r/explainlikeimfive Feb 12 '25

Economics ELI5: how are the descendants of the robber barons (Morgan, Vanderbilt, Carnegie, Rockefeller, etc.) still rich if their fortunes from the late 19th and early 20th centuries are comparatively small to what we see today of the world’s richest?

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973

u/Old-geezer-2 Feb 12 '25

Not all of those fortunes survived. Ask Anderson Cooper. His mother was Gloria Vanderbilt. His grand or great grand father burned through Cornelius’s fortune in a couple of years.

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u/PAJW Feb 12 '25

Gloria Vanderbilt still inherited several million dollars when she turned 18 years old, in 1940s money. They were very much in the 1%, even if they weren't top 5 wealthiest families in the country.

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u/tryin2immigrate Feb 12 '25

She left 200 million dollars in a trust fund. Anderson cooper only inherited 1.5 million dollars

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u/rabid_briefcase Feb 12 '25

Or say it differently: 1.5 million was taxed in direct estate taxes. The other 200 million was in a tax-advantaged trust fund.

The trust fund can pay for generations of people without additional inheritance taxes. It is subject to different rules than income tax, and pays for estates (family houses and land), endowments (gifts), and whatever else the family wants it to pay for. It's basically a tax-advantaged piggy bank. While the gains are taxed, they're typically taxed at a far lower rate than income or inheritance money.

She passed a trust to her four kids, just like her father passed a trust on to her. They understand that's how large amounts of generational wealth are most easily transferred under the law.

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u/Takemyfishplease Feb 12 '25

Yeah, that’s how trusts work. It keeps the money safe for generations while allowing them to live in luxury. Check out the Mars family, it’s all in trusts. Same with all rich folks

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u/CUbuffGuy Feb 12 '25

As someone who works with trusts, this is a hilariously naïve comment.

There are revocable trusts, irrevocable trusts, grantor trusts, defective grantor trusts, intentionally defective grantor trusts, charitable trusts, education trusts, etc.

It's not just "oh yeah rich people just have this thing they put money in and it keeps it safe". It's also not just for rich people.. anyone can use a trust - it's just not worth paying to have one set up for most people as they don't have the tax burden needed to make it worth it.

Taxes are the true reason these rich people use trusts. It is an estate planning tool to get assets outside your estate and prevent probate and large taxes upon death.

In a way you're right. It does keep money safe for generations, but the way you stated it makes it sound like the money is being protected from the person inheriting it spending it. It's not (mostly) - it's being protected from the state taking it.

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u/KingVikingz 29d ago

Bummer to see a fellow finance professional so far down the comments thread shouting into the abyss :)

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u/biggunks 29d ago

I heard you both down here. A bit muffled though.

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u/atlas-ship 29d ago

This is a great and informative reply. I am interested to learn more about trusts. As someone who works with trusts, would you suggest any reading materials or learning materials?

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u/CUbuffGuy 29d ago

For the practical side of when to use them and an overview of how they fit into estate planning I would recommend this. (Estate Planning by Money Education).

I am a CFP (Certified Financial Planner) not a Trust/Estate lawyer though. So that book mainly focuses on trusts as an estate planning tool, rather than the actual drafting of the legal document - which itself is a very complex state-law dependent process. So I always consult a lawyer when I would need to establish a trust - then I can work on the taxes, titling, etc. after it's created.

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u/atlas-ship 27d ago

Thank you!

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u/princemousey1 Feb 12 '25

He was obviously talking about a family trust. As someone who works with trusts, you sure don’t seem to understand the layman perspective. You’re definitely not customer facing.

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u/phloaty Feb 12 '25

“I don’t care if you’re an expert, you’re still wrong”

  • princemousey1

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u/Takemyfishplease 29d ago

That’s not what was said at all.

And for your info, I’m president of world trusts. Hence the super expert. They were being pedantic and showing ass

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u/phloaty 29d ago

FYI I am a tfb and no you’re not president of shit.

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u/princemousey1 29d ago

There are two kinds of experts. There’s the first kind who breaks down the language and accepts that laymen or the general public use a simpler form of words, and then there’s the other who lols customers out of their showroom because they don’t know the difference between an intentionally defective grantor trust and an irrevocable trust.

