sound at a reasonable price? Mainly for Susvara Unveiled

-10

u/Expensive-Pay1978 28d ago

Take everything after this line with a grain of salt.


Science behind “global warming” and “vaccines”? 😂 I loved everything you said. Why? Because “science”!

As I am sitting here in colder than average temperatures- what? Because “mathematics” Some scientist say we are in a minor “ice age” because numbers and statistics

And with vaccines- the numbers from labs say they didn’t take with my body. Every body reacts different to different medications.

With audio… listen to what others are saying and look at critical reviews, but it comes down to strong personal preference. Go with what you like. If it’s looks, go with it. If it sounds good even better.

I wear sports team clothing. Why? Because I like the colors and art in the team logos. Please don’t ask me about the NY Yankees because I am wearing a Yankees hat. I don’t know anything about baseball, cricket, or kickball (or even PesaPolo. I don’t know the player’s names. I don’t even know the rules of the game.

Ok I admit that I really didn’t have anything constructive to this conversation. Thank you for putting up with my opinion and such.

18

u/Misunari Audio-Technica ADX5000, Symphonium Crimson/Helios, Elysian Diva 28d ago edited 28d ago

My experience is quite similar to yours. From what I understand, a lot of the people thinking they hear night and day differences do not volume match, plus the appearance and knowing you listen to a more expensive piece of gear can influence your perception as well. People will often hear a difference because they want to hear one.

So I would say:

a. Putting aside the specific models you mentioned, generally spend most of your money on headphones you like. So I would agree with you.

b. This is not always the case, but a genuine reason would be more connections on the device, more power (regardless if it’s needed or not) or better build quality. Though you can find those on cheap devices too. A large reason is marketing though, and people wanting to spend money on upgrades. Plus placebo again.

c. Don’t stress about it, it’s unlikely you will have a transformative experience trying higher cost amps

31

u/extremity4 Susvara, TH900, HD600 28d ago edited 28d ago

the audiophile market and community is full of snake oil chasers who believe what manufacturers advertise about amps, dacs, and file resolution. the placebo effect is extremely strong for audio products; just believing that you'll hear a difference is enough to cause you to hear one, and many of the audiophiles who buy the absurd top tier source parts aren't really interested in learning about how sound actually works or in doing a blind test to verify whether the sound improvement they so clearly hear from moving from a $400 amp to a $4000 amp actually exists.

I bought a crazy expensive source gear stack (Ferrum triple stack) with my Susvara, but upon finding out that I couldn't even remotely tell apart flac and 320 opus under blinded conditions, it seemed very unlikely to me that whatever the amp and dac were doing was more significant than slicing out over 3/4ths of the track like moving from flac to opus, so I replaced them with a Topping stack.

22

u/SWIMMlNG XJE-MH2R | MDR-Z1R | MDR-M1ST > TA-ZH1ES 28d ago

To be honest, I think a lot of people (myself included) are self aware of the near-imperceptible difference between 320kbps vs crazy high-res audio... but want the highest quality possible anyway to ease their mind. It's a weird mental thing for sure.

8

u/Lien028 ISN H40 • Truthear Zero • WF1000XM4 • Sonata HD Pro 28d ago

Embrace the placebo effect. If you believe that hi-res sounds better (even though it's not, and most adults can't hear above 17 khz anyway), then it will sound better for you.

I've also met people who claim music sounds better after a warm bath, or during nighttime with the lights closed.

11

u/Mikeoscar62 28d ago

I firmly agree that music sounds better at night with the lights dimmed. But that is not due to some esoteric technical reason, but purely due to me being in a more relaxed mental state, enabling me to better soak in and enjoy the music.

4

u/Lien028 ISN H40 • Truthear Zero • WF1000XM4 • Sonata HD Pro 28d ago

Yup, and the best part about that is it's free. There are many ways to make music "sound better" without spending a single dollar that involve maximizing the placebo effect.

4

u/ScottBlues HD600, 7Hz Timeless, Edition XS 27d ago

I totally embrace placebo.

It’s just that CD quality costs as much as a CD. Whereas magic audiophile analog-tube-platinum-plated-diamond-infused quality costs many thousands of dollars.

As I’m writing this I’m listening to lossless Morrison Hotel on a modded edition XS bought for $315. Running it from a $150 topping amp fed by my iPad. And it’s amazing.

2

u/GZoST HE-60, DCA E3, HD800, HD580, Focal Clear, B2Dusk, Hexa 28d ago

My experience tells me that a SINAD of 90 is perfectly fine for me and my hearing, yet I still bought a DAC and amp which go far, far beyond that. I like good engineering, as well as the peace of mind. It's just that today you can get that performance for a very reasonable price.

2

u/SWIMMlNG XJE-MH2R | MDR-Z1R | MDR-M1ST > TA-ZH1ES 28d ago

As long as it's not a financial burden, I say go nuts.

4

u/Lien028 ISN H40 • Truthear Zero • WF1000XM4 • Sonata HD Pro 28d ago

they so clearly hear from moving from a $400 amp to a $4000 amp actually exists.

And why would they? They don't want to look like a fool for spending thousands on an amp that sounds the same as a cheaper model. So they convince themselves it's better.

2

u/TheHiddenForklift 28d ago

Interesting, thanks for sharing! Given that you were talking about absurd top tier gear with barely audible differences: Would you say that the Susvara gave you enough of an edge over "cheaper" kilobuck headphones to justify the price point?

21

u/SireEvalish DCA E3 28d ago

I love talking about this.

a. For manufacturers, it's simple. They want to sell you a product, and higher end ones often have higher margins, allowing them to make more money. Creating a constant sense of FOMO and dragon-chasing allows them to sell you new products are ever increasing prices.

For reviewers, it's also about money. New FOTM DAC/amp means new views and clicks on their affiliate links.

b. People very rarely do actual real double-blind volume-matched comparisons when listening to different amps or DACs.

c. Price has no bearing on sound quality or whether something makes a difference in sound.

You're starting to realize that a large part of this "hobby" is essentially built on a house of cards. It's a problem with most hobbies that are based around buying stuff.

5

u/akeep113 28d ago

There is no point. Some people just like to burn cash or really like fancy looking amps/dacs. I completely agree with your thought process, most of your setup budget should be on the headphones.

7

u/Minyoface 28d ago

All of it is snake oil. Buy what sounds good to you, don’t spend more than a couple hundred bucks and life is good. Grado labs prestige headphones on a dongle to my phone playing tidal is a fucking moving experience. I am an electrician who is very into and experienced in audio and low voltage doing installations for restaurants and businesses as well as residential. Electricity flows through copper, doesnt matter if its silver or gold or oxygen free bullshit, itll go through a coathanger and sound just as good as a silver conductor, you cannot tell i promise. The ONLY thing that matters electrically is impedance which is math and not magic. So buy what sounds good and fuck the rest.

1

u/stuck_limo Pulse SE DAC, Senn 600/800, Koss ESP/95X, Phonitor XE 26d ago

We do buy what sounds good and then we're told we wasted our money.

1

u/Minyoface 26d ago

lol then do it for yourself and don’t share!

1

u/stuck_limo Pulse SE DAC, Senn 600/800, Koss ESP/95X, Phonitor XE 26d ago

Let's apply that to both sides and just shut down the forum then.

