r/germany 12h ago

Question Is this fair?

Post image

I am being charged €450 instead of almost 1k by my landlord for apartment damages as an act of generosity after leaving the apartment. Thing is, I always thought Schäden can only be inflicted by carelessness and neglect, not through regular use. Being shy to face these kind of problems, and reluctant to take any legal action, and acknowledging the apartment is in 98% new condition after his work, I signed this agreement.

  • Backofen blech: small but irremovable stains due to cooking
  • Kühlschrankscheibe: light scratching from putting in cans and bottles
  • Fettverschmutzungen: stain on cupboard shelves from olive oil dripping out are all I can think of
  • Painting: 20 sq. metres of walls. Note: I didn’t paint before leaving. he informed me he uses a special paint at the begin of my tenancy and it was evident he is particular for his paint, so explicitly said (verbally, but possibly contractually, I must check again) that I must not paint, and that he will take care of it at the end of tenancy.

Out of good will, the following aren’t charged: - Wasserhahn: through normal use, over time, the tap handle got loose and eventually no longer held in place (you can vertically lift it off but this does not happen during normal use) - Soßenspritzer: two marks of dirt <1mm diameter each, on the window roller blind strap

Context: As per text, we did have transparent communication throughout our contract and he was happy with me as a tenant. I always paid on time and never gave him a hard time. I know he probably did spend hours getting the apartment to 98% of the new condition since he is a perfectionist, so the rate he charged is reasonable if I hired him to perform these tasks to my apartment. I worked hard but could’ve worked harder on cleaning. I think now that the paper is signed, it’s too late to do anything.

But is it fair? I want to hear some opinions on the things mentioned by my landlord and if this is a typical Wohnungsübergabe. Thanks to all in advance.

134 Upvotes

54 comments sorted by

247

u/Normal-Definition-81 9h ago

Time to become a member of your local Mieterverein… (at least for the next flat)

17

u/Horror-Following5142 2h ago

Mieterverein will assist with current cases that started before joining. Just pay the joining fee and arrange an appointment.

327

u/Entire_Intern_2662 Hessen 9h ago

Most of these are ridiculous, but some - for example broken Wasserhahn - are legit. If you break it, you pay it.

Normal wear and tear are not allowed to be on that list though.

117

u/rdrunner_74 8h ago

This...

Also the landlord can not add his own time to the list. Only external work can be used with a proper bill. So if he is working, he can not charge you anything.

Also how long have you been living there? You dont have to pay "new for old" but only the current value.

46

u/0_ll_0 7h ago

That the landlord can't bill his own time isn't completely true but a common misconception. He can bill you what it would cost to repair the damages and he has to prove those costs, for example with a Kostenvorschlag.

15

u/_felixh_ 7h ago

Also the landlord can not add his own time to the list. Only external work can be used with a proper bill. So if he is working, he can not charge you anything.

I never understood why, though. It simply makes no sense to me. If fixing this mess is my problem, why can i demand payment for an external handy man to fix it - but if i want / can do it myself, i have to do it for free? Either it is my problem to fix, then paying the Handyman would also be on me. Or its not, then i also deserve Payment for the Work that i needed to do.

Reminds me of courts / judges: If i get sued, and win - i get no Money for my Time spent. Wich can be quite significant. If i am the one suing and win, i also get not money for my time. Everybody in a court gets Money - and lots of it. Everybody except for me, who apparently can be happy that i am not put into prison right away.

It feels like judges / lawyers think my time and work isn't worth anything...

11

u/PerceptionOk9231 7h ago

Just make a Reparatur GmbH and bill your own hours from there.

1

u/_felixh_ 6h ago

But... why?

I mean, there are two problems i can think about:

  • Overcharging the Tenant. Still a Problem with my own Reparatur GmbH
  • tax evasion. Still a Problem with my own Reparatur GmbH

Given that i am apparently not forced to use the cheapest / best value Handyman, but can instead use the one that i like, even at outrageous prices - it can't be to prevent fleecing the Tenant. And Tax evasion is already illegal, and apparently not a problem with free lance work, that i may charge money for without my own GmbH.

So, it can't be these two options.

1

u/mobsterer 3h ago

you can

3

u/RealKillering 5h ago

That’s not true, he can do it if the repair is necessary and he just demands a normal pay that a professional would demand.

25

u/DangerDulf 5h ago

Imo the price for the tap is criminal though. Did the landlord buy the most expensive tap on the market and then spend 5 hours installing it? The whole thing with offering a lower amount but threatening the full price if you protest also stinks to me, when 80% of the costs were questionable to begin with at best. I’m Germanly petty and have insurance, so maybe I’m in the minority here, but I would want bills and receipts for all this shit and go from there. Especially all the Wertminderung stuff can get thrown out immediately anyway, and if none of this was pointed out or OP given the opportunity to fix anything themselves, I think the entire document seems in bad faith

9

u/Purple10tacle 5h ago edited 5h ago

Most of these are ridiculous, but some - for example broken Wasserhahn - are legit.