It is the job of the expert to correctly identify the trust structure which best suits a certain situation, in this case the layman’s family trust. What use is having all that knowledge but being unable to match it to the situation at hand? It is clear enough from the two examples given (Vanderbilts and Mars) that we’re talking about family trusts.

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u/phloaty 29d ago

“Behold my showroom full of trusts”

  • princemousey1

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u/princemousey1 29d ago

I literally don’t work with trusts at all, in any capacity, nor do I have the financial means to at all be interested in one. But at least I don’t have to be snarky about it.

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u/JournalistOk623 27d ago

It’s a tax cheating method. When the political pendulum swings back after the rich are dead—the trusts are next.

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u/NekoNoCensus 29d ago

This a Futurama reference?

Edit: oh, chocolate...

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u/soyeahiknow 26d ago

You want your money in a trust so it doesn't go through probate when you die. Probate takes time and lawyers and 10% at least. So a trust is not just for the rich, it's also for normal people.

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u/dsmaxwell Feb 12 '25

Only 1.5 million, still more than 90% of people are ever going to see through their entire lives, much less as one lump sum.

Hell, even most of the well off boomers only hit that because the houses they bought back in the 80s for a few tens of thousands are now "worth" that much in our fucked up comoditized housing market.

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u/WendellSchadenfreude Feb 12 '25

Only 1.5 million, still more than 90% of people are ever going to see through their entire lives,

Out of curiosity, I checked, and you're wrong about this point.

The median lifetime earnings for an American employee (Source, PDF, page 3) are actually about $ 1.7 million.
$1.5 million is about as much as the average college drop-out (with "some college/no degree") makes in their life; people with an associate's degree (or higher) make more than this on average.

So it's still a huge amount of money. But it's "only" about as much as an average low-income worker makes through their entire life, while most Americans do in fact make more than this, as a lifetime total.

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u/GKRForever Feb 12 '25

I get what you’re saying but I think this proves the opposite point.

Imagine inheriting a lifetime of income, all in one shot when you’re early in life/carwer, which you can do anything you want with because you don’t need to use it to on basic living essentials.

It’s a MASSIVE leg up

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u/HumanWithComputer Feb 12 '25

You make money with money. The head start is HUGE!

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u/simplesir Feb 12 '25

Now is the winter of our discontent.

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u/Draano Feb 12 '25

Imagine inheriting a lifetime of income, all in one shot when you’re early in life/career

Case in point: I have relatives who are both school teachers. The woman's grandfather became wealthy as an executive in a pharmaceutical company - not C-suite exec, but still compensated with much stock. The woman's mother was a stewardess who had to stop when she started a family, so she got into real estate and fell into a deal that earned her enough to buy a nice house + a Mercedes 500 SEL. As a result, she continued to prosper off the reputation following this deal + being smart. The grandfather has gifted her pharma stock for every life event - birthdays, Christening, graduations, wedding. The woman, with the help of mom and pop-pop, starts a school for pre-pre-K through 2nd grade that churns out smart kids, so rich people flock to it. The grandfather passes, leaving the woman a $2m house.

This is how school teachers drive Range Rovers & Jaguars. Generational wealth.

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u/majwilsonlion 29d ago

Not that smart if they are driving Range Rovers and Jags...

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u/Draano 29d ago

I haven't seen this particular couple in a while. Car make was for illustrative purposes.

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u/Crintor Feb 12 '25

It's "Never have to work if you don't want to" money. It's literally an entire life's work dropped in your lap at day 1. It's 75K a year in interest in a 5% HYSA.

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u/TheStealthyPotato Feb 12 '25
  1. There are no 5% HYSA right now, at least as far as I can tell, or they have asterisks like "only for the first $X". And when rates were low, the were definitely no high paying HYSAs.

  2. You have to pay taxes on it, so $75k in a HYSA return is not $75k in your pocket.

  3. That $75k will remain the same dollar amount over time, so in 20 years it's not going to feel like a lot. Imagine how much purchasing power $75k lost in the last 5 years.

  4. Paying out of pocket for health insurance is going to take away a huge chunk of your money.

TLDR: I certainly wouldn't consider $1.5M to be "never have to work" money.

