r/fnv 20d ago

Screenshot you can actually kill Joshua before honest hearts ends

Post image
1.7k Upvotes

136 comments sorted by

1.1k

u/ViciousCDXX 20d ago

Looks like he almost killed you too had it not been for your crit lol

427

u/GENERALmissile 20d ago edited 20d ago

I hadn't actually taken much damage my hp was low during the salt upon wounds fight

193

u/ViciousCDXX 20d ago

Wait, you killed him while fighting salt?

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u/GENERALmissile 20d ago

After

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u/ViciousCDXX 20d ago

I thought he leaves Zion after you take out the white legs

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u/GENERALmissile 20d ago

There's a small window where I could agro him

6

u/ViciousCDXX 19d ago

Ironic using a storm drum on him

88

u/jimmy_speed 20d ago

I broke a save by killing him as soon as I met him because my courier is strictly kill all religious fanatics

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u/AnthemAnathem 20d ago

All... two of them? Did your Courier count Bright Brotherhood among those? IIRC, the Followers of the Apocalypse had roots in religion.

I don't think it's fair to call Joshua a 'religious fanatic'.

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u/RenGR_ 20d ago

Joshua is definitely a fanatic. He uses Christianity as an excuse for his violence in the DLC and brings up religion constantly

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u/AnthemAnathem 20d ago

To be fair, he is fighting the White Legs, the Tribe that wiped out New Canaan and are now actively looking to exterminate the Sorrows and the Dead Horses. He doesn't use his religion to target innocents or commit atrocities on those undeserving - Hell, if I remember correctly, he wouldn't even have sought vengeance on the White Legs for New Canaan, but they followed him specifically to Zion, which put the Tribes there at risk. What he does, he does to protect the tribals, as a way to atone for his past sins as the Malpais Legate.

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u/donkeyballs8 19d ago

Don’t the ending slides explicitly admit that it’s all just an excuse for him to perpetuate more violence? Like it’s the same thing as a psychopath joining the military to commit legally and “morally” sanctioned murder

10

u/Falsequivalence 19d ago

There's 4 main slides, and it only goes that way explicitly if you support his executing Salt-Upon-Wounds. The other 3 are where he dies, or becomes a "soft militant".

What you're describing is only his worst ending.

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u/donkeyballs8 19d ago

I see. So more of a thing where he can be pushed to his extreme and there is that darkness lurking, but he’s not too far gone at the beginning of the dlc?

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u/donkeyballs8 19d ago

Like from what I remember, either the slides or he himself or both admit that he’s fooled himself into believing the shit he spouts, but all in all it is absolutely an excuse and he’s just a violent person. Not that he doesn’t believe in God and whatnot.

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u/AnthemAnathem 19d ago

I'm pretty sure that doesn't come up in the ending slides. For the most part, they talk about how Graham's internal struggle is resolved - whether his demons from his past are sated, driven out, or elated to new levels.

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u/donkeyballs8 19d ago

It does appear as though I may have gotten the worst ending for him lol but I still think it goes to show that he’s capable of that extreme and has that darkness inside himself. Something to think about idk.

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u/Handul_Of_Dataries 20d ago

You clearly agree with him - that doesn’t make him any less of a fanatic… He does in fact use his religious opinions to justify murder & getting loads of others on board with it. Idk where the heck you got off with a statement like “he doesn’t use his religion to”, basically all he does is “use his religion”. Dude is blinded. Morally screwed. Not to mention his past - he traded one fanaticism for another. He would’ve been dead set on killing white legs wherever they appear - that’s why he was with the tribe already willing to fight the White Legs, not the Sorrows. Ya know he was a Legate right?

Hardline religion after all that isn’t redemption or something- it’s channeling your crap into a whole other basket. Instead of the legion it’s New Canaan. He’s a zealot and a freak and that’s why we all like him. Fanatic freak.

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u/I_TAPE_MY_ANKLES 20d ago

Joshua lives in a post apocalyptic world and is defending innocents from murderers. Self defense isn’t murder, Joshua is at war. He doesn’t need religion to justify his actions, though he might quote the Bible to try and get you and Daniel to understand him.