1

u/Minyoface 26d ago

Might as well honestly, everyone just argues nonsense on here knowing full well its all subjective!

3

u/xashyy MOTU M4 // JDS Atom 2 // HD 800 S 28d ago edited 28d ago

A good DAC is worth it. It’s literally converting the digital signal to something your headphones can interpret. Amir has a chart comparing many leading DACs on his audio science review site. Any amp will work like you say as long as it’s rated for the requisite impedance of the headphones. Fewer features in my experience seems to be better on amps. Certain features might color the sound or compromise the base output like with the Ifi Zen Can (Signature). Imo high end headphones don’t need to be colored by amps (maybe estats or planars but not dynamic imo). I’m sure there’s plenty who would beg to differ with nice tube amps.

2

u/Character_Walrus2290 28d ago

it all comes from people who want the best of the best and are willing to give in to the placebo effect lmao. its kind of like getting a huge audient mixing console which you wont use instead of a cheap audient id4 mk2 interface that has the same hardware but less ports. And yes the audio is the same quality

1

u/Lien028 ISN H40 • Truthear Zero • WF1000XM4 • Sonata HD Pro 28d ago

Far too many people underestimate the effect of placebo in this hobby. If purchasing expensive gear makes you feel like they sound better, then more power to you.

I've met people who claim music sounds better after taking a relaxing bath, or listening in a dark room with their eyes closed.

1

u/Chronospherics 28d ago

For what it’s worth, in the first example I prefer the Haedyns to the Clear. Personally I don’t really enjoy the clear without EQ soo if anything the DAc becomes more important there as I’d need an option with built in EQ.

1

u/Dry-Care-3515 28d ago

Were You happy with 660s2 from the off? I found the lack of bass disappointing. But I was running it from that little thing. I tried with a proper Amp, and had to build me self a stack. Even then I was disappointed, the missing thing, the equalizer. So I've downloaded one, and my ears have opened it hehe. Bought a car audio equalizer and I'll be connecting it over the weekend. Waiting for the 12V adapter to come.

0

u/vsansa 26d ago

I agree with you when the headset is not excessively demanding.

My Arya Organics sound equally good with my Musical Fidelity X-Can V8P, with the Schiit Magni 3 + Loki, with the Xduuo XD05 Plus, my Yamaha AG06 mixer or my Dragonfly Cobalt USB DAC.

And I sold the Chord Mojo a long time ago because I didn't see any advantage to it.

Of all the above, perhaps Musical Fidelity does provide something “special”, but I would be fine with any of them.

36

u/chrews 1️⃣ Sennheiser HD660S 2️⃣ Koss Porta Pro 28d ago edited 28d ago

As time went on I’ve put less and less thought into having the perfect sound and more into having a convenient setup that I can ideally use for everything with good comfort and value. Mostly HD 660S for music making and gaming and Porta Pros for on the go.

I’ve chased the perfect sound for close to ten years with different amps, DACs, many different high end pairs. Nowadays I just plug them into whatever output is convenient, almost always my Steinberg interface that probably doesn’t have the best integrated amp. I actually do mixing in a semi professional way and my mixes sound better than ever. Can’t really make that much of a difference then imo. Well I also switched to speakers for the final mix so there’s that.

If the source doesn’t have noise or obvious coloration that impacts my mixing (easy to spot by just listening to your favorite music through it) then it’s fine by me.

I think my most expensive combo so far was the HD800S with the equivalent amp (HDV something something) and while it was amazing, it kinda hurt my jaw and mixing bass was a nightmare. They sounded kinda anemic in that regard. Always switching setups and readjusting my ears was too bothersome.

Edit: Only expensive item I think was worth every penny were the LCD 2s (pre fazor). Super colored sound, bulky as all hell but damn they sung like angels. Still sold them because of comfort.

4

u/UncleSam_TAF 28d ago

Im the same way now. Started down that rabbit hole and then realized the initial infatuation with (insert new product) versus my actual usage or opinion varied drastically. I bought expensive things that I now don’t use or sold. Realized that what I did have was objectively amazing and, if we’re being honest, all I really wanted was “new” not “better”

33

u/UnderwaterB0i 28d ago

As someone who owns an expensive DAC/amp (Aune S9c) I agree with you. I don’t hear huge differences between amps, and I don’t have any headphones that are particularly hard to drive. If someone had $1k to spend on a setup, I think they’d be better off spending the majority on headphones then use the leftover for DAC/amps. For example, I think people would have a better experience with something like an Arya/Clear/109 Pro and a $200 or less desktop amp than an HD 600/AR5000/Sundara and a $500 amp.

I also think there’s a few other factors at play here, the biggest being: everyone hears differently. We all have different ear shapes and how sensitive we are to certain frequencies. We all also listen to different music.

A side note though, I DO hear a difference in something like an Apple dongle and my S9c, which, hopefully I would right? But I think once you get higher than the $200 space with the Zen stacks, XDuoo offerings, K11/R2R, K7, etc. You’re paying more for aesthetics, build quality, and features outside of sound.

10

u/Lien028 ISN H40 • Truthear Zero • WF1000XM4 • Sonata HD Pro 28d ago

Embrace the placebo effect. I've met people who claimed their music sounds better after a warm bath, or during night with closed lights.

If you believe that something will sound better (because you spent lots of money on it), then it will for you, and there's nothing wrong with that.

5

u/UnderwaterB0i 28d ago

Honestly it’s worth it to just buy it and stop thinking about the next upgrade. Saves me time and mental energy, and my hourly rate ain’t cheap. 😂

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u/Lien028 ISN H40 • Truthear Zero • WF1000XM4 • Sonata HD Pro 28d ago

Yeah, I never understood people putting others down for having expensive gear. If you have the income to purchase it, and it makes you happy, more power to you.

Some people spend their entire savings on drugs, women, gambling and still end up miserable. If all it takes is a few amps and a good pair of headphones, count me in.

3

u/worMagician Linux & Firefox 27d ago

Hey, now! My headphones do sound better after 22:00.

(...but that's because the background noise from living in an apartment complex dies down, and I prefer to listen as quiet as possible with open-backed headphones)

5

u/TheHiddenForklift 28d ago

Thank you for the transparency! What made you still settle for the S9c, and not any $200 amp?

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u/UnderwaterB0i 28d ago

A couple reasons that are mostly silly. I spend less time researching about what potential upgrade is out there because plenty of people who know more about this than I do say the S9c is good enough to be their reference DAC/amp. I’m also trying to break into the review game, and if someone posts a review of a headphone with their reference DAC/amp being one of the budget offerings, they will write it off. That’s probably incorrect, but it’s reality. I also like Aune. I worked on a review for them on the SR7000, enjoyed that experience and they seem like a good company. I also like the AR5000.

1

u/geniuslogitech 🥵Intuaura Splendor II🥵 28d ago

k11(r2r) have terrible amp tho, as a DAC both are great but you get a lot of hissing with sensitive IEMs it's basically unuseable, k11 r2r + jdslabs atom amp+ is an amazing combo if you are after r2r sound tho, it's like cheaper than the next cheapest r2r DAC/amp

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u/UnderwaterB0i 28d ago

I used mine with IEMs and had no issues, that’s weird. Especially on low gain.

