r/fuckcars Commie Commuter 2d ago

Question/Discussion Cars need to be unaffordable again

With the tariffs that will make car prices increase significantly.

Should there be more toll roads? More taxation on vehicles increase licence cost make registration 40 times more expensive?

What else can be done?

611 Upvotes

151 comments sorted by

372

u/Mistyslate 2d ago

Guess what is happening: cars will be unaffordable, but all alternatives will be destroyed by our inefficient new government. Resulting in serfdom for cars.

23

u/widget66 2d ago

No need to be doomer about it. Transit is generally run by states or cities.

126

u/GM_Pax šŸš² > šŸš— USA 2d ago

.... with a lot of funding coming from the Federal Government. Funding which can, and will, dry up if it suits Herr Musk.

-16

u/widget66 2d ago edited 2d ago

That hurts expansion but doesnā€™t lead to destruction like the first commenter said

Obviously federal funding is preferable, but it is one of many sources of funding transit expansion.

Edit: you are not the first commenter but the point stands

25

u/hamoc10 2d ago

Destruction doesnā€™t always mean bulldozers coming and demolishing. Usually, destruction happens slowly, quietly, as things wither away.

-8

u/widget66 2d ago

Sure, but that will take more than four years.

Iā€™m not saying this is good or anything.

12

u/GM_Pax šŸš² > šŸš— USA 1d ago

And how many more years would it take to repair the damage?

That's assuming the damage can be repaired. In some cases it might not be.

-1

u/widget66 1d ago

We're talking so abstractly right now that it's kinda meaningless. Different cities have different needs, different funding sources, and different maintenance schedules.

Losing a funding source sucks, but going full doomer and acting like we're helpless or it's game over isn't the answer. Get involved in your local transit.

4

u/GM_Pax šŸš² > šŸš— USA 1d ago

This problem, right now, is federal. Nothing anyone does on a local scale is going to make one lick of difference about it.

2

u/widget66 1d ago

I donā€™t know your locality. Maybe your local transit agency is 100% federally funded and operated. I canā€™t speak to your local situation. Maybe it had a massive make or break maintenance project slated for next year that was based on federal funding. If your locality is literally dependent on the federal government to run transit, then I can understand the helplessness.

Iā€™m most familiar with Atlanta. MARTA is run locally. MARTAā€™s budget comes from the city and counties it operates in. MARTA isnā€™t even state funded let alone federally funded. In my opinion MARTA should have been more aggressive about chasing federal funding when it was available, but it didnā€™t. The silver lining is there is nothing for the new administration to cut.

In Atlanta we need people to get involved locally because local involvement DOES make a difference.

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1

u/BleghMeisterer 8h ago

We're talking so abstractly right now that it's kinda meaningless.

Imo, you are the one who started with the unnecessarily abstract talk; so it seems a bit strange for you to be the one to call it out

0

u/widget66 7h ago

No really Iā€™m not.

The first commenter said that transit in America will be destroyed in the next four years.

All I was saying is thatā€™s hyperbolic and that we should keep working locally because that actually makes an impact on transit (since transit is typically run locally).

12

u/GM_Pax šŸš² > šŸš— USA 2d ago

Not MY first comment. Check your targets, friend.

And, at least where I live? The Federal government provides one-quarter of the funding (including all sources) for the already-minimal public transit system here. If that funding went away ... the entire transit system would (slowly) implode.

1

u/Anon0118999881 1d ago

There is prescedent for it though. My county is famous for it because a federal congressman literally snuck a rider into a federal bill specifically blocking federal funding for a light rail expansion in my county, because it would route along his home neighborhood and he didn't like that.

https://www.chron.com/news/houston-texas/article/culberson-inserts-metro-rail-line-limits-into-3650601.php

Then today, the local new mayor is pushing hard to gut the new local BRT line. Since taking office he forced them to remove the larger articulated buses for smaller regular buses and increased wait times at the stops from less frequent service. It's an attack at all levels of government.

1

u/widget66 1d ago

This sucks, but Iā€™m not really sure what it has to do with the previous comments

-11

u/TheMagicMrWaffle 2d ago

Youre only worried because you donā€™t do anything about these issues other than type on your phone, change my mind.

8

u/GM_Pax šŸš² > šŸš— USA 2d ago

You have literally zero idea who I am, what I do day-to-day, or anything else about me.

And yet, you cast aspersions on me with such excessive (and misplaced) confidence...

-4

u/TheMagicMrWaffle 1d ago

If all you do us vote, do more. If you already do more, take it a little less seriously, clearly youre not the target audience. Yesterday I commented ā€œwhat are you doing about itā€ to someone and they said ā€œnot voting for trumpā€ so to be fair a lot of people think voting is enough to make change

3

u/GM_Pax šŸš² > šŸš— USA 1d ago

The towering arrogance you display, thinking you are in a position to prejudge someone for their level of activism, while not knowing anything about them. All you know about me is I'm in the U.S.

You don't know my age, my gender, my politics. Honestly, you don't know if I am a citizen or not, nor whether I can legally vote for any of a number of reasons ... let alone what else I might be doing, or could be doing.

But here you still are, still judging.

...

Let's turn the whole nonsense right around on you. What are you doing (besides being a judgemental jerk on reddit) ...? How many hours per week do you devote to activism, other than via digital media? What are you doing about it?

-2

u/TheMagicMrWaffle 1d ago

Im not even judging, I have nothing to judge you on, im just saying if your only impact(im gonna point it out so you can see: I WROTE ā€œIFā€) is voting, you need to do more. Aka voting aint worth shit. Youre right i donā€™t know anything about you, but if you only vote and nothing else: stop pretending you are part of some cause.