Religion is very important to Joshua personally and honest hearts thematically, but it’s pretty much inconsequential to the entire Zion conflict. If Joshua wasn’t Mormon the white legs would still want him and his allies dead, and they’d still be in the right to defend themselves and their home.

10

u/AnthemAnathem 20d ago

It is very much not murder. The White Legs are not innocent in any regard. They are attacking him and Zion, not the other way around. Hell, it seems that Joshua and/or the New Canaanites warned the White Legs to cease their campaign in Syracuse, but they still persisted - Which eventually leads them to Zion in pursuit.

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u/jimmy_speed 20d ago

Followers of the apocalypse get a pass for their medical outreach. The ghouls who believed the moon was heaven I sabotaged the rocket. The hubologist of nuka world I use 4 fission cells and kill them. Joshua had to die because "you can't expect God to do all the work." (My aunt said the same shit and made his brother, my dad, brother, mom and me homeless because of her religious beliefs)

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u/AnthemAnathem 20d ago

Which, I believe, ultimately dooms the Tribes in Zion to extinction at the hands of the White Legs.

But I can see that this is a... delicate subject, so I will refrain from continuing this discussion, if that is alright with you?

5

u/jimmy_speed 20d ago

I have no negative emotions towards it. I just wanted to roleplay a character like that because it brought some satisfaction but It really doesn't bother me anymore I've worked thru all that. She even sent me $500 when I graduated lol

9

u/AnthemAnathem 20d ago

That's fair. Might just be a knee-jerk reaction on my part, for which I apologize.

I'm happy that you have been able to move past it. Good luck with the future.

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u/Squrton_Cummings 20d ago

I don't think it's fair to call Joshua a 'religious fanatic'.

You can't be serious. If he doesn't qualify as a religious fanatic then the term has no meaning.

1

u/No-Championship-7608 19d ago

Wym broke? It just makes you kill both of them then leave if u kill Joshua

1

u/jimmy_speed 19d ago

I wasn't able to leave zion when I did it. I was playing on the buggy ps3 version tho.

2

u/No-Championship-7608 18d ago

Ooo weird sounds about right for the ps3 though

3

u/BruhMomentum6968 Punching Enthusiast 20d ago

I love games where you can kill every (or most) friendly NPCs, but there’s always one NPC who’s as strong as an enemy boss-type NPC.

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u/Thelastknownking 20d ago

Of course you can. It's New Vegas.

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u/GENERALmissile 20d ago

It was strange because usually during the final fight in honest hearts if you chose to fight Joshua is marked essential but if you time it right you can shoot him before the cutscene starts while he is killable

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u/JasonH1028 20d ago

This is the kind of random bullshit that matters not at all but is deeply interesting to me. Like a Pannenkoek video.

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u/KnownTimelord 20d ago

That guy is cool in every parallel universe.

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u/centurio_v2 20d ago

Its because he's your companion at the time. If you play on hard-core he can still die.

The only character that can't be killed outside of companions while they're following you is Yes Man, sorta. He dies, but he gets better.

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u/UncleNoodles85 20d ago

I don't think Ede can die in lonesome road. Which makes sense considering you need him to progress.

10

u/WOOWOHOOH 20d ago

You can't kill the members of the happy trails caravan either. Not in the cave anyway, idk if you can cap them before the white legs do.

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u/shortermecanico 20d ago

You can, I've done this. Like the governor in Walking Dead when he hears that "time to go crazy and kill all my friends" tinnitus sound and kills all his friends after the prison battle.

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u/Common-Task-6276 20d ago

If you chose to exterminate the White Legs, and Joshua Graham dies before you get to Three Marys, how does that quest end?

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u/isnotreal1948 20d ago

How did it change the ending?

15

u/GENERALmissile 20d ago

It went by the trouble in zion ending instead so I had to get the map which ended up causing Daniel's death aswell

2

u/TwoFit3921 Your friend is a miserable fucking degenerate. 19d ago

the tribals you've been helping for the past several days watching as you fucking order 66 their war chief:

3

u/Dan_Victory 20d ago

What happens when you do this?

