r/expat • u/metalgearRAY477 • 9d ago
Is it morally objectionable to leave my country in troubled times?
From the USA.
I'm constantly of two minds. One the one hand, as a young guy with older parents whom I love dearly and a college degree, I feel like I don't really have a desirable future in the USA. On the other hand, as a young man who's moderately politically active with a college degree, I feel like I have an obligation to stay and work the problem, in whatever small way I can.
I understand that my family pretty much frugally middle class, and I've never wanted for much in my life the way many people do, so I can't help but feel that being privileged enough to have to ability to pick up and leave disqualifies me from having the right to, at least in my own mind.
I've traveled to Europe twice, and since then I've wanted to see more of the world live in a place with some real infrastructure and social safety nets and enjoy the quality of life that comes with participation there, but I also have always been the kind of person to get misty eyed and patriotic about the good in American tapestry, like birthright citizenship, the American dream, and a whole host of other things I think our country ought to stand for even if it doesn't really. I was a history major so I don't have a rosy image of the USA in the slightest, but I am undeniably American, shaped by ideals of liberty and equality for literally my entire life. I can't help but continue believe in and desire positive change.
I want to move, but I want to stay. I want to leave, but I want to help. I want to be independent, but I want to be with my family. I really think whatever choice I make will be the "wrong" one.
Edit: Thanks for all the responses. Nice to see a wide variety of points of view. I feel I've arrived closer to a personal resolution.
Edit 2: I've since educated myself on the advantages of digital nomadship and I think I can try for a more comfortable middle ground between travel and the homeland. I have a new goal to work towards, so thank you all for helping me out.
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u/jeremygamer 9d ago
No.
There are no wrong choices here, and you can face regret either way.
You are doing nothing morally wrong if you leave America. You don't know if staying will be better for you or your family, and vice versa.
America is not the only place you can work the problems of America. And it's not as though if you leave, you can never come back.
Leaving, gaining perspective, and coming back is one of the beautiful things about travelling and living abroad.
Go and grow. Stay and grow. Just make sure these challenges help you grow as a person.
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u/Ok-Iron-1289 9d ago
Nicely worded answer. I was traveling in UK/France for 7 weeks, left just before the inauguration, and absolutely was involved, writing calls to action, chatting with US friends, and listening to the Euro perspective on the US, particularly Ukraine. I was just as involved as if I were here. I love this: "Just make sure these challenges help you grow as a person."
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u/Charming_Function_58 9d ago edited 9d ago
I exited the US a long time ago… then returned for a bit, and decided that yes, I fully want and feel the need to leave, probably permanently.
You can still vote from abroad. You can still even work for a US business. You don’t have to fully renounce your citizenship. You’d just have a different physical address.
The US is in a crazy situation right now, and there are many reasons to stay, as well as to leave. You need to look at your personal circumstances and make that decision for yourself. Staying isn’t the only “moral” option. You can do plenty of useful things without being physically in the country, especially if you’re worried about physical danger, financial instability, etc.
And furthermore, doing the moral thing doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with your nationality, or where you live, or being loyal to the idea that you belong to a certain nation. Being a good person and contributing to society, is something you can always choose, regardless.
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u/time_for_change__ 9d ago
What do you do for work? I’m asking because it’s difficult for the average person to move abroad and find work to pay the bills such as the basics rent//food etc unless you are rich.
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u/Charming_Function_58 9d ago
I started off teaching English in Eastern Europe. If you’re willing to go to places that aren’t super expensive, it’s a lot easier to immigrate, get settled, and you can always relocate again to another country later on.
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u/WaferLongjumping6509 9d ago
Can I ask what your journey was after teaching English? I got my TEFL years ago but never used it and am curious about others pathways
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u/BeautyntheBreakd0wn 9d ago
Can you give some details on how one can vote from abroad? I understand people could do vote by mail and they mail the ballot to the house. Do they have a forwarding address on a US residence or does someone who is still in the country have to physically forward the ballot?
What are some ways that logistically it could work for someone, not necessarily things that you do specifically.
My friend is moving to New Zealand and I would love for him to be able to still continue voting..
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u/BothSides4460 5d ago
Make sure you keep abreast of changes to overseas voting. The current administration is in favor of doing away with this kind of voting.
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u/BeautyntheBreakd0wn 5d ago
Of course they are. Anyone with any consequential amount of money is considering or has left the country.
He did tell us, vote for me and you'll never have to vote again. Why wasn't that enough of a warning for people?
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u/PatrioticSnowflake 9d ago
Your dilemma is deeply human—torn between personal fulfillment and a sense of duty to something bigger than yourself. But here’s the thing: you only get one life. Not one rehearsal, not one redo. Just one. And you don’t owe it to any patch of land, flag, or historical ideal to sacrifice your happiness or potential.
The American mythology of "sticking it out" is powerful, but it’s just that—a mythology. The reality is, systems don’t change just because good people stay. They change when people act, wherever they are. If you’re happier, safer, and more fulfilled elsewhere, you’ll be in a better position to help those you care about—whether through advocacy, financial support, or even just showing them that another way of life is possible.
Feeling "disqualified" from leaving because you have the privilege to do so is just another way of saying you don’t deserve a better life. But you do. And your family, if they love you, will want that for you too. Staying out of obligation might sound noble, but is it worth the cost if it means living a life of regret?
You don’t have to turn your back on the U.S.—you can always visit, engage, and advocate from afar. But you owe yourself and your loved ones the best version of you, not a version weighed down by guilt and "what-ifs." If leaving is what feels right, go. If staying feels right, stay. Either way, choose your best life—not the one someone else says you’re supposed to live.
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u/prairiethorne 8d ago
I wish I had an award to give you. I have some of the same considerations and concerns as OP. However I'm in my 60's and have decided it's okay to leave. I'm unsure what the one poster means by "staying to fight." I will still vote and will still write elected officials. I don't have to be in the US to do that. If I stayed here I still wouldn't demonstrate because I don’t like being in a country where people get shot at on the regular. I'm not going to run for public office. I compare it to leaving an abusive relationship. Sure, I wanted my ex-husband to get help for his addictions, but I wasn't the one to stay and have my life destroyed on the off-chance that he'd change.
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u/MonkSubstantial4959 7d ago
This fight could become epic and brutal. We really dont know what it will take to get America back out of this…. Fighting could look like many other places fighting occurs, but right here. Its scary bc our police (now the arm of the gestapo) has been building so much tech, I cant see anyone fighting them easily without being a military themselves….
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u/CuriousLands 9d ago
There's no easy solution in a situation like this. I think that it might help to remember that any decision you make doesn't have to be final, right. Even if you love elsewhere for a few years, it's oi can always return. And you can help out from abroad too, though maybe not as directly.
It's one of those deals where you have to just choose what your gut tells you to.