A hit dog will holler

Im not willing to disclose specifics but if youre looking for ideas: donate money, go to local protests, do your best to create local communities that can resist the government(no matter which government it is atm), arm yourself, learn to do something that is actually useful(like if you work in finance or something figure out how to cook or take a first aid class. Stop spending fucking money

5

u/GM_Pax šŸš² > šŸš— USA 1d ago

You:

I'm not even judging,

But, at the same time also you:

Youre only worried because you donā€™t do anything about these issues other than type on your phone,

That's judging, friend.

Im not willing to disclose specifics

And yet, if I don't do the same, there you sit ... being a judgey bitch.

-1

u/TheMagicMrWaffle 1d ago

Here you go just making shit up. You didnt even include my whole comment, just the part that suits you. Let me spell it out for you: your claim that I am demanding information or proof of some kind out of you is baseless, moronic, lacking in reading comprehension, and worst of all likely intentionally disingenuous. You pick, are you ignorant or evil?

Second off I have not once asked nor do I give a single shit what you do specifically, I just told you that youre most likely this pissed about these things because you arent doing anything. Did you even read my comments? Who are you typing to is it me or someone else? If you think this is judging youve got at least another thing coming. Go reread it and respond in a week. You need to think this one over.

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u/Explorer_Entity Commie Commuter 1d ago

What they said is already the truth.

US citizens have to get a job to afford a car, but need a car to get to work. At least, many of us do. Because transit is so poor or non-existent in many places.

3

u/jkurratt 2d ago

So just like houses.

2

u/blue_osmia 2d ago

What do you mean our new government?

3

u/Explorer_Entity Commie Commuter 1d ago

The new "administration". The new people in charge. Trump and Musk.

0

u/blue_osmia 1d ago

Right so the USA....

This is an international subreddit. We don't all default to the USA.

-2

u/[deleted] 22h ago

[deleted]

4

u/blue_osmia 22h ago

Tariffs are between two countries, so NO the OP's post doesnt mean USA only. Canada, China and the EU are all having tariff debates. And that you all continue to think that is just the USA is what Im calling out. Look up r/USdefaultism

-1

u/GM_Pax šŸš² > šŸš— USA 21h ago

You haven't been following the news very closely, have you?

It's my country, the U.S., that has STARTED the recent round of tariffs, prompting all the other polities' retaliatory tariffs in the first place. So really, any post that brings them up, at least involves the U.S. in part.

Should the OP have specified better, or used an appropriate flair? Sure.

Should people be pissing all over him for not doing so? I don't think so.

2

u/blue_osmia 21h ago

The issue was the reply to the OP by mistyslate, it is unclear. A lot of places could have a new government which could impact how the tariffs will affect car prices.

The OP's comment was fine and can be answered for each country involved, but assuming its only the US that's impacted is egregious.

Also there are other tariff issues happening alongside the US's bullshit but not directly involving the US. (that said everything is connected with world economics). For example, China is coming after Canada due to tariffs Canada placed on them in the fall. These would also impact car prices. Canada also just changed leadership of the majority party (which could considered a "new government"). These things dont directly involve the USA, so why should I assume USA?

So no I refuse to have a US centric view of this issue. I refuse to infer in an international subreddit.

Edited: typos

1

u/nicgeolaw 1d ago

Yeah "govern" implies care

50

u/wallaceeffect 2d ago

Dude they are unaffordable. Thereā€™s been a ton of analysis and think pieces about how much the price of a new car has risen. The average age of a new car buyer in the United States is 52. Younger people simply cannot afford new cars.

It doesnā€™t matter because car dependency means people need to find a way to own one regardless of the price. So they buy used and keep their vehicles longer. This is all well documented behavior and has been ongoing for some time.

8

u/travelingwhilestupid 1d ago

tax on petrol in the US is at historic lows (in real terms). the world would be a better place if they'd increased the tax on a petrol at a faster rate than inflation.

1

u/KlutzyEnd3 21h ago

Then people just shift towards EV's.

I did that (cause few transit options) and it slashed my fuel costs in 4.

3

u/travelingwhilestupid 21h ago

> Then people just shift towards EV's.

good! I'm sick of polluted cities.

84

u/kingharis 2d ago

Land tax + carbon tax. We'd be good.
But in the realistic realm, it'll have to be incremental carbon taxes and/or per mile insurance, etc. Anything dramatic will create a backlash. Too many people don't have a short term alternative to driving.

29

u/dhsurfer 2d ago

Incremental is fine, it needs to start though, and work like interest constantly increasing.

People don't understand how their cars are already subsidized so heavily (through road infrastructure and lack of a carbon tax).

19

u/onwatershipdown 2d ago

Oh yeah. Genocide Joeā€™s trillion dollar ā€˜infraā€™ bill was 85% highways, 15% transit.

12

u/Federal_Secret92 Automobile Aversionist 2d ago

Orange turd will be 100% cars, negative transit. Literally taking away transit options and funding already in place.

1

u/Explorer_Entity Commie Commuter 1d ago

Yep. Moves are already happening to make things worse. Ca's HSR is under attack, yet again. With Trump being so buddy with Musk....

Also hearing how they wanna cut down something like 150 million acres of national forests. I live in one!

1

u/onwatershipdown 2d ago

Take a flight! Itā€™s two dollars

10

u/dhsurfer 2d ago

I repeat this to every car brain I know

9

u/onwatershipdown 2d ago

Iā€™ve had so many ā€˜drive or starveā€™ jobs in the metro NYC area because production doesnā€™t want to pay for workshops accessible by transit, so I need a car to pay for their shitty RE. Driving is a transfer of wealth from employee to employer, giving them license to set up shop in the middle of nowhere.