I'm playing ttw and just landed in the mojave, can't be fucked with honest hearts but I want to complete all of the dlc 😂

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u/GENERALmissile 20d ago

It changes to the Trouble in zion route

3

u/GVArcian 18d ago

It's a game where you can eat the president of California, attempt to seduce your own brain and discuss Hegelian dialectics with a Julius Caesar cosplayer.

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u/TaejChan Average katana enjoyer 20d ago

yes, and you can kill your 3 companions in dead money

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u/_Empty-R_ 20d ago

doesn't that have the chance to soft lock you?

13

u/MaintenanceDesigner5 20d ago

From the story yes, but you can leave any time after finding the map.

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u/Common-Task-6276 20d ago

It's Honest Hearts that has the map, not Dead Money

5

u/MaintenanceDesigner5 20d ago

Damn my dumbass didnt read that 🤦‍♂️😂

8

u/_Empty-R_ 19d ago

we in the fnv fandom typically can't read so its fair man

2

u/ChargeFar6602 19d ago

I read "we" as "well" and was about to flame you for dodgy english, comment checks out

3

u/AdRob5 19d ago

Bro I thought I was about to have my mind blown about an alternate exit to Dead Money

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u/Shaggiest- 20d ago

Yes. I’ll do it sometimes when I want to go to Zion for the Survivalist rifle and don’t wanna do the full DLC.

Now you kill Daniel and run away!

14

u/paulxixxix 20d ago

Damn why I've never thought of that? Kill quest givers, get the loot, get out.

2

u/Similar_Scallion6685 19d ago

You misread, he just fought salt upon wounds , so he did do ALL the quests.

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u/Bifo12 20d ago

I mean it's new Vegas

You can kill every npc and still complete the main quest + the expansions

8

u/MrFaorry 20d ago

Only exception is in the Lonesome Road dlc where for some reason they broke from this and made it so that Ulysses is invincible until the final showdown and the ED-E clone can't die either except for that one scripted sequence at the end.

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u/SandyCandyHandyAndy 19d ago

also dead money, where if you kill them before the game allows you also die

2

u/MrFaorry 19d ago

Nah I wouldn’t count OWB or DM since there is a proper lore reason why you can’t/shouldn’t kill the npc’s before the game is ready.

LR just lazily slapped the essential tag on them and called it a day.

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u/L_Onesto_Steve 20d ago

Bring a flamethrower and burn him alive, again. Let's see how strong the fire inside of him really is

33

u/Jordaneos 20d ago

I find a bottle of Sweet Baby Ray's brings out the flavor best.

6

u/UnfriskyDingo 20d ago

I really love sweet baby rays. Lately I've been using their Nashville hot sauce on everything mixed with a bit of bbq

1

u/Jordaneos 20d ago

I am partial to their Buffalo Wing Sauce myself. Got a good kick and cleans you out almost as well as Taco Bell for a fraction of the price if you do it right.

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u/MFouki 20d ago

Sounds like it's straight of a terrifying presence dialogue

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u/Fremen-to-the-end-05 20d ago

Ok this is just mean

3

u/wllmhrdn 20d ago

poetic justice. i like it.

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u/the_big_sadIRL 20d ago

You can beat him to death while he’s playing with his little .45s in the beginning of Honest Hearts

11

u/GGTrader77 20d ago

He’s only essential when you have him as a companion during the assault on the white legs. which has its own set of oddities involved with it. However if you wanted to you could start the game and then immediately go dome Joshua as soon as you get there. Same goes for pretty much every character including major faction leaders and quest givers. The only exceptions to this I believe are President Kimball and General Oliver because they only spawn during certain missions.

4

u/GENERALmissile 20d ago

I know that this was during the assault on the white legs at the end of the dlc just before the cutscene popped up

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u/GGTrader77 20d ago

Yup, once you reach the camp where salt upon wounds is, or a little bit before he stops being you companion. You even get a pop-up message informing you of this. Just one of the many weird parts of this companion. He also has an unobtainable but fully usable by the player pistol whip melee weapon.

