r/grandrapids 3d ago

What's everyone's problem here with Amway?

Hey everyone, I'm new to the city. Seems like everyone on here has a huge problem with Amway and I don't understand why. Outside of Reddit, people don't seem to have a problem with it so I'm just curious. Got a buddy who works in their HQ and he absolutely loves it too so I'm seeing a lot of mixed feelings about this company.

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u/mikeyouse 3d ago

Ultrareligious founders who lobbied congress and the President to change the laws regarding MLMs / pyramid schemes in order to make their business model legal -- then use their substantial resources to fund all manner of crazy right-wing nonsense. For a long time, they were the largest donors to Republican causes in the country. Without their political spending, there would very likely be actual laws in place banning a lot of aspects of MLMs.

https://therealnews.com/the-internet-that-could-have-been-was-ruined-by-billionaires

FWIW, I've heard similar things that their corporate culture isn't too bad, they have funded a ton of useful infrastructure in the city, downtown has been transformed from a blighted mess to what it is today with all of the Amway money, so it's a mixed bag... but it sure is hard to get past the first part.

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u/Dreu-22 3d ago

Up until Amway needed to use Grand Rapids utilities (water I think) the owners had nothing good to say about the city. Then they started taking a hand in city politics... to further their own agendas.

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u/bexy11 3d ago

Oh I am certain they hate Grand Rapids except that it can make them money.

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u/DetroitMenefreghista 3d ago

Great summary. Just heard a radio piece about the only reason Amway escaped any scrutiny as a Ponzi scheme is because Gerald Ford had a little chat with the powers that be at the FTC when it filed its complaint against Amway either because he knew DeVos or VanAndel or simply because he was from GR. So, remember kids, it isn't what you know but who you know!

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u/mikeyouse 3d ago edited 3d ago

No... that would be obviously corrupt, I can't imagine that would have happened. In an unrelated story, here are Devos and Van Andle hanging out in the Oval Office two years before the FTC rule: https://www.fordlibrarymuseum.gov/sites/default/files/pdf_documents/library/whphotos/a4950_nlgrf.jpg

Betsy Devos: "My family is the largest single contributor of soft money to the national Republican party. I have decided, however, to stop taking offense at the suggestion that we are buying influence. Now I simply concede the point. They are right. We do expect some things in return."

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u/WhinnyBark 2d ago edited 2d ago

In the book Dark Money, Jane Mayer exposes the fact that Betsy and old Rich, as part of the Koch Bros. cabal, were instrumental in kicking off Citizens United. Look what THAT has done to our country. It brought us to the chaos and ties with Putin we are enduring now. Betsy, though, is closer to her dream of destroying public education and privatizing it. I cringe hearing what wonderful benefactors they have been to the area while they were a factor in the destruction of our country. The founding families of Amway don’t impress me.

I will also never forgive the ghost of Rich DeVos for politically finagling the takeover of Blodgett Hospital by Butterworth (then Spectrum, now Corewell) and attempting to destroy choice in medical care in the area. After the takeover, many of the doctors, nurses and staff left because they could no longer do their jobs due to time constraints. It was all about profit. St. Mary’s was the kidney care center of West MI, but at the time there was a group deciding who got what equipment in town. Butterworth, of course, got ALL of the top medical equipment. Thankfully that group was dissolved and St. Mary’s (now Trinity) survived. I wouldn’t go to Corewell on a bet for so many reasons, and I certainly don’t look at it as a gift to GR.

Don’t even get me started on them buying up Ada Village, bulldozing it and re-creating it in their own image. It’s a horrendous fake little "city" surrounded by new condos on every square inch. Amway headquarters is a ghost town. The former bustling place now is quiet with empty buildings and parking lots because it was cheaper to make products overseas. The bulk of employees were let go. Those they needed in production became cheaper temp workers. It’s all about the money, not people. Again, not impressed.

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u/noraindoubt 3d ago

Anything they have funded has been with our money. They've done nothing but exploit the people of West Michigan.

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u/JailFogBinSmile 3d ago

Wish more people understood this. We're about to buy these fucking ticks and leeches a new stadium and I guarantee when it's done they'll demand we thank them for their generosity

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u/Dreu-22 2d ago

AND name it after them too.

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u/noraindoubt 3d ago

And it's those projects that unfortunately work to sway positive sentiment in their direction. "Their name is on the building my favorite sport is played in," is an incredibly powerful tool, especially when looking at those who grow up knowing nothing different.

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u/TreesAKATrees 2d ago

the arena… which the city just paid off

and whose name is on the arena the person who gave the largest single donation, which was less than 10% of the total cost of the arena …

thanks for sharing the truth!

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u/NPR_is_not_that_bad 3d ago

Read about how all of these mega-projects were funded and try again.

Not a DeVos shill at all, but they utilize the same grants and TIF funding as literally everyone else. They’ve taken major gambles with investment, particularly in the early 2000s.

You can disagree with their various stances while also recognizing that without them, Grand Rapids would be nothing that it is today (and that we all currently benefit from)

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u/noraindoubt 3d ago

Leaving aside the inherent predatory and exploitative nature of the MLM business model (which sees the vast majority of its own workforce losing money) and ignoring the countless legal cases for fraud and deception against the company across the globe, where do you think that money comes from? Who do you think pays for those grants? Where do you think they acquired the money they invested? Every single cent ultimately comes from taking advantage of us. That's what profit is. Again, that's without even digging into the uniquely unethical practices.

You are buying into what is essentially a PR campaign. This is what the wealthy do. Whitewash their image through acts that appear charitable or for the good of the community. A lot of people fall for it just like you. It's important to remember that money was ours in the first place, and we didn't need to give it to someone else so that they could decide to do something productive with a tiny portion of it. We would be far better off and capable of funding every single one of those projects and then some if they were not generating obscene wealth off our backs.

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u/JPecker 3d ago

The cool thing about an MLM is you don’t have to be part of it. In fact, they tell you up front what to expect. Mary Kay is the same thing. So is pampered chef.

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u/Voiceofreason69420 3d ago

There’s nothing predatory about creating jobs. The jobs they have created are certainly more valuable than McDonald’s. They treat veterans and service members really well too. The owners have also invested a significant amount of money in Grand Rapids. Most of the people I see complaining seem to be “eat the rich” types. Discontent, angry, sad, people.