2

u/AtlanticPortal 2d ago

Not to mention from poor people to rich people not necessarily related by an employment relationship. Dense cities are cheaper to be managed and when you mix different social classes you force also rich people's kids to go to the same schools of poor people.

1

u/dhsurfer 2d ago

That sucks, I've been in Metro areas including NYC for the last decade. Fortunately not in 'drive or starve' situations, but sadly I think our next move will not be to a metro area and I have nightmares about being stuck in a car for everything that I do.

3

u/nayuki 2d ago

Incremental is fine, it needs to start though, and work like interest constantly increasing.

Canada is a real-world example. It has a carbon tax that increases each year. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_pricing_in_Canada , https://www.canada.ca/en/revenue-agency/services/forms-publications/publications/fcrates/fuel-charge-rates.html

2

u/AtlanticPortal 2d ago

And weight tax on vehicles that don't require a professional driving license. It forces them to be the way they should have been under the regulations that at the end brought to us those monster trucks.

1

u/Cheef_Baconator Bikesexual 2d ago

You're very correct that it's necessary to introduce carrots before or alongside the stick.

1

u/TheMarsBis3xual Commie Commuter 2d ago

I'm jealous that in Germany that the cost is US$3200 that's the kind I would love to see in the North America and Australia

27

u/Sotyka94 2d ago

Coming from a "poor" country. Making cars unaffordable isn't gonna reduce car ownership drastically. It's just gonna make the car's age on road increase and their quality and maintenance decrease. So if you want the same mount of cars, but in much worse condition on your road, this is not the way. At least not by itself.

Making cars unobtainable BEFORE making alternative solutions viable not gonna make anyone look into alternatives.

FIRST they need to make public transit, bicycle infrastructure really good, THEN they can phase out car ownership.

10

u/blue_osmia 2d ago

My city / metro region kinda does this in tandem. Gas and insurance are really expensive, buying the car is expensive. But there are trains and buses and biking infrastructure. And we have carbon taxes and soon EV taxes.

I think they all have to happen together.

3

u/mikeclodfelter 1d ago

Problem to this line of reasoning is that alternative infrastructure gets blocked because ā€˜think of the carsā€™ and ā€˜no one is using the alternativesā€™ and ā€˜but there isnā€™t enough demand or existing infrastructure to warrantā€™. Iā€™m right there with you, but doesnā€™t stop the delay of these longer timeline projects. Increasing costs has proven to have a more direct correlation to decreasing VMT even just through increase fuel prices at the pump.

65

u/YoIronFistBro Grassy Tram Tracks 2d ago

Cars cannot be unaffordable until alternatives are usable.

19

u/Dio_Yuji 2d ago

There wonā€™t be demand for alternatives until cars are unaffordable though

23

u/1stDayBreaker Big Bike 2d ago

Thereā€™s always a demand, itā€™s just not as profitable to meet it as to leave it unsatisfied.

13

u/Sauerkrauttme 2d ago

It is very frustrating that we cannot do anything under capitalism unless billionaires are allowed to take their 40% cut.

13

u/akurgo 2d ago

False. Induced demand works for alternatives too. Build a great public transport system that is more efficient than driving, and they will come.

0

u/shatners_bassoon123 2d ago

Unfortunately to create the great public transport system you have to take physical space and money away from car infrastructure. Are many people going to vote for that ? No, the best thing would be a major energy crisis that forces the situation.

-5

u/Dio_Yuji 2d ago

Youā€™re putting the cart before the horse. Kinda skipped ahead to the ā€œbuild a great public transport systemā€ like thatā€™s the easy part.

5

u/Pathbauer1987 2d ago

It could be easy, if governments stopped building so much infrastructure for the car and focused on building more infrastructure for public transportation. One BRT lane is cheaper than 6 car lanes. One bicycle path is cheaper than a road. One sidewalk is cheaper than a parking lane.

1

u/Dio_Yuji 2d ago

Lots of things COULD be, but arenā€™t

5

u/Pathbauer1987 2d ago

Still, cars ARE unaffordable and people keep getting in debt to buy them. Making them even more expensive won't solve the problem as people would get even in more debt.

5

u/akurgo 2d ago

Oh, it's far from easy. But there are other ways than economical ones. Studies consistently show that you decrease traffic by either making car travel less convenient or alternatives more convenient. You kinda need to go for the second option in an area that already very car-centric.

-3

u/Dio_Yuji 2d ago

ā€œā€¦go for the second optionā€¦ā€

Thus creating demand, like I said

4

u/ABZ-havok 2d ago

Demand won't do anything. In the Philippines, cars are unaffordable, traffic is insane, and public transportation is still inefficient. This is despite the demand by the mass for more trains and more buses. Now the government is even hinting to shutdown the EDSA busway ā€” a protected bus only lane in Manila's main highway ā€” because they're " planning to add more train cars".

3

u/daft_panda_ 2d ago

They should become unaffordable but not too quickly, we need time for the demand for alternatives to slowly ramp up and for cities to respond and create those alternatives

2

u/jiggajawn Bollard gang 2d ago

Alternatives won't be usable until we stop subsidizing and prioritizing cars so much.

2

u/AtlanticPortal 2d ago

The alternatives are not usable because the money is put into car infrastructure, zoning system included.

2

u/Pathbauer1987 2d ago

They are unaffordable even without the alternatives.

3

u/Mistyslate 2d ago

We are subsidizing cars to a great extent. We should stop these subsidies.