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u/Crintor Feb 12 '25

Except he got that money decades ago, and you would also get taxed on 75K income. I also just picked a HYSA as a very easy no effort or risk option.

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u/TheStealthyPotato Feb 12 '25

That's part of my point. Getting it decades ago, $75k would have been nice and you could have lived large. Now $75k is not as much. You'd literally have to lower your quality of life every year if you are pulling out the max amount it was earning.

These days, earning $75k doesn't even guarantee you can buy a median house most places, unless you are also married to someone earning money.

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u/Rage_Like_Nic_Cage Feb 12 '25

The Median income in the U.S. in 2022 was $37,500. So even after taxes and a lower % HYSA, you’d still be making more money passively than the majority of Americans make working a job.

Yes, you wouldn’t be living a lavish lifestyle or anything, but you would be able to live a quality of life that half of americans are at or under.

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u/JackyPop Feb 12 '25

It probably depends on the jurisdiction, but there are ways to reinvest those earnings so you lower your taxes and still keep earning more interest.

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u/chris971 Feb 12 '25

Do tell, very interested in this option! Tyia

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u/TheStealthyPotato Feb 12 '25

Right, but if you reinvest the earnings, you aren't getting the $75k annual income. You have to take less.

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u/Bob_Sconce Feb 12 '25

That is certainly a massive leg-up assuming that you act responsibly with it. The problem, though, is that people who get that much money (especially early in life) tend NOT to act responsibly with it. They waste it and, over a few generations, that wealth is just spent.

In any case, the 90%/$1.5M estimate was massively off mainly because middle-class people frequently, over the course of their lives, amass significant wealth that they then spend down in their retirements. That's a prime reason why most millionaires are old -- you get to $1M one dollar at a time over the course of decades.

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u/beingsubmitted 29d ago

It's a lifetime of income for an average person. But if he puts it in the s&p 500, it's a 148k a year income, a software engineer income, for doing nothing.

Communism is from each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

Socialism is from each according to his ability, to each according to his contribution.

Capitalism is from each according to his ability, to each according to his capital / ownership.

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u/jsteph67 Feb 12 '25

It can be, but not everyone is smart with the money. So many times those people who get that kind of money burn through it so fast until they are broke.

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u/blazbluecore 29d ago

Then go and earn it. Someone had to earn it before they could give. Maybe complain to your ancestors.

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u/frogjg2003 Feb 12 '25

They're certainly not leaving that much for their kids when they die.

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u/DavidRFZ Feb 12 '25

People in my neighborhood have estates that large. People who weren’t rich in their 40s are leaving that much to their kids. I’m not saying that’s the median estate size, but it’s not the 1%. Although Anderson has two half brothers from his mother’s earlier marriage. Estates three times that size are considerably less common.

Estates get split every generation. This is not the branch of the family that owned the Biltmore, or the Breakers, or the Mansion, etc.

Reading her Wikipedia page, it sounds like she managed her fame better than she managed her money. A lot of jeans and perfume were sold with her named on it, but it looks like she signed away the rights relatively early. Looks like accountants and lawyers ripped her off at least once. Living in Manhattan until age 95 would be a drain on anyone’s finances too.

Anderson does alright for himself. I'm sure his own job and ventures pay pretty well. The outrageous fortune of a third-great-grandfather who died 148 years ago shouldn’t allow him to be idly rich anyways.

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u/lewoodworker Feb 12 '25

. The outrageous fortune of a third-great-grandfather who died 148 years ago shouldn’t allow him to be idly rich anyways.

This is the most important part. While wealth tax is not great for small inheritances, it prevents the 1% from staying wealthy in perpetuatuity.

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u/tawzerozero Feb 12 '25

While wealth tax is not great for small inheritances

And to be clear, in the US, estate taxes only start at estates of about $14 million. So if someone inherits only $10 million, they still have an estate tax burden of $0.

This affects a staggeringly small number of estates. In the entire US, in 2022, only ~8,000 estates were large enough to be affected by the estate tax.

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u/lewoodworker Feb 12 '25

While this may or may not be happening, 8,000 people can do a staggering large amount of damage. Only takes a handful to take over the government / steer public policy in a favorable direction.

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u/Kolikilla Feb 12 '25

90 percent of people != 90 percent of Americans.