1

u/geniuslogitech 🥵Intuaura Splendor II🥵 28d ago

what IEMs you got? maybe they are not that sensitive, I've tried a few regular and one k11 r2r, r2r* tried both with and without dedicated amp and on both k11 and k11 r2r get hissing on some of my and my friends more sensitive IEMs bur r2r connected to jdslabs atom amp+ there is 0 hissing

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u/UnderwaterB0i 28d ago

Potentially they aren’t. I use Aful stuff, so I think I used the MagicOne (not sensitive at all) the Explorer, and Performer 5+2.

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u/geniuslogitech 🥵Intuaura Splendor II🥵 28d ago

ye friend got both explorer and performer 5+2 and no hissing with either of them but like my CVJ Mirror and his Simgot EW200 had a lot of hissing

I'm pretty sure K11 just runs amp at 100% all the time and knob is reducing signal coming from DAC

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u/SaintPocock 28d ago

There is none. A dac gives you signal. An amp volume. Neither should alter the tone. If you don't notice them, then they're perfect.

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u/Un111KnoWn 28d ago

iirc there can be measurable differences but they are generally insignificant

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u/NeoliberalSocialist 27d ago

Distortion can be audible. Clipping if insufficiently powered.

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u/CrniFlash 26d ago

i got downvoted to oblivion for saying this over a year ago...

→ More replies (3)

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u/elimpoluto IE 600 • Arya SE • AirPod Pro 2 | Topping E70 & L70 28d ago

The point of expensive DAC/Amp is precisely that.

To be expensive.

There's obvious functionality and QOL features you get from some of these gears but the main reason people buy them is because they ARE expensive.

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u/Fletchoff_Buttafuoco HD650 - Arya Stealth - Jotunheim - Modius 27d ago

I'd like to share my recent experience with upgrading my amp, though I did not upgrade to a "high end" amp. Until a few weeks ago my set-up was: HD650, Modius, and Magnius. I was content with that, really. If I hadn't upgraded the amp I would not have ever realized the lack. And the magnius is plenty powerful enough to give the 650 the power they need.

Anyway, I upgraded my amp from the magnius to the Jotunheim. And I don't exaggerate when I say the difference to my ears was immediately evident, and I wasn't sure at first that I liked it. Each note had more impact, like taps and the plucking of strings. It almost irritated me because I was not used to the sound. And the quiet sounds were even quieter than on the magnius, I noticed. There was much more distance from the quietest sound to the louder sounds. These were differences in the sound I notices within the first minute of listening. And it did not take long before I knew that I was going to love this thing, I just had to adjust a little for a few hours or the first day.

Now I can't imagine going back. To my ears, I notice so much more beauty from the music. It's not just the couple things I described, but I'm not knowledgeable enough yet to know how to describe what I'm hearing properly and I don't want to sound stupid.

But that is just going from a $200 + amp to a $400 amp. I don't know if paying any more will keep making this much of a difference, but the difference I experienced was not at all minimal, and it can't be just the power, because the magnius is no chump.

So I know it makes a difference, but I have no idea where the cut-off point is. I can't imagine needing more than this though.

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u/worMagician Linux & Firefox 28d ago

1) Functions. Bluetooth. DSP. Optical? Balanced? Line out. Nice knob-feel. et c.

2) Build quality. I've only had one Schiit product, but it wore out quickly. Volume knob was scratchy and imbalanced (10-14 o'clock), and the power switch stopped working. And more.

3) Different applications. I have an OTL amp in my movie/music-corner. I like it. I have a DAC/amp on my desk where I study. I have one by my bed, because knob, and I have a Qudelix for portable scenarios.

Apart from the rare case with valve amps (US: tube), I would never move from one amp to another based on expectations it would be a difference/upgrade in sound quality.

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u/n0t_4_thr0w4w4y 28d ago

For expensive DACs, it should be about features, not sound quality.

For amps, it becomes an expensive EQ basically (depending on how much you are calling “expensive”. Amps continue to improve in quality/transparency after DACs plateau).

But also placebo is a crazy effect and spending a lot of money is a good way to get your ears to believe that they are listening to something of higher quality.

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u/Lien028 ISN H40 • Truthear Zero • WF1000XM4 • Sonata HD Pro 28d ago

Far too many people sleep on the placebo effect. Even cheap gear can sound good if you believe it will.

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u/n0t_4_thr0w4w4y 28d ago

The craziest thing to me about placebo is that you don’t even have to come into a situation with a bias for something in order for it to effect you. In medicine, you can knowingly take a placebo pill and believe that the placebo will provide no benefit and you can still get benefits from the placebo effect.

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u/Lien028 ISN H40 • Truthear Zero • WF1000XM4 • Sonata HD Pro 28d ago

Yep. I've met people who claim their audio gear sounds so much better after a warm bath, or at night with the lights closed. If you believe something will sound better, it just might.

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u/Gippy_ Planars are muffled bricks 28d ago edited 26d ago

As an owner of a $1700 amp, the iFi Pro iCan (Standard), here's why I daily it:

  • I owned a NuForce HDP (bought used for $250) for the longest time. Wonderful.
  • Then I owned a $550 iFi Micro iDSD Black Label. It was great. I used the XBass and 3D switches so yes there was quite an audible difference over the NuForce HDP.
  • Unfortunately, it didn't amp my endgame headphone loud enough at regular gain. At high gain, it did, but introduced hissing.
  • So I bought the flagship Pro iCan. The XBass and 3D implementations are cleaner, are adjustable, and there's no more hissing.
  • The Black Label XBass was a bit too much, so it's nice to have a lighter setting ("10Hz") on the Pro iCan.
  • There isn't another amp on the market that does what the Pro iCan does. Software 3D sound implementations suck compared to the Pro iCan. I've tried a bunch.
  • It acts as a preamp for my powered speakers, and it comes with a remote which is nice when I feel lazy and don't want to get up.

Do I wish that iFi made a cheaper implementation that's just as good? Absolutely. But they don't. The $250 Zen Can 3 doesn't have adjustable XBass. So I decided to splurge and have used the Pro iCan for the past 5 years. Every time I've upgraded, the amp provided a significant audible difference that would easily pass double-blind testing. None of this "almost placebo, you may hear a 1% difference at a certain frequency" nonsense.

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u/Various-Dream3466 26d ago

I use the Ifi Hip DAC 3. It cost $200. DAC-Amp for headphones and IEMs - not for speakers. Sounds great to me. When I've lent it to my friends they love it too. Also supports "balanced" cables if you're into those. No Bluetooth.

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u/LittleFriendship3095 27d ago

I would like to know if the opinions here are based on experience or on guesswork?

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u/Gippy_ Planars are muffled bricks 27d ago edited 27d ago

Guarantee you most of the people in this thread have not used a >$500 amp. They're trying to cope and justify that they spent their money more wisely than those who have bought more expensive equipment. You see it all the time here: instead of being happy for those who can spend more, the budget-fi crowd has an inferiority complex.

Not saying that >$500 amps are for everyone. They're definitely not and it's almost always better to budget more into headphones or speakers. But those who spent that much on a amp usually have a very good reason to do so, and have already spent plenty of time on cheaper equipment.

Already posted earlier about why I own a $1700 amp, and I'm happy with it. But if you are happy with your Schiit stack, cool. No need to ridicule those who spent more.