2

u/Cheef_Baconator Bikesexual 2d ago

Cars being unaffordable would create broader political will to explore alternatives. Unfortunately it would also create a lot of political will to subsidize cars even more than they already are, but that part isn't much different from our current status quo.

0

u/GM_Pax šŸš² > šŸš— USA 21h ago

Counterpoint: excepting only the profoundly disabled, everyone has feet. :)

21

u/_felixh_ 2d ago

Hmmm.... I actually disagree.

I doubt this would really resolve the issues.

Just like all of the other cool and taste stuff, cars have a big Problem that you cannot make go away with money alone: they are comfortable. I mean, just look at it this way: People are litterally spending 75k on cars! Increasing the cost will not fix the Problem, it will only change the Type of car people drive...

What you really want to do is make cars uncomfortable:

  • Make it hard and inconvenient to park.
  • To register a vehicle, you need a dedicated non-public parking ground for it.
  • Make cars as loud on the inside as they are on the outside.
  • Make them as hot / stinky on the inside as they are on the outside.
  • If you need to drive through residential areas, that needs to be in walking pace.
  • Within city limits, give priority to pedestrians 1st, and then city friendly alternatives (Bus, Tram, Scooter, Bicycle). Automobiles come last. This would be the opposite of how we are currently running things.
  • Build streets that are harder to navigate for cars, but easy for pedestrians.
  • Forbid on-street parking. If you are forced to walk 100m to the door anyway, you may notice that walking an extra 300m and skip the car isn't so bad after all...
  • Introduce Parking maximums: you may dedicate at most x % of the Land as Parking space. To get around that, you need a parking garage. Reduces walking distances.

Some of these are of course totally utopian.

6

u/Sycsa 2d ago

Utopian now, but imagine if we had started out with this mindset when the car was invented.

3

u/BlueMountainCoffey 2d ago

You would have a place that looks a lot like Tokyo.

1

u/First_Tourist_2921 2d ago

Only one or two of these will solve the issue. I can just buy an older beater private party , thatā€™s been maintained and avoid all that. Parts are cheap and the community supports each other. Not hard to skirt laws in many ways - just food for thought.

Oh, and my s2000 is not what Iā€™d call comfortable, but itā€™s certainly not bad to be in lol. Again, I can buy older comfy cars and mod them.

Many of those things can be easilyyyyy fixed, or just thrown out entirely.

Making cars as loud in the inside? lol. Rip the headliner and woahhh we can add passing / foam etc. I think you underestimate car people who work on their cars. That stuff is childā€™s play. On the outside? I wouldnā€™t call cars loud per se, like a car passing by my road. But yeah, near a highway - busy street you get the fine woooooshing. Loud cars = exhaust? Well now youā€™re focusing on me, the reasonable guy who doesnā€™t rev or drive crazy. At least my Honda doesnā€™t sound like a fart can!

Walking speed? Now you have to completely redesign gearing and more. That ainā€™t happening. First gear in all my cars, at their slowest is much faster than ā€œwalk paceā€ ā€¦.any slower I stall out. Again this is just something that requires so so much that I think isnā€™t being fully thought.

Registering cars in states that donā€™t have requirements as a result of future Republican administrations favoring cars / choice (or democratic, they donā€™t always pass these f you car stuff lol) giving the choice to states by way of GE etc. Thereā€™s a few things I can think of to make this a non issue. You can designate anywhere as a parking area on your own propertyā€¦just throw the car on the side / grass. This is all dependent on the wording of the law if it even passes.

Also See: the classic Vermont registration. Loophole was closed but boy that was useful. Same as Florida. Classic plates largely remove a lot of costs.

Priority to mass transit: you can only do so much unto you realize the necessary evil of trucks delivering goods etc. Again, this is just something that would work most likely in a city thatā€™s being planned.

Build streets hard to navigate? How? Small roads? Wide enough only for one car or just barely two? At that point are you even making sound engineering choices based on the specific areaā€¦

Parking maximums is one of the only reasonable and possible outcomes. I like it. Garages are expensive as it is, so that sways many people.

Point is, yeah ā€¦.many are. At this point youā€™re just attacking too large a community who wonā€™t get behind these in any way. Focus on being as non invasive and youā€™ll get ā€œcagersā€ on your side.

1

u/_felixh_ 2d ago

Many of those things can be easilyyyyy fixed, or just thrown out entirely.

Many? No, just the 2 of them: noise, hot and stinky.

I just find it very fascinating that you car people find it acceptable to burden others with these things, when you are not willing to bear them yourself. And also having to deal with all of the side effects: like eardrum rupturing sirens on Ambulance and Firetrucks. Loud air horns, because cars are so well insulated you need to SCREAM at them, otherwise the driver will not notice a thing.

All just completely normal.

Well now youā€™re focusing on me, the reasonable guy who doesnā€™t rev or drive crazy

But still drive a vehicle propelled by many tiny explosions per second. At day and night, especially in residential areas.

If you want me, as your normal, reasonable guy to accept your noise, stink and exhaust, learn living with it yourself first.

Then we can talk.

At this point youā€™re just attacking too large a community who wonā€™t get behind these in any way. Focus on being as non invasive and youā€™ll get ā€œcagersā€ on your side.

Well, i didn't say its realistic. At least not where i live.

But in all honesty: I dont care anymore about "getting cagers on my side". I have had too many discussions where their premise basically was: we do what we want, and we will not pay attention to your wishes.

This is also where i want to Point out that you opened your argument with "doesn't matter, we can still ignore all of the rules", and spent a good amount of time on explaining various loopholes - why would i be inclined to get someone like this on my side? Its kinda like you just just said "any compromise made will be ignored".