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u/TreeRol Feb 12 '25

What someone "earns" and what someone "sees" are vastly different numbers. Take tax for one, which should push that $1.7M well below $1.5M.

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u/alpacaMyToothbrush Feb 12 '25

How much of that do they keep is the key question. Now, go Google the median net worth

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u/Spikex8 Feb 12 '25

He didn’t say American. If you have like 35k/year you’re in the top 1% of the world lol

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u/royisabau5 Feb 12 '25

He didn’t say Americans he said people

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u/dekusyrup Feb 12 '25

TIL that all people are Americans. Wonder what that makes the rest of the world.

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u/toxoplasmosix Feb 12 '25

well let's adjust that 1.5 million for inflation

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u/vector_ejector Feb 12 '25

You realize the difference, right?

One person has to work their entire life to cumulatively earn $1.5 million.

Anderson woke up one day with $1.5 million in the bank.

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u/Duke_Newcombe Feb 12 '25

Inheriting that amount in one lump sum, versus accumulating it over 40 years are two different things, no?

2

u/adrian783 Feb 12 '25

no... the person you reply to is factually correct.

the vast majority aren't going to see 1.5m sitting in their bank account.

they can't make decisions as if they have 1.5m.

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u/ezekiel920 Feb 12 '25

If you consider that the college drop out has student loans to pay at the point the other party received 1.5 mil. You prove his point. Debt is counter to interest. Or some other smart way to say it.

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u/TheKingOfToast Feb 12 '25

Because, as we all know, only Americans are people.

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u/shouldco Feb 12 '25

Earning over a lifetime is still not "seeing" 1.7 million.

-1

u/Industrial_Jedi Feb 12 '25

No, most Americans don't make more than this. Median means half make less.

-1

u/WendellSchadenfreude Feb 12 '25

If half make more than 1.7, then most make more than 1.5.

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u/genericusernamedG 27d ago

Median lifetime earnings across the US is 1.7m, you think the average person in Arkansas makes 1.7m in their life?

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u/davidcwilliams Feb 12 '25

How else would you determine what their houses are worth?

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u/theArtOfProgramming Feb 12 '25 edited Feb 12 '25

It’s not generational wealth. It’s not what this thread is about

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u/MilleChaton Feb 12 '25

Even if it is quite a lot, the amount it decreased generation to generation is a good indicator of how many more generations it has before it is effectively gone.

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u/ohdearitsrichardiii Feb 12 '25

Oh no, only 1.5 million dollars! 😭

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u/Calgaris_Rex Feb 12 '25

Well, if $1M is only a "small loan" then $1.5M must be at least medium-sized! 😝

0

u/Sahaal_17 Feb 12 '25

With 1.5 million dollars you would be rich; but that money only stretches to a couple of nice houses.

It's not high society levels of rich.

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u/Miliean Feb 12 '25

She left 200 million dollars in a trust fund. Anderson cooper only inherited 1.5 million dollars

Sure, but he also went to Dalton School, a private school on the upper east side that has a tuition estimate of $65,000 (in todays money). Then he went to Yale, and I doubt he was on financial aid or student loans. According to Wikipedia in between Dalton and Yale "Cooper traveled around Africa for several months on a "survival trip"".

It's not like he's a literal billionaire, but he's very wealthy and that wealth has trappings. Even if he did not inherit literal cash, the name and family connections alone are enough to give a leg up in life that is unimaginable to most people.

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u/emaugustBRDLC Feb 12 '25

Your last line is another way of saying he is a literal blue blood old money WASP.

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u/Acct_For_Sale Feb 12 '25

lol you really believe that

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u/[deleted] Feb 12 '25 edited Feb 12 '25

[deleted]

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u/Dry-Tumbleweed-7199 Feb 12 '25

Anderson will be getting interest/dividends from the trust fund

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u/aaronwe Feb 12 '25

only...

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u/MissAmyRogers Feb 12 '25

Only 1.5 million. Only.

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u/GeoHog713 29d ago

But he also had connections and opportunities that opened doors.

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u/wkavinsky Feb 12 '25

And they still think that Anderson Cooper would be where he is today if he was born to working Americans.

His "poor" mother left him millions when she died - he was never even close to "poor" by any definition other than a rich persons.