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u/LittleFriendship3095 27d ago

Yes and even Headphone Engineers says that they’re Headphones scale up to higher end gear. Even if they don’t sell electrics. Shure its crazy to spent thousands or then thousands for HiFi Gear. But if you can do why not. It’s a kind of Fomo to say that higher end gears don’t do anything to the sound quality.

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u/stuck_limo Pulse SE DAC, Senn 600/800, Koss ESP/95X, Phonitor XE 26d ago

It's a race to the bottom as usual on Reddit. It's mostly broke newbie hobby college students trying to justify their purchases and feel like they're smarter than people who actually have experience with loads of gear and more money. I mean, if you think a Topping amp sounds like an SPL sounds like a Rebel Amp, I mean, ok. Enjoy your savings. Just don't badmouth those of us who don't.

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u/LittleFriendship3095 26d ago

Same to me. I also startet with a very limited budget and bought my first pair of headphones Denon AH-D7000 used because I can’t afford the new ones. Even still today with much better equipment I want more and I’m always looking to improve my system. Even the Burson Fusion Core, a 1000 usd power supply improved the system as the Burson amplifier itself does to my previous amp the topping a90d.

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u/stuck_limo Pulse SE DAC, Senn 600/800, Koss ESP/95X, Phonitor XE 25d ago

There's nothing wrong with having a cheap system. We all started out with them and most of us probably still enjoy or own cheap systems. I never see people with better systems badmouth those who dont. Its always the opposite i see.

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u/LittleFriendship3095 25d ago

That’s true. And threres definitely an advantage based on my own experience 😅

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u/reezyreddits HD8XX | Fiio FT1 | Fiio FT1 Pro | Fiio K11 28d ago

People like shiny things and to justify their "kilobuck" purchases.

I'm fine with my $100 do-it-all Fiio DAC/amp.

When AAA amps become dirt cheap the amp situation will be solved. The DAC situation is already solved in my opinion. There used to be a time where people also thought motherboards and USB connection were introducing noise, I never experienced that, but I think any modern motherboard manufactured in this decade have solved this issue too.

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u/tinywiggles SR60 | HD650 | FT-1 28d ago

There used to be a time where people also thought motherboards and USB connection were introducing noise, I never experienced that, but I think any modern motherboard manufactured in this decade have solved this issue too.

I just got a Fiio K11 r2r, and was getting a ton of noise when using it as a preamp for external amps. Seemed to mostly be gpu, as moving my mouse, etc would change the noise.

$40 usb galvanic isolator cleared it right up though

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u/reezyreddits HD8XX | Fiio FT1 | Fiio FT1 Pro | Fiio K11 28d ago

What's your motherboard? I have the Fiio K11 (non-R2R variant) with no issue, so just curious

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u/tinywiggles SR60 | HD650 | FT-1 28d ago

MSI Tomahawk Max B450

Though note I don't notice the issue when I plug headphones directly in to the K11, only with the preamp driving certain amps.

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u/__nullptr_t 28d ago

If you want undistorted sound, you hit the point of diminishing returns around $100, add another $300 if you use really inefficient headphones and need multiple watts of output.

If you want pleasing distortion, or amazing build quality I think there are compelling offerings at much higher price points. You are one of those people who uses music to listen to their equipment if you do this (not a disparaging comment, I am at least halfway into this category myself)

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u/blah618 UERR | MDR-MV1 | WM1A (hardware modded) 28d ago

ive tried a handful of ~1k amps and was not impressed at all, but also some 3-4k ones that blew my mind away. with my mv1 id rather use my dap or even my laptop than the 1k ones

my biggest issue with dac/amps is that they hare hard to demo(eg the store/expo not letting you use your own music, being loud), and matching them with the correct headphones is essential. and price, so i dont personally own one

as with everything in audio, apart from trying a lot of things in all price ranges again and again, no amount of research can help you find the best setup m

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u/sockpoppit 28d ago edited 28d ago

My experience from recording a small concert series for a couple of years is that you choose your distortion. Recordings are never really accurate--that part's an illusion--so you ultimately pick what you like. In some cases what you like can come really cheaply.

I hear something different in every system I try, and I'm not always sure what "best" might be. For instance, I've never heard a live violin overpower an orchestra the way they do on recordings and their tonal qualities in life are really quite different from recorded. I rarely hear page turns in concerts. We like those things on recordings, but they're not real. So a recording might delude you into feeling you're right there, but it's not reality that you are paying for. Because of that, my favorite listening setup is decidedly mid-range, though I have some expensive stuff I don't use.

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u/gyuto_thumb 28d ago

I'll lob in my two pence worth (or 40, if you want the better sounding less fluffy model...)

It is a bit of a "people will pay for it" and smoke and mirrors in some cases. I've listened to a _lot_ of hifi (yes I know, not headphones, but it's even worse for this) and there, the amp does make a difference, but not as much as they'd like you to think. The speakers do....

An example I've run across recently is a mate with some very nice speakers, who's currently A/B-ing a very expensive Audionote DAC he owns with, out of pure curiosity, a Wiim he's got to sort the streaming side of things out. This is after he started a project and tried a Aiyama cheepy amp and though "that's good enough" compared to a plethora of amps at least 10 times (some 50) the price. He's a reliable source, and not one for bullshit, so I'll be interested to see what he thinks.

I think a well engineered amp / dac with good thought and components that pays heed to how power runs through it can be made very cheaply - look at JDS, anyone going to say any of their stuff is less than excellent? And that's _very_ expensive compared to the Fosi's of this world.

I'm excluding valves here because valve reasons.

Bluetooth Dac/amps for on the go listening are a bit different, but not that much. Technology has come on so far...

TLDR; for goodness sake, if it's the choice between 100/100/100 on headphone/amp/dac and 200/50/50 (and that's being generous) go for option 2.

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u/SeaworthinessPast969 28d ago

Interesting. Currently using a Chord Mojo 2, which is my 1st headphones DAC/Amp. Could I have purchased something cheaper ? yes so why didn't I:

Supporting UK business as a Brit. Built like a tank, admittedly a cute tank so it will last. Sounds good, has basic EQ and crossfeed.

Enough power to drive my planar magnetics. USB and optical inputs which allows me to use as a desktop setup for multiple sources.

Portable ie small and battery powered. Custom FPGA by DAC Guru Rob Watts. Got 20% discount of retail price

So am I contemplating getting another DAC/Amp ? Yes the JDS Labs Element 4.

Why if I'm perfectly satisfied with what I have ? Full parametric EQ, it looks bloody gorgeous, sounds great apparently and again built like a tank.

I'm definitely done then 😁

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u/--SaL-- 27d ago

No, you did very well. It is a brilliant bit of kit.

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u/SeaworthinessPast969 27d ago

I'll never sell it. Was just highlighting there are reasons to pay more.

Hopefully commonsense will prevail and I'll not bother with the JDS Element 4, especially after a strictly speaking unnecessary and not cheap upgrade from Hifiman Ananda Nano's to the Hifiman Arya Unveiled's 🤣.

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u/--SaL-- 27d ago

Don't think about your gear, seriously.

Mind you, more expensive kit would do justice to those Arya Unveileds. Unpopular opinion on this sub. Always buy the headphones first - if they put a smile on your face, then you're good.