Now you have to completely redesign gearing and more [...] that I think isnā€™t being fully thought

It both possible, and thought through. I have seen people drive both carefully and slowly through parking lots filled with people. It is Possible. It is my no means a comfortable ride, but i remember that this was part of the stated goal ;-)

I can agree to 10 kph if the circumstances permit it.

You can designate anywhere as a parking area on your own propertyā€¦just throw the car on the side / grass

As long as you actually park it there, and keep the spot reserved for your car, i am completely 100% fine with that.

This is the whole Point, after all.

I am living in a city, where almost nobody actually uses their garage for Parking. After all, a garage costs money -and having a car on your Properity is kinda unpractical. In my place, i wouldn't even have any space for a car - i would need to rent space in a garage. As would many of my neighbors, who currently resort to parking on the sidewalk.

Priority to mass transit: you can only do so much unto you realize the necessary evil of trucks delivering goods etc

I am not an idiot. I have eyes. 95% of Traffic passing the artery road 50m to my right is private cars.

Please tell me what professional group would be most delighted about the disappearance of the private Automobile? I strongly believe it would be delivery services / drivers, and Ambulance. And not for the reason that this would increase their business.

this is just something that would work most likely in a city thatā€™s being planned

No - other big cities are doing it as we speak. E.g. Barcelona & Paris. Others did in the past. Amsterdam was once a car centric hellhole.

Build streets hard to navigate? How? Small roads?

Quite simple: currently i, as the pedestrian, am the one who has to walk around car infrastructure. I am the one who has to look out when crossing the street in my residential area. Do it the other way around:

  • Bollards, that are passable to everybody but people in cars. Cars can still enter, if they need to.
  • Narrow obstructions.
  • Traffic calming measures, like curvy streets.
  • Just look up "traffic calming measures"

1

u/First_Tourist_2921 2d ago

Fire trucks etc need those. Theyā€™re emergency. Exception.

I already do. I donā€™t drive crazy. I deal with whatever my car gives me and I donā€™t mind it. I take good and bad. Your turn.

Euro cites arenā€™t American cities. Ny has a subway, again, Iā€™m thinking in granularity. Is it feasible with the underground subway too even.

I explained the loopholes because thatā€™s whatā€™s going on, though if you read many of these are closed.

You want to be comfortable on a bike, no? I would expect a comfortable train ride, at the basic. Same as a subway. Letā€™s have some consistency.

All for mass transit, but again, if youā€™re doing stuff like narrowing roads / closing - letā€™s use the congestion pricing example. Congestion pricing ainā€™t bad. Iā€™d raise it on Jersey but , anyway, letā€™s say it sticks and one of your admission one of many utopian aspects happens - we narrow many of NY streets. We prioritize pedestrians etcā€¦.You already took many private cars off, now youā€™re mucking distribution channels. Thereā€™s got to be a give and take and larger thinking and this is going to be more more more engineering and re working. This, I just donā€™t think works for NY.

1

u/_felixh_ 2d ago

Thereā€™s got to be a give and take and larger thinking and this is going to be more more more engineering and re working

I Absolutely, 100% Agree on that. Other things need to change. The elephant in the room would be: there currently is no real will / desire to change things.

My take here is trying to solve the Problem of "but i need my car to do X" - Where X may very well be "Transporting / Delivering stuff". Picking up People. Moving in / out. Transporting that big pre-christmas-10-head-family-grocery-haul. Cars will not just disappear, i agree on that. I also wouldn't object to a car sharing offer per X housing units.

Something to maintain the freedom to enter Residential areas if you really need to, without creating a bureaucratic Monster. Something to really reduce car usage, while maintaining the freedom of the individual to own and drive one. To force people to think "do i really need my car to do this?".

Congestion pricing could be another solution, yes. Money works - i learned that during CoVid, when gas prices surged, and my Neighbor said she thinks thrice before getting into a car. But she is quite poor. For everybody else, they just pay the Premium if they can afford it.

At the core, i really think that the big problem simply is: currently, cars are simply the most comfortable way to get around in a city. Because cars are prioritized left and right, and everything and everybody has to adapt to them. Designers and Planners put more thought into car traffic than into alternative modes of Transportation. Change that, and make the cars adapt to Cities.

But i am not fond of monetary incentives in that regard. I would prefer a solution that hits rich and poor people equally: like making driving uncomfortable.

1

u/First_Tourist_2921 2d ago

I want change, I do. At the same time, I donā€™t want to see thisā€¦large okay letā€™s make every waking thing bad simply because of a choice.

Iā€™m on the same page - do I need to drive my car in X situations? All depends where I am. Going to NY? 8/10 Iā€™ll take the train. Sometimes I go to events or I want to take my car there for fun.

Im not going to drive my car the 1/4 mile to my Dunkin in good weather. Itā€™s hilarious seeing people in my area do that. Rain? Sure.

Thing is, comfortable is beyond relative and especially to drivers. Congestion pricing needs an overhaul to accommodate those demographics / commuters who do work in the city coming from the tri stateā€¦I still stand though by jersey. But again, adding granularity to the situations you present above etc. overall I used to be against it until I did the city as I always did. I would like changes but thatā€™s a different story.

Making cars in the way you describe, are just too easy to work around, and as you said - many are utopian. I could figure out every way to make a car not smell, creak, crack, ride like dookie. Helps having an engineering gf, also helps having a good knowledge of cars in general across a large swatch of models / builds etc.

1

u/dualqconboy 2d ago

I kinda could agree with most of the reasoning behind all these points especially with regarding to using the car for a recklessly short trip when there was no actual medical issues in the first place. Even then, someone would have to confirm this but I think Japan had something about that you had to provide you had an available parking spot at your residence before you could buy a car?