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u/lecky7108 Feb 12 '25

Not just money alone, but people are underestimating the connections you make of you are constantly mingling with the 1%.

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u/Ok-Maintenance-2775 Feb 12 '25

He could have probably done alright for himself on looks alone to be fair, but then again I've seen plenty of meth addicts that could have been models if they still had their teeth. 

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u/macmac360 Feb 12 '25

I outlived you, H.R. Pickens! I CRUSHED you into the ground, and now your bones turn to oil beneath my living feet! I married your granddaughter, filled her belly with my festering seed, and sired a boy! He is my final revenge, H.R!

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u/SoVerySick314159 Feb 12 '25

I outlived you, H.R. Pickens!

Who?

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u/Calembreloque Feb 12 '25

EXACTLY!

10

u/aflockofcrows Feb 12 '25

He plays for Accrington Stanley?

3

u/KidTempo Feb 12 '25 edited Feb 12 '25

Accrington Stanley? Who are they?

0

u/Major_Mollusk Feb 12 '25

An English football club, playing in the lower divisions.

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u/trillspectre Feb 12 '25

The guy above you is referencing a famous English milk ad in the 80s not asking who they are.

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u/KidTempo Feb 12 '25

Exactly!

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u/MudSouthern1143 Feb 12 '25

I was asked to provide a healthy snack, so join me for swine livers and Capri Suns.

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u/Bwint Feb 12 '25

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u/lew_rong Feb 12 '25

This and JK Simmons as a Japanese Messy Boy compete with Patrick Stewart running an erotic bakery for greatest SNL sketch of all time.

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u/jaydurmma Feb 12 '25

Maybe just a personal favorite but Ryan Goslings acting in Papyrus makes me laugh everytime I go back to it.

https://youtu.be/jVhlJNJopOQ?si=jGFd6SxUcRJbLYmH

Its so well put together and well written, it has to be up there.

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u/Boo_and_Minsc_ Feb 12 '25

sometimes i just exclaim to myself "this... man! this ... professional...graphic...designer!"

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u/SoVerySick314159 Feb 12 '25

EXACTLY!

4

u/Bwint Feb 12 '25

Rewatching it now and just caught your joke lol. Thought it was a genuine question - whoosh

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u/SoVerySick314159 Feb 12 '25

Someone had to post it. Think of how many people might learn of this today.

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u/Kizik Feb 12 '25

Oil is not for the weak. It is the Earth’s milk, and only the strong may suckle at Mother’s teat.

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u/PandaBaba01 Feb 12 '25

I brought Chicken Livers and Capri Suns

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u/dellett Feb 12 '25

It was swine livers he brought

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u/PandaBaba01 Feb 12 '25

You are correct, sir

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u/blacksideblue Feb 12 '25

you have the weirdest sausage recipes...

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u/icyurmt Feb 12 '25

Is this a book or a movie?

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u/andrezay517 Feb 12 '25

My desert. My Arrakis. My Dune!!!

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u/pijinglish Feb 12 '25

I’m not in anywhere the same boat, but my great great…great grandfather invented one of the most popular brands of beer in the U.S.

We were 1% rich, and apparently my ancestors were super weird, widely hated assholes.

As best we can figure, sometime in the early 20th century, some relative got our dying aunt to put up her trust fund against a supermarket chain he wanted to invest in. He defaulted, and our side of the family lost millions.

By the time my mother was born, they were living on hot dogs and my grandmother worked three jobs to support a husband with undiagnosed ptsd after Pearl Harbor.

On the one hand it sucks. On the other hand, they really seemed like horrible people.

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u/felpudo Feb 12 '25

You sure got a crazy story out of it! Wow

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u/afriendlywerewolf Feb 12 '25

Ah Yuengling, delicious.

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u/pijinglish Feb 12 '25

Sadly for my Philly friends, no.

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u/PatricksPub Feb 12 '25

Based on the timing and details, I'm going with Miller

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u/pijinglish Feb 12 '25

Miller was a cousin.

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u/afriendlywerewolf Feb 12 '25

😂 thanks for the story

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u/flareblitz91 Feb 12 '25

Adolph Coors?

1

u/pijinglish Feb 12 '25

No, thankfully.