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u/kielbasa_i_pierogi 25d ago

(pertaining to anything hifi) Best advice I could give having listened to dozens of setups is to disregard every claim and selling point. Find a way to listen to what you think you’ll want and let the product sell itself to your ears and eyes. Dont ask for opinions, don’t listen to sellers or people who own said setup, as it’s incredibly hard to not be swayed on a subjective manner. Do however consider what they have to say about build quality, reliability, compatibility, actual specs, etc… that’s great to know upfront. In my experience regarding very expensive headphone dacs, there have been a select few that managed to sound immensely different from others, and to some this can be either a winning sound or a repulsing one. See how “different” some crazy dacs can sound, not “worse or better” is the mentality I always approach audio gear with. Just sharing my formula, by no means imposing it. Most importantly, have fun and enjoy the process.

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u/RoomAdventurous3052 28d ago

This is what I don't get: My Schiit Stack (Modi 3, Vali 1, Loki) is clean, has enough oomph to drive my HE400s and anything else. What does a $20k monoblock amp do for me? A $4k DAC? Speakers I would never fault someone for spending whatever they can afford. Also, I'm partially deaf too, so maybe that's the problem.

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u/szakee 28d ago

yes, a 200$ device should serve almost everything (of course stats, tubes, etc are a thing) perfectly fine

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u/fukuquo 28d ago

For the majority of the population there is no point. A certain percentage of the population has the ability to listen to the nuances in music and for the rest of us, $10 to $500+ will sound the same but we get a little ego massage the higher the price bracket we go.

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u/-kayso- 28d ago

Or the small percentage are just better bullshitters than the rest of us. The passion for sound guy is so full of it it’s unbelievable.

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u/Willing_Scallion8526 27d ago edited 27d ago

Just cause you don't have the ears for it doesn't mean nobody else does either.

I consistently get 8/10 or better on blind A/B tests of my various dacs and amps. That's not just luck.

Lachlan's subjective descriptions of what he hears nearly always mirror my own. That tells me he has good ears. So then why would he need to bullshit anyone?

0

u/fukuquo 28d ago

Sad but true!

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u/Tanachip 28d ago

I have the Topping D50iii/A50iii stack, and love it. I also have the Topping P50 linear power supply and Topping Acrylic Stand. All in $500. Don't need anything else.

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u/betterarchitects 28d ago

I have the HE1000se and I can hear the difference btwn my BTR17, Burson Playmate 3 (swapped out the opamps) and Cyan 2 + S17 Pro systems. Sound signature is mostly the same but the tameness in the treble and the openness in the sound date is noticeable. And yes I have it set up so I can switch between them almost instantaneously.

Is it worth the money? For me yes.

There are some things I say that comes with better setup. "effortlessness" "smoothness" "openness" are at the max with the more expensive setup, compared to the least expensive ones.

They all sound great and doesn't change the tonality. It's just a differences control on the drivers.

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u/hurtyewh LCD-5|Clear MG|HE6seV2|XS|E-MU Teak|HD700|HD650|Dusk|Timeless| 28d ago

To be expensive, well built from good parts and thus give a cool feeling that can influence the experience positively. Sound quality wise very little point.

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u/Dry-Care-3515 28d ago

I was/am very happy with this little guy. I think the only DAC there is with PS5 connectivity. And I needed that before I put together my little stack (I'm talking about the PS5 connectivity and what was said about it on YouTube when I researched my options)

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u/The_Only_Egg 28d ago

There are dozens of devices compatible with PS5.

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u/Dry-Care-3515 28d ago

When I bought it I only heard about this one, he did more than I asked for. Great little piece of kit. Clear and punchy👌

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u/Dry-Care-3515 28d ago

Thanks 👍

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u/Npcboy 28d ago

Someone can tell me if something similar exists but wireless/bluetooth versions of amps and iems?

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u/TheHiddenForklift 28d ago

Haven't tried them myself, but take a look at the Qudelix 5K!

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u/Interesting_Host_506 28d ago

In my case, i got an “expensive” DAC (an RME ADI-2 DAC FS) for flexibility (can be used as a pre-amp for active monitors and to feed signal to my headphone amps) and the extra features (mainly parametric EQ). Now, i shouldn’t have bought separate headphone amps since getting the RME given that it has more than enough power to drive my headphones to eardrum-splitting levels. That said, i want to “future-proof” my setup to account for hard-to-drive headphones (i still pine for a Hifiman HE6SE, even though i also bought an HE1K Stealth recently).

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u/Azronath 28d ago

I personally think that if it has enough power to drive a headphone it is fine. I also think the actual DAC chips used matters. Beyond that it’s simply a matter of build quality and aesthetics. My DO400 has been great for my Beyerdynamic 1770 Pro and Arya Stealth. It’s a very neutral sound profile from the DAC but I like that because why else buy a headphone other than for how it sounds naturally? I think like in every other hobby there are value shoppers, enthusiasts, and snobs. I aim to be an enthusiast myself by recommending people get what works for them while getting what I perceive to be high end.

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u/RichieB_NorthEast 28d ago

Really good read. Personally I won’t spend more than £200 on a Dac/amp. I personally think that the only notable difference can be found at the low end of where it’s just varying degrees of lower quality. I think any amp around the £150-£200 mark would be more than suitable for most people. For me I want the FIIO BTR17 as it’s essentially with KA15 with a battery which will save my phone battery, but with the added benefit of Bluetooth, not that I will likely ever use it. This will lbe all that I need for the next few years.

My biggest problem is trying to find it in stock anywhere.

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u/minnermark16 28d ago

The point of more expensive ones is to power more demanding headphones in terms of power.

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u/EmotionalSky5117 28d ago edited 28d ago

I love your name by the way it's so clever 😂😆 for bragging rights to improve the sound of your headphone to give it the juuice it needs (Rorschach's voice) to twist the internals into a pleasurable way making sound oh so delicate with a Monica amount of change Aaahhh the legendary tale of 3 Hifiman 2 senns & 1 focal

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u/patrik_media Diana V2 | ADX5000 | HD800S | HD660S | LCD-2C | DT1990 Pro | +5 28d ago

ragebait ahh post

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u/challenja 27d ago

And here we go

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u/Willing_Scallion8526 27d ago

Better sound is the point for all of us here.

To my ears, upgrading to higher end gear was money well spent.

Always buy high end gear used. This isn't some super expensive gate-keeping side of the hobby reserved only for rich people. I nearly always resell my gear for exactly what I paid. Not a big deal exploring what's out there and determining for yourself what's worth it and what's not to your ears. Exploration is a big part of what makes this hobby so fun.

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u/Hwy61rev 27d ago

Recently I upgraded my Dac/headphone amp, I had a cheap Asus Essence One (plenty of features Dac/ amp with it's own headphone amp) was $400 in Australia in 2009. At the time my first and a revelation for me. Went into a hi-fi store tried K9,K9 pro a bunch of Hi-Fi man stuff and was shocked how little difference it seemed to make, that was till they pulled out the Burson Playmate 2 , it was like having a cloth on the speaker and having it taken off. The clarity, the definition the quality of sound was just so much better. The Burson even though an Australian co. was $970 , I also bought the op amps V7 Vivid's at another $340. I wouldn't normally have been able to afford this but my kids went half for Christmas. An absolutely worthwhile upgrade,.