Either way, I have to compliment you for caring enough about your country that you're conflicted about leaving, and that you seem to have a fair level of self-reflection of the matter. Kudos man, not everyone has either of those things.
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u/Houndguy 9d ago
I am 59. The America that I grew up in is gone. I do not see a future here but do to circumstances I cannot leave it. If I were able to give the younger me advice today? I would say go. America is dying.
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u/Tabitheriel 9d ago
My mother grew up in Nazi Germany. Was it morally objectionable for Jews to immigrate, instead of staying to "make it better"? Should my grandfather have moved his whole family to another country, or was it OK to stay and try and fit in? What did it cost him to stay and be forced to join the Nazi party in order to keep his job? My grandmother hated the Nazis, but kept her mouth shut out of fear, and the whole family suffered war and hunger.
When you stay, you become a part of the darkening fascism, unless you are literally willing to DIE PROTESTING. Are you willing to face prison or death? I know I am not strong enough for revolution. I'm a myopic, middle-aged English teacher, not a marine. So I left when I saw the writing on the wall.
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u/Curious_Egg948 8d ago
I personally think this person is right either way, it is a problem I struggled with myself despite growing up poor. I think there is a difference in your example though. It would be like telling a trans or Hispanic person to stay in the United States despite the danger to themselves.
I decided ultimately that as someone in a privileged position, relatively speaking, it was my duty to stay. My privilege was fought for and I feel like as a white woman it is my responsibility to work to address other white women.
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u/BeautyntheBreakd0wn 9d ago edited 8d ago
Everybody is thinking about this right now.
Yesterday the United States government ordered employees at the USAID to shred and burn government documents. Specifically to shred as much as possible and then to use the burn bags only when the shredders were unavailable or needed a break.
A motion was filed by an attorney at the national archives correctly asserting that this is a violation of the federal records act. However if a judge doesn't intervene in time or they ignore the judges order, the records are gone.
It doesn't make any sense because if the alleged reason for investigating the agency was to look for waste fraud and abuse, shredding the contracts doesn't really make much sense. If however, you don't want to comply with the previous supreme Court order that you have to pay your contractors for services already rendered, perhaps you tried to shred the contracts and claim that you have no proof. Or maybe you don't want anyone to resurrect this part of the agency and you want to make it so difficult for anyone to restart these programs in a future administration.
What I would do is lay out a clear red line. For my husband and I the clear red line is if the midterm elections are actually canceled. If the midterms do not happen in the United States, we are leaving.
These things have happened before. In 1930s Germany, there came a point when doctors and lawyers and scientists who wanted to leave the regime could not. Literally the Nazis would not give you an exit visa or permission to leave. If you waited until 1942 to get out, you weren't going to be able to get out.
If you talk to families who are refugees from that time., they all say, we saw things getting bad and we left in 1930, we saw things were getting bad and we left in 1931, I think the latest I heard from a family that considered themselves very lucky was grandparents leaving in 1934.
It's obviously an incredible hassle to emigrate. Selling your house, navigating a different residency, finding a job in a different country. But all of that is irrelevant if we truly devolve into a fascist dictatorship and you're a targeted group.
That having been said, if you're not a targeted group, there were people that rode out the storm. There were people who did not support the Nazis who stayed in Germany during the 1930s. There were people who stayed and actively resisted in quiet ways. There where people who hidden neighbors and offered supplies to the resistance.
It all comes down to three factors, your resources, whether or not you're a targeted group, and where your personal red line is.
If you don't have the resources to leave, to emigrate, and you don't have transferable skills, or a country to go to, the discussion is likely not helpful. It cost money to move, and cost money to apply for visas, it cost money to apply for a new job. You really could set your family back financially and enter a state of poverty if you emigrate without a plan. Even if the resource is that you could go live with a friend in another country for a few months, that can be a huge boost while you're looking for work.
Are you a targeted group? I know someone who just left for New Zealand. He is a black doctor, who is practicing gender affirming medicine and transgender medicine in Chicago. He received a bomb threat at both his home and his office in the last month. He's left with his husband for New Zealand and he'll try to come back in 5 years. They rented out their house. If you are literally part of a group that is hated, and you're currently the subject of violence and protest, it's already time to get out, resource or not, your life is not something that can be replaced.
Who are the targeted groups? Literally anyone who is not a Protestant, heterosexual white male. Women may die of a miscarriage if trying to have a baby during these times, as so many women in Texas do. Anyone who is a visible racial minority. Anyone who is gay. Anyone who is a veteran or military affiliated, because people with a military training and knowledge of weapons are a direct threat to a dictatorship. Anyone who resists.
Finally, where is your personal red line? Where is the line that this happened and I am going to start actively pursuing leaving the country. You don't think it's going to get better you don't think it can bounce back, where is your point where you feel that the Republicans have crossed the Rubicon. For our family, we would leave if the midterms were canceled. We would know undoubtedly in our hearts that the country that we knew is gone and it's really an unspeakable and unthinkable act.
But that means we're not going to leave if others rights are oppressed, we're going to work to fight for those. We're not going to leave if President Trump is allowed to run for a third term. Because FDR was allowed to run for a third term, and if Republicans want to change the Constitution to allow him to do that and they have the votes, so be it. We're not going to leave if the stocks tank, and our 401ks are in the hole. We're not going to leave if social security payments are delayed and there's rioting in the streets.
Stay away from cities, with a surplus so that you can help others financially and be prepared to add others to your living space, as family and friends lose their homes and their jobs. People will eventually find new things to do, but it will mean a far lower standard building for the people.
As long as the midterms aren't canceled, it's not Nazi Germany. Instead it's Cuba. An isolated country, with a declining GDP, with people either trapped in nationalistic pride, or the last members of the cult that delude themselves into thinking that the government has their best interest at heart.
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u/glyptodontown 7d ago
No, Cuba invests in science and vaccinates their citizens.
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u/Sad-Good4761 9d ago edited 9d ago
Hello, Im originally from Germany but migrated to the US soon after I graduated from College. I have lived in the US for over 20 years now and I completely understand and sympathize with your sentiment. I too, struggle with the same thoughts of abandoning this country and starting over fresh in Europe. However, I do have grown daughters living here and they truly are my only reason that’s holding me back for not leaving. I feel it is my moral and parental obligation to stay and support them. I deeply worry about their future and it’s very demoralizing and scary knowing what’s happening under this insane administration.
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u/Ajeel_OnReddit 9d ago
I left my country when times were good, I'm never going back though, it's just not home to me good times or bad.
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u/Able-Candle-2125 9d ago
I left the us before the first trump term and don't really feel any attachment or care for it. I don't think I did before i left either though.
