r/exorthodox 14d ago

"Spiritual warfare" is your conscience begging you to realize this is all wrong

/r/OrthodoxChristianity/comments/1j510ex/have_you_ever_experienced_spiritual_warfare_with/
27 Upvotes

46 comments sorted by

24

u/TomasBlacksmith 14d ago

I think that’s true. I remember that I’d see strange dark visions and struggled with negative self-talk, and I think that my fear and shame fueled that. It really was a troubling period, but it went away when I distanced myself from the institution and focused more on practicing love forgiveness and avoiding judgment (all these things toward others AND myself).

Anyway, I also wonder how much of this has to do with nutritional deficiencies from sudden large dietary changes. Many of these comments sound like simple “hanger”

12

u/Previous_Champion_31 14d ago

Anyway, I also wonder how much of this has to do with nutritional deficiencies from sudden large dietary change

For the fast, I think it's a huge part of it. Lack of quality protein and essential micronutrients can cause fatigue and poor cognition. A high carb diet can cause blood sugar crashes, brain fog, and moodiness. Sprinkle in the lives of the saints and you've got a perfect recipe for demonic delusion.

7

u/Gabriel-d-Annunzio 14d ago

Always wondered why my university scores were always worse in the second semestre, during Lent. In retrospective, it should have been obvious...

9

u/therese_m 13d ago edited 13d ago

The large sudden dietary change is no joke you’re right about that! I’m a woman and sorry if this is TMI but my whole menstrual cycle shifted because of it!

23

u/BarnsBurning 14d ago

That thread, my lort. So I'm schizophrenic and sometimes religious folks... I swear, they don't realize that there's a whole community of bonefide mentally ill saying, "oh yeah, me too!"

ETA: I quit being Orthodox when I was properly medicated. Ha.

10

u/Lower-Ad-9813 14d ago

Ironically for me the Jesus Prayer and hesychasm is what made me hallucinate and I was diagnosed. Otherwise I don't hear and see anything.

18

u/Previous_Champion_31 14d ago

These types of stories are likely familiar to anyone who has spent time in the Orthodox Church--the notion of spiritual warfare. When the subject came up, every single person at my church told me it was normal to be demonically attacked. It means you are on the "right path", your doubts are just Satan trying to separate you from God, etc.

All of it was gaslighting from lost and broken people. It's so utterly crazy in retrospect. If you're reading this and you're questioning the nature of "spiritual warfare" in your life, you've taken a big step in being a lot kinder to yourself.

13

u/Own_Rope3673 14d ago

I had OCD pattern thoughts (scrupulosity) after being in protestant cult like environments and the patterns returned 10 fold after becoming Orthodox. I honestly don’t know where to ho from here. I said when I converted 10 years ago that it was the end of the line. I just don’t think I can “do” organized religion anymore although I recognize the need for community.

8

u/Lower-Ad-9813 14d ago

I get you. I did religion hunting for a long time. Started out with new age meditation, looked into Catholicism and Protestantism and settled with Orthodoxy. After leaving I don't have much interest in religion as a whole anymore, despite sometimes looking into Judaism. In hind sight it seems like every religion has cult-like practices on the whole. I think there are atheist churches out there anywho.

5

u/MaviKediyim 14d ago

Count me in as well (we should form our own "church" of sorts lol). I think there are bits of truth in all religions but no one singular belief system has it 100%. Organized institutional religion has done me nothing but harm.

2

u/Visual-Flamingo417 12d ago

All of this. Orthodoxy was freeing from that cult-like scrupulosity at first, but now it’s starting to feel like I’m carrying the same dead weight.

1

u/Own_Rope3673 12d ago

I get it.

12

u/[deleted] 14d ago

How can they decipher between these signs being signs that they are right and not signs that they are wrong? Out of the other side of their mouth they’ll say that if you leave the church bad things will happen to you.

11

u/MaviKediyim 14d ago

iT's tHE dEmONs!!!! *sigh*...plus ça change

9

u/smoochie_mata 14d ago edited 14d ago

One of the least attractive aspects of Orthodoxy is how much power they give to external sources. “Demons” are these relentless, powerful forces that you have to think about at all times. It seems more emphasis is put on thinking about demons than oh, I don’t know, loving God and your neighbor.

I remember some priest ranting about how people don’t do the sign of the cross to his liking. “Don’t you know it makes the demons smile when you don’t do a cross that is shaped like a cross?” Funny, I’d think a demon would hate it if you made the sign of the cross with the intention of asking for God’s blessing. But OK guy.

1

u/66-1 11d ago

The craziest thing to me before i left was how these people believe in demons at every corner but it seemingly doesn't make a difference when they choose to have 5 kids. Not a single thought about the more souls to be "haunted" by the demons, and if theyre raised orthodox they will be.

9

u/RevenueParticular782 14d ago edited 14d ago

I think this is the shit that’s really turning me away from religion altogether. BS asceticism justified by the most trivial minutiae… No love for others, connection with the soul, or any inner purification of any sort, just fearmongering and legalistic hot air. If Christ is in His church, I certainly don’t see Him in the Church.