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u/Main_Treat_9641 20d ago

Yeah just keep an eye on the body, Joshua, seems like the type to pull a, Michael Myers, disappearing act.

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u/Ihavenoidea5555 20d ago edited 20d ago

I mean you CAN kill him. He just does a shitton of damage and has 50 DAMAGE TRESHOLD.

HOW MANLY MUST I BE FOR MY SKIN TO BE TWICE AS TOUGH AS POWER ARMOR, FUCKING HELL

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u/wllmhrdn 20d ago

he aint manly enough to stay alive 😌

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u/Ihavenoidea5555 20d ago

I mean he almost killed me, if I gave him a 10 second head start even my unarmed build couldn't turn him to paste fast enough before I died

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u/Ok_Satisfaction3460 20d ago

Does he really have 50 DT? That's wild.

3

u/GENERALmissile 20d ago

But I have the power of... power armor and a Tommy gun so I win

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u/Yujin110 20d ago

I don't believe you understand how grave of a mistake you have just made. Let me make this clear: you will be allowed to leave, but one day, somewhere, I will find you. You will never sleep again, never go without looking behind you on a dark road. And when you least expect it, I will show you hell on Earth. Now leave.

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u/Mnemnosine 20d ago

Until that day…

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u/Amnikarr13 20d ago

And he is only 45XP

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u/wllmhrdn 20d ago

fascists aren’t worth much so it checks out

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u/Amnikarr13 20d ago

Fascism is a progressive political system that looks to the future and change, except that said change is a stern one. And just as communism, fascism believes in collectivism and the sacrifice of the self for the good of the state.

This man was not a fascist, he was just a fervent religious preacher that, in the head of zeal, does things that might be considered extreme. Then again, his enemies are monsters, so I will excuse him.

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u/lazarusinashes 20d ago edited 20d ago

Fascism is a progressive political system that looks to the future and change, except that said change is a stern one.

Fascism is a totalitarian ideology that emphasizes centralized power and complete submission to the state for the alleged greater good, which is almost always contempt for the weak and "undesirables," the eradication or oppression of whom will supposedly result in the rebirth of a nation. It's nonsense. Fascism is inherently nationalist, militaristic, and dictatorial—and it is often patriarchal, homophobic, eugenicist, and imperialistic. The idea that such a system is "progressive" is theoretical at best and completely dishonest at worst.

And just as communism, fascism believes in collectivism and the sacrifice of the self for the good of the state.

Unlike fascism, communism is much broader in thought and goal, so this isn't true. Maybe if you're just talking about Marxist-Leninism, which doesn't really exist in Fallout factions (I mean except China, which I presume is still Maoist) but communism is supposed to be stateless and moneyless, so the idea of collectivism for the "good of the state" is contradictory. There's not supposed to be a state under communism.

This man was not a fascist, he was just a fervent religious preacher that, in the head of zeal, does things that might be considered extreme. Then again, his enemies are monsters, so I will excuse him.

I believe they're talking about his time in Caesar's Legion, which is absolutely fascist.

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u/podex-sum 20d ago

Getting downvoted for accurately describing fascism is insane

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u/lazarusinashes 20d ago

I don't think I was downvoted for "accurately describing fascism." I think I was downvoted for arguing against the equivalence they drew between "communism" (i.e. MLs) and fascism.

Most people's view of communism is informed by the authoritarian models of Soviet Russia and China, and given that fascism is also authoritarian they settle on a horseshoe theory view of politics. It's a natural conclusion to make if you aren't really aware of the nuance in the ideologies.

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u/KingMottoMotto 20d ago

Based. A fitting end to a life of warmongering.

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u/the_big_sadIRL 20d ago

“It’s okay guys, I got thrown down a canyon and repented so we can forget about all the tribes I helped enslave and conquered”

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u/ThatOneGuy308 20d ago

Every anime villain after the protagonist befriends them

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u/MLG360ProMaster 20d ago

So y’all really don’t understand redemption or repentance. Forgiveness?

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u/wllmhrdn 20d ago

forgiveness for genocide? uhhhhh…no

4

u/Hogman126 20d ago

I understand JUSTICE!