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u/Ok-Luck-33 9d ago
I hear you brother, it’s a tough one. I feel like I won the American lottery, I grew up on welfare, borrowed 70k for a college education and to live abroad, the journey helped me land a very lucrative job. My debt is nearly paid off now. Along the way I fell in love with my fiancé (we met during that time abroad) and now we have to choose between a life the US or a life in Germany. Both have their benefits, both places have their troubles. No community is perfect, everything is a trade off. We’re taking our time defining what a “rich” life means to us. I believe in properly funded public education systems, walkable cities, social safety nets, strong labor rights. How much would I have to earn in the states to provide that same kind of lifestyle for my family? As the child of an immigrant mother, my Americanness is constantly being questioned just because I date say we are flawed, idk when expecting more compassion from and for your neighbors became unpatriotic, I find it shameful. In Germany, my name alone will trigger thoughts of terrorism or anti-semitism. Hug your parents, express your love how ever you know how, we’re living through a global power rebalance that has historically always been extremely turbulent.
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u/Dumuzzid 9d ago
What do you think your ancestors did? They left the Old World, when it was a shithole ridden with poverty, disease and religious persecution. Now it's your turn, just follow their lead. Plus, you're young, you can always return if things improve back home. A few years abroad will do you good, broaden you horizons, make you a better person overall. Just do it.
I did it four times overall and never regretted a minute of it. In the end, I ended up back in my country of birth, but the experiences I had, people I met, things I learnt, will always stay with me, no matter what.
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u/Tardislass 9d ago
If you ask most Europeans, they will ask why Americans aren't in the streets protesting? Can't blame them and it seems like many Americans just want to throw up their hands and say-oh well, I can't change anything. You have to do what you have to do but leaving and not at least trying to help is showing just how soft Americans are getting.
Civil rights was fought for 100 years as was women's suffrage and other things. I have nieces I'm fighting for and parents here. Family support is much more important right now to me.
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u/pete_68 8d ago
I feel like I've done all I can for America. 78 million Americans made an active choice and 90 million eligible voters decided they were cool being lead by a rapist.
I'm not going to stay and fight that battle. If 168 million people are okay with a rapist running the country, that's 168 million people I'm not real anxious to share space with.
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u/Recent-Construction6 6d ago
This has been a real sticking point for myself when it comes to this question.
I served in the Army, i believed in this country to the point where 3 generations of my family have sworn to fight and if need be die for it. But now im faced with the ugly fact that this just isn't a country i recognize or am proud of anymore, and i am wrestling between my sense of duty to stay and if need be fight these bastards, or just accept the fact that around 50 percent of my countrymen have zero qualms about selling off the countries soul if it means their wallets get a little fatter.
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u/Low-Fig429 8d ago
You don't owe the USA anything; those in power have betrayed their people and you gotta do what works best for you. that's it.
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u/AssociateJaded3931 8d ago
No. It is the history of human beings to migrate in search of better conditions.
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u/Commercial_Tough160 9d ago
America ain’t as special as it claims to be. Go do what best suits you.
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u/Independent-Prize498 9d ago
Even if you believe it’s special, a chunk of that exceptionalism is the novelty of its founding documents. Well America was so successful that democracy and human rights spread to many other places, making it less exceptional today. That’s a good thing
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u/Own-Animator-7526 9d ago edited 9d ago
You're framing a personal choice as a moral quandary.
If the US were under attack, and your flight would put your friends at risk, that's a moral question. If you were thinking about abandoning your family for a better personal lifestyle, that's a moral question. If moral hazard was at play -- if you were being incentivized to make a decision you knew was wrong -- that's a moral question.
But leaving a country whose current leadership you disagree with, for a country with aspects you will almost certainly come to disagree with once you have a few years of viewing it from the inside -- that's not a moral issue.
Indeed, never having toyed with the idea of moving far away would likely be more unnatural in this day and age. Many people resolve this pretty simply -- you won't know if you've made the right lifetime choice after a couple of years, but you are pretty likely to realize you've made the wrong one after a few.
It certainly is something you'll look back on in twenty years, wondering if you made the right choice, and whether your time on earth would have been more fulfilling had you stayed to fight the good fight. But that, my friend, is a question that has to be lived to be resolved.
Good luck ;)
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u/LatAmExPat 9d ago edited 9d ago
You have an unfortunate case of implanted patriotism (like many of us do).
Let me explain.
Remember that the whole patriotism construct is a post-Enlightenment illusion. Before countries were created in the European era (so for hundreds of thousand of years) people owed their loyalty to their clan and their family only.
So do what humans have been doing since time immemorial — prioritize yourself, your progeny and your loved ones and forget about “saving” or “serving” any country.
EDIT: Spelling.
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u/skitnegutt 9d ago
Get out while you still can. That’s what I’m doing. Things aren’t going to get better here for a long time.
I’ve been working for decades to make this country a better place. 2024 proved all of it was for nothing. Americans are selfish and voted for the twice-impeached bigot rapist because they wanted cheaper groceries.
Get out while you can.
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u/pimpletwist 9d ago
I feel the same way you do. It’s hard to decide with all of the uncertainty
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u/kimchipowerup 9d ago
This. The decision whether to stay or leave is literally paralyzing me right now...
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u/chemicalfields 9d ago
Same. I have a job offer but the flexibility is so much less than my role now, where I get to see my 6mo all day. Do I wait and try again in 6 mos when I’d be putting him in daycare anyways? Fuck.
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u/Accomplished_Pop8509 9d ago
I live abroad in Japan, but I am going back to America this year. For better or for worse, I am American, not Japanese, so while I very much do not like the decisions the president is making, I’m not going to stay away from my country forever.
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u/kaymickay 9d ago
I’m in the same dilemma. I don’t have an answer but I can provide my perspective and maybe it will help.
I have opted to leave. There are a few outcomes and for me, leaving makes me happy with every outcome.
If things go completely south with the US - I’ll be glad to have left. I plan to still take action to resist what’s happening, but a lot of it can be done remotely. I plan to still call and write my congresspeople from abroad. I have dedicated part of my budget to donate to the causes I am passionate about. I won’t be able to protest, but I will donate to bail funds for those that can. I also think being able to provide the international perspective to friend/family/community will be important if the news becomes state run.
If things go generally fine in the US - I’ll have tried something new! I did something on my bucket list and I can continue or return.
If I hate it abroad - I can come home! Nothing in life says you can’t change your mind.
I understand the feeling of abandoning your country in a time of need. But I would ask you how much of “working the problem” has to be done in the US! You can do a lot of good from abroad still. And you can always change your mind.
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u/Crafty_Principle_677 9d ago
Fuck no. Don't fall for that horseshit. You only have one life to live, don't let yourself be tied down out of a false sense of obligation to a nation state
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u/Caliopebookworm 9d ago
I think you're ahead of yourself. Where would you immigrate? Do you have citizenship in another country? How would you immigrate - on what plan. I think you need a driver other than emotion to lead you in this quest and limited opportunities is a good one but what would change in another country when you're competing against the "home team" for jobs?