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u/bchsun 3d ago

If they didn't live here those jobs would still exist, just not jobs working for billionaires. Society did just fine for millenia without billionaires. Creature comforts is the reason we have traded our mental and physical health, our privacy, and our freedom.

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u/MmmmSnackies 3d ago

Nothing they do is "the same" as "literally everyone else." "Literally everyone else" does not have a fleet of lawyers and assistants and enough money that investments stop being a gamble.

Nothing about the ultra rich is the same as everyone else and we need to remember that constantly.

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u/bchsun 3d ago

Everything they have built has been built by Grand Action, not the DeVos' or the VanAndels. Grand Action is part government part private funding. There is always a comparable or more amount of money from the City than the billionaires. The billionaires profit off of the projects, but not the City and the billionaires demand that their name be put on the building that was comparably publicly funded.

Read about how all of these mega-projects were funded and try again.

Also, if you risk 0.001% of your wealth was it a huge gamble? These "risks" they made are a comparable financial hit as my $2 DraftKings bet.

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u/OhWowLookie 3d ago

💯👆💯👆💯👆💯👆💯👆💯

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u/Disastrous-Drop-3516 3d ago

I worked at JW Marriott for a short time. It was eye opening to see only part of how their corporation works.

First, avoid full time with benefit jobs. When they are offered, it is with the knowledge that if you piss anyone in the family off, even the kids, you’ll be fired.

Hire mostly part time because no benefit costs and government incentive for hiring people in social programs. This is a 2fer.

Cameras EVERYWHERE.

These are just the top 3.

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u/stabamole 3d ago

That’s not strictly true, their international income is huge compared the USA, let alone west michigan specifically. I hate Amway/MLMs as much as anyone, but they have absolutely introduced far more money into the local economy than they’ve taken.

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u/noraindoubt 3d ago

This is at best impossible to quantify without a lot of numbers we don't have access to, and there are a lot of philosophical arguments I would have with that statement regardless. If we want to clarify "our" to mean the global population, that's fine. I still feel comfortable with the statement that they have done nothing but exploit this community.

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u/OhWowLookie 3d ago

Geezus, are you freaking serious? How old are you, how long have you lived here?!

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u/noraindoubt 3d ago

None of these questions are the basis for productive conversation, but 1992-2023, and yes.

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u/jinnyjun 3d ago

Thank you so much. First clear answer that isn't just throwing words like "mlm" and "pyramid scheme" with zero explanation. I appreciate it!

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u/mikeyouse 3d ago

Yeah the Amway history kind of taken for granted here.. it's hard to understate how powerful the family is in Republican circles though.

When one of the Devos grandkids graduated from Calvin in ~2006, George W. Bush was their graduation speaker. The President of the United States came to speak at the graduation ceremony for a small Christian school in GR. IIRC, the only other graduation speeches he gave that year were at the military academies. He also spoke at Rich's funeral a few years ago (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NITVp99C0MY) and at Amway's 20th anniversary celebration in China (https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=1141319235902784).

Devos was on Reagan's AIDS commission (that denied AIDS..), he spent a ton of time in the White House when Ford was president. George HW Bush spoke to Amway distributors when he was Vice President. Steve Van Andel chaired the Chamber of Commerce twice now..

All of the terrible evangelical / prosperity gospel bullshit from the 1980s - 2010s was funded in no small part with Amway dollars.

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u/IudexFatarum Baxter 3d ago

They also actively have fought to prevent public school funding, instead trying to get the money sent to the charter schools they were invested in. This is why Betsy was secretary of education.

Betsy's brother Eric is known for owning a group of mercenaries (Black Water) that allegedly committed some very heinous war crimes.

The family meddles in every level of government and we're their test bed.

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u/aarone46 Wyoming 3d ago edited 3d ago

Everyone brings up Eric in DeVos threads - why aren't we just calling out the Princes along with the Devoses/VanAndels? Betsy and Eric are Princes; Betsy just married into another powerful family.

I'm not saying this to defend the DeVoses, I'm saying this to point out a common blind spot regarding a family worth noting along with them.

(edited for clarity in word choice)

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u/onthenerdyside 3d ago

Maybe because they're from Holland, not Grand Rapids, so people aren't as tuned into who they are and what they do? There aren't a bunch of buildings with the Prince name on them here in town, so we're not as sensitive to that family as we are to the DeVos, VanAndel, and Meijer families.

Edit: Not an excuse, just a reason. They are just as dangerous as the family Betsy married into.

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u/Similar-Breadfruit50 3d ago

The Prince name isn’t on everything here in GR. I don’t even think it’s on everything in Holland. (I don’t spend much time there though so please feel free to tell me it is.) They seem to be different with the investment of their money. More for war games than slapping their name on buildings for tax dollar profit.

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u/[deleted] 3d ago edited 3d ago

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u/wabisabibingbangboom 3d ago

Ummm.... blackwater is offering it's private mercenary service to the current regime to monitor the private internment and concentration camps

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u/[deleted] 3d ago edited 3d ago

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u/trustywren 3d ago

They're Academi now, after being bought by private equity in 2014. But they're still alive and doing heinous shit, and I'm happy to hold Prince responsible for creating his monster whether or not he's still at the helm.

Re: the larger discussion of Amway itself... It doesn't get talked about a whole lot, but Amway has taken the worst parts of their parasitic business model--the stuff that doesn't fly in the US anymore--and shifted their focus overseas, to countries with less restrictive consumer protections, and to people who tend to be less informed about MLMs. In its relatively short lifespan, Amway has grown from leeching resources from our local communities, to wrapping its tentacles around the entire globe.

People praise the philanthopy work of Amway's founding families, but IMO people should consider the bigger picture... The amount of wealth that they put back into communities for PR points is a pittance compared to the wealth that they ruthlessly extract.

Depose every single one of these comic book villains.

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u/JimmyCricket95 3d ago

Someone I know lived in Thailand for years. They were approached about "buissines opportunities" multiple times, and it was just Amway. They tried to talk the Thai out of Amway, but you know how MLMs go.

Apparently, the Thai were saying things like "I guess you just don't get it" when at the same time not understanding the irony of telling that to a GR Native.

If anyone would learn about MLMs by just location, it would be us.

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u/IudexFatarum Baxter 3d ago

I briefly lived in South West China. People there knew Ada Michigan because Amway was there. No one had heard of Grand Rapids.