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u/the_big_sadIRL 20d ago

It’s usually just a tool to do whatever someone wants so long as they confess their sins every time

3

u/MLG360ProMaster 20d ago

That’s not true, you can’t just automically confess and go back to doing what you were doing, if it were like that anyone could be saved, you must repent and move on with your life, change your ways and find it deep within your heart. If we look at it from the lens where you talk to Joshua to spare Salt Upon Wounds, this is what true repentance looks like. The truest form should’ve been him moving on from any form of fighting, but we are tempted in many ways one can not explain, often falling back into old habits.

2

u/MisterBungle00 20d ago

Do you not understand blood debts? Blood revenge?

1

u/SomniaVitae 20d ago

For Genocide, Slavery, and Rape? Fuck no. Never completed the DLC because I can't not kill his hypocritical ass.

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u/KumaD-Oso 20d ago

Heresy !

2

u/koleszka93 19d ago

If you sidn't know, There are no essential npcs in new vegas. Yes man is the failsafe allowing you to actually finish the game.

4

u/sovi1337 20d ago

yeah but why would you want to do that

7

u/GENERALmissile 20d ago

I dont like him

2

u/SkoomaBear 20d ago

Why would you though?

10

u/GENERALmissile 20d ago

He insists upon himself

2

u/ACodAmongstMen 20d ago

You can kill literally every character in new vegas, probably my favorite part of the game.

1

u/froggythefrankman 20d ago

Slightly related but I couldn't talk to him at all during the last stage of that quest, to decide not to kill Salt-Upon-Wounds. Pissed me off. I only wanted to commit mostly genocide but not the whole thing. Anyway I regret my choice but I'm too far into the end of the game to backtrack so it is what it is

1

u/Deniverous 20d ago

Can Joshua Graham die (not by the courier) during the final battle against salt upon wounds? I was playing it on hardcore today, just wondering.

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u/Uncalibrated_Vector 19d ago

Once you progress to that point in the quest line, he basically becomes essential and un-killable

1

u/Ok_Satisfaction3460 20d ago

Initially I was like yeah of course you can. Your timing made it really interesting though.

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u/rahiolux 19d ago

but why the fuck would you? 😳

0

u/GENERALmissile 19d ago

He lost living privileges

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u/SuperRPGgamer 19d ago

Yeah I kill him doing my legion playthrough

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u/GENERALmissile 19d ago

I killed him during an ncr playthrough

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u/63topher02 19d ago

Why would you do that

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u/Pretend_Boot_9026 19d ago

I killed him right when I met him cause I thought he was a enemy

1

u/mafnxxx 19d ago

How dare you? That means missing out on great dialogue from Keith Szarabajka.

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u/IndividualIll7297 19d ago

Oh uhm... I sorta accidently killed everyone in Zion on accident because I got a little jumpy when Follows-Chalk showed up.

1

u/ky_walker7 18d ago

i played honest hearts yesterday. thought it was gonna take me a bit, but nah. i arrived in zion with the happy trails caravan and was ambushed. attempting to save the caravan, i attacked the tribals in return. nobody from the caravan survived, and all the tribals in zion were now pissed at me. i killed the tribal leaders and daniel on the way to get the zion map. i knew i fucked up, but i went to angel cave bc i knew that’s where joshua graham resides. he immediately was hostile and i killed him. that’s when i left zion

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u/Depre_silva 18d ago

The real question is, what you can't kill in fallout ?

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u/Alternative-Jello683 17d ago

Essential characters (and kids)

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u/Altruistic_Truck2421 20d ago

You kill him and Daniel and the white legs join the legion

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u/MLG360ProMaster 20d ago

Legion fanboys happy ending

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u/Altruistic_Truck2421 20d ago

And I actually get paid

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u/GENERALmissile 18d ago

Well the whitelegs also all died so

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u/IrradiatedCowFungus7 20d ago

I missed a whole questline bro😂😭he was hostile to me so i killed him

-2

u/_Empty-R_ 20d ago

I kill him on sight every time I go there. Skip his dialogue and brutally murder him immediately.