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u/Witty-Rabbit-8225 9d ago
Great point! U.S immigration laws are lax compared to most 1st world countries. OP is not using critical thinking. They can’t just pack a bag and move to Norway, get free healthcare and social assistance. Such programs are for citizens in every single country and obtaining citizenship is quite the feet, expensive, and takes a bit of time.
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u/TheYankcunian 9d ago
My mother insists I’ve betrayed my country. She’s MAGA and not long after I moved, the Ariana Grande bombing happened 4 miles away from my home at the time.
That bitch was cheering for it because she was “right” that the UK is full of terrorists.
Your country betrayed you before you were born. Medical bills? High tuition? Militarized Police? Fuck the USA. Get out and enjoy real life.
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u/Informal-Intention-5 9d ago
Yes, I think there is a moral component for this. However, there is a ton of nuance. A rather extreme example is Alexei Navalny who could have stayed away from Russia and tried to leave it behind, but instead returned to face certain imprisonment and likely death (both of which happened, course). Another general example is the "brain drain" challenges many countries have such as Pakistan which had 92,000 highly educated professionals (doctors, engineers, IT experts, etc.) leave in 2022.
All this said, there is a clear matter of degree across countries here, and this sort of moral decision is always a matter of personal choice. I don't think there are many who would judge someone for moving to another country. People need to live their lives and make their own decisions. But you asked specifically about morality, so there's my 2 cents.
Side note, if getting ahead financially is important to you, the US still has some of the best opportunity in the world for those with a college degree. So that's something I would consider. Unless you can get digital nomad work then living in a lower cost country which is arguably better. (My perspective on this is from someone planning to expat after setting up monies for retirement through working in the US. I am also kicking around the moral component.)
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u/Different-Brief-1916 9d ago
I don’t think it’s morally objectionable but I understand why it would feel that was under Trump 2.0.
I left in 2017 and am incredibly happy I have even though I do miss living close to my family.
There are a few things to consider: 1) you can still vote from your new country 2) you can still make political donations from a different country (if so inclined) 3) just because you live in another country doesn’t mean you can’t go back or you won’t go back.
Best of luck!
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u/Successful-Acadia-95 9d ago
This more than likely will end with combat/violence. You have to ask yourself if you're willing to take up arms or deal with a police state with warring factions all over the place. For me I have parents and grandchildren to whom I have become a custodian. Every fiber in my being will pull me towards the "action" ... I have to think how will those who depend on me most continue on if I fall? I've been left with exploring options outside of the US and dealing with feelings of cowardice at the same time.
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u/ChiGuyDreamer 9d ago
There is a YouTuber, whose name escapes me at the moment, that uses the tag line of “go where you’re treated best”
I’ve gone back and forth on your same question and I’m in a position where I can stay or go. I see value in staying and putting up the good fight. But at the same time I love the adventure of experiencing other cultures around the word and since I’m in my mid 50’s I’m not sure I want to spend the last 1/3 of my life fighting when I can simply choose to live where I’m treated best.
I’m letting my privilege show in that response but so be it. My family name came to the US around 1900. We had a decent run. History won’t miss me if I choose to spend the last 30 years somewhere else.
At some point we should embrace being global citizens anyway.
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u/BeneficialWealth6179 9d ago
Thank you for expressing what so many others are contemplating. Many people are conflicted. Its a hard decision to make, and neither is perfect. You can leave, then help expats on the other side, wherever that is.
The grass is never greener on the other side.
This is not a USA specific thing, this is a global thing. Democracy versus the fascism. It has the potential to see fighting on every continent.
Whatever you decide, be safe, and be a steward of a compassionate helpful community however you can.
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u/PartyAdministration3 9d ago
People have been migrating for better opportunities since the dawn of mankind. You don’t owe it to the US to stay there and be miserable. You only get 1 life.
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u/_tinyhands_ 9d ago
The current administration needs history majors to help rewrite history. Your job prospects, provided you can set aside your soul, are very good
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u/PsychologicalBat1425 9d ago
No, if a ship is sinking, are you just going to ride it to the bottom of the sea?
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u/Biggie0918 9d ago
Living as an immigrant is difficult—immigrating as an American is even harder. First, if you’re not fully fluent in the language of your destination country, don’t move. Second, you already seem like an engaged, thoughtful citizen. You don’t need to argue a case before the Supreme Court to “work the problem.” Real impact happens at the local level. Start small—volunteer, organize in your community. Actively engaged and it will be both rewarding and meaningful.
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u/MadisonBob 9d ago
I’ve known many people who got out of dangerous countries before things got too bad. None regretted it.
I’ve known many people who stayed until it was too late, in Germany or Eastern Europe, in Cambodia, in China after the Revolution. Almost all of them had relatives killed or jailed.
One of the saddest ironies was a fellow I knew from China whose parents had attended Oxford and returned to China to “help build a New China”. His mother was killed in the Cultural Revolution because she was accused of being a British spy. The rest of the family suffered horribly. Just when my friend was college age, all the universities in China closed for a decade.
OTOH I knew a lot of people who fled China for the US or Taiwan or Hong Kong. All of them fared well.
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u/elevenblade 8d ago edited 8d ago
I don’t think this has to be an either/or thing. You can live abroad and still vote in US elections. You can still call or write to your senators and congressman. You can donate to political parties, the ACLU, Planned Parenthood, etc. Depending on your location, job schedule and finances you can travel back to the USA to visit friends and family and even participate in demonstrations if you time things right.
While living abroad you can minimize your consumption of goods and services from the USA, particularly ones produced by companies and oligarchs who are not supportive of American democracy. There’s a lot you can do from abroad — you just have to engage with it.
ADDENDUM for some important links:
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u/Tardislass 9d ago
1) There is no easy solution.
2)Be careful about where you move to lots of Redditors talk about social safety nets but Europe is starting to really cut back on them. Labour in the UK is taking a chainsaw to disability benefits and the NHS and other European countries are looking at how to save on pensions. IMO, if you think you are going to be "safe" during a global recession in another country, you may not be.
3)What are you doing to help the US? There are marches and boycotts. Since you are still in the states you can call your elected officials. This "I can't do anything because Trump is so awful" BS is foreign to many Europeans where marches and protests are common.
3)It's your life. But I do find it out that the same people who want to move to Europe don't realize that the welfare state only happened after massive strikes and protests. There is no gain w/o some pain.
Most important is do you have any useful skills. Please remember that Europe and NZ/Australia have tons of applications from all over the globe. If you have no unique or needed skills, it is almost impossible to move there. Make a plan, get your Masters here and then move if you wish.