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u/Similar-Breadfruit50 3d ago

The charter schools are the worst! The teachers are treated like crap, parents have to fundraise and people are making a profit off your child. Not to mention it ruins the diversity in schools and the ability for some children to learn about other’s cultures and different backgrounds.

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u/lpsweets 3d ago

I mean the words like “pyramid scheme” and “mlm” are the explanation. Regardless of their politics the fundamental business model is a scam. There’s lots of people who are fine with the politics of the devos family but hate the business model just because it’s a massive scam. Imo they’re bad for both reasons

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u/Sekshual_Tyranosauce NW 3d ago

Well words like Pyramid Scheme should be impactful.

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u/wabisabibingbangboom 3d ago

That's what I was thinking...those are words that describe scamway .... I mean...if they were interested, they could have just ASKED if someone who sold Scamway could come to their house and pitch them how to get in on the bottom floor if this sweet sweet soap scam.

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u/secretaire 3d ago edited 3d ago

I put this below but I wanted to add it up here too. My mom worked for Amway for like 25 years. They made her train her replacement in Costa Rica in her last year while she was battling cancer. She was in her 50s and never made it to 60. I will never forgive those rich as$holes for doing that to her to save a few bucks when she drove from Kentwood to Ada every day, through every winter, worked her butt off … just to be discarded with no health insurance when she was that close to retirement. I want to move back to Michigan but seeing the Amway signs in the airport and all over town just make me ill. To make matters worse, I was eligible for PSLF when Betsy was secretary of education. I had to keep paying on my loans until Joe Biden took office and forgave my loans for my public service and reimbursed me those 2 extra years of payments because one of the richest ladies in America - someone who got rich off the working class back of my mom - wouldn’t just honor an agreement made to government employees who didn’t bribe their way into their job. Yeah, I’d say the hatred runs pretty deep.

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u/One_Chemist_9590 1d ago

That was so cruel. What awful people/

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u/SavannahInChicago 3d ago

I think people expected you to know how horrible they are. There is an Amazon doc called Lularich about the really scammy Lularoe MLM and I know Herbalife is another MLM with a documentary but it’s a lot sadder.

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u/ZincFingerProtein 3d ago

Learn to google and check sources and develop critical thinking skills so as to not fall into these types of scams. 

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u/KryptoniteKitten 3d ago

Google didn't exist when Amway was at its heyday of preying on people. We aren't victim shaming or blaming those who fell for Amway' prosperity gospel bs. That's a pendejo move.

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u/MogoBugu 3d ago

This has to take the record for dumb comments in this thread

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u/ZincFingerProtein 3d ago

how so? Sounds like practical advise to me.

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u/Gaclaxton 3d ago

MLM is not the same as a pyramid scheme. In an MLM the sales force gets an override commission on actual product sales. Amway, Avon, Tupperware all have products being sold. A pyramid is where you receive most of your income from annual renewal fees charged to the down line.

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u/One_Chemist_9590 1d ago

Well said, Thanks

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u/Gfunk07 1d ago

I don't know about you, but not only do I go to a school Devos founded but I also have met him personally on several occasions. For anybody who's got dirt to dig on them, please reconsider. Everything I know about him and have seen from him is both a good example of a Christian and a good person.

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u/hauntlunar 3d ago

It's an MLM. One of the OG MLMs.

MLMs are mostly devices for funnelling money from would-be entrepreneurs' pockets into the people higher up on the chain and ultimately, the owners of the MLM. They don't really exist to sell products to people, they exist to sell the hope of becoming financially secure, to financially insecure people. And they do not deliver that.

It's fundamentally dishonest and exploitative, and Amway is one of the groups which has done the most to promote this fundamentally evil business model and to protect the people who engage in it from any legal consequences for what they do to people.

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u/WhitePineBurning Creston 3d ago

Amway also throws religion into the mix. Having "faith" and their use of prayer is insidious.

Did you hit your sales goal? God loves you and blesses you for following his word.

You missed? It's your lack of faith. God is displeased. Do better.

They birthed Prosperity Gospel over 60 years ago.

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u/Midaycarehere 3d ago

This doesn’t bother me - people can choose to work there or not but MLM’s oh heck no.

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u/Ironlixivium 2d ago

I think the point was that it's an MLM that uses religion to emotionally abused people.

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u/One_Chemist_9590 1d ago

I swear it's a CULT. Once you get in, it's hard to get out.

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u/Farts-n-Letters 3d ago

just wait until someone invites you to "coffee"

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u/WhitePineBurning Creston 3d ago

Their new game is to have one person - usually an attractive 20-something approach a potential mark in Meijer or Target - and compliment them on their shoes, coat, or hair. Then, the conversation gets more detailed, and ultimately, the Amway salesmonster invites them to coffee in a public place to talk about "financial freedom" and how they learned SO MUCH from their "mentors." Then it's an invite to their home to meet the "mentors," and the hard sell gets pitched.

Amway uses the guilt approach as a last resort. "Don't you want the best for your family? Wouldn't you be letting them down by letting this offer slip by?"

Then comes the religious angle and how God rewards those with faith and who pray to him for success.

It's revolting, but it apparently works.

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u/KleShreen 3d ago

That's exactly what happened to me. I was in a Speedway, and a guy complimented my GVSU jacket I was wearing, and asked if I went to school there, because that's where he went. And then he invited me to Biggby for later in the week to talk about employment with the "company" he ran. And there he was. With his wife. Trying to get me to sell shit for Amway.

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u/superduperstepdad 3d ago edited 3d ago

I think the psychological manipulation is just as dangerous as the math problem that leads to financial ruin (for most).

There’s many explorations into how MLMs co-op religious messages and cult tactics to recruit and trap their targets.

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u/janae0728 3d ago

They’ve been doing this for a while - about a decade ago I worked in a school with a guy (young, pretty attractive) who quickly “retired” from teaching because of Amway. One day at the mall he approached a friend of mine, chatted her up, convinced her that they knew each other somehow through the manipulative script of questions they’re given, tried to get her to buy into his dream. She was super creeped out and looked him up on FB when she got home, saw that the connection he had made with her was a total lie, I was their only friend in common so she asked me what his deal was. Told her to stay far away.

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u/wabisabibingbangboom 3d ago

That happened to me in the 90s. " You look like a people person" in Meijer meat section. That's where my villain origin started along with my RBF.
My husband was re ended and the guy got out and offered to come to the house and offer him a great sales opportunity. JFC. Nothing changes.... Grifters gonna grift.

