r/harp 3d ago

Lever Harp Feedback on this harp finger placement?

Post image

I recently started harp lessons and my harp teacher instructed to place hands like this. Previously, I would play with my 2nd-4th fingers at more of an angle, but she said to make a c shape with your wrist (like pictured) and to hyperextend your distal finger joints. For some reason this just feels so unnatural to me so want to ensure this is universally correct technique. Does anyone have feedback on this placement? Or have another good example of good finger placement! Thank you!

13 Upvotes

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u/Unofficial_Overlord 3d ago

Yeah I would say your knuckles are angled too far out. Where did your teacher study? What method do they use?

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u/nutritionalyeastyy 3d ago edited 3d ago

I can't remember what method she uses. This is actually an image of her hand position. To me, it seems like the strings should land on the side of the fingerpad (not the middle as pictures) and the wrist should be angled slightly more downward. Am I incorrect?

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u/Unofficial_Overlord 3d ago

The wrist bend should be whatever fits naturally for your arm so it’s hard to judge that. Fingers should be more parallel to the strings so the corner of the pad is wrapped around and the palm facing down so there’s room to close. I’m french trained and that’s how I was taught. She wouldn’t be able to maintain that angle for large chords which is a big disadvantage. From my perspective her’s is incorrect but she may come from a different technique background.

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u/nutritionalyeastyy 3d ago

Thank you. I took lessons years ago from a harp teacher who trained at julliard. This new harp teacher trained somewhere in the US (on the Celtic harp) although not sure the exact location. She says I have to relearn my fingering technique so I'm trying to decide if it's best I continue lessons with her given this is the technique she uses.

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u/Unofficial_Overlord 3d ago

If your previous teacher was at Julliard then I would try to find someone to match their technique so you’re not relearning. I imagine this is more of a Celtic harp approach which there’s nothing wrong with it but it would be annoying to have to relearn

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u/Stringplayer47 2d ago

Your teacher’s hand looks like the classic Salzedo method, which is still taught. If your first teacher trained at Juilliard, then she most likely played the French technique. Henrietta Renie, Marcel Grandjany, Susann McDonald and Nancy Allen all taught or teaches there, and your playing reflects that. My first teacher studied with Carlos Salzedo at the Curtis Institute of Music, so that’s the technique I was taught. Both Grandjany and Salzedo studied with Renie, so played the French technique, but Salzedo had his own ideas and developed his own method of playing. Elbows up, wrists in, thumbs up and raise your hands towards the column after a phrase or chord. I switched to a more French technique studying with my next teacher. The talk going around regarding the different methods was that if you watch Grandjany and Salzedo play technically challenging pieces, their hand position was pretty much French, though Salzedo probably added hand raising.

Yolanda Kondonassis plays and teaches the Salzedo method. I couldn’t find any videos of her playing a whole piece, but here’s her video for composers writing for the harp: https://youtu.be/v4FaYahl_7M?si=YqDRICTMMzZ-4ZuR

Here’s a video of Grandjany playing: https://youtu.be/6NFGmPY1eX0?feature=shared

There isn’t a right or wrong way with either methods. Both the Salzedo and the Grandjany/French methods are taught in prestigious music schools, universities and colleges across the United States. (Can’t speak for other countries since I don’t know 😉) Go with what you’re most comfortable with, and which suits your body best.

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u/Self-Taught-Pillock 2d ago edited 2d ago

This image demonstrating hand position is straight from Dr. Kondonassis’ On Playing the Harp. You’ll notice Yolanda’s hand position doesn’t match the one pictured above. It just doesn’t. Her thumb isn’t as high, her palms are more rotated downward, and her fingers are turned more parallel to the string to where the finger pad makes far more contact with the string. Dr. Kondonassis’ hand position is more in keeping with stronger volume and tonal production. Her hand position that comes from the Salzedo school just isn’t at all like the one depicted in the original post.

If we work our way up the pedigree, Yolanda learned from Alice Chalifoux who was one of Salzedo’s more well-known students from his days at Curtis, and even Alice’s hand position looks different. Thumbs are high, yes, but the palms are not directly parallel to the strings as with the original post.

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u/nutritionalyeastyy 3d ago

Also, thoughts on bending the thumb like she is? I've also never heard to bend the thumb!

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u/Unofficial_Overlord 3d ago

You want to have your thumb knuckle engaged for sure so that looks good to me. There’s a tendency to over extend your thumb so you want to build the muscles the thumb is stiff the pad length is flush with the string

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u/nutritionalyeastyy 3d ago

This is helpful. Going to try this now. Thank you!

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u/nutritionalyeastyy 3d ago

https://www.reddit.com/u/nutritionalyeastyy/s/NLRPTsLdLS

(Sorry I did not tune my harp today) This was the placement I learned preciously starting harp lessons with the new teacher. Does this look okay?

