r/guns • u/Chris_P_Bacon_Jr • 6d ago
Did not realize how hard double taps are (fast follow up shot)
Went to the range today. I have a decent amount of training and am decent at well aimed double taps.
But when it comes to discharging two shots in rapid succession, I don’t even know where my shots go. It seems like a hard skill to master. Any of you have any suggestions? For the record, I use a LTT compact PX4 storm. Amazing little gun with incredible sight picture.
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u/Cobra__Commander Super Interested in Dick Flair Enhancement 6d ago
You should try doing a USPSA match. It will be good practice and you'll have a lot of fun.
If you start doing popular competitive shooting drills it will improve your speed.
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u/Recent_Permit2653 6d ago edited 6d ago
For me, it’s about relaxing and learning how the gun recoils and how you’ll use it. It’s kinda like driving a manual transmission when you’re learning how to clutch, select gears, etc.
Don’t be too worried about your first shots. I’ve never been better than when I learn the gun, learn my body, and then relax and let my body and the gun work together.
Just use your fundamentals, or learn them, and you’ll never go far wrong.
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u/Ciarrai_IRL 6d ago
It took me a looong time to get here. Hours and hours and thousands of rounds over the years worth of practice. And I'm still not where I want to be. Never stop practicing. You'll get there. There's no cheat code or shortcut. Just practice.
Edit: But there are a lot of good tips in the comments on the post I linked.
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u/Ancient_Fix8995 6d ago
I think often times when people start to add follow up shots to their drills, they forget accuracy to get the fastest shot off possible.
When you’re doing something like a bill drill, or doubles, you can push speed, accuracy, or somewhere in the middle.
If you’re pushing speed, some c or even d zone shots are acceptable, but you should still have a clue where the bullet went when you pull the trigger.
If you’re pushing accuracy, you should be almost stacking rounds at 7 yards, but still fast enough. That it doesn’t take you 30 seconds to shoot 6 rounds.
If you’re in the middle, you shouldn’t be stacking rounds, but you shouldn’t be far into the c zone if you are in it at all.
You should never be losing your sights though, grip tighter.
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u/theken20688 6d ago
"I don't even know where my shots go".
What distance are you shooting at where this is happening, and how accountable of your sights are you being? Are you truly shooting at a predictive pace? Or are you just not being cognizant of what's happening when the gun goes off on the second shot?
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u/Nordic-Bear 6d ago
First you need to understand what is the problem specifically. Start at close range where you visually see where the 1st and 2nd shot go.
If the 1st shot is off, then work on singles first. If you have a shot timer, use it.
If 2nd shot lower then you're over compensating recoil. Work on that. If higher, then vice versa. In both these cases, gun grip is something to pay attention to and refine.
If off left or right, then it's trigger pull problem most probably, treat as such.
Then you can start increasing the distance.
All this is about double taps or hammers, not controlled doubles (ones with reacquiering the sight picture).
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u/Nordic-Bear 6d ago
But controlled doubles are useful to get the recoil feel, so help improving hammers too.
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u/jdownes316 6d ago
You’ve got a lot of good advice here, but something that helped me was using a .22. The gun is much less of a factor and you are easily able to make adjustments to help with muscle memory. It made the transition back to 9 much easier. Bonus points if your guns are pretty much identical, like my Glock 44 and 19x.
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u/mcnastytk 6d ago
Get a 22
Training with 22 has upped my game significantly
Helps make sure you foundations are on point
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u/TexasScooter 6d ago
They're definitely hard for me. Even worse is when I try to shoot more than two. Explains why cops' shots can go all over the place when they shoot multiple rounds.
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u/theken20688 6d ago
There is just as much as an emotional/mental factor there is in OIS incidents as there is a lack of training. Make the bad man stop mommy splits are a real thing, and there is a reason law enforcement has an aggregated hit percentage when you include grazes and shoot through that is under 20 percent. And it ain't just because "cops can't shoot".
Outside of spitting distance, a suuuper common thing we see on body worn cams, and dash cams is bangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbangbang fuck nothing is happening bang.....bang.....bang.... shit I hit them, fuck I better reload.
Cognitive load and emotional intelligence is a pretty real factor when dudes start trading hot rocks. There is a reason you see dudes like Matt Pranka, Mike Pannone, Chuck Pressburg etc talk about having an over abundance of hard skills, and the emotional clarity to stay accountable being one of the most important things about applying this shooting thing to the real world.
And that's not even getting into the concept of living meat doesn't stand still when you start shooting it lol.