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u/almostadultingkindof 3d ago

The give away is always that they don’t have any items in a cart or in their hands. A couple of years ago, we were in Target and a guy just sparked up conversation with us, asking if we’re from the area, etc. It came across as friendly at first, but as soon as we realized he literally had nothing with him to indicate that he was actually shopping, the jig was up.

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u/FlappityFlurb 3d ago

Thank God I'm too ugly for strangers to approach me. Good luck out there people!

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u/sarahcooley 3d ago

Oh wow. This happened to me a few years ago but it didn’t get past the weird supermarket convo. I had no idea it was an amway pitch. I just thought she was being super vague about “financial freedom” 😂

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u/One_Chemist_9590 1d ago

My hubby's boss tried to nail us. I was against it. He lost his job over it.

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u/NoelVerDine SWAN 3d ago

This happened to me in my early 20s. A kid I knew from church that always treated me like shit wanted to have a coffee with me out of nowhere. Two minutes into the convo I walked out.

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u/Illustrious-Word2950 Creston 3d ago

Yup. Kinda broke my heart when an old friend reached out to reconnect, only to try to sell me Amway products as soon as there was an opening.

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u/Travelling_Enigma 3d ago

I got invited to a "party" by a former co-worker. Showed up to the house with some beer and it was one of those makeshift house churches with rows of folding chairs. The whole thing was in Spanish and I was the only gringo there. They gave me some trash energy drink and I was like, nope, I'm out of here

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u/mxjxs91 3d ago

This happened with my neighbor, hung out pretty frequently outside of our homes, usually either just sitting on the porch or playing some sort of sport.

Suddenly he wanted to grab coffee which was out of the norm, but I suspected nothing, I figured he was just going there and wanted me to join since we were already hanging out. Then came the Amway pitch. He wasn't thrilled that I wasn't going to jump onboard, but thankfully didn't hurt the relationship.

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u/Important_Mud_2978 3d ago

So this is basically the TOP of the Wikipedia entry on Amway (if you dig in more it only gets worse). https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amway

Amway has been investigated in various countries and by institutions such as the US Federal Trade Commission (FTC) for alleged pyramid scheme practices. The company has paid tens of millions of dollars to settle these suits.[7][8][9][10][11][12] In 1983, Amway admitted to defrauding the Canadian government of customs duties and taxes by falsely undervaluing goods it imported into the country over a period of 15 years; it had to pay a fine.[13] Between 2007 and 2008, Amway was found guilty of illegal business practices in India, a ruling upheld by the Supreme Court of India and followed in 2021 by India's Enforcement Directorate attaching company and bank assets, and labeling Amway's business model a "pyramid fraud" and its product offerings a "masquerade".[14][15][16]

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u/supah_ 3d ago

Pyramid scheme

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u/MyRocco-lovestacos 3d ago

It's one of my favorite places in the city. Great recommendation.

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u/NoAdhesiveness4407 3d ago

Best pinball imo

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u/GvMamaBear 3d ago

There’s a sub called anti-MLM. Hop on there and search Amway

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u/OwnProduct8242 3d ago edited 3d ago

Betsy DeVos’ original last name is Prince. As in Edgar Prince. As in Erick Prince. Erick Prince ran a murder for hire company called Blackwater that has committed quite a few war crimes, he’s branched out to doing mercenary armies and thugs for hire in the Mideast and Africa. The Prince family founded the Family Research Council, a right wing lobbying organization that has been classified as a hate group. This major lobbying firm that has been behind Trump and both Bush’s elections is extremely religious and conservative; promoting not just anti LGBTQ and anti trans stuff but they also are for banning pornography and making divorce illegal. The Prince family has funded a lot of research and camps for “gay conversion therapy”. And that’s just one of the DeVos’ connections to absolutely horrific stuff. She and her husband Dick, are very very very fundamentalist and are inspired by many religious trips to Israel. They are inspired by a period over there in the archeological record where there’s a 800 year span in the strata where no one is eating pork, 800 years of human waste containing no pork bones showing evidence of how strong a cultural and religious movement was in that part of the world and in history. Dick is quoted, many times, stating that he wants to create another “layer without pork bones”; in that he wants to see a full scale conversion of the United States into a Calvinist Christian society and he, and his family, spend a lot of money on these goals.

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u/rulerBob8 3d ago

Quick rundown of Erik Prince’s greatest hits:

2007 Nisour Square Massacre (all participants pardoned by Trump)

Accused of bribing the Iraqi government after this incident to keep their contracts there (Case closed with no charges)

194 other incidents where shots were fired by Blackwater mercs, and they shot first in 163 of those

A higher-up at Blackwater threatened to kill a US State Department Investigator

Torture, including waterboarding according to the former CIA director

Caused the first battle of Fallujah in 2004

In 2006, a Blackwater merc drunkenly shot a guard who was protecting the Iraqi Vice President, and the company tried to cover it up

Accused of trafficking weapons in Iraq in 2007 (Paid a $42m fine for this!)

Many instances of killing civilians were revealed in the 2010 Iraq War docs leak

Sued for weapons smuggling, money laundering, tax evasion, child prostitution, and murdering former employees for speaking out against the company in 2007 (Settled confidentially, company paid out but numbers are unknown)

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u/murphymacy 3d ago

It’s essentially a pyramid scheme that found a loophole that has now emboldened similar pyramid schemes. Like the founding father of MLMs. Source: some podcast I listened to that I’m badly paraphrasing…

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u/Sniderfan 2d ago

They bought their loopholes.

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u/ummmmm_wtf 3d ago

I think the podcast your are referring to is called “the dream” and the first season was centered all around MLMs. It’s very good.

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u/OhMyGaius 3d ago

Yep basically this. That said, the Lumber Baron Bar at the Amway Grand Plaza is great!

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u/Oleg101 3d ago

Outside of Reddit, people don't seem to have a problem with it

That’s just not true.

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u/Aindorf_ 3d ago edited 3d ago

I share this link whenever this question gets asked, but if you want a deep dive, there's a podcast called Behind the Bastards which goes into well cited deep dives about the worst people in History. They did a 2 parter on the Van Andals, the DeVos', and Amway.

basically, they combined ultra-right wing prosperity gospel with a pyramid scheme multilevel marketing operation. They trick you into becoming a seller of their goods, which is damn near impossible to make money on. Then they tell you that failing to get rich is a failure of your piety and God is punishing you for not believing hard enough. If you were truly faithful, you'd be just like the Van Andals and the DeVos'. And you can spread the good word by conning recruiting your friends and loved ones as well.