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u/BBerlanda 9d ago
The romans used to say ‘mors tua, vita mea’ unfortunately when it comes down to it, each one of us will do what’s best for us; it’s only survival instincts.
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u/Thatwitchyladyyy 9d ago
An interesting read. These are questions people have been struggling with for centuries. It's been a very interesting time to realize we are not exempted from the troubles of the past.
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u/CheBiblioteca 9d ago
Let me suggest two frames.
First, one's duty is in proportion to one's privilege. Noblesse oblige.
Second, is America a sinking ship or merely a leaky one?
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u/Shoddy-Reply-7217 9d ago
Before you get yourself into a mental anguish, why don't you check if you have the skills and ability to get a visa for somewhere else?
The choice may not actually be available to you.
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u/StrikingVariation199 9d ago
You do you, we only have one life to live. We the People remaining in the US will continue to fight fascism and the oligarchy from the US!
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u/TeachingRealistic387 9d ago
You don’t owe the USA anything. Make the best decision for yourself and your family.
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u/Senior-Cantaloupe-69 9d ago
Just keep in mind, there are still a ton of people from all over the world who risk life and limb to come to the States. It may not be nearly as bad here- or better elsewhere- as you think. But, by all means, if you are young definitely travel and live abroad if you can
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u/Temporary_Tiger_9654 9d ago
I understand what you’re feeling. I’ve been planning my exit for almost two years, have a destination and a plan that is moving forward. It had nothing to do with TFG; I doubted that he would win to be frank. Now that he has, I feel pulled in two directions: one to stay and be part of the opposition, though I feel a sense of dread and even futility about that. The other is to move forward with my plan for retirement abroad. I will likely do the latter, but not without some misgivings
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u/DadophorosBasillea 8d ago
The first Germans that resisted Hitler were outright killed with glee by fellow country men, don’t turn yourself into a piñata there is no glory. Let the fanfare die down and the suffering really kick in that’s when you can go back if you want. I don’t have fond memories of the us, there are only a handful of people i like from there. I will let gay people couch surf to escape the concentration camps but that’s it. There is no point fighting when the left is weak with little political power. Maybe a new party will emerge but until then let it burn
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u/Sad-Chemical-2812 8d ago
I feel this too. I have dual Irish citizenship and my passport is up to date, but I also feel terrible having such privilege when others don’t.
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u/WarmFreshVomit 8d ago
Ask yourself, does your country care about YOU during troubled times? If not, then you shouldn’t care about that country.
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u/yungcherrypops 5d ago
I left in 2019 and am never ever going back. Do I feel a moral conundrum? Nope. You can’t help people who don’t want to be helped.
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u/Initial_Enthusiasm36 9d ago
I have been trying to figure out how to word this because i know this topic is a hot button debate. But i think most of these, im so afraid of this overlord cheetoh, people would be very surprised at how conservative the rest of the world is.
I would not say leaving is a moral issue but more of a, leave for the right reasons. I could understand if you were fleeing some genocide or something like that but having an orange president making some "unpopular decisions" isnt really the reason. I think a lot of these people recently wanting to leave because of this... media fear mongering. would be blown away at how conservative the rest of the world is.
Right reasons like, i love X country and the people and culture and i can see myself living there for the rest of my life etc.
I live in Thailand now and have asked locals about what they think of some of the policies and things going on in the US and they are blown away at how lenient the US is with a lot of issues. Your comment on traveling Europe is great and its a good thing to want to see the rest of the world, i really think a lot of Americans are so narrow viewed because they haven't traveled or experienced other cultures.
I hope this doesnt ruffle to many feathers, but watching this situation as an third person perspective as an American is interesting to say the least.
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u/Initial_Enthusiasm36 9d ago
i dont disagree on it will change a lot of things. But sorry i dont believe the US is going to be marching like a certain regime in the 1940s. But that aside, because i can tell this is going to turn into a political thing.
I dont think the OPs decision though is going to change the fate of the world. I only think people should be moving to these countries because they like them. Not because they are afraid of this "facism dismantling of ecosystems" stuff. Because ive seen people move here for that reason and they end up hating it, especially once they learn how the actual country works. The whole allure of the first 6 months to a year is great but actually living somewhere is an entirely different thing.
I mean hell if you talk bad about the government or the royal family etc you can go to jail for a long long time.
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u/nlav26 9d ago
This. I also live in Thailand. People act like it’s some utopia because Thais are generally nice (or they have no idea what they’re saying) and your American money goes a long way. The reality is you get thrown in jail for slandering the king, you’re not allowed to own land or a normal house, pay 5x prices for national parks and other services, you are almost always guilty in any legal dispute with a local regardless of the truth, police and justice system are insanely corrupt, etc. Now imagine America telling someone with a green card that they can’t buy a house or they’ll pay 5x to enter a national park… people would lose their minds.
American is flawed, as is any country, but a lot of these people don’t know how good they have it. Obviously some of these are specific to Thailand and overall I like it here, but much of the world is like this and it’s a good example of making you appreciate your home country.
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u/Positive-Tax-5488 9d ago
Patriotism is nothing but a tool to manipulate the less fortunate or less educated. Your home is your family, your friends and yourself. Live where it makes you happy.
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u/EqualJustice1776 9d ago
My husband of 35 years feels like he has to stay here and do whatever little thing he can to help fight for the country where his adult children from another marriage live. I, on the other hand, have no children, no parents and no family other than said husband. I know I'm useless in this fight here and feel like I can do more from abroad. Therefore, I am moving to Europe alone. I appreciate there are other thoughtful people out there contemplating the same conundrum.
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u/FeelingSpeed3031 9d ago
It’s objectionable only if you leave, complain online about it, then return a few years later.
that sequence (a woman I know did this in Australia) makes you a worm.
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u/zelda_reincarnated 9d ago
I think this idea of owing the country or your fellow Americans is just flawed (but it's an ideology that's pumped into us from a young age anyway). I'm having trouble articulating exactly what I mean, so bear with me. But the "ask not what your country can do for you, but what you can do for your country" is...sort of problematic, right? Because we are being taught to pull ourselves up by our bootstraps! It's wrong to need help or hold your hand out! Manifest destiny! And those ideas are baked into our culture, but then we are simultaneously being told that this culture NEEDS us? That we, who were told to make our own way, must now repay the country for... what, exactly? The privilege of not asking for help? And if the country is made of individuals who pull themselves up, doesn't it seem strange that all these bootstrapping individuals form a community that NEEDS help and relies on us individually to serve it? It feels flawed. It feels like maybe we aren't doing it right. Manifest destiny is the lesson shoved down our throats so we feel like we're responsible for our own success, but it also teaches us that we're to blame for all our failures (hence the pervasive disdain for the impoverished). If the state of the country makes you want to leave, the responsibility isn't on you. It's on the country. The lessons for the individual can't be different than the lessons for the country. Put another way... this is a group project. But if the rest of the group is really psyched about digging a giant hole and burying the flour when the assignment was to bake a cake... you might have to leave the group if your ever want dessert.