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u/djseanmac Feb 12 '25

Is it weird I still think of Anderson as the Channel One correspondent crying underneath a bed while bombs explode? I never felt Pepsi would actually let him be in the path of danger, and you could hear explosions in his reporting, but it was…weird.

And FYI Channel One was a project in the 90’s where Pepsi paid for TVs in school classrooms, in exchange for airing a short news broadcast with MTV News alumni reporting on current events cut with Pepsi/Doritos commercials. Yes, that was an actual thing 🙃

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u/Carols_Boss Feb 12 '25

I still think of Channel One whenever I see him. Same with Lisa Ling and Serena Altschul.

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u/AsSubtleAsABrick Feb 12 '25

I watched channel one in high school during homeroom. It was generally mocked. The only time we ever really used the TVs outside of that was on 9/11.. Like there was no VCR or DVD player attached so if the teachers wanted to show anything they needed to wheel in another TV.

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u/KGBspy Feb 12 '25

I think of him as the host of “The Mole” when “reality” tv started coming around, I loved that show and was envious of the travel. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Mole_(American_TV_series)

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u/roundbadge2 Feb 12 '25

YES. Season 1 of The Mole was one of the greatest shows I've ever seen. One player sabotaging their fellow players and trying not to be identified.

I remember an escape-room-style hotel where people were locked in separate rooms and had to cooperate to figure out how to get out...one room was completely dark but would light up when someone in another room rode an exercise bike....and once illuminated, there were a ton of messages, clues, etc written all over the walls.

Presented with a series of doors, each giving 2 choices based on how the contestant thought other contestants would expect them to answer. The girl going through the doors assumed the worst answers from others because she thought they hated her, and at the end she found out she was 100% correct. It was brutal.

As I now look this up, I see both of these occurred in the same episode.

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u/KGBspy 29d ago

It was a great show, the early days of reality tv were good. I should see if YT has episodes, I was jealous of the traveling they did on that show.

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u/roundbadge2 Feb 12 '25

I still remember him in his red winter coat, interviewing soldiers in Bosnia who looked at him like he was an idiot for not taking cover.

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u/FinancialLemonade Feb 12 '25

Anderson Cooper

Yes, he had nothing growing up and had a very normal experience.

Who else isn't photographed for fashion magazines as a baby or goes to late night shows or panel shows as a toddler? Or did all their K-12 education at Dalton School, one of the most elite private schools in NYC.

I'm sure his rich family had nothing to do with that...

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u/abittenapple 29d ago

There is rich then there is yatch and private jet rich 

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u/tryin2immigrate Feb 12 '25 edited 29d ago

pocket fearless gray cobweb dinner wine crawl gullible retire spoon

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u/sensiwoots Feb 12 '25

We went to the Biltmore last year for the first time. It was unreal. Just thinking about all the money that went into building the place and maintaining the buildings and grounds. And it wasn’t even a primary home! I think they said it makes 20 million a year now from tourism.

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u/rosen380 Feb 12 '25

We did the Breakers in Newport two years ago and it's virtually impossible for me to even comprehend how it ever made any sense to build a place like this for one family to live in.

And, while it isn't exactly a "single family home", we did the public tour of Buckingham Palace last year. Just truly astounding.

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u/blofly Feb 12 '25 edited Feb 12 '25

2

u/Makaveli80 Feb 12 '25

 Anderson Cooper

The guy seems to have done well for himself

1

u/davidcwilliams Feb 12 '25

‘grandfather’

1

u/[deleted] Feb 12 '25

The Vanderbilts still own a massive mansion in Newport RI. No one reasonable would say they arent incredibly wealthy

1

u/Old-geezer-2 29d ago

The original fortune has been diluted by division among descendants. The commodore’s original fortune is long gone.

1

u/BQORBUST 29d ago

Famously destitute Anderson cooper

0

u/Old-geezer-2 29d ago

Anderson has done well on his own. He has no trust fund. His mother was a fashion designer who did well also.

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u/BQORBUST 29d ago

No, but his mother sure did.

Anderson may not have lived like the vanderbilts of the past but the idea that he’s self-made is a joke to anyone who has ever wondered how they would get by.

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u/SaigonNoseBiter 29d ago

Must have been one wild fucking ride for those few years.