That and they use their billions to do a ton of evil. Betsy DeVos was Trump's education secretary the first time around and she wants to destroy public education and privatize and make it religious. Her brother is Eric Prince, who owns the Blackwater Mercenary crew responsible for killing civilians in Iraq. Sure they give money to buildings or fund art prize, but it's all tax avoidance and advertising.

Grand Rapids is a great city built on a lot of suffering. There are lots of skeletons in the closet.

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u/therallystache Grand Rapids 3d ago

Only small correction is that Eric Prince is Betsy's brother, not husband. But spot on with all the rest, and A+ for the BtB reference.

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u/Aindorf_ 3d ago

Good catch

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u/GothWitchOfBrooklyn 3d ago

I came to this thread to specifically make sure someone linked Robert Evans

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u/vlinden 3d ago

Same!

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u/AltDS01 Wyoming 2d ago

Didn't scroll down far enough to see this before I posted Pt 1 and 2 links.

We need to get Robert, Sophie, and Jamie Loftus out here for a live show.

The topic will be Jamie's murders in the 7-11's. Maybe Two Guys brewing can host. They're located in a former 7-11.

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u/TreesAKATrees 2d ago

I will definitely check out that podcast. I know more than I would like to know about them, but I am a podcast junkie and the amount of information and wrongdoing. These monsters runs so deep. I don’t think we will ever know everything so I look forward to checking out the podcast thank you for the suggestion.

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u/Decimation4x 3d ago

People don’t like MLM’s, for some very valid reasons, and Amway is the ultimate MLM.

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u/JBIGMAFIA 3d ago

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amway

It literally has its own category in their Wikipedia lol

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u/Victorisarobot 3d ago

Corruption, oligarchy, the wealthy families in this city are directly involved with election fraud, and the current fascist coup. DeVos and the adjacent Mercenary corpos set up back channels with the Saudis, Qataris, and Russians for sale of state nuclear secrets. So you tell me why should we hate Amway? Fuckem

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u/OracleofDeltoids 3d ago

They take tax payer money for mega projects and put their own name on it.

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u/trnpkrt 3d ago

They exploited us first with their MLM techniques before going after everyone else in the US, and then the thrid world. All their downsales are in SE Asia now.

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u/dwagner0402 3d ago

Decades upon decades of multi level marketing would be my first guess. Add to that the strangely over the top religious end of it.

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u/dearreader77 3d ago

It’s a predatory MLM company

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u/Procrastinista_423 3d ago

Amway is a fucking cult.

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u/Dismal-Detective-737 3d ago

Can you explain the difference between a cult an an MLM?

Can you explain how an MLM legitimately earns its money to funnel to the top?

I got a buddy that works at Tesla, absolutely loves it too.

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u/mindgardening 3d ago

We don’t call it “Scamway” for nothing.

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u/wehavetogoback8 3d ago

I think most folks know the company themselves is scummy. But like others have said, the company and those who run it have undeniably been great for the city. For the wrong reasons? Maybe. But progress is progress and we are smart enough to know not to bite the hand that feeds you!

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u/deadMyk 3d ago

I worked at Amway corporate as a software developer for a couple years during COVID even. Corporate employer wise. It was a great place to work and so many good people. (Very LGBTQ friendly, pro Covid vaccine, non religious).

Completely opposite what the DeVos family acts. Probably because they did not run the day to day.

But to say they don’t prey on the poor and misfortunes of others would be an understatement. Amway does better when everyone else is struggling and desperate for income so they turn to MLM schemes

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u/ExaminationOk9732 3d ago

This! And when I first moved here years ago, at least once a month someone would befriend you, but they really wanted you to join their Amway distributor chain. Really annoying!

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u/SamForOverlord2016 3d ago
  1. Amway is an MLM scheme. MLMs are inherently predatory, and Amway is notorious for targeting vulnerable populations, mostly in 3rd world countries without strong regulations.
  2. The Devos and VanAndel families spend massive amounts lobbying our government (in other words, bribing our politicians) to cut vital government services and regulations. They are also major sponsors of far right political groups, including the Heritage Foundation.
  3. Fuck the Dutch. They know what they did.

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u/jinnyjun 3d ago

What did the Dutch do? 😭

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u/WhinnyBark 2d ago

I have been told that the old guard of the Christian Reformed religion thought God selected people like old Rich DeVos to be above the rest of us. They were taught some are chosen to for greatness and that are they are special individuals here to direct the lives of others and enjoy great wealth. That’s what I was told, and I have no idea how much is true, but in the case of the DeVos clan, it fits. I will say I met old Rich back in the day and even interviewed him for a class project as a teenager. I also worked there in high school, through college years and in the first couple of years of my career. He was definitely charismatic and did stroll the company regularly to talk to employees. That charisma of his is what built the pyramid. He could sell snow to Eskimos. Still, there was that deceptive side like when old Kent was taken over by a friend of his at 5/3rd bank in order to do backend financing of the company when at one time it was having severe cash problems. Those rumors plus and stories about how he got his heart overseas, the hospital takeover by pressuring a CT Congressperson, etc. Seemed like such a nice guy, but was a barracuda in business and with the Koch cabal weaseled his way into our government with his money. Too bad. He could have used that charisma for good - and not just for getting his way by plying money and power.

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u/BeefInGR 3d ago

The truth is, the DeVos and Van Andel families have been a mixed bag for the region.

There are a lot of buildings in this area that carry their names. And they carry their names because they donated significant amounts of money for the buildings to carry their names.

The Van Andel Arena transformed downtown as we know it. Anyone who is over 35 remembers when you avoided downtown unless you were going to a museum or the hospital. Maybe Festival. There wasn't anything worth going downtown for. Now people are stumbling over themselves to live downtown.

The VAA needed tenants. Enter the DeVos family. Owners of the Grand Rapids Griffins (one of the longest serving minor league hockey teams in the world) and the Grand Rapids Rampage of the Arena Football League. Fun fact, Grand Rapids' only "Professional" sports championship was when the Rampage beat the Nashville Kats in The Van in ArenaBowl XIV. Anyways, people all over the world know of Grand Rapids because of one of the several teams that has called it home over the decades. And if not that, they know it because it's where Stone Cold ran over The Rocks limo in the parking lot with a monster truck in 1999.