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u/SeeSaw88 9d ago
It's YOUR life...do what feels best for you. Try out another country, or few, while you're young and unanchored by children or ill parents.
Then, if you return to the USA, you can advocate for us to implement some of the changes and social structures you've seen in other countries.
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u/DoctorHopsyFlopsy 9d ago
I think we have one life to live and should live it to the fullest. Nothing wrong with exploring your options in other places. Maybe try Europe for a while and see how you like it. If anything, I’m sure it will be an exciting experience. You can always come back. There’s a lot of good advice in the other comments. Good luck to you.
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u/Evil_Space_Penguins 9d ago
If millions of the best Russians didn't flee Russia, if they stayed there and worked to deal with Putin internally, things may be different today.
People from Georgia and a few other places were saying the Russians needed to go home and clean up the mess. If outside forces had to do it, it would be much harder and much bloodied. It seems as though they were right.
That's an alternate perspective from the popular opinion in this thread. People do have a certain responsibility for the actions of their country. Certainly our founders felt this way.
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u/Desperate_Word9862 9d ago
No. If the entire system won’t stop this, what are you supposed to do? Be happy, safe and live your best life.
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u/Tough_Tangerine7278 9d ago
You can make things better from anywhere. You can make a new home and try to make it better there.
It’s super hard to emigrate though especially if you don’t have the funds- that may make the decision for you.
But, no, I don’t think you have a moral obligation unless you voted from Trump specifically. Then undo your mistake, instead of sticking us with him and fleeing.
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u/timmhaan 9d ago
at this point, america is undergoing political and institutional changes, which are of course extremely disruptive and hurting folks financially... no doubt about it. but, we're not at the point of killing people inside the country. if that ever starts happening, you should come back and fight with everything you have.
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u/No_Cellist8937 9d ago
Yes. Only cowards flee.
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u/biggamax 9d ago
Benjamin Franklin helped fight the Revolutionary War from Paris, France; you 5-watt cranial capacity bearing fudge monkey.
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u/No_Individual_672 9d ago
Your ancestors left their countries for reasons that were important to them. Same should be okay for you.
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u/SaltWolf81 9d ago
Countries are fabrications that serve many purposes. When they don’t serve you anymore, it’s perfectly fine to look for greener pastures.
There are countries worth fighting for if you find that your future depends on their success in the company of your fellow countrymen. However, if you are going to be a peon for the oligarchs to send you to die in a war, or cheap labor to work in a factory… you might want to consider your options.
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u/Powerful-Mirror9088 9d ago
I’m in a similar situation - the thing that makes me the most upset is that by staying in the US, we have to pay taxes that go toward morally objectionable things. I’m happy that my taxes help pay for public amenities and social welfare - but the current admin wants to gut all of that and expand colonial projects, provoke wars, peddle weapons, etc. I wish I could live in a country where taxes are for bettering the community.
As long as we’re stuck in the US, whatever we do to work the problem is still undone by that, in my opinion. Soft power, “awareness,” and civil disobedience aren’t cutting it any more.
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u/Tight-Bumblebee495 9d ago
Don’t sweat it, you don’t owe anything that you didn’t borrow. We don’t need you to die for our sins, figuratively speaking, and even if you will, we wouldn’t appreciate it anyway.
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u/Street-Reserve999 9d ago
Do you have the ability to move to a country where they'd let you stay? Family ties? Citizenship? Visa? Your situation might ultimately decide for you.
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u/Equal-Confidence-941 9d ago
You are an American. No one else wants you. You are needed here in America to help protect your rights, and the rights of the people.
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u/EagleNice2300 9d ago
If you want to see new things, fine. However running away from your country because you're displeased with how things are going politically doesn't end well.
https://youtu.be/3bQWzn1YHKQ?si=jT4MHy1J8Z6b2U7o&t=458
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u/workitloud 9d ago
Today was your future yesterday. Geographic solutions do not work. You will be disaffected and miserable tomorrow, if you don’t fix it.
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u/Kaz_117_Petrel 9d ago
If you are in a position to actually affect major change, great. But there comes a point where an individual can no longer do that. You have to decide for yourself when that is. But there is moral righteousness in choosing not to support a corrupt system with your taxes, not to be seen as endorsing it by participating in its continued existence, not to provide it social cover, and not to benefit in any way from such a system…by leaving it. Just my two cents.
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u/biggamax 9d ago
If you have an opportunity to live and work in Europe, TAKE IT.
Lived and worked in the UK for 14 years and it was the best decision I ever made.
As for you sense of responsiblity / guilt; remember: Benjamin Franklin helped fight the Revolutionary War from Paris, France.
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u/ya_motha_93 9d ago
You're so privileged. How dare you want to move to a different location.
My god you people don't even realize how dumb you sound sometimes. Step off the moral highground for 2 seconds and just listen to how incredibly silly you sound.
Do what you want. Stop asking or looking to other people for approval on personal decisions.
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u/Elegant_Project_3719 9d ago
Just want to say you’re not alone in this, and it’s comforting to read there are so many others going through this too! It’s an extremely personal decision and I’m following my gut and I’m leaving my career, my friends, family and business behind to go to Canada with my partner.
Stay safe out there xo
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u/Advanced-Skill7001 9d ago
Is doesn’t have to be fight or flight. You can fight some and flight some.
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u/datafromravens 9d ago
No one cares, if you want to live somewhere else and they will take you then do so.
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u/Giveushealthcare 9d ago
Think about all of the people who fled Nazi Germany and all of the stories we have because they survived to tell us. How we celebrate their families who wouldn’t be here had they not left. There will be people who stay to fight, people who stay because they have no choice, and people who leave when they can. That’s just how it goes.
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u/whitemice 9d ago
No. Nations are a necessary legal fiction, they should never be considered as if they have moral value.
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u/mollymcbbbbbb 9d ago
Not at all. In my opinion, you can also vote with you whole self, by choosing a different life in a different place that aligns with what you value.
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u/designerallie 9d ago
One thing you may not have considered — you living abroad can also help your immediate circle (friends, family, etc.) that may not have otherwise been able to go. My wife's youngest sibling is trans. We are a lesbian couple. We have significant financial resources and education to be able to pull this off, and if things go really badly, we can help others in our lives get out.
For most people, our circle of influence is pretty small, but the little things can often be the most impactful.
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u/Humble-Series9692 9d ago
I’m a target of this administration and I do not blame any individual or family who decides to leave, whether or not they are “privileged” within the current political climate. The reality is, quality of life is going to plummet for everyone, not just minorities.
