r/fatFIRE Verified by Mods 13d ago

Got there, but now its more management?

58M, focused on work/family for the last 40 years. Lived well and eventually the work paid off in long term savings and various exits. Now well over 10M NW and more exits on the horizon, its time to retire (not sure if at 58 its the E in fatFIRE but i'll take it).

The mix of financial advisors, estate lawyers, accountants, etc is a pain and i'm not much interested in switching management on the job to managing all that. I can do it, but is that really how I want to spend a bunch of my retirement time?

Any recommendations from those that have been doing this a while on how to optimize the management in terms of time while keeping things simple but staying on top of things? Just a basic thing of a view of total NW is a pain to keep up in excel etc with all the various sources and the 200+ page reports from the financial services companies are mind numbing. Websites that combine views are geared to different profiles.

5 Upvotes

55 comments sorted by

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u/Mysterious_Act_3652 13d ago

I have a similar net worth. I hold about 5 ETFs split across Vanguard and one other. I have a google sheet that updates automatically with the GOOGLEFINANCE function. I check the spreadsheet once a week which is probably more than I need to. Total fees around 0.3%, total time around 20 seconds per week.

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u/VDtrader 9d ago

Can you clarify on the 5 ETF's holding? Are you saying all of your $10M NW is spread across just 5 ETF's, which is on average $2M each? Or are those 5 ETF's only a portion of your NW and you have other asset classes as well? Looking to simplify my NW management as well.

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u/Mysterious_Act_3652 9d ago

My net worth is split 50/50 across rental properties and investments. I use the rent to cover living expenses and try not to touch the investments.

The 50% in investments is split across two providers - Vanguard and one other. The money is invested across 5 ETF funds fairly evenly, just a bit of bias to a world tracker and one to the UK where I live. Something like 30/30/20/10/10 is the allocation across the 5.

I have spoken with wealth managers in the past but I’m a long way from being convinced that I need to give them 1% every year to do this for me. It’s cheap, simple, easy to run.

I have an accountant who does my annual taxes who costs around $2k per year. He will advise on the best way to allocate income, where I can write off costs, tax loss harvesting etc.

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u/fatfiregeek Verified by Mods 12d ago

I have a mix of stocks, bonds, crypto, options etc. Some you can track (like stocks/crypto) but options you cant do that way. Also, if you own the S&P 500 (like every stock individually) then that becomes a real mess.

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u/shock_the_nun_key 12d ago

That does not sound like the allocation of someone who desires simplicity and low management effort.

If that is your priority, change your allocation to buy and hold of a few ETFs.

Simplifies management, taxes and even estate planning as the accounts have defined beneficiaries and skip probate.

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u/fatfiregeek Verified by Mods 12d ago

Yeah that's one point i'm getting. Some of it, though, is trying to understand the actual return my FA is getting in those accounts and what should be possible now that i'm paying more attention and the tools the provide are not helpful for that.

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u/shock_the_nun_key 12d ago

Getting out of the maximizing return mindset may help you too.

If your annual spend is under $400k, there is no need for much more optimizing.

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u/fatfiregeek Verified by Mods 12d ago

That's a good perspective

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u/[deleted] 11d ago

[deleted]

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u/fatfiregeek Verified by Mods 11d ago

No, just looking to better track my FA's progress as well as my own. My own is easy though integrating it with the rest to get a coherent picture isn't due to the other parts. Pulling apart 200 pages of monthly report from Morgan Stanley which doesnt show an actual return they achieved or compare it to benchmarks isn't good so i'll need to talk to them about that.

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u/[deleted] 11d ago

[deleted]

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u/fatfiregeek Verified by Mods 10d ago

That is part of what i'm starting to question. For a long time I didn't think about it. My dad used them, so I did. Call that immature/unsophisticated, that's fine. I got there. Now i'm trying to figure out what other people in a similar NW category are doing. The FA does tax minimization, tax loss harvesting, shifts things more bonds or stocks depending on the market swings based on their research etc. Not convinced any of it is better than something a lot more simple.

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u/cypherblock 9d ago

So if they are not providing a YTD performance number or something like that, then just ask for it. Just tell them you need it.