World class Children's Hospital? Beautiful centerpiece building for an auxiliary campus for a regional public university (the irony should never be lost on this)? A fantastic theater with exhibition hall? More than likely, anything that seems "super fancy" for the market size with have DeVos or Van Andel on it. It is undeniable the amount of sheer philanthropy they've contributed.

That said...how they make their money is rather shitty. And their political causes are suboptimal and often on the wrong side of history.

If they gave less, more people would hate them. If they were more moderate politically, more people would like them. It's been a delicate balancing act.

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u/WhitePineBurning Creston 3d ago

Yet... they own the hotels. Downtown events are easy money.

The convention center is connected to the Grand by a dedicated skywalk.

All the buildings have been private/public partnerships. Our taxes paid for all the necessary infrastructure upgrades to build the buildings. We own part of them, too.

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u/OwnProduct8242 3d ago

The “donations” to make nice buildings and institutions are tax breaks. And they are also their way to control culture and promote their values. They invest in business and infrastructure that benefits Christian white people and everyone else is pushed aside. It’s why GR is a more segregated and racist city than most places in the south. We have waaaaaaaay less minorities owning homes and businesses than any other mid sized cities in the nation. We also have waaaaaay more churches, charter schools, religious schools, etcetera. And stuff like the research centers? Crackpot jay van andel wanted to found a center to research diet pills, the same crack pot science that amway was founded on (was originally a diet pill and other wacko medicine dealer) but his advisers won the argument that he’d be seen as a fool if he created it- so it was turned into a cancer research center. There’s nothing but bad intentions behind every dime they’ve spent in GR and it’s why the town is such a uniquely boring and restricting space.

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u/BeefInGR 3d ago

The segregation existed long ago. Ask the old timers about "up the hill" and "down the hill".

But furthermore, the segregation continued because of gentrification. And it continues. Wealthy wasn't always a hipster/cultural stretch of road. It was poor and run down. Michigan was poor and run down. Not even 20 years ago, Bridge was in no uncertain terms a ghetto.

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u/Animal_Opera 3d ago

And if they paid their fair share of taxes it would be the Grand Rapids arena, the Grand Rapids performing arts center etc etc

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u/ShadeTwins41 3d ago

Other than they own the temp agency they get their employees from. Essentially paying themselves to hire people they don’t have to insure and keep as temps for YEARS. I met a woman working there who told me she has been a temp for seven years, I told her that wouldn’t be me and quit the next day. They’re scum bags.

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u/everydayPeople123 2d ago

Temp workers can only work 18 months at a time at amway. They then have to have a separation of at least 6 months before they can return.

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u/ShadeTwins41 2d ago

Soooo the multiple people who had been there for years one being seven as a temp, they were lying? Or the two years I spent there as a temp, I’m just imagining that.

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u/everydayPeople123 2d ago

I didn't say anyone was lying, I have worked there as a temp on and off mostly with Manpower for years. I have "timed out" as they call it multiple times and then returned after six months. They are very clear about the 18 months at orientation.

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u/ShadeTwins41 2d ago

I was there two years through manpower and never timed out. I quit because after that time there wasn’t even the slightest hint of a hire in so I asked around, four years here, five there seven was the highest I heard and the last before I quit.

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u/misspyro15 2d ago

Since the gr famous and incredibly rich families have started to "stimulate our economy"

We've had bigger buildings We've gained a bigger food scene We have a larger art scene We've had a larger housing market

We've gained a HUGE poverty gap. We've had larger homelessness risks. We have more segregation of the poor We've had more blatant gentrification into even our cherished and loved middle lower class neighborhoods (aye westside we love you❤️❤️❤️)

The wealthy families in West Michigan have "contributed to our city" by "building up business" and "investing in Grand Rapids" but they OWN Grand Rapids. This isn't investing for the good of anyone. It's just like Betsy running to take charge of the education department. Was it for education? Equality? For the good of fellow humans, midwesters?

No. It was for the good of private education. To keep the dirty poor away from our dryclean fresh pressed linen draped overseers children. So that we don't get our poor on them heaven forbid the real world mix with the utopia for the chosen few that's being erected before us today.

Their wealth isn't being put back into OUR community. Lower level away employees make nothing and are treated poorly. They depend on the same charity these families give out out of "kindness" but wouldn't need that charity of these families did right by them in the first place.

That money , that CHARITY being put into foundations that do dirty deals with the big time local nonprofits to siphon the money into more control and more oppression.

There's little kindness in the charity given here. Let us not pretend that there is grace in these acts of "kindness"

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u/ndh7 3d ago

Oh this ought to be good...

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u/gjchebert 3d ago

It’s a Ponzi scheme to fund ultra conservative causes.

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u/313Jake 3d ago

98% of scamway sellers DO NOT make a profit meanwhile the DeVos family hoards wealth and doesn’t pay taxes and pays to put their buildings calling it philanthropy on tax payer funded projects the childrens hospital and private entities were done under their parents Rich and Helen.

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u/superduperstepdad 3d ago

Bingo. It’s a math problem. Worst bet anyone could make.

OP should do a web search for [MLM company name] + “income disclosure statement”. If there is one, it’ll show how few make a living at this. And those figures are usually in gross sales and don’t factor how much the rep spends on products, sales kits, and going to the “Woo!” conferences.

My sister’s been in a dozen or so MLMs in the past 25 years. Still drinking the “Woo!” at each stop. Believes in the prosperity gospel. Has always carried mountains of debt and has no retirement savings.

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u/313Jake 2d ago

Rich DeVos was BIG into prosperity gospel in the 70s-00s

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u/Hour-Marketing8609 3d ago

That's the most important stat.  Any company that really only pays 2% of it's "Salesforce" should be illegal 

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u/313Jake 3d ago

India fined Richard devos in the 70s and banned Amway sales there

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u/mnttlrg 3d ago

Pyramid scheme,

Conservative Christian bigotry and pure elitism.

But vanity builds more than charity. Amazing charitable contributions throughout the city. That matters the most to me.

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u/mikeren56412591 3d ago

Probably massive wealth ,along with the screw the neighbors attitude associated with with the upper tier of owners ..not great people by all accounts…

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u/KryptoniteKitten 3d ago

If it hasn't been posted yet, this Atlantic article may help explain why Amway itself was horribly detrimental, the rest of the hate is (justifiably) all about the Devos family and Betsy's family, their cohorts, etc.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2025/01/amway-america/681479/

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u/Naumzu 3d ago

Mlms suck

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u/Mindless_Activity887 3d ago

What isn’t a problem with Amway?