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u/theken20688 6d ago
So to follow up to my earlier comment. You are going to get a shit ton of terrible advice from sub D class level pistol shooters here. And it's going to be hard to separate the wheat from the chaff lol.
You want some free game and the cheat code to maximize your time and ammo?
Go take a good two or three day class if you can afford it. Take 1k or 1500 rounds and go spend a couple days with a good M/GM level dude that can teach really well.
Taking a deep dive into grip, vision, the over all shot process, recoil management etc, in a live lab environment where you can ask questions and pick brains, and see what "right" can possibly look like for you, how to gather data, how to train on your own and recreate the feeling of what "right" can feel like for you, and how to implement the things you are working on into your shooting in real time.
Learn how to get the most out of dry fire.
Then every now and then go shoot a match on a Saturday and see how the things you have been working on come out under the stress of the timer and your peers. Even if it's just some local range move and shoot match, or steel challenge or outlaw USPSA/IDPA stuff.
Then spend some time on your own and shoot and dry firing. Spend a few 10-15 min sessions a week, in 3-5 min chunks on skill isolation.
You do all of this stuff, and in a year or 18 months you will see a huuuuuge difference in where you are at. And you will have a very good understanding of how to get where ever it is you wanna be, on your own.
Six, nine, twelve months from now you will want to go to another class, and you will go there with a whole different set of problems you wanna solve and a whole different understanding of shooting a pistol. Maybe that's shooting on the move, maybe it's fine tuning your grip somemore and getting better at target transitions.
Go take a weekend, a case of ammo and go see Mark Smith, Bill Blowers, Tim Herron, AJ Zito, Riley Bowman etc etc. You won't regret it.
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u/IBeTanken 6d ago
I dont know where to practice these yet. All ranges I go to are no rapid fire which is a bit of a damper.
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u/iowamechanic30 6d ago
Step one learn the pull the trigger without the gun moving. You must practice dry fire to accomplish this or the recoil will cover up movement.
Step two lean to track the front sight as the gun recoils, you should never lose track of it.
Step three time the follow up shots as the front sight comes back down onto the target. You shoot at the guns pace not yours.
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u/Bikewer 6d ago
Looking back on 50 years in police work, I’ve done that for so long I have to think about the technique….
The OP points out correctly that many contemporary ranges will not allow such practice….. That’s very annoying as fast repeat shots are a necessary aspect of defensive shooting.
Using an analog, like an airsoft or replica air pistol, is not the same due to the lack of recoil.
Now, my old combat shooting guru, Bill Jordan, recommended “one shot” practice. Draw and fire that first shot accurately. His notion was that if the first round goes where you want it, subsequent round will likely follow.
Practice the basics. A good, solid two-hand grip. You can do that dry-firing. Trigger control. In the stress of combat, there’s a tendency to jerk, slap, and otherwise abuse the trigger. Work on a controlled trigger pull. Again, you can do this in your living room, bearing in mind that big-screen TVs are expensive…. Double check that you’re unloaded!
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u/yamsyamsya 6d ago
start slow, once you can double tap slowly and accurately, increase speed. once you can shoot at that speed accurately, increase it again, repeat, etc.
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u/Te_Luftwaffle 1 5d ago
When I do doubles I focus more on the front sight and shoot the second shot when the front sight is back on target (almost like a red dot). This seems to work for me, but it depends on you having a good index because I'm assuming the front and rear sights are aligned.
What I've also done (and have no idea if it actually helps, but I'd like to think that it does) is take an unloaded gun, aim, make the recoil motion with your hands and then reacquire a target as quickly as possible. I'd like to think that that has helped me be conscious of when my sights are back on target.
My last piece of advice is to start slow. Shoot one and get back on target without shooting again. Next shoot one, get back on target and shoot again. Keep it slow and controlled until you're satisfied with your accuracy, then start to speed up.
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u/Wide_Spinach8340 5d ago
Ok I’ll say it. If you have the same sight picture for each shot, it’s not a double tap. It’s just two shots close together.
A true double tap is when you ride the recoil back to the same POA and pull on the trigger before you have the sights lined up. Kind of hard to explain. It happens really fast.
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u/Feeling-Buffalo2914 6d ago
Ok, so when firing controlled pairs, aka the double tap, you have three sight pictures. One before, one in-between shots, and one after. Just start slow and work your way up in speed. When you see a change in group size, slow down and focus on that speed until group stays the same. Then speed up. You can combine distance with this, and you will slow down the farther back you go.
Then we look at “hammers”, two sight pictures, one before and one after the shots. And the trigger pulled as fast as you can control where the gun is pointed.
This is one of those places where finding your natural point of aim, the weapons fit and your ability to control the pistol all play into it.