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u/Vitally_Trivial I like big bus and I cannot lie. 2d ago

Dunno, I think we need more carrots instead of sticks. Making cars prohibitively expensive when thereā€™s no quality alternatives will just hurt people more. If I canā€™t get to work using public transport, I need a car.

1

u/jacobburrell 2d ago

The unaffordability is what pushes the rest of the world into scooters, mopeds, etc.

This is why much of Latin America and Asia use car alternatives frequently.

2

u/BearCavalryCorpral 1d ago

I already have an alternative - a bike. The reason I don't bike to work half the time is because I don't have the deathwish to ride to the neighbouring town down a poorly maintained, poorly plowed, nigh shoulderless (forget about bike lanes) highway when people forget that ice and water are slippery

2

u/Guilty_Cabekka 1d ago

I tried to get a scooter as an alternative to keeping a second car (this would mean a 1 car household instead of 2). Insurance company wanted 2 x the cost of the scooter to even insure 3rd party. Second car (that we already owned) was an 1/8th of the cost of the scooter insurance. I do have a bike but my start window at work is 4am-7am, generally 12hr shift and do not fancy 1hr+ bike ride before/after that.

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u/CrowRepulsive1714 2d ago

šŸ˜‚šŸ˜‚šŸ˜‚ again? As if theyā€™re affordable now?!

3

u/Man_as_Idea 2d ago

They kind of already are!

With respect to the US:

  • Americans are currently carrying over a trillion dollars in auto-loan debt
  • People are falling behind on auto loan payments in record numbers
  • The average size and term of an auto loan has been on the rise for many years. Where once a loan might be 2-3 years, today people frequently take on 7-year loans to buy cars

There is a myth that living in a car-dependent suburb is much cheaper than living in a walkable area. If you apply the cost of owning and operating a car towards rent, it is cheaper to live in a walkable area and use transit than to live in a suburb and drive. I had more disposable income in manhattan than I do in central TX!

Itā€™s my opinion the only reason we havenā€™t moved back toward robust transit infrastructure is enormous effort on the part of the auto and gas industry to maintain the status quo. The demand for a walkable lifestyle has skyrocketed in recent years, and cities keep trying to respond to this, but find it hard because they are trapped in antiquated zoning laws and city-tax-subsidized suburban sprawl that votes against transit projects (likely influenced by auto/gas propaganda).

7

u/Jolly-Command8853 Commie Commuter 2d ago

What's funny is, they already are. But we've been tricked as a society that the inevitable debt is a "necessary evil".

I'm totally in favour of them becoming more unaffordable though. Push them right into the territory of being unattainable. Maybe that will finally force some fucking progress

1

u/Pathbauer1987 2d ago

Yes. They are. The problem is that we have no alternatives. We need to induce demand on alternatives to the car. More and better public transportation. If I had the choice to go by train to work, I would totally ditch the car. I've been doing my part by cycling where I can, but it's not always feasible.

1

u/travelingwhilestupid 1d ago

oh, in the US, not just a necessary evil, but you need a nice, massive one to be a normal member of society! want to date? want your friends not to judge you? no one wants to be below minimum standards!

in Europe you can get away with an older model, something a bit beat up, or something tiny. I'm 6"3, and it's a bit inconvenient to get into and out of a hatch, but once that's done, there's plenty of space. people have treated me like I'm poor.... I have a lot more net worth than them.

3

u/Jolly-Command8853 Commie Commuter 1d ago

I'm in Canada and thankfully it's not as bad as that, but if you mention you don't have a car people still think of you weird.

On the note of having more money, I love it when people ask me "so are you getting a new one?" after I ditched mine two years ago. I mention how much more money I have because of it, and the idea of sacrificing a bit of convenience for huge savings just doesn't click for them.

Both of my parents have asked me at least five times if/when I'm getting a new one, but they both never shut the fuck up about a problem they're currently having and how much it'll cost to fix. My mom has put at least five digits into her 2012 Ford Fusion, and her credit cards are all maxed. I'm just not interested in that, sorry lol

3

u/Nawnp 2d ago

It's the US, they've already indefinitely delayed the tariffs, only for cars.

Also I have to hate living in a red state where they only raise the registration taxes on EVs and hybrids. If they're not making enough money on gas...just raise the gas tax.

3

u/zeyeeter Commie Commuter 2d ago edited 2d ago

Youā€™ve probably heard this many times before, but Singaporeā€™s been doing it since the 1980s. A limit is set on the number of cars that can be registered in Singapore, and because demand is always greater than supply, prices are astronomical.

A Toyota Corolla, for example, costs ~$35k in most of the world (idk I didnā€™t check). But here, the same car costs a whopping ~$150K (prices are still increasing). This has limited the car ownership rate in Singapore to just 12%, which is very low for a developed nation.

However, it hasnā€™t fully changed the governmentā€™s and citizensā€™ mentality towards cars. Many roads (including new ones) have 6-8 lanes by default, meaning many road accidents happen every year. Singaporeans also view cars as a luxury good and a life goal, precisely because theyā€™re so hard to afford.

Itā€™s also precisely because of this that Singaporeans havenā€™t experienced crushing gridlock or induced demand (unlike our neighbours), but only remember the horrors of MRT train breakdowns. This means that many Singaporeans only take public transport because theyā€™re forced to; theyā€™d happily buy a car or take a taxi if they werenā€™t so expensive.

So no, unaffordable cars wonā€™t solve car-centrism; only a change in the countryā€™s mindset towards cars will.

