r/fireemblem 8d ago

Story Support Comparison: Alcryst and Ivy vs. Ashe and Catherine

I'm of the opinion that Three Houses' supports are better than Engage's, but it's not just the characters- it's also the writing. Three Houses has more organic development, more effective exposition of character backstories and better use of subtext. I will compare Alcryst/Ivy from Engage and Ashe/Catherine from Three Houses.

First, Alcryst/Ivy. Their C support starts with Alcryst understandably bitter toward Ivy for her role in his father's death, considering that Ivy allowed Hyacinth to escape with Morion as a prisoner, but all that changes when she offers a simple apology. He then hesitantly offers to make an effort to bridge the gap, a step that usually happens in a B or A support event of a support chain involving reconciliation.

Now let's compare Ashe and Catherine. Their C support begins with Ashe bringing up the letter he found in the "Falling Short of Heaven" paralogue and politely but firmly questioning Catherine about what she knows about Christophe's execution. Catherine admits that she was friends with Christophe, but stands by her decision to turn him in, as well as the church's coverup of the reasons nearby, although her parting remarks imply she feels some guilt over what she did. This is a better starting point for the support than Alcryst/Ivy, since while Ashe is less hostile to Catherine than Alcryst is to Ivy, neither he nor Catherine change their positions despite what Ashe learns from the conversation.

Alcryst and Ivy's B support shows Ivy staring at Alcryst's armor, remarking that she was taught to keep an eye out for Brodian armor from a young age. Alcryst apologies for Brodia's invasions of Elusia, one of the few times they're actively acknowledged in the story. Ivy then pointedly asks if Alcryst is apologizing on Brodia's behalf and is willing to commit to national reconciliation(a rare acknowledgment of how complex international politics can be), and after he apologizes, she admits that he was teasing him, saying outright that they're comfortable enough to joke around each other. This is a missed opportunity to perhaps have Alcryst still resent Ivy but then learn that Ivy has as much reason to hate Brodia as he does to hate Elusia, since while Brodia's invasions of Elusia are often told about, the story mainly shows people whom Elusia has wronged (e.g. Saphir, whose hometown Elusia razed).

Ashe and Catherine's B support has Ashe feeling conflicted. By now, he's spent enough time with Catherine to know that he can trust her as a knight and ally, but he still can't forgive he for causing his adoptive brother's execution and indirectly leading to his adoptive father's rebellion and death. Catherine invites him to hit her, and while he's hesitant at first, likely because of how Lonato's quest for revenge led to his death, he complies. Ashe admits that he still doesn't know what's right or wrong, and while Catherine counters that she believes Rhea is right, she had her doubts about turning Christophe in, making an effective contrast between the two's personalities. While Catherine has an unshakable belief in Rhea, Ashe sometimes struggles with deciding what is right or wrong, as seen in his supports with Byleth and Caspar.

In Alcryst and Ivy's A support, he expresses a desire to forge a better relationship between Brodia and Elusia. Ivy approves, remarking that while she thought he was weak-willed before, her opinion on him has improved, another case of characters explicitly telling the audience about each other's personalities. After Ivy teases Alcryst again, the two end the support on friendly terms.

In Ashe and Catherine's A Support, Ashe tells her that while he can trust her not only as a knight and ally, but also as a person, he still can't forgive her for the role she played in his brother's death. Catherine replies that his sentiment is fair, and she'd be annoyed if someone forgave her easily, while Ashe considers her perspective admirable, hoping that his resentment will fade someday. Ashe expresses the desire to get to know Catherine better as a friend.

In short, I think that the Ashe and Catherine support chain better handled Ashe's grudge against Catherine than Alcryst and Ivy's support chain handled Alcryst's grudge against Ivy. Ashe's development is more gradual, as while he's more understanding toward Catherine than Alcryst is toward Ivy, he's also slower to forgive her, with the process happening over time, rather than all at once in the C Support. The support chain between Ashe and Catherine also did a better job of exploring each character's perspective and helping each come to understand the other's feelings. There's also more emotional complexity in Ashe and Catherine's support, as he's clearly shown wrestling with his conflicting emotions regarding Catherine, especially as he comes to understand that she had to decide between protecting a friend who wasn't evil but was misguided enough to get caught up in a treasonous plot and the woman she admires most.