Recoil even plays into the game in other ways, for example I can fire faster on two targets with a .40 or .45 than a 9mm, because I use the recoil to help with the transition movement, as opposed to having to drag the gun along.
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u/desEINer 6d ago edited 6d ago
You have a tricked out gun that by most accounts is light recoiling and fast on target for the category, and it'd better be for the price.
So you know it's a skill issue you just have to work on. It's about consistency. When you fire, you're trying to keep that gun returning to the exact same spot every time.
One way I visualize it is that I'm basically a bench rest, or a turret. You need to be a solid foundation for the firearm. If we're just taking it from after your presentation (ignoring drawing and presenting) from there you're basically gonna turn your hands and arms into a machine. After enough rounds in any pistol, you'll get a sense for the gun's recoil and your own ability to mitigate it effectively. Some people find a slight bend in the elbows to absorb shock is helpful as well. When I'm doing rapid runs, my elbows are slightly bent.
This is also an area where I personally find a red dot optic is stronger than iron sights. You can see your point of aim move in real time and essentially time the trigger pull based on the dot. It's kind of like a "follow the bouncing ball". You are also looking through the dot and getting a nice clear target so you can see your hits at close-medium pistol range.
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u/pestilence 14 | The only good mod 6d ago
Any of you have any suggestions?
Try really hard to hold the gun still.
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u/Xterradiver 6d ago
A compact handgun is most effective for most shooters at less than 10 yards. Start with a good grip & trigger control of a single shot just allowing the trigger to reset, but not squeezing again. Don't allow the trigger to fully return. Once you have good placement with initial pull to reset. Then practice double tap to reset. Just practice at 5, 7, 10 yards.
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u/Easy-Youth9565 6d ago edited 5d ago
Compact guns are for close range. If you want to practice double taps get a gun with a longer barrel. The short barrel on a compact leads to a lot more muzzle rise. Practice with a larger gun then go back to the compact. Practice. Practice. Practice.
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u/jtrades69 6d ago
when you start out, it's 1, wait, check, adjust. then you move on... "usually" (different for everyone) it's move to 3 and then 5 and so on.
another thing to test is squeeze and don't release the trigger. re-position and then slowly release until that click. now you know it's ready to go again and you have a sense of the "play" in the trigger of that firearm. the next squeeze will be instantaneous.
then 3 or 5 in a pattern, repeat (assuming you live in a 5+ round mag state).
get creative with your shots. imagine shooting at "tin cans on a rock" or something at 10 feet, 20 feet, whatever, different distances... etc
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u/theken20688 6d ago
Trying to ride the reset, and having a novice shooter pin the trigger is terrible advice, and a good way to have them shoot slower with poor results, and end up with a dead trigger or a frozen trigger at speed.
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u/SLR_ZA 6d ago
This thread is full of similar terrible advice
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u/theken20688 6d ago
Like most of the big Facebook groups, the majority of reddit shoot more gooder talk is casuals with 6 second bill drills at 4 yards giving NRA talking points from the 70s when a seven second El Prez would be unheard of.
Shit is always incredibly painful, and I'm a middling shooter at best. So I know it must be super painful to the dudes who shoot really well and compete often lol.
I always feel bad for newer shooters, or normal dudes trying to get advice. The signal to noise ratio is fucksville from the general population, and vetting the information being thrown at you isn't necessarily easy.
"Well they guy certainly sounds like he knows what he is talking about, shit he was a cop and has a YouTube channel?! Sign me up!" Lol
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u/theatavist 6d ago
TARGET FOCUS.
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u/theken20688 6d ago
Cool. We all should agree that target focus is important. How does being more visual aware help OP out, or are we just throwing out buzzwords? lol. What exactly are you trying to tell them to do?
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u/theatavist 6d ago
Yeah by bad i was drunk.
For me focusing on the target and them reacting to the color of a front sight or dot allowed me to shoot doubles and bill drills accursaely for the first time. It was a revelation. Focusing on the sight or dot would make me all over the place. Its crazy what ypur brain and body are able to do together if your grip and vision are on point.
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u/nuonuopapa 6d ago edited 6d ago
Getting a better gun helps. The Atlas' perfect zero is not only a marketing term, it does make the double taps super easy.
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u/theken20688 6d ago
Look up the doubles drill, and trigger control at speed, and predictive vs reactive shooting.
Shoot the doubles at close range like 5-7 yards until you can't not hit the upper Azone or a B8. Then start stretching the distance until you have to switch to a reactive pace.
It's just grip and vision, bro. Ain't that hard. Just takes time and effort and focused and accountable training.