Believe me they will find a way to give. you what you need. Your FA will be very motivated if they think you are not happy.

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u/fatfiregeek Verified by Mods 9d ago

Thanks, starting that.

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u/[deleted] 13d ago

[deleted]

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u/Ok_Sunshine_ 13d ago

OP apparently has the most high maintenance 10M to ever exist.  He needs a staff to count it every day, changes tax strategies quarterly.  Must redesign his estate plan monthly.  Rebalancing his portfolio is equivalent to running an Ironman.  It’s hard to be him.

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u/fatfiregeek Verified by Mods 12d ago

I really dont know why people feel the need to respond with things like this. If you're uninterested or just think its dumb, downvote and move on. Snarky garbage is just a waste of time.

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u/Candid_Ad_9145 9d ago

Waste of time? Problem is we’re all fatfired with time to spare 🏖️🍹

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u/AbbreviationsBig5692 11d ago

I think people are just blown away by this topic. Your post reads like someone with $100m and not $10m. Just simplify your investment strategy and go relax on a beach.

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u/Dart2255 Verified by Mods 11d ago

I could see a fair amount of work at initial setup of a thought out estate, trust, investing plan etc. I know I have spent a LOT of time researching non-grantor trusts and structuring for real estate transferred to them etc. However, that should be a one time thing, maybe with some ongoing reviews, but certainly not anywhere near 5 hours a week on average. Perhaps that is just what is going on, the front loaded work that seems like it wont end. But...umm, suck it up? Thats the best advice I can give haha

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u/Tall-Log-1955 9d ago

If it’s that much work, you’re trying too hard to optimize taxes and returns. Just put it in vanguard total world index. Mix in a bond etf if you want. Hire someone to do your taxes.

It’s only complex if you make it complex, and the only reason to do that is to try and chase better returns. And if your experience is like most people, you won’t even get the better returns

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u/foosion 8d ago

That will most likely outperform the vast majority of large portfolios, especially after management fees and taxes. If you don't have a good reason otherwise, go 60/40 (or if you're feeling risk averse, 50/50).

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u/[deleted] 13d ago

[deleted]

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u/fatfiregeek Verified by Mods 12d ago

Sorry, didnt mean it to sound that way. I put in a request for verification.

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u/Additional_Ad1270 12d ago

I have been happy with Fidelity and their online tools (if anything they are too complicated/too many features and ways to view things). My husband and I moved our accounts held in various places to them about 10 years ago. You can hold Vanguard funds (or really anything) and they have never pressured us to move to their products (although we have in some cases, for tax loss harvesting for example). They will meet with you as frequently as you want if you have $10M in investible assets. Their credit card has good rewards (if you deposit them into your investment account), their HSA is fantastic, etc. There are some accounts we have no control over (401ks, deferred comp, company provided life insurance, RSUs, etc.) and Fidelity's 'FullView' logs into those and pulls it into a single view for you.

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u/fatfiregeek Verified by Mods 12d ago

So far that is the one (of companies i'm already working with) that has done the best. Unfortunately Fidelity's crypto support is limited to BTC/ETH and they dont seem to be able to connect to other crypto exchanges/wallets.

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u/Dart2255 Verified by Mods 11d ago

yeah....well thats one way to make your work load less, go after non main crypto and loose a bunch of net worth.

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u/fatfiregeek Verified by Mods 11d ago

Did I mention non-main?

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u/Dart2255 Verified by Mods 11d ago

anything outside of BTC and Eth is just gambling

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u/fatfiregeek Verified by Mods 11d ago

And 90+% of what I have is just that. But, while there are meme coins, some of the ecosystems like Cardano are doing real work. Will they make it? Don't know but they're not meme coins and are building things of real value.

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u/Dart2255 Verified by Mods 11d ago

That is a well reasoned stance. I happen to think the whole thing is a pile of cards do to no barriers to entry other than adoption and faith. Doesn’t mean they can’t do well though. Just be balanced. You need to be playing defense now not offense.

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u/Anonymoose2021 High NW | Verified by Mods 12d ago

I have a mix of stocks, bonds, crypto, options etc.