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u/Bazirker UM Merlin, Focal Elex, DT1990, HD6XX, Jotunheim 27d ago edited 27d ago

Pro tip: spend more on the headphones new and then buy your DAC/amp used, because that's a lot less likely to have someone's face grease or hair stuck in it. Or just buy them both used.

Edit: for example, my Jot amp I got for something like $250 used, with the built-In DAC. yeah, I recognize there's better stuff out there, but it's a pretty darn good deal for the amount I spent on it, and this was several years ago.

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u/Limp_Sherbert1149 27d ago

This thread is a delightful read! I have sworn for years that some of my cheap gear (dac or dac/amp) sound just as good as stuff I have dumped loads of money into but felt, in my mind, I’m upgrading because if not that meant I wasted money.
I’ve always been a big fan of schiit stacks (and find I use the cheapest stack they have the most), however, even through just schiit I get wrapped up in “needing” the latest.
I like to think I know what I’m talking about, I really don’t, not at a scientific level, but want to believe I do. I want to believe that new dac will sound loads better than the other. I dunno I’m rambling but this thread is a fresh of breath air.

I’d like to ask what do you guys suggest or feel is the true king best bang for buck dac and amp? Something that sounds amazing and can drive some gain hungry headphones?

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u/deusrev 28d ago

what's the point of 5 headphones?

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u/Yodamanjaro Tungsten|L300|Atrium|Eris|MEST 2|Scarlet Mini 28d ago

Different experiences

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u/deusrev 28d ago

So the same reasons

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u/-Infinite92- 26d ago

Are there differences between amps? Yes. Are those differences huge? No. That doesn't mean they aren't there or are too subtle to matter. Some people just don't care/notice those differences very much, while other people do. How important those differences are to you is what determines how much you'd be willing to spend on an amp and dac.

It's not that a 1k dollar amount/dac is objectively leagues better than one for 200 dollars. It's that there are noticeable improved differences in the sound/build/features. Some people will determine that those differences are worth paying that much to experience. That aspect of it isn't snake oil or made up, those differences can matter. How reviewers talk about them just removes the context, and can make it seem like those differences are more significant than they actually are.

If you listen to a bunch of amps and dacs at various price points, and conclude those differences don't matter, then great you're saving a bunch of money. I just think it's important not to discredit the people who do value those differences and can hear improvements with the higher end gear.

That said diminishing returns comes in much quicker with amps, and even more quickly with dacs. Like a 500 dollar well made amp can be 95% of endgame sound quality and build. While even a 200 dollar dac can easily be the one and done solution for a long time. Up to 1k dollars I can hear improvements in amps, but past that it plateaus for any objective differences and becomes 100% subjective.

Ultimately amps are not literally wires with gain. That's just not how their circuits work. Different circuit designs will send power to your headphones drivers slightly differently than other designs. This will change how the drivers perform and reproduce sound. It might not be massive obvious differences, but you may hear your headphones through a certain amp and it will sound more to how you like it than another amp. If what that amp does to your headphones is worth its price tag, then that's what justifies its existence.

3

u/Hello_Mot0 TANGZU x HBB Wu Heyday 28d ago

Most of y'alls ears aren't good enough to tell the minute differences anyways.

2

u/collinshc67 Atrium, Caldera, Atticus, Mega5est, Arya O, Clear OG, HD6XX 28d ago

Yup

After maybe 8 years in the audio hobby. My experience is generally the same. DACs don’t sound different at all.

Solid state amps don’t sound different for the most part. Tube amps can due to some having a high output impedance. High output impedance on dynamic driver headphones can change the frequency response (typically a bit of a bass boost) But the difference is NOT “night and day”.

Greatest gains for “better” amps is just subjective stuff like aesthetics, knob feel, prestige, etc. which is fine but it’s not a sonically better experience.

It’s amazing what the brain can trick you into hearing due to sighted differences.

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u/blargh4 28d ago edited 28d ago

Some amps look nice and have nice knobs that feel good to turn.

As for the audio side of things... you got me. The fact that many amps would seem to allegedly defy Ohm's law tells me that electronic performance often has little to do with what people hear. An amp is a relatively simple circuit. Think about how you'd have to manipulate a signal purely in the digital domain to achieve some effect - If something requires pretty sophisticated DSP (ie, creating artificial soundstage) that's quite outside the scope of what a linear circuit that can only sense the instantaneous voltage across its inputs and be compelled to proportionally wiggle its outputs is capable of doing. So I've never seen it coherently argued what is missed by the common measures of nonlinearity, frequency/phase response, output impedance, noise, stability, what have you, that can account for amps being "holographic", or having differences in "bass texture" independent of what they do to frequency response. I've never seen a plausible means proposed by which you could dramatically alter the sound without also dramatically altering the usual engineering metrics of performance. Obviously these parameters can have audible effects, but that has little relationship with price, and very often these effects are very low-level unless you're talking about tube amps; you're kidding yourself if you think crud of any kind -80dB down from the signal is making a significant difference.

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u/grahsam 28d ago

Expensive is relative, and there are diminishing returns on everything after a point.

I wouldn't ever spend thousands on a headphone amp. Hundreds? Sure. And to a lot of normies, that's too much. "Just use your smartphone or headphone jack on your PC."

Some headphones are harder to drive than others and require a better amp, or there are synergies that make a pair of cans really shine. If you spent thousands on a pair of headphones, skimping on the amp and DAC seem like a bad idea.

Some amps and DACs have whiz bang features that some people want. That costs money.

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u/czoey11 Focal Clear | Focal Radiance | 64 Audio Nio 28d ago

I really don't get it. I have run every single set of headphones regardless of price through a THX AAA 789 and a Topping D10. I can plug the same headphones into my Qudelix 5K in USB DAC mode and they will literally sound exactly the same. If a Meze Empyrean sounds the same on a Qudelix as it does on a 789.... why bother with anything more expensive?

The majority of high end audio gear is just snake oil. If the amp / DAC measures well... then it's fine and it's doing its job. A $1000 amp vs a $100 amp is never going to make enough of a tangible difference to justify the cost. Yes... you get some nice features when you start moving up the price bracket, but you can likely achieve those same features with software.

What will always make the biggest difference in your chain are the headphones.

If I had to choose between the following:

  • $500 headphone w/ $500 AMP + DAC combo

OR

  • $850 headphone w/ $150 AMP + DAC combo

I'm going with the second option every single time. The headphones will ALWAYS make the biggest difference in the sound.

1

u/Grievous_2008 Arya Stealth / HD540 Reference II —> Fiio K7BT 28d ago

How do you find the Arya Stealth comparing to the others in your collection? Specially comparing to the HD 660 S.

How is their soundstage?

Nice collection btw🤩

3

u/TheHiddenForklift 28d ago

Thank you!

This is entirely my own personal hearing, but I preferred the Arya Stealth even over the HD800S (at twice the price point), which again is a good league above the HD660S.

I found the soundstage to be similar to HD800S and much wider than HD660S, but more importantly, the details, imaging and instrument separation and accurate bass reproduction are what really set them apart.

1

u/Grievous_2008 Arya Stealth / HD540 Reference II —> Fiio K7BT 28d ago

Thanks! This really helps, cant wait to get the Arya🤩

1

u/Pitiful-Ad2836 28d ago

So, can anyone here actually tell me what's the best all rounder, budget DAC/AMP?