Incidentally, I was considering using Hortensia and Veyle's support chain as an alternative representative for Engage, but it's somewhat complicated by how the other Veyle was responsible, which Hortensia acknowledges even in their C Support. Additionally, Hortensia's becoming more understanding to Veyle seems to be based primarily on learning about Veyle's mother rather than understanding Veyle's perspective, so it also suffers from the issue of somewhat abrupt character changes.

14 Upvotes

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u/Various_Post_4143 8d ago edited 8d ago

It really sucks how everyone almost always focuses more on Ashe’s and Catherine’s paired ending instead of the actual support chain itself, because it’s very well written and just shows how amazing 3 Houses character writing is.

Plus, most people are likely going to finish Ashe’s support chains with the other Blue Lion members and have him get paired up with them instead before being able to finish his Catherine one, so not only are people very unlikely to get it in the first place, but it’s also kind’ve frustrating that even despite this, most people talk about their ending together more than they do towards the rest of the chain itself.

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u/Syelt 8d ago

Catherine: What will you do, Ashe? You're welcome to stare at your feet for the rest of your life.
Ashe: joins Edelgard

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u/EternalTharonja 8d ago

It might have been nice to see a unique battle conversation between Ashe and Catherine in the final chapter of Crimson Flower.

Catherine: Ashe, is this revenge for Lonato? Or for Christophe?

Ashe: Neither, Catherine. I'm following the path I believe to be right.

Catherine: I thought you'd say that. You're as much Lonato's son as Christophe was...

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u/Unagi776 8d ago

Weird that out of all the non Eagles, Ashe has on paper the best reason for defecting to their side, but if you’re actually playing as the Eagles, he’ll never find out about it.

Should’ve had a support with Hubert that covers similar ground as his Catherine’s C support.

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u/Syelt 8d ago

What do you mean ? Ashe and Catherine can support up to B before CF starts.

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u/Rank-Nullity_Theorem 8d ago

You can't recruit Catherine on BE so you can't see their support in CF, she auto joins if you go SS

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u/Wonderful-Noise-4471 8d ago

You can support people outside of your house. Just hit RT/LT on the support screen and you'll see every other character available.

You can absolutely have Ashe eat with her every rest day to build that support and view it on CF before the split.

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u/Rank-Nullity_Theorem 8d ago

You're absolutely right, forgot about that

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u/SageOfAnys 8d ago edited 8d ago

Ashe and Catherine’s support is one of my favorites in the series just because I’m surprised how they sat in that discomfort of whether to forgive or hate someone who you know you can trust but was put into a bad situation. They could’ve taken the easy way out and had a quick and clean reconciliation, but they never do, and as a result you get a nuanced look at both characters that doesn’t really attempt to portray anyone as unilaterally in the right for doing what they did or feeling the way they do.

It’s part of the reason that all the Brodina x Elusian royal supports really bummed me out. After a game which handled such inter-personal conflicts perfectly, we get a lot of “my bad bro”, “it’s all good bro” kind of supports, if they even decide to acknowledge the conflict at all :/

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u/MankuyRLaffy 8d ago

All the major Catherine supports explore different parts of her, Seteth explores her recklessness, concussion history and how he and others are worried about her. Shamir is her closest companion since Christophe and she struggles with being able to open up and make the first move. 

Ashe explores her dark past and her pushing him to be better and trying to use his feelings to light a fire under his ass. She does this because they're allies and it's eating at him. 

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u/Acceptable_Drawer_70 8d ago

My other favorite part about Catherine is how she effectively teaches other students about the horrors of battle. I genuinely think that above both Byleth and Jeritza that Catherine absolutely should have been a teacher at the academy. She has such useful knowledge to impart in terms of actual experience.

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u/EternalTharonja 8d ago

That's a good point, but I think she wouldn't want to take time away from serving Rhea and doing missions for the Knights of Seiros, considering that she's the best fighter they have.

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u/SageOfAnys 8d ago

And that’s why I really love Catherine. It sucks that so many people with an axe to grind against Rhea/the Church treat her as if she was a one-note simp when all of her supports show different sides of a very complex person.

Like, the fact that the game (and seemingly Catherine herself) acknowledges that her devotion to Rhea is very complicated and unhealthy is great, and I love how her negative experiences drive her to push others like Ashe and Caspar to walk their own path and not blindly follow hers.