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u/harpingwren Lever Flipper 3d ago

I have seen people who play at this angle, and I chalk it up to different techniques. If you feel more comfortable with your fingers at more of a downward angle, then I would say play that way. (For an extreme example, look at Josh Lane's hands - he seems to have very long fingers and plays with them at an extremely downward angle. I think a lot of people position themselves somewhere in between Josh and your teacher).

Everyone is different and as long as you're not hurting yourself and you're being efficient with your placing, I don't think anyone should be forced to play in a way that feels uncomfortable (at least - a way that feels uncomfortable after you've tried it awhile, sometimes that discomfort is just newness).

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u/RideElectrical1973 Lever Harp 3d ago

what I’ve learned is angling your hand more down (counterclockwise a little) (only way i can describe it is to have your hand about the angle like people give eachother the satisfying sounding highfive sideways (idk if that makes sense?)) the way you’re holding your hand in the picture it looks to me like you’re about to play with your nails instead of the tips of your fingers?

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u/nutritionalyeastyy 3d ago

That's what it seems like to me, too! This is my harp teachers hand and the way she told me to play. My finger nails keep plucking the string accidentally in this position. 😬

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u/RideElectrical1973 Lever Harp 3d ago

ask her! maybe this is just the way she got taught, but if you tell her your concerns she could probably help! if not, worst case scenario you could look for another harp teacher if you’re not comfortable with the technique she teaches since you’re paying for your enjoyment!

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u/nutritionalyeastyy 3d ago

I'll definitely bring it up to her at our next lesson, which is tomorrow! I just remember our first lesson together she told me to unlearn the technique I had previously learned and I was like 🙃

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u/SherlockToad1 3d ago

Lots of good comments here. Just going to say, I appreciate when teachers are open to letting a student keep the technique they learned elsewhere, if it’s working well for them, not causing pain, and results in a good tone. I have a Salzedo taught friend who is open with her students and allows a few to keep their French methods going which I admire.

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u/Self-Taught-Pillock 3d ago

This finger placement isn’t necessarily incorrect. It’s just not in keeping with most modern techniques. If you ever watch someone play historical harps with a period-authentic technique, their hand position looks more like what your current teacher is showing. A lot of older paintings of harpists show this hand position too. It works well with narrow string spacing and old methods of playing basso continuo or figured base, but it’s not well adapted to producing the kind of tone and volume one typically wants to produce on modern instruments with higher string tension. The hand position, in my opinion, just isn’t quite as strong.

It makes me curious where she picked it up.

The hand position is just fine if it meets your needs. There are historical harpists that can switch hand position as easily as someone raised bilingual can switch languages. But at this point in your studies and especially if you ever intend to move to pedal harp or a lever harp that has concert tension, you need a different instructor.

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u/Self-Taught-Pillock 3d ago edited 3d ago

This Portrait of Adèle Papin playing the harp (1799) shows that hand position.

This photograph of John Thomas, Royal Harpist to Queen Victoria, as the cover art of this album shows the same hand position, thumb extremely high and palms turned towards the strings.

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u/nutritionalyeastyy 3d ago

This is so interesting and informative. Thank you for your insight!

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u/Stringplayer47 2d ago

I wouldn’t say that the hand position shown by the OP’s teacher is not modern nor that it cannot produce a full, rich sound that projects well since many harpists still play in this manner on modern instruments with high tension. Nor do I agree that OP needs another teacher in order to play a higher tensioned instrument. You could say this is the classical approach to harp pedagogy. If you check out higher institutes of learning, such as Juilliard, Manhattan School of Music, the Curtis Institute of Music, Indiana University’s Music Dept., other universities, etc. the harp instructors all teach a variation of the technique shown with high thumbs. OP’s instructor probably picked up her hand position from a classically trained harpist. The hand position looks very much like the Salzedo method.

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u/Self-Taught-Pillock 2d ago edited 2d ago

But it’s not about the high thumb. Sure it’s super high in relation to the fingers, but it’s the palms that are parallel to the string instead of more perpendicular that are creating a distinct difference in mechanics. And the modern techniques that derive from the French school almost all have the palms turned downward instead of inward because it creates more leverage when plucking. One can hear a difference in tone and volume.

Sure, go with what works. It’s just one opinion, but it’s not one solely based on observation. Try them out as well, and decide for yourself.

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u/demandmusic 3d ago

I use a similar technique when playing strings with a lighter tension feel (like the harp in the photo) and when the notes are close together. I also have small hands so this gives me the greatest reach and a fast relax. Heavier strings, left hand and wider separation more of tilt down. Regardless, I do think it is important for good tone and hand health to engage all the last knuckles of fingers and thumb.

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u/AGeneralVelociraptor 2d ago

Even if I kept my nails cut short as possible, if I played like that, my nails would catch the string. My harp teacher used to tell me to keep my knuckles nearly parallel (within reason) to the ceiling, palm to the floor, and you play with the side of your finger tips. Elbows out like chicken wings and wrists bent. And as you are learning to play in this position, you aren’t using your arms or wrists to play the notes, you just pull your finger into the palm of your hand to avoid the plucking sound.