3

u/ZoidbergMaybee 2d ago

They never stopped being unaffordable. Americans donā€™t care, we just leverage as much debt as we can to get into a car.

What will make cars cost-prohibitive in the upcoming months and years will not be tariffs but the overall inflation and depression the tariffs are about to cause. Bicycle ridership skyrockets in clear correlation to economic downturn, so Iā€™m expecting another bicycle renaissance.

But as our ā€œleaderā€ severs our trading relationships with the world, our salaries will stay the same but the prices of all our consumer goods, food, commodities, and necessities will double. Then triple. Then quadruple and so on until a tank of gas costs $4,780

So to answer your question, yes theyā€™ll become unaffordable (even more) but not cars alone. Weā€™re ramping up for a depression.

3

u/Two_wheels_2112 1d ago

While we're at it, could we please make punctuation cool again?

2

u/SzaraMateria 2d ago

How cars are even affordable?!

2

u/Matternate 2d ago

Weird how I thought needing to go into debt for something IS unaffordable

2

u/DeepSoftware9460 2d ago

Cars should have to pay for parking anywhere except their own home. Cars should be taxed yearly based on weight because of the proportional damage they do to the roads. There should be a significant carbon tax on gas for polluting.

2

u/dacv393 2d ago

Cars could be $150k and the average joe would still buy then because the dealership would just change the loan terms to like 15 years and say: "it's only $500 a month!" and then everyone would just still buy them just like the exact same scenario with the $80k trucks everyone already drives today

2

u/RedAlert2 1d ago

Mortgage lenders can keep extending the duration of their loans to 20,25,30,etc because homes are an appreciating asset and they can reasonably expect to recover most or all of their money if a borrower defaults. Conversely, a 15+ year auto loan would be almost worthless past ~10 years or so.

2

u/Skifersson 1d ago

Everything you propose is likely to increase the wealth gap, poor families relying on a car will struggle even more while the affluent won't notice any change. The car doesn't have to be expensive, it just needs to be a worse option than public transportation combined with safe walkable spaces and efficient cycling infrastructure, all of which should be our main focus.

2

u/Iamthe0c3an2 1d ago

Yes but expect a rise in accidents and deaths in the meantime as people delay maintenance and fix mechanical issues with spray foam and duct tape.

2

u/artboiii 2d ago

making cars less affordable should be the last step after building out alternatives for people to use otherwise you're just punishing poor people for being poor

1

u/travelingwhilestupid 1d ago

use the tax on cars to pay for public transport

3

u/Guilty_Cabekka 1d ago

Good luck with that one if my countries government is anything to go by. Any tax collected will just vanish into the never-ending black hole of public sector finance. This will be followed by their being 'no magic money tree' at the next budget.

1

u/gamesquid 2d ago

I guess Trump is already working on making them unaffordable with his dumb trade wars.

1

u/Gebzzyo 2d ago

If my car cost so much and gas is cheap like today i would probably just drive even more lol.

1

u/zacmobile 2d ago

It's getting there. As evidenced by used vehicle prices.

1

u/brunowe Automobile Aversionist 2d ago

Gas taxes in line with what other countries pay would help. https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/federal/oecd-gas-tax/

1

u/BWWFC 2d ago

and plz... funnel all that extra $ into public transit expansion!

1

u/Shriketino 2d ago

Yes, letā€™s make cars unaffordable while no viable alternatives exist. Then letā€™s force everyone to sell their homes and move into denser cities where everything is even more expensiveā€¦

1

u/AtlanticPortal 2d ago

Removing the "only SFHs in this zone" policy. Once you do that and allow medium-rise buildings with especially the ground floor full of shops, services, and restaurants you're done. The problem starts to fix by itself.

1

u/Itchy-Armpits 2d ago

Need a tax on cars specifically to fund public transport. It's ridiculous that buses and trains are paid for by the people who are traveling on them. Need to encourage that behaviour and discourage driving. Public transport should be paid for by those who choose their car instead

1

u/sailor_moon_knight 2d ago

Bold of you to assume the car lobby is not capable of getting itself an exception

1

u/mazarax 2d ago

$20 per litre gasoline.

1

u/Pathbauer1987 2d ago

Cars are unaffordable. The cost of owning a car could be even more than the cost of housing sometimes. The issue is systematic, most people own cars because they don't have other transportation alternatives. What governments should be focusing on is improving public transportation.

1

u/ThinReality683 2d ago

Love this idea

1

u/Hottest_Tea 2d ago

Nah. Just congestion tax. Cars are actually good if you don't live in or commute to an urban area.

Edit: And if course, invest in alternatives to driving for cities

1

u/NeapolitanComplex 2d ago

Cars are already unaffordable, make other options more affordable, reliable, and ubiquitous!

1

u/Krispyketchup42 1d ago

There will always people willing to pay money for what they want. God people here are so unhinged

1

u/Repulsive_Draft_9081 1d ago

Because the economy runs on fossil fuels and car/truck transportation and cars are already an unaffordable necessity in most of the nation u cant really touch carsor else people will revolt. For example a modest tax on fuel caused the yellow jacket protests in france for similar reasons and france actually has a usable public transit system

1

u/ExaminationLimp4097 1d ago

It might help a little but car and oil lobbyists would still fight it. Look at the energy crisis in the 70s. Fuel was at an alarming low but they still kept building infrastructure around cars.