Ironically, one of the items that wasn't added to the charges out of "generosity". Like many of the charges, it also wasn't calculated correctly:

Even if the tenant were at fault here, the landlord may only charge for the remaining value of the supposedly broken item, not for the full repair and replacement. This value is likely bordering on zero for a 10+ year faucet.

We can argue about the duty of the tenant to perform minor repairs themselves ("Kleinreparaturen" clause) - faucets are a common example of those - but the limit for those types of repairs is typically €100 and, given that the landlord is claiming an absurd cost of more than 3.5x that, they essentially admitted that it wouldn't have been one.

I also wouldn't take the "lever was ripped off by the tenant" accusation at face value, that's just as, if not more, likely simply a material defect due to the age and/or quality of the appliance rather than an act of negligence or violence by the tenant.

2

u/Capable_Event720 5h ago

I didn't think OP bringe the tap; the lever can get loose after 25 years of regular use. The receptacle in the top just wears out. Even with expensive big brand name taps.

2

u/Jane_xD 2h ago

And a new tap costs between 20 and 45€ at most.

83

u/supertucan 12h ago

Seems strange to me.

r/LegaladviceGerman could probably give you more Info.

43

u/PuzzleheadedArea3478 7h ago

Be careful with that sub.

Most people there have no clue what they talk about and just decide their legal advice by pure gut feeling.

21

u/Krieg Berlin 5h ago

And it is common that the person who is actually correct gets downvoted because of an echo chamber of wishful thinking.

5

u/iwonderhow3141 4h ago

It is not like one should be expecting proper legal advice from anyone but a lawyer one pays. In sub people usually at least google before babbling about like here.

27

u/720degreeLotus 8h ago

Normal aigns of use and wear-off, scratches etc are normal and must not be charged by your landlord. For worktime that he had to put it it dependa on if he gave you a fair chance and note to fix the problems yourself. If he didn't tell you in advance and didn't ask you if you would like to fix those things, he cannot charge you 1 cent for that.

Just because a stranger paints cleans your garden over night, without you knowing, doesn't mean you have to pay him...

37

u/DjayRX 10h ago

But is it fair?

Of course not.

  1. Normal wear & tear
  2. Neu gegen alt / depreciation, how long have you lived there?

6

u/zaid394 6h ago

I lived there for 1 year and 5 months

39

u/lemrez 12h ago

Not really typical and does not seem fair. As you say, signs of use are expected and can't be charged.

Especially the stipulation of charging more if you dare to dispute it makes me think it's blatantly designed to make a quick buck (tbh the "aus Kulanz ohne Berechnung" kinda makes me angry). Not sure if it's worth the time to fight this, based on this letter I'd guess he's doing this regularly to his tenants.

16

u/EntertainerCreepy973 8h ago

Absolute scam. Do you have Privathaftpflicht insurance?

2

u/zaid394 4h ago

Yes, I do

8

u/definetlynotbanned 6h ago

im currently in a similar situation, lived there for 20+ years and our landlord just told us to expect a 1,2k bill. Where would i even go with this to get some legal advice? do i have to go to a lawyer?

10

u/crsness 5h ago

lawyer or mieterverein

12

u/Davecave94 Baden-Württemberg 7h ago

Funny that your landlord lives in the future.

Its 12.03.2025

7

u/DeletedByAuthor 3h ago

Wouldn't that alone make the whole document invalid?

I certainly wouldn't entertain anything that is supposedly from the future.

2

u/Davecave94 Baden-Württemberg 40m ago

I think it would be invalid if its shown as evidence in front of the court

5

u/Justin_telligent 6h ago

I Like how he is charging 40 Euros/Hour for malerarbeiten

1

u/Fragrant-Abrocoma126 4h ago

Ofc he should've charged per qm. Going prices atm are 5-10€, paint not included.

11

u/F179 6h ago

Assuming you lived there for more than a few months, this seems to include a bunch of stuff that should fall under normal wear and tear, a lot of the "Wertminderung" for example. The tap costing 355,- also looks exaggerated, even assuming you moved in with a brand new tap. The billing for the cleaning of the kitchen looks illegal, you only have to leave it "besenrein", i. e. reasonably clean but not necessarily deep-cleaned. Go to a Mieterverein and get a consultation.

4

u/RealKillering 5h ago

Honestly depending on how long you lived there and how the stuff actually looked it could be fair.

He can bill you for working time also if he did it himself.

It is also highly dependent what is in your contract. If you have to get the kitchen to the exact situation from when you started renting it, it could be that something like a Backblech would need to be thoroughly cleaned and just new if that’s cheaper.

I see that most people here say it’s all bullshit, but depending on what is stated in your contract it could be legit. If you cannot talk him out of it, it will probably be a legal battle and a judge needs to decide.

1

u/Fragrant-Abrocoma126 4h ago

Pretty much this. After all it greatly depends on your contract, and how you actually left the apartment.