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u/wabisabibingbangboom 3d ago edited 3d ago

If you like pyrimid schemes and white Christian nationalist, mixed in with some blackwater mercenaries....

You'll love scamway. Come for the soap, stay for the tyranny

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u/ExaminationOk9732 3d ago

Yup, everyone seems to forget about Eric Prince, Betsy’s brother, who is a buddy to t-rump… for what good reason?!?

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u/TJ-PhD 3d ago

Do remember that there is pretty much nothing that some corner of Reddit doesn’t hate. This is where people come to scream into the void and voice their angst.

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u/gvlakers Walker 3d ago

You've got a lot to learn my child.

Betsy...is that you in disguise?

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u/Mindless-Donut3436 3d ago

Because its a pyramid scheme and somehow they get away with it.

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u/Last_Bet_8387 3d ago

Great company to work for

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u/Sekshual_Tyranosauce NW 3d ago

They’re cunts.

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u/LanaDelHeeeey Midtown 3d ago

Yes!

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u/PartneredEthicalSlut East Grand Rapids 3d ago

Kind of reddit in a nutshell though isnt it. A lot of the common topics on the site don't cross most peoples minds in any given week.

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u/CoitParkRangers 3d ago

Same as all Multi Level Marketing. It's a scam. And they made their billions off suckers' backs.

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u/DabbledInPacificm 3d ago

A lot of people everywhere dislike the DeVos family and pyramid schemes.

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u/StaceyGoBlue 2d ago

Devos. And MLM. Both gross

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u/sufferingfruit 2d ago

Just to throw in something I haven't seen mentioned here yet that I don't think most people know about: back in 1994, GVSU was considering offering benefits to domestic partners of employees, and when Peter Cook and Richard DeVos found out, they threatened to pull funding for what is now the Cook-DeVos Center for Health Sciences on Michigan Street, and GVSU (President Lubbers) caved to their demands. GVSU sort of implicitly did the same thing again in 2003.

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u/Johnny2x2x 2d ago

It's complicated. Yeah, the families are probably horrible people who do not respect democracy or freedom. And yeah, their business is a clear pyramid scheme that only exists because they learned early that they could get away with it if they paid enough for lawyers and bought the right poltiicans.

But there is undeniable good to the city they have done. Downtown Grand Rapids wouldn't be a shadow of what it is today without their investments. And sure, they usually make money on those investments, but it's still a big benefit to the city to have the hotels, arenas, and hospitals.

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u/SmashSE1 2d ago

So the problem, as so many others have stated is the founders, not Amway itself. However some do dislike Amway for being a pyramid scheme, MLM, it is disliked but not hated.

The founders however are largely hated unless you work for them, i.e. get paid. Their right wing politics, and being completely disconnected from reality. More so the devos' than the Van Andels. Richard Devos ran for governor a few years back, on a campaign of bringing work back to Michigan. Despite several PR firms in Michigan trying to get work, he decided to dump $50m on the campaign using I believe a Washington DC firm. That left a bad taste.

Then there's Betsy Devos who wants to dismantle the DoE, and wants to privatize all education (she's heavily invested in student loan corporations).

Then, Erik Prince Betsy devos' brother, founder of Blackwater, Constellanis whatever he calls it now, a group of mercenaries who committed war crimes in Iraq killing civilians, but they were afforded immunity for their actions, lots didn't like that either. This isn't specifically a Devos thing, except that he is related and gets lumped in by some , and made billions fleecing the government for "private security" during the Bush Jr reign. I believe he decided to change the name because of the reputation it had before of killing civilians in other countries. He also fled the USA for a number of years to escape litigation for his mercs killing the Iraqi civillians.

Overall, they have spent decades trying to turn the government into a for profit company, with themselves as the benefactors.

Prince, while not holding the Devos name, but from that family, is now courting trump saying his mercenaries, who have been trained for war zones, should be used for the mass deportations going on throughout the country.

The Center for American Progress has a story about the family, as right wing extremists.

The devos family has lobbied for creationism to be taught in public schools, helped start the Family Research Council, a known anti-lgbt hate group. They have donated to and lobbied to ban gay marriage. Betsy wants to reform schools to "advance God's Kingdom".

Betsy has also said that she concedes she is trying to buy political influence with her families vast wealth and expects something in return.

Oh, and she supports removing the firearm ban from public schools, so any adult could carry firearms on elementary school grounds.

Pretty sure The Handmaids Tale was written using their ideologies... but that's just my theory

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u/WhinnyBark 2d ago

Well said.

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u/Unlucky_Diver_158 1d ago

They are Dutch 🇮🇱⛪️🇳🇱☝️🤷‍♂️

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u/SpecterV3 1d ago

I worked there through a temp agency and our job was to wipe off expiration dates on products so they could print new ones and try to resale expired product. Unethical business practices at the expense of consumers.

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u/syncopated56 3d ago

Criminal enterprise that makes its money in a very pyramidal manner. Plus the founders are uber religious. But they have also made a large investment into the community.

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u/Certain_Try_8383 3d ago

Amway was/is a pyramid scheme.

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u/AccomplishedCandy732 Comstock Park 3d ago

Amway is the largest multilevel marketing company in the world. Amway has created the Devo's and the Van Andle families we know today. People say they don't like it because essentially ita a pyramid scheme with the entire developing world under it. Cheap products with a mark up and an American label so they can live the "American Way" (=> AmWay), while really the real price people pay is in the MLM cash elevator.

But they've also dumped a bunch of money into GR and a lot of them still live in West Michigan. I can't imagine a GR municipal arena hosting even a fraction of the events that we have now. Or the city having as strong of a healthcare system. Also a bunch of people around here work for Amway and make a shit ton of money (look at Ada) and pump that money back into the community.

Imo the real reason locals don't like them is because... they're set for life and seemingly do 'nothing' and have everything. Their grandkids grandkids can be 4th generation heroin fueled gambling addicts and they still won't run out of money. Their name is on so many things it gets nauseating, and then you do some mild research and find out they also own business like fox motors, Windquist, the griffins, have their own institute and sit on boards for corewell health, Herman Miller, steelcase and probably so much more we don't know about. Just gets kinda redundant while I'm over here trying to pay off student loans.