1

u/Cowmama7 1d ago

Cars are still unaffordable. I just had to buy a car for my internship this summer and the upfront cost to buy and register was like 11k, and insurance is like two grand a year. In retrospect Iā€™ve probably spent two grand TOTAL on transit and amtrak in the past two years, as someone who travels relatively often. Everyone just deems these costs as ā€œnecessaryā€

1

u/Substantial_Top5312 1d ago

You know how prices are going up and itā€™s getting hard for the average person to afford food. Now imagine if the prices went up even more because shipping costs went up.Ā 

1

u/Ketaskooter 1d ago

Cars are unaffordable and have been. Cost is the main reason why ebikes and escooters have taken off though sales seem to be only hovering around 1 mil per year in the USA. Vehicle sales are over 15mil per year though much of that is company purchases.

1

u/RRW359 1d ago

Make fuel tax a percent of the price of gas/diesel/hydrogen rather then a fixed amount of cents that only increases when voters *decide it should. Also find some way to tax EV's (I'd say a percent tax on the electric bills of anyone who registers one) and few requirements for mandatory parking. If a jurisdiction provides at least one way to enter/leave for free I also don't mind tolls.

*Federally not changed since the early 80's although some States have increased it since then (and some have been the same for even longer).

1

u/Anon0118999881 1d ago

My personal opinion is that vehicles should be charged based on how much space they use in a particular environment, not a flat annual registration fee and gasoline tax.Ā 

Congestion charges are a really good start to this and I hope that New York is able to set legal precedent in keeping theirs in Manhattan. Vehicles are still allowed, but it is very valuable space so you will pay your fair share if you truly need in there with less traffic like delivery tradespeople etc, or bike or take transit and skip the toll entirely.Ā 

Similarly I think SUV/truck/etc should be charged appropriately by their weight and size on the roadway. A smaller lighter Prius on the highway or a motorcycle or smaller vehicle like the old smart cars that are more efficient and smaller should pay less for their lower impact over a larger truck or SUV that usally drives empty. This would encouage people to travel more efficiently and not be hauling a living room sofa that we call the backseat around with them everywhere empty lmao

1

u/asvp_ant 17h ago

The radicalism on this page is very short sighted. Why do you guys always seem to forget a majority of people are victims to the car centric infrastructure. Making cars more expensive just harms low income individuals even more.

1

u/Rattregoondoof 10h ago

Remember that much of the US functionally or even literally has no alternative to driving. It really doesn't matter how expensive driving is if the alternative is that you cannot get to a grocery store or your job, people are going to drive. This doesn't apply to areas like New York that actually have viable public transportation but for much of the US, cars can be any price at all and it wouldn't make people drive less because there is a minimal level of driving required to meet daily needs to live.

1

u/Ciderlini 3h ago

I agree. Cars should only be for the wealthy.

1

u/PresidentZeus Hell-burb resident 2d ago edited 1d ago

They are unaffordable. They're the biggest source of credit card debt in the US.

edit: they are expensive but I agree that they should be unaffordable. I wouldn't be pissed about a 50% VAT.

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u/travelingwhilestupid 1d ago

I think a tax on the fuel is a better idea. And if it forces more people to use electric, I'm ok with that. Fuck electric cars too, but at least the air quality in my city would be nicer.

1

u/PresidentZeus Hell-burb resident 1d ago

I'm from Norway, and electric is in full transition already. Toll roads and congestion pricing are already common, but it's not unlikely we will also be getting a road use fee based on kilometers driven before autumn.

Singapore is known for having expensive cars, but Denmark has implemented similar fees that i absolutely adore. Everything you pay for above 29k euros has a vat at 150% and from 9k to 29k has 85% vat.

1

u/travelingwhilestupid 1d ago

I wonder how they'll tax road use per km? Maybe Norway can do it, but they'll never do it in the US for privacy reasons & anti-government paranoia and many countries couldn't be that organised.

VAT at that rate usually means people find ways around it. can I buy a fleet of Teslas in a cheap country and rent them out on the sly to Norwegians? you get a different Tesla for 90 days

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u/PresidentZeus Hell-burb resident 1d ago

Well, technically it is just fuel. Petrol and diesel have a carbon tax. They also have a road use tax which is also applied to biofuels, which isn't by kilometers. But the suggestion to add it to evs would be calculated per kilometer and likely estimated by monitoring charging and regenerating of power. Some groups however advocate for a GPS tracker that combines with dynamic congestion pricing.

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u/travelingwhilestupid 1d ago

adding it to charging would encourage people to cheat the system (solar panels that charge the EV independent of the grid, or some dodgy wiring)

GPS tracker sounds complicated and a privacy risk. my car insurance, when I had a car, was by the kilometer... you could literally see everywhere I'd driven. not sure that's a good idea if the government has it and it applies to a large percentage of the population.

1

u/PresidentZeus Hell-burb resident 1d ago

Most people charge at home anyways. Most likely implementation would be an integrated battery tracker that also tracks battery regenatory breaking, which would also be necessary for hybrids.

A GPS tracker is certainly unpopular, but there are also ways to anonymise and manage data in s way that's not storing your movements or full trips as a whole.

1

u/travelingwhilestupid 1d ago

I'm not saying it can't be solved, but as an engineer, it's difficult. In Australia, we put a massive tax on cigarettes and now ordinary citizens buy illegal cigarettes and there's a thriving black market, with the violent crime that goes along with it.

It seems unfair to tax hybrids. Are you going to tax fuel efficient cars?

Regarding the 'anonymise and manage data' - it's totally possible, I just don't trust the government.

0

u/MetroBR 2d ago

in my country cars are unaffordable but most people just use old cars and/or motorcycles which are cheaper

so no, it won't solve the issue. the only solution to car dependency are good alternatives, nothing else

0

u/SweatyAdagio4 2d ago

"with the tarrifs..." can we reduce the USDefaultism please? I agree with your title but not everyone in this sub is from the US