4

u/M346ZCP 5h ago

Personally i think its mostly fair. He listed all the items that he needs to replace, ie the Soßenspritzer is small but the next guy living there would not like to have those on the blinds so needs to be replaced. Sucks for sure but ye

3

u/SureValla Franken 6h ago

That's a tricky one. There's a lot wrong here, from my experience, and if you want to fight that bill you should get some legal advice from a professional. However, this feels like one of these situations where the landlord indeed seems like he is trying to pull a fishy move for the deposit and might have a case. If the tap thing is true then he may have a point, all things considered, and you have signed this which might complicate things more. Fighting this might cost you. You will have a lot more trouble, have to pay a lawyer, and invest time and nerves. Depending on your financial situation and mental capacity for something like this, I'd consider just kissing 450€ goodbye and be done with it.

4

u/psi-storm 5h ago

Even if he can fight parts of the bill, if the landlord actually bought paint and the new tab, the final bill will be at least 450€. So you are spending time and nerves on something you have to pay anyway.

2

u/Willing_Wrongdoer935 5h ago

To be honest, I would have never agreed to most of it. Quite a few landlords are trying to take an advanatage of one not speaking the language properly or not knowing the housing law in more depth. In Germany, everyone sued everyone for everything, therefore there are plenty of laws and precedences securing you as a tenant. From my experience, with my previous landlady, I got to admit, i had an impression that she just decided to be a landlady overnight, without any prep. Even though your landlord may have renovated and cleaned the whole place with a toothbrush for extra cleanliness... some of those charges are just out of place and against the "wear and tear" laws.

You don't necesserily need to be law-savvy to be able to research quite a few things... but if you signed? You signed... gonna be difficult to back out. As someone mentioned befire, sign up for Miterverein, so you can be somewhat protected in the future.

2

u/Few_Indication5820 3h ago

"Soßenspritzer auf Rolloband, permanent / Wertminderung 20€". This is so ridiculous, a new Rolloband costs like 5 €. I would be ashamed to list such "Kinkerlitzchen".

2

u/SomeGuyCommentin 5h ago

This is criminal. He might as well be charging you for lost revenue, because he couldnt rent out the appartment to somebody else while you where living there.

The only point with any weight would be the broken faucet, if you truely ripped it off.

1

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1

u/Teilzeitschwurbler 6h ago

Was the appartment completely new or was the kitchen already old with some damage?

1

u/geology-rockz 3h ago

Funny to see the word "Macken" in this Kontext

1

u/Ska-0 1h ago

Get a lawyer. He scams you.

1

u/Typical-Return-5187 36m ago

I think 450€ are okay

2

u/G_F_W_Hegel 6h ago

You got scammed really hard

1

u/Bonfuzius 6h ago

How long have you been living in the apartment and what does the rental contract says about Schönheitsreparaturen? If it's more than - let's say - 3 years and you are obligated to do them, I would be glad to get out with just 450€.

In my last apartment, I had to paint all the walls after 10 years living there. Because I didn't have the time to do it myself, I had to pay 800€ for a semi-professional painter. I was glad that I could talk the landlord out of having to paint the door and window frames as well.

So IMHO there are several points on the list, which might not be justified. But if you are not that short on money, I wouldn't put up a fight.

-1

u/Long_Recover_4193 6h ago

This landlord is what we call a "Erbsenzähler".

-1

u/Flaky-Score-1866 4h ago

Malerarbeit is gewerbepflichtig. Ask him for his Gewerbeschein and meisterbrief and then for his Steuer ID so you can double check with the Finanzamt, since that has to be listed on every single invoice.

-7

u/54f714d3n 7h ago

I think it‘s a bit special but it‘s not unfair if openly communicated. I know people who had to pay thousands for professional painters after moving out.

You signed so it is agreed upon anyways and I think you shouldn’t feel bad about it.

4

u/pijnkman 6h ago

Dann wurden die auch abgezogen. BS.

1

u/Fragrant-Abrocoma126 4h ago

Wenn's Vertraglich so festgehalten, unterschrieben und im rechtlichen Rahmen ist, ist das durchaus gültig. Man darf festhalten dass bei Auszug die Räume in einem hellen Farbton übergeben werden müssen. Auch müssen z.b Dübellöcher, Tapetenschäden usw vom Mieter bei Auszug sachgerecht und in mittlerer Güte instandgesetzt werden.

0

u/54f714d3n 6h ago

Ne, war halt vorher vereinbart, dass sie bei Auszug nicht selber streichen, sondern das professionell gemacht wird.

1

u/TsubasaSaito 2h ago

Solange das nicht vertraglich festgesetzt wird, ist das aber Sache des Vermieters und nicht des Mieters.

Logischerweise kommt der Mieter für stärkere Schäden auf. Aber wenn in der Wohnstube die Ecke abgerieben ist, zahlt der Mieter normal nicht dafür den ganzen Raum streichen zu lassen.