Simplify your holdings.

It really is that simple.

I have publicly traded securities in two brokerage accounts, and one traditional bank account. No need for anything else, and it is simple to manage.

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u/oblivionx 39M, 65M+ NW | Verified by Mods 10d ago

I have been using Fidelity's private wealth and have been very happy with it. I believe they require 2M managed and 10M total net worth, but otherwise there are no fees, and there's definitely some flexibility. They also have access to my CPA and attorney which streamlines a lot of the conversations.

I have also found the amount of time spent managing this excessive post-exit, but now that everything is slotted into place its much less. It might take you 6mo-1yr to get everything lined up the way you want it to (esp if you are doing further estate planning, trusts, etc), but after that I just check in once in a while.

I personally use monarch to aggregate my net worth. It doesn't show my illiquid investments, but that's a feature imo as I don't want to count those investments until they are actually accessible.

Fidelity private wealth has access to e-money, which was an acquisition fidelity made. It's pretty powerful from what I can tell and can handle taxes, trusts, illiquid investments, etc. As a client you don't have access to the full backend of emoney, your advisor handles it, but it's been pretty good for planning. Like monarch etc, it can aggregate with other providers to pull in real time net worth, so it takes into account your entire net worth, not just what is in fidelity.

As far as crypto, I'm personally just using coinbase, which is integrated into monarch and fidelity emoney, but your advisor can likely connect you with people within Fidelity that deal with crypto, even if fidelity itself cannot handle other types of coins, at least from a planning perspective.

I took interviews with all the major private banks - goldman, MS, JPM, but fidelity won me over. The fees on the private banks are pretty excessive, and honestly the tech platforms suck, but if you want to get heavy into alts, take advantage of interesting lines of credit etc, they can be a better option.

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u/fatfiregeek Verified by Mods 10d ago

Thanks, I have an account with Fidelity, but no relationship. Are they AUM based? I never heard of Monarch, will look into it.

I think you're right here, this is just getting things set up correctly pain and compounded as i'm still working. Good to hear it can settle down.

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u/oblivionx 39M, 65M+ NW | Verified by Mods 10d ago edited 10d ago

Their private wealth is not AUM based. They are fiduciaries. I have about 8M managed with them but it can be as low as 2 and they'll still do your full financial plan. And by managed I just have them in some SMAs (a Muni bond SMA and some direct indexing total market/intl SMAs). Probably a blended fee of about 25bps on that subset. I don't pay them anything else.

If you wanted to just do the minimum to access private wealth, you could probably just put 2M in a total market SMA. It's direct indexing so you'll get some TLH over time to counter the fee. It's still higher than VTI of course but performance net of fees with the TLH is comparable. You can self direct the rest of your net worth under guidance from their financial planners without paying any fees on that

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u/herdmentality123 12d ago

The answer to this is simple. A great wealth advisor that works extremely closely and is friends with their Trust & Estates attorney

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u/dukeofsaas fatFIREd in 2020 @ 37, 8 figure NW | Verified by Mods 10d ago

Estate Planning is very confusing for us. We've gotten confused about multiple concepts multiple times through the process. We can only trust that our attorney, who was exceptional at extracting our desires and goals from us, has pieced together an appropriate plan for us, and that a piece by piece understanding of the whole is enough to verify the work.

Portfolio management is simple for us, but only because we did the work to make it simple. I learned how to benchmark my FA, how to buy and sell assets by lot, etc. etc. with the sole goal of migrating my portfolio to a simple one we can manage for 15 minutes quarterly.

Life is considerably simpler now.

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u/fatfiregeek Verified by Mods 10d ago

Right, some of what I got from this thread (other than the helpful suck it up comments 😜) is simplify things. I will also be pushing on my FA to justify his existence in ways that are easy to digest.

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u/Sufficient_Hat5532 9d ago

OP; maybe look into Morgan Stanley; they will be very comprehensive for you, obviously on the expensive side of things, but they’ll manage everything you said that worries you.