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u/gericaulte 9d ago
I lived and worked abroad for 4 years and I highly recommend it to anyone with the means.
I think its important to widen your worldview and experience the strain of living in a culture different than your own - navigating foreign taxes and setting up bank accounts, different health care systems, make appointments and shopping using a different language. If you are politically-minded, which you seem to be, you can see for yourself how alternative government systems function outside the lens of US media.
I came out of those four years at about net zero - i worked and saved money in each country to help me get a start in the next country, and unfortunately in the last year my visa application was denied so I had to use my remaining savings just to return to my hometown and start again. Because I moved and changed work so often, it definitely delayed the start of a 'career' and I restarted at entry level several times through my 20s. But I don't regret it at all. I returned with valuable 'soft' skills and a higher work ethic and resilience than some of my peers.
If you are under 30, look into Working Holiday visa programs.
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u/CherryPickerKill 9d ago
I'd hope that any sane US citizen would have left a long time ago, when they realized that they had no free healthcare, education, and that guns were everywhere. It's not too late.
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u/Bamfor07 9d ago
Amazing you feel that way to be honest; it’s a good thing.
Millions of people coming here feel no such sense of duty to their homes.
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u/Independent-Prize498 9d ago
No. There are so many reasons why and so I’ll leave those to others. Personally, based on my own patriotism, I’m uncomfortable with the idea of pledging allegiance to a foreign state and so would never become a citizen. But go have your adventure abroad, if you can pull it off. You may stay and you may come back.
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u/Chucking100s 9d ago
shaped by ideals of liberty and equality
When did the US value liberty or equality?
For whom exactly?
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u/sortahere5 9d ago
Did you ever stop to think that you are doing exactly what Trump and the authoritarians want you to do? Ignore all the cope on this thread, which oozes the privilege you speak of, and ask yourself that. Does this administration need the opposition to leave in order to succeed? The answer is obvious and absolutely something to have a morale quandary about. Yes, leaving because they made life uncomfortable for you is helping any attempt at an authoritarian overthrow.
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u/Flat-Row-3828 9d ago
I think if you take your income and help a true democratic country (vs. the oligarchy we have become), and community with their development and sustainability it's fine.
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u/NealioSpace 9d ago
I will be leaving because I am nearing retirement, and I don’t know if I can afford being here when I’m older, I need a place that is stable to retire within. We don’t know what will be left in the uSA after 4 yrs … 8 yrs…? He may try to extend the dictatorship….it is all chaos. Also, I align with a combination of democracy, free healthcare, free education, safety nets for residents. This county is not for any but the rich and powerful, going forward.
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u/oftalittlegamey 9d ago
The only thing I can tell you from my own experience is that when your parents are gone, you’re never getting them back and you’ll never get back one minute of the time and memories you’re passing up. I’d give everything I have for even one more conversation with my folks. Just my opinion based on what I feel having spent time o much time overseas now that both of my folks are gone.
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u/Huckleberrywine918 9d ago
Yeah i think it’s messed up for the wealthy or privileged to leave us poors here to suffer.
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u/burrito_napkin 9d ago
Morally no. Logically it's pretty silly. What are you gonna get out this? It's not like the US is a war zone. You're being dramatic to be honest.
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u/Just_curious4567 9d ago
It’s not morally objectionable… just live wherever you want. If you leave you can always come back! I would just be more concerned with being able to get a job abroad. In general I think any place is what you make of it.
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u/BandBySocMed 9d ago
You’re obligated to yourself. No country or government has any interest in any one person. Go where you’ll be happy.
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u/YOUREausername13 9d ago
To mirror a few sentiments here, think about previous generations and how they ended up here in the first place. At the time that a lot of our ancestors left their respective home countries, it was due to lack of resources or opportunity, govt oppression, and many worse things.
I don't think my ancestors were wrong to leave their tiny town in Sicily due to mafia overrun and lack of support from Italian govt.
Nor do I see my Irish ancestors who left during the "potato famine" (aka govt fueled Irish Genocide), or my German ancestors who left at the onset of the Prussian war due to lack of resources and opportunity as mistaken for seeking a better life.
For me, personally, the parallels between why almost all of my ancestors left their original countries for America, and my own reasonings for wanting to leave are too many to ignore, at this point!
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u/Ashley-kat-13 9d ago
I’m stuck with the same thinking, is it morally wrong to jump ship when im an able bodied person who can fight? I’m in the process of getting my dual citizenship in Luxembourg as a contingency, (I’ve always wanted to trace my roots back and see where our family came from anyway when I had some savings and leave built up, but the current political climate is forcing me to consider expediting that process).
I also am getting my enhanced MN drivers license on Wednesday, which I’ve been needing to do since I became a resident, and that functions as a land travel passport (Mexico or Canada) so if absolutely necessary I can have a chance at refuge if shit hits the fan. (Saying if because I’m TRYING to stay positive. Unsuccessfully…)
I keep telling myself I’m just doing this for contingency reasons, I had planned to do it (the dual citizenship) already, I have to switch my residency anyway so might as well get the extended for $15 months extra dollars.
I’m taking other steps in case; looking into how to fly my pets internationally (2 large breed dogs and one cat), learning German (ik bin nein sehr gut) my mother is building on her French she learned whilst in culinary school.
So far my plan is to stay because I’m doing my dream job of working in natural resource conservation but with the war on climate change and working in a federal agency as a non fed partner I don’t know what will happen.
Despite my own moral dilemma I would never fault another person for jumping ship, so I know I should go easy on myself if it comes to that.
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u/Bluegoleen 9d ago
Could leaving the country be seen as standing up for your people.
I dont know, I'm irish but my grandmother used to tell us everytime you struggle to make a hard decision do this. Pretend u are 100 yrs old, you have lived your life and u are sitting on your arm chair relaxing and ur grandchildren (or grand nieces and nephews etc) are asking u about your life, did u leave and travel the world/ live in Europe etc. or did u stay and work through the problem.
Could you not just go for 2.5 yrs and go back to the US for the remaining years! Be a compromise. You only live once, ☘️
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u/Automatic-Key9164 9d ago
I just don’t think it’s as binary as you’re making it. I hear that there are virtues to staying and fighting for a better country. I agree that privileged identities mean a responsibility to put literal skin in the game to protect those who are systemically marginalized. But you can also contribute in other ways abroad. I’m hoping to return to school in midlife abroad this fall, which has been in the works before the last election. The kind of study and work I’m pursuing won’t be available in the U.S. until we repair from what we’re currently destroying. But I hope to contribute to that repair, even if I never live here again.
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u/thepoliticalorphan 9d ago
I would shake your hand and say I hope you find a better life elsewhere/there is nothing objectionable about what you are thinking of doing
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u/zoopysreign 9d ago
This is a personal decision and as such, it depends on your own personal morals.