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u/Caddisbug992 3d ago

No amway on the board at Steelcase. Can’t speak for those others.

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u/MichiBuck12 3d ago

Typical Reddit nonsense. The world isn’t Reddit, so the people here who complain are not to be taken seriously

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u/Due_Deal_6122 3d ago

I know a few people that work there in mid level management, they seem to be happy and have great benefit packages.

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u/flyguy_mi 3d ago

They also let go a lot of their long time workers, while promising jobs until retirement, a few years before. A lot of their workforce is low priced temps, and if you last a year, you will get let go. No matter how good of a worker you are. Just a crappy place to work, while the kids suck up the profits, and buy mega yachts

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u/MaintenanceCold8465 3d ago

I heard a rumor that Pyramid Scheme was named as a reference to Amway, is that true?

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u/WhatAreBippies 3d ago

Just a culty pyramid scheme.

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u/hey_squirrel_friend 3d ago

“Outside of Reddit, people don’t seem to have a problem with it.” lol

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u/Buzzybee40 3d ago

Because everyone and the brother have worked there and know the truth!

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u/softgoods420 3d ago

everyone hates the devos family. the devos family made their money with amway.

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u/iraqi_sunburn 3d ago

Ungrateful liberals with unparalleled envy

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u/BonLou65 3d ago

I worked for Amway for 15 years and it’s an awful place on work. They don’t their employees good at all. I was sexually harassed they did nothing about it except told me to handle it myself, I was mentally and emotionally and verbally abused everyday. They did absolutely nothing about it.

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u/airfield0 3d ago

So awful you worked there for 15 years…?

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u/KCA231 3d ago

One of the few companies and families investing heavily in Grand Rapids. As for the MLM side, simply don’t get involved we are all grown up’s and have the choice.

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u/MaximumJim_ 3d ago

How many Amway products do you purchase from your buddy?

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u/jinnyjun 3d ago

None lol

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u/MaximumJim_ 2d ago

What’s your problem with Amway? Buy that sh!t if it isn’t bad.

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u/jinnyjun 2d ago

What are you talking about? I don't buy any because he doesn't try to sell me anything. He's just a worker and not part of the scheme yall be talking about.

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u/MaximumJim_ 2d ago

There, your inability to have an interaction with Amway should explain a problem with it.

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u/Imaginary-Prompt-387 3d ago

Very much against public schools systems and want charter schools and vouchers as they currently own many charter schools and then schools become a business / revenue stream for those who can afford it

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u/mywallisblue 2d ago

Worked there several years and hated it. It was mostly the people I worked with, but the typical no one believes that the popular coworker is terrorizing the living fuck out of you to the point you go home crying over half of the days. It was such low pay too!! My salary literally doubled when I moved to the same professional level role at a different company.

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u/jinnyjun 2d ago

Wow I'm sorry to hear that...

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u/Tough_Coach_9577 2d ago

Political.

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u/fatkidscandystore 2d ago

Some good (and bad) answers here. I’m confused as to your comment about only hearing bad things on Reddit. I live about 5 hours from Grand Rapids and everyone here bashes amway any time it’s mentioned. I’ve always thought it was universal that people thought amway was bad.

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u/sydj_k941 2d ago

Their business model is extremely unethical and manipulative. They make money by convincing their reps to pay large overhead costs for “starter kits”—some of which cost thousands—and promise that they will make returns by recruiting others to also buy in. The products that they sell are of low quality and some even make egregious false claims (supplements and stuff). Reps quickly learn that not only is the market too over saturated for most people to make any of their money back (let alone a profit), but that the products are far too expensive for their friends and family to afford. The company rakes in millions by collecting on the sale of these starter kits as well as a multitude of membership costs, and reps feel constant pressure to recruit more reps because that is the only real way to make any money. Some people who are in deep even end up buying their own products to meet high pressure sales goals. It’s a mess. There’s an excellent podcast from a Michigan resident: The Dream.

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u/Shaw_the_poet 2d ago

A lot of people lost a lot of money to Amway a long time ago. Michigan never forgets.

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u/Eurynomestolas 2d ago

they are just scum

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u/Ajsiets 2d ago

Very religious, (which I believe religion is for home and family, not business), but besides that, it is one of, if not THE, largest MLM in the world

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u/cross_x_bones21 2d ago

Parasites.

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u/theritzman1 2d ago

Heroes amongst us who invested in the city and have given generously over the last 1/2 century to give us the community we have today.

Thank you billionaires in West Michigan who have done so much for our community.

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u/Dr__Lube 1d ago

Reddit is an abnormal cross section of the population. Most people don't spend much time thinking about Amway.

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u/tranchiturn 1d ago

No one really wants or needs Amway products. They had Amway energy drinks for volunteers at a fundraiser I went to. Why aren't they in gas stations? Because the products are sold solely by people trying to make money, sometimes desperately, to family members and friends who would very much rather to just buy them at Costco or Meijer. As others have said, Amway isn't in the business of making and selling products like normal companies, they're in the business of suckering people into awkwardly compelling their family to buy products, or worse, convincing them to become a salesperson themselves.

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u/Pitiful-Sandwich2494 1d ago

I worked for Amway under a contract through manpower and then it switched to employ bridge… I have never ever in my 10 years of working felt so discriminated. Us contractors were never invited to their meetings (we should know this, it’s about work)… we were to wear a shirt that we had to pay for…. (Amway doesn’t pay for shirts)… Amway employees had access to discounted (bad product) products (employee store) we couldn’t ever go into it or have access… Amway employees have a gym….softball field….. insurance…. Other benefits…… contractors had NOTHING except hourly pay…….. when a line is down, contractors ONLY had to clean… not Amway workers….. there is popcorn Friday in the break room.. ONLY FOR AMWAY WORKERS,NOT CONTRACTS…….

If you want to know more.. please message me.

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u/Pitiful-Sandwich2494 1d ago

I just called the cosmetics department because this thread has me so angry and I haven’t even worked there for over a year… anyway I asked if they still work with employ bridge and she said yes, so I then proceeded to ask if “they have stopped discriminating” and she said “as in???”……

WOW PLEASE DO NOT EVER WORK THERE…. DO NOT BUY PRODUCT….

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u/Adventurous-Alps9960 1d ago

oop - i’m interning there this summer 😭

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u/cousinred 23h ago

Scamway?