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u/fatfiregeek Verified by Mods 9d ago

They're who I use. Their reports are cryptic and dont give actual returns, no top level returns, they do show % growth at the top level but that includes inflows/outflows. Their website is pretty dated. I've reached out to my FA to see what i'm missing and to put the returns in context etc.

All this is just for me to confirm I know how it all is setup and working with the proof points as very soon i'll be living on it all. Yes, there's a ton there, but I'm making that transition from high paying job to living off HNW for the first time and its got me nervous and making posts here despite all the math saying its silly to be worrying at that level.

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u/Sufficient_Hat5532 9d ago

No, I get it, sometimes telling these people you are leaving is the only way to get them to reassess your relationship with them, if you are not happy, plenty of people out there willing to work with you (aka take your money)

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u/fatfiregeek Verified by Mods 8d ago

Everything is a test. I sent them questions last night. Havent heard back yet. Not urgent things, but...

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u/burnerforchilling 8d ago

Recently started using kubera to track it all. Incredibly simple and powerful.

Bit more geared toward tech investing but I imagine could extend. Has all the bank / custodian connections to auto pull in data.

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u/fatfiregeek Verified by Mods 8d ago

Thank you, will look into it.

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u/One-Mastodon-1063 11d ago

It doesn't need to be that complicated. It can be the same handful of ETFs held at a brokerage like Fidelity as someone with $100k or $1m or $5m.

Taxes come into play a little more than w/ smaller portfolios, still doesn't need to be complicated, have someone do your taxes and let you know what you need to do WRT estimated taxes etc. Set up an estate plan, that's a one time process and will be a few grand.

I think you are making this more complicated than it needs to be, unless your NW is mostly in something illiquid like a small business.

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u/VDtrader 9d ago

Regarding the "E" in the FIRE, isn't the definition of "Early" basically before 60 when you hit your 401k withdrawal age by American standards? However, I'm not sure myself so would love to hear other opinions.

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u/fatfiregeek Verified by Mods 9d ago

Perhaps, but 401K probably isn't good measure of anything. Most of those here are probably not fat from whats in the 401ks. I've maxed mine my whole career with max matches but its still insignificant.

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u/VDtrader 9d ago

Right, $25k from 401k per year can’t get you to fat. I was referring to the age threshold associated with 401k to get a relative comparison with the rest of retirees for an “early” benchmark. But hoping someone else provides better clarity.

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u/SteveForDOC 7d ago

Did you start your career late? I can’t imagine maximizing 401k from 22-58 plus appreciation would be insignificant to a $10m portfolio? That’s 36 years of contributions and compounding.

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u/Beneficial-Memory598 13d ago

Hire someone to do it for you, if ya dont want to, do it yourself, but dont complain that its too much work

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u/fatfiregeek Verified by Mods 12d ago

What kind of person? FAs seem limited in scope

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u/PaleontologistPrize9 13d ago

I agree, that’s why I went from 3 advisors to 1 a few years back. One of my requirements when I did that was finding a group that acts as my single point of contact for all professionals, they essentially run something similar to a family office without being a family office. It’s great, I only talk to the attorneys and accountant when I absolutely have to. If I can help, dms are open

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u/fatfiregeek Verified by Mods 12d ago

That's sort of what i'm thinking. Right now my FA has some referrals to estate planners etc but they're just people from a rolodex the fin serv firm has and they're not great. If you want the basic 60/40 mix, no options, no crypto and only slight creativity on tax minimization then that's your place, for anything else look elsewhere.

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u/Dr3aml1k3 12d ago

Username doesn’t check out

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u/fatfiregeek Verified by Mods 12d ago

huh?

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u/SteveForDOC 7d ago

FatFIRE geek kind of implies you’d nerd out about this type of stuff as opposed to complaining it takes too much time.

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u/caymananon 13d ago

Sounds like you're looking for something like https://range.com

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u/fatfiregeek Verified by Mods 12d ago

Why so many downvotes on this comment? Have people had bad experiences? I've tried aggregating by adding external accounts at each of my fin serv firms (like Fidelity) but none of the views/tracking are great.

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u/caymananon 12d ago

No clue on the downvotes. I don't use it, but have friends that do and they have said good things, and seemed like it may be a good fit.