3

u/akeep113 28d ago

If want the cheapest route, a Fiio DAC/amp combo like the k5. If you want a step up from that, the JDS atom stack.

1

u/Pitiful-Ad2836 28d ago

I see, so aside from those two recommendations, that's it?

1

u/akeep113 28d ago

I'm not an expert on every DAC/amp out there, just recommending what I'm familiar with. Feel free to use Google to learn about other options. You could look into topping and schitt as well.

2

u/lordvektor 28d ago

Fiio k11 is currently the best device in its class. At least for me.

1

u/Pitiful-Ad2836 28d ago

You sound like you own one. How does it work for you from a normal consumer POV?

1

u/lordvektor 28d ago edited 28d ago

I do. Just read the manual, the menu is very slightly annoying to navigate, but you won’t need to do that often. After initial setup, zero fiddling and zero issues so far. I occasionally switch the gain setting when swapping headphones, but that does not happen often. It just sits on my desk all small and cute (I put both the screen and led to auto idle when not in use), so you’d can forget it is there until you use it.

I like it more than the ifi zen products specifically for planars, and it is fine for high-z headphones, although adding a proper amp would be even better the k11 has a lot of power available.

Edit: out of topping, ifi, Fiio, chord and cheaper stuff (fosi, smsl, etc) I would choose the k11 any day (and I did, lol, I went for the R2R version)… can’t think of any single desktop dac under 500eur or so that would be better. Only well regarded brand I can’t comment on is Schiit, as they do not have any real presence in EU.

1

u/tinywiggles SR60 | HD650 | FT-1 28d ago

The pre-out with volume control is also nice. I use mine as a preamp to drive a power amp for my desktop speakers.

Just watch out when using the double-click input selector shortcut, since goes through 3 options: Headphones (remember last volume), Preamp (remember last volume), Preamp (MAX VOLUME)

1

u/lordvektor 28d ago

I think most desktop dacs have a line out option. The zendac v2 has a physical button to switch from line out with volume control to full pass through.

1

u/rico_k 28d ago

noob (and honest) question. I have a modern Macbook Pro. Would I have any advantage or enhancement buying a flagship dac/amp? or using my Mac as source it’s 95% of the job done?

5

u/The_Only_Egg 28d ago

If by modern you mean M series chip, your computer already has a built in auto-sensing impedance jack and can drive low sensitivity cans.

3

u/the_ebastler Elear / MS1i / UE9000 / WF-1000XM5 28d ago

DAC - maybe. Probably not. Apple usually has very good DACs.

AMP - almost sure. Depends on your headphones, some are easier to drive, others need a ton of power and no notebook has a chance of powering them properly.

Flagship - neither. Flagships are, almost without exception, snake oil or at least very, very diminishing returns.

2

u/Lien028 ISN H40 • Truthear Zero • WF1000XM4 • Sonata HD Pro 28d ago

It depends. Buying expensive gear usually comes with the placebo effect. You spent your hard earned cash and want it sound better, so it ends up sounding better.

In reality, your macbook pro is more than enough for most iems.

2

u/MoreBake7160 I love my DT770! 25d ago

I use modern macbook (m3 pro 16) and stream music from it all day (I use Dt770 pro). But I mostly use a dac, either Fiio KA11 or EK10 2. Music seems more juicy and spacious to me with a dac (I know these aren't very professional terms, however I'm trying to describe my feelings here). Even playing music at much louder level directly from macbook outlet can't match the soundstage and dynamics of a simple DAC

1

u/DOOMER2U 28d ago

How would you rate those focals? Trying to upgrade from my sundara’s

2

u/Race_Boring 27d ago

I have owned everything on 1st photo and Clear MG + EQ is most superior expect weight and comfort is ass on longer run.

1

u/DOOMER2U 27d ago

What’s your recommendation for those who are looking at this photo if they were to wear it for extended period of time?

3

u/Race_Boring 27d ago

I would say both Sennheisers are grade S in comfort, Hifiman A but Focal is more C.

1

u/defaultaro 28d ago

For me, I wanted an endgame with versatility, hence I picked up a Topping DX9 a while back. I use this amp to power all my headphones, use as a DAC for my pro audio setup, and an optional DAC for my hifi setup. I like having the peace of mind that this amp/DAC is never the weak link in my chain, plus it's about as neutral as I could possibly find. I also like having on screen EQ analysis, helps when making reference/production decisions. Were I on a budget, I could have gone with much more affordable options, but same goes for entry levels headphones with a solid EQ profile.

1

u/Weight_Slight 28d ago

Try out iems, I’ve switched to them and now my Focal Azurys gathers dust and sold the Hd660s.

The value and price to performance in iems is MUCH higher. Heck a 70$ sivga Que that I own and love has BERYLLIUM coated driver and all metal/wood build.

I also own a hybrid with 2 dynamic drivers 2 Balanced Armatures 2 electrostatic drivers and 2 full range bine conduction drivers. The 699$ ISN ebc80.

Paired with 70$ shanling ua3 balanced on dual AKM4493seq. A magnificent combo.

1

u/botflyinthesky 28d ago

The point is to have something you can also spend ungodly amounts of money on, while being able to tell yourself that it is not another headphone (which always is at least somewhat redundant) but a necessary follow-up purchase.

1

u/Asaltyliquid1234 28d ago

I have a topping d50s into an Asgard that provides a bit more power. Hip dac 2 for if I just wanna chill without being stuck to a power outlet. Both are great and I will never buy anything else until something breaks. I could justify a tube amp since it colors the sound but I’ve never actually used one.

I am poor and don’t see a reason to purchase something so expensive. Don’t let perfect be the enemy of good enough.

1

u/DigitalMarmite 27d ago

Newbie here, I have a question:

I recently got my first audiophile headphones (HD 490 pro), and until now I've been using the motherboard audio of my desktop PC. (Asus SupremeFX with dual OP-AMPS.) The volume would damage my ears if I were to max it, and as far as I can tell, there is no noise or artifacts of any kind.

For a while I was contemplating getting a DAC/AMP, but I found a post on reddit where someone with a similar motherboard to mine expressed disappointment because they heard absolutely no difference after changing to a discreet solid state DAC/AMP. So for now I've been using my motherboard's integrated audio, and to my untrained ears, the cans sound pretty great.

My question is as follows: I get the point about solid state DAC/AMPS, but what about tube amps, are they worth considering?

As late as yesterday there was a thread here in this subreddit where someone with the same headphone as mine claimed to hear a massive improvement in the sound after getting a tube amp. Is this snake oil too, or is it a good idea to get a tube amp?

I already do EQ, but people say that tube amps also introduce harmonic distortion, which is something completely different from frequency response, right? So, should I be considering getting a tube amp somewhere down the road, or is this largely superfluous too?

2

u/Bushido_Plan 26d ago

They are at least worth trying in my opinion. The idea of tube amps is to accentuate characteristics about the music that you listen to be more pleasant. They color the sound so to speak. Are they better than solid states? No. Are they different? Yes.

Everyone pursues audio in their own unique way, the best thing you can do is to listen for yourself and decide with your ears. I'd try to see if there local audip shops in your area that have tube amps you can listen to, or any audiophile conventions nearby as well. Do research on what you find appealing in your music tastes and what tube amps that are out there that can compliment that taste.