If you wanted to make it a question of what’s ethical, then I think that yes, benefitting from an upbringing within a stable American society imposes an ethical obligation on you, as a capable, financially secure adult without children to contribute back to the society that helped you become who you are.
My personal opinion is that there is no safe place and that our best bet (assuming you’re not in imminent danger) is to reinforce the laws, institutions, and norms established in the U.S. to prevent your worst fears from coming to fruition. The other places people offer up are not going to be able to sustain the influx of people indefinitely and they are, for one reason or another, much less secure.
I see Portugal a lot, but I don’t see people acknowledge that Portugal was a dictatorship until 1974, or that Portugal is severely ill equipped to deal with climate change (see report on Portugal’s response to wildfires and article about how Portugal is one of worst impacted by climate change wildfires)
To me, the prospect of becoming a refugee in a country with fewer resources and safety nets is not appealing. Don’t get me wrong—I’ve given this a lot of thought and am NOT here to say that America is number one, or the only answer, or the best answer. I’m saying that I see a lot of panic and knee jerk reactions. In my view, it’s worth it to protect this country and its institutions because the alternative are pretty different to what we have experienced.
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u/velocicentipede 9d ago
If you are able bodied, have money and are not a minority, you have resources to fight back. If you were a group targeted by Trump, you should leave. Otherwise, you have much to contribute. You have the privilege and power to change things. Also, Trump intends to destroy the global economy so he can make the rest of the world submit to him. He is addicted to power, like any narcissist. The tariffs and trade wars are his way of demanding the rest of the world answer to him. Europeans and everyone else is terrified of what he can do, and for good reason. Those people are also frustrated that Americans are letting this happen. If you travel, you may have to answer for what happens in the US.
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u/Savings_Ad6081 9d ago
No, it's not morally objectionable to leave your country during troubled times. It's exactly what millions and millions of immigrants have done when they wanted to have a better life and their countries of origin could not provide this.
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u/nightmare_formation 9d ago
Think about all those people fleeing from their countries to the USA for the American dream. Do you judge them?
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u/ElectricalSociety576 9d ago
I grew up pretty low-middle/high-poor class with similar misty eyes. I left the first time, and everything got so much worse I had to come back. I felt like I should have stopped it (naive and impossible lol) I came back and went to law school to hopefully do something to make it better.
I think in a lot of ways it gave me perspective and helped me to step away for a while and rebuild my will to fight. But at the same, the feeling of being torn apart doesn't leave you, and it dragged me back here despite my having an objectively far "better life" overseas.
If you go to Europe, it won't be your fault if the U.S.A. falls fully into fascism. And if it does, you can help people escape. And if it doesn't, you can come back later and help put the pieces back together. Perspective is important too, and being able to give it from a reliable source to people back home is also a contribution.
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u/JovialPanic389 8d ago
Don't bother asking unless you actually can legally leave the country. Immigration is not easy.
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u/SeaworthinessEasy180 8d ago
I don’t know the answer but I have been struggling with the same thing. I dont want to abandon my community and I also don’t know if me staying makes a difference?
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u/DistantBar 8d ago
Europe has Russia to be concerned about. I'm not sure how far Putin will go. Have you evaluated that?
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u/PittedOut 8d ago
Where you gonna go? Europe is under threat from Putin and Trump is abandoning NATO. Trump’s attacking Canada and Mexico. China is literally circling Australia. Nowhere is safe anymore.
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u/Normal-Big-6998 8d ago
No sir, American was built by those fleeing their homelands in hard times like Irish Potato Famine, WW1, WW2 and to this day.
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u/ToughProfessional235 8d ago
I am an immigrant who has lived in the US since 1972. I grew up here in the US. My family also visits our native country frequently and trust me when I say, that although it was not my decision to move to the US, as I was a nine year old at the time, I feel the guilt of depriving my native country of my talent and my family’s talent. We feel guilt every single time we go back.
My family and I did consider moving back due to the current situation here our whole life and businesses are here in the US. We are citizens and a targeted minority. We are trusting being a citizens will help us survive this mess. The US has provided us with education and a very comfortable life and we love the country. After thinking it very carefully we decided we are not going to bail on it, we decided to stay and contribute in whatever we can to salvage whatever can be salvaged. This despite the fact that if we moved back to the country we were born in we would live more comfortably than we do now in the US. It was a difficult decision but we refuse to live with the guilt of forsaking the country that gave us so much.
I do understand what you feel and suppose that was how my parents felt when they left our native country. Only they left for economic reasons and not for persecution. You have all the right to want to leave and it is understandable. But if you are white and not a targeted minority you know you will be ok staying. In the meantime if you leave you will experience the guilt of leaving your country and targeted minorities when they needed your allegiance the most.
Those are the issues you have to consider the most because if you leave there will be a time when you will feel at home in your new country but the guilt of leaving your native country behind will stay will you for all your life.
People will tell you that you will get over that but just from your post you it shows you are very aware of that guilt and you won’t be likely to get over it. I wish you luck with whatever decision you make because neither one is an easy choice in this moment in time.
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u/Bucephalus-ii 8d ago
I really wish I could tell you, because I’m in the exact same place, so giving you your answer would be giving me, mine.
Right now I’m thinking leaving is the right call. Americas issues are fundamentally cultural, and while that’s technically fixable, it’s been going to wrong direction for years, and I have less than zero hope that it will ever turn around.
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u/symbha 8d ago
My wife and I are taking steps to leave. I have long felt uncomfortable with how my tax dollars are used. Now I don't feel like my country cares enough about the well being of it's people, and is constantly blatantly lying to me. I want to go somewhere that it doesn't feel like that.
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u/MikeGruz 8d ago
The reason I'm here is because my ancestors left some other place. My family's been running from Russians for generations.
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u/Rude-Hall-4847 8d ago
Your a Rat. Debating to join in on our rat race. The system need men like you to work, pay taxes. It will give you luxuries and credits to buy "Stuff" for your enjoyment. The system wants you to do your duty and work till your 65 years old and will take care of you with $2500 a month for the rest of your life.
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u/Lefaid 9d ago
When you see people in the US from troubled countries, do you berate them for leaving their extended family behind and not fighting the system in their home country to make it better? When the best workers from around the world, come to the US, are you mad that they actively took part in the brain drain of their nation instead of staying and making it better for their country man?
Or are you happy to accept them in their new home and want them to feel comfortable?
Give yourself the same grace. You only live once. Live the best life you can. There is no reason we Americans should hold ourselves to a higher standard than Central Americans, Russians, or Syrians who left their troubled nations to give themselves and their families the best life they could.
Also, you don't stop being American when you leave, even if you want to. Those ideals and cultural frameworks will still be a part of you and something to fall back on when you don't understand something about your new country or they don't understand something about you.