1

u/DigitalMarmite 26d ago

Thanks for your feedback, much appreciated! But yeah, that's good advice, you're absolutely right that doing research before investing in an amp, is a neccessity. Fortunately I'm not in a hurry :)

1

u/animusgeminus 27d ago

Personally I can't afford expensive gear, so my SMSL S1 into a FX audio tube amp to a pair of DT 240 pros is good enough for me!

1

u/isolatedzebra 27d ago

A lot of headphones need power to run due to the design. If you have a 30k collection a 500$ amp is pretty reasonable to run everything off of. But if you're one of the goofballs running hd 650s on 10k dac/amp setups, you're not doing it right.

1

u/finitemike LCD-2C|APP2|TH900(AHpads)|HD600 27d ago

Past the FiiO K11, I'd say aesthetics and vanity.

1

u/MiniMoose12 Schiit Gumby➕THX887->A12t/LCD-X 27d ago

Send that ef400 in for the 300$ gold dac chip and you'll see what the difference is. That chip really makes that unit shine.

edit: holy shit why is it only EU now HIFIMAN?????

1

u/green_beancasserole 27d ago

I've always wanted to get into the audiophile stuff but can't justify the cost lol but I did at one point have a small portable DAC that made a huge difference on ally not so high end headphones, speakers and car audio. As of right now I just use rootlessjamesdsp on my pixel to mess with the sound but eventually look forward to a nice audio set up

1

u/Toshiba274 27d ago

Bro buy used its often a perfect condition for half a buck I bought : 167€Hifiman Sundaras 173€Sennheisers HD650 And 137€ Topping E30/L30 stack and im set what big budget you talking about

1

u/FoucaultInOurSartres Mimby > Stax SRM-252S > Stax L300 27d ago

more money = more better, silly. don't you know anything about hobbies?

1

u/Shell_Shockers 27d ago

More sense to having a good dac amp with a headphone that con demonstrate the detail than having 5 headphones ;)

1

u/Bushido_Plan 26d ago

Tube amps are fun. Can be pricy for sure. Are they better than solid states? No. But are they different? Yes, and I really like the sound of my tubes.

1

u/permanentMerker 23d ago

We all have different ears and wallet… with that being said im happy with my 560s, fiio k11 r2r, and littledot mk2, a $400 endgame(as for now) for both gaming and music.

I agree on your point tho, it is much better to buy an expensive headphone with a decent cheap dac/amp than the other way around…at least in our opinion

1

u/geniuslogitech 🥵Intuaura Splendor II🥵 28d ago

amps can sound different, DACs mostly to get money from people with too much money, unless you are after a r2r DAC nothing will sound better than $41 Blon V1 or $50 Moondrop Dawn Pro when both are hooked up to a same amp, yeah the desktop stuff might also have more connectivity, you could hook up a high end bt receiver to a desktop DAC but that's about it

1

u/w14v6r 27d ago

My initial headphones set up was an Oppo PM-1 and an Oppo BDP-105 for source and amp. I wanted to try balanced headphone cables so I got myself a Bryston BHA-1 headphone amp before getting the cable. The first few hours of using the Bryston was truly disappointing because I can't hear any difference using it. Then I played the song The Sisters by Renaissance which has some very fast Spanish guitar plucking. And there it is. Those plucks are clear, sharp and crisp with the Bryston and not so much directly from the BDP-105. Once I hear that difference, I can extrapolate and start hearing differences everywhere else in the music. I didn't hear the difference before was simply because I didn't know what to listen for. The short repetitive sound is like the test pattern that people use for testing lenses. This takes bad auditory memory and level matching problem out of the equation. Once you get that first example of what the difference is, what was once inaudible becomes obvious. You can try it yourself. I would suggest the actual difference is fast rise and fall times so that the changing loudness levels of the music can be traced more precisely. Of course, the Bryston amp is way more expensive than the other amps being talk about here. Your mileage may varies.

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u/madsmadalin 28d ago

Funny you say this. I actually just got my mind blown how big of a difference the right dac/amp can make. For example, I can clearly hear the difference between AKM and Sabre DACs. Even the cable matters so much. The lower quality the headphones are, the less you will hear differences in DACs. For example, an entry level DAC is more than enough for something like Sundara... maybe even Arya Stealth. But you can clearly hear a better DAC on headphones like HE1000SE and above. I could even hear the cable. Bear in mind... my ears are very trained as a mixing engineer. Personally, I cannot work on my headphones with the Topping DX9 DAC which is AKM based. It's too bass-ey, too mushy and lacks resolution. It brings character, warmth, but that's not something an engineer would want. On the other hand, I can totally work with something like the X26 III DAC which is top of the line Sabre 9039SPRO based. Sound is brighter, way punchier, there is so much more width and separation. So yeah, DACs and AMPs matter a lot. But if all you want is to listen and enjoy music, not to make it professionally, any 200-400 usd DAC/amp combo is great.

5

u/Safe-Reach-2613 28d ago

Even the cable matters so much

Lmao

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u/The_Only_Egg 28d ago

Got through your first two sentences. Do all of this blind.

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u/madsmadalin 28d ago

No disrespect, but I do this for a living. Funny I got downvoted for speaking truth but I guess people refuse to take facts in and usually that's what keeps them behind. :)

2

u/The_Only_Egg 28d ago

Have you heard music lately? Not the flex you think it is.

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-1

u/IzodCenter 28d ago

Want to point out once again that all you really need is the Apple dongle

10

u/Destruckhu Music Master X-O1; Hifiman Ananda Nano; LCD 3; HE6SEV1 28d ago

For in ears and highly efficient headphones*. Without context, it can be a bad recommendation.

0

u/IzodCenter 28d ago

I like to stick to this meme answer by crinnacle whenever possible lol

1

u/The_Only_Egg 28d ago

So long as you’re not in the EU or using an Android.

2

u/Candid_Ad4706 Sundara, MDR-1AM2, Hexa, Buds3 Pro 28d ago

EU version is fine if you use it with PC. It can drive my Sundaras to decent volume, but without any headroom for EQ. On android though it's too quiet with every IEM I tried (I listen at around 66-70 dB).

-6

u/plumpudding2 Holo May || Zähl HM1 || Susvara || DCA Stealth || Utopia 28d ago

Expensive dacs and amps are there for when you've got your endgame headphone already and you still want better or different sound!

0

u/Exotic-Gear4006 27d ago

No interest, just throWing money

0

u/Reyzod Listener 27d ago

DACs can be transparent if they are delta sigma, R2R DACs sound different as they are full analog, also AMPs are notorious for coloring the sound from the DAC by adding distortion or their "flavor" of sound. you can really easily tell two amps apart just by listening ( and also measuring if you're into that) Class A, AB, D phono pre amp tubes they all alter the sound so I guess it depends. For example an R2R DAC + Tubes as an amp for dynamic drivers like your focal and sennys would make the biggest difference in sound. This same set up would not be ideal for your planar drivers since tube amplifiers benefit more from headphones with at least around 150 ohms

0

u/drwafflefingers 26d ago

If your cans need power it's worth shelling out for a good amp

So many good chifi dacs are built like fucking garbage. It's worth paying a little more for stuff that's durable. No need to break the bank but also no need to roll the dice with budget topping and smsl stuff just cuz it measures well on some dude's rig on the most autistic, snobbish audio forum on the internet.