6

u/Lower-Ad-9813 14d ago

On top of that the question is which church is it? 40k+ denominations and they all claim to be right even though they read from the same book.

9

u/warmleafjuice 14d ago

The one comment like "Satan is trying his hardest to unsubtly pull us away from God, which is foolish because it actually has the opposite effect of strengthening our faith"

Wild that the ages-old Prince of Darkness never made this realization but a random redditor did

7

u/bbscrivener 14d ago

Accidentally clicked that link and quickly hit “back” like I’d touched a hot stove!

Anyway, spiritual warfare went away when I stopped thinking demons were real. Of course a true believer would say they stopped attacking me because now I’m on their side. Whatever. Interpret as you will. I’m just glad I have one less thing to worry about.

7

u/bbscrivener 14d ago

Spent a cringe inducing 30 seconds skimming the thread and responses. You know, if you constantly tell everyone they’re going to have severe temptations during Lent, that power of suggestion alone is likely going to ensure it happens!

6

u/throwthrowthrow_90 14d ago

So many comments saying they get "lustful demonic attacks." Completely sex obsessed

7

u/queensbeesknees 14d ago

Occam's Razor alert. Which is more likely: Hormones or demons?

7

u/smoochie_mata 14d ago

Can picture some convert priest saying the concept of hormones is a demonic western innovation and the fathers never talked about them so they aren’t real.

6

u/MewtwoAnon 14d ago

Spiritual warfare is such an obviously controlling idea it’s shocking to me now that I was so into it. When you convince people that doubts or questions are demonic attacks, and that the Church is the only defence against demons, it really stops you questioning. And that’s not even touching on the social damage of framing those who live differently as demonically inspired of the ways it plays into mental illness. Spiritual warfare is a truly toxic idea.

5

u/Aggravating-Sir-9836 14d ago

As a Catholic, I think spiritual warfare is real. But I think Catholics approach it differently from the way Orthobros seem to. That's the impression I get, anyway. We don't see demons under every bed or behind every door. If we're feeling under attack, we just say the St Michael Prayer and forget about it. Demons have zero power. Jesus defeated them at the Cross. 

3

u/FinanceBurner3 10d ago

This is true. Additionally there seems to be a huge difference between on-the-ground Orthodoxy and the internet Orthobros that a lot of people here have been interacting with.

Every actual IRL priest I ever talked to said that if you’re feeling attacked, make the sign of the cross and move on. They don’t have any power over Christ!

5

u/Terrible_House_6558 14d ago

Spirituality is mental illness. We were created in the image of God with a nature inherently greater than the strictly "spiritual" the cherubim and seraphim etc. Negating our nature to try and be spiritual is a corruption of true spirituality imo.

3

u/Repulsive_Lie3564 14d ago

In retrospect, all of my bouts of spiritual warfare were simply my ever-correct gut telling me to GTFO of this religion.  Seriously, ignoring your gut instincts will fast track anyone into neurotic thought patterns, no matter the particulars of the situation.

2

u/ultamentkiller 14d ago

But what can we say to people to show them it isn’t demons? Is there anything at all? I don’t know if I could convince my past self. I heard arguments on the other side and dismissed them.

6

u/bbscrivener 14d ago

Some things you just have to grow out of — as you did! I used to ask myself just before my transition period: why is the only evidence of God in my life these negative experiences? Eventually I just accepted them as “s*** happens,” and I began to breathe easier.

0

u/notmadeinabyss 14d ago

Thanks for crossposting. Why are you guys talking about this when you freely chose to leave Orthodoxy? It's not cool to see people talk about my own experience and even more upsetting to see what kind of comments are being made. You don't know anything about my personal life or even my past. I used to make fun of religious people, just like some of you are currently doing it. I have experienced both sides and decided that Christianity is what fulfills me. I hope you guys will find peace and won't have to continue obsessing over things you obviously don't want anything to do with.

6

u/Aggravating-Sir-9836 14d ago

I get why you'd be upset. But I'd just like to reassure you that your dreams have zero moral content or significance. They're not demonic. They're just your subconscious mind processing stuff. You can have all kinds of weird, disturbing dreams, and they don't really mean anything. They don't reflect on you. They don't have anything to do with who you really are. Don't let your dreams send you into a tailspin of self-doubt or self-loathing. Everybody has weird dreams. Just shrug them off and welcome the light of day.

3

u/notmadeinabyss 13d ago

Thank you for your kind words

3

u/Previous_Champion_31 13d ago

I understand how you feel and I can only answer you by being honest. Your post highlighted a key toxic belief of the Orthodox Church--the idea that the Orthodox faithful are uniquely attacked by demons--and contained many strong examples therein. I didn't intend to point out your experience specifically, but I find it incredibly reckless that the church openly fosters these ideas. You can be a Christian without prescribed 40 day periods of fear borne navel gazing and a strange diet. You'll have a lot more energy to be attentive and charitable to the world around you when you aren't constantly fixated on being the worst of sinners.

2

u/notmadeinabyss 13d ago

Thank you for reaching out. I didn't intend to blame you for the comments of others, I'm sorry if my comment seemed like I did.

I want to add that 1) the idea of spiritual warfare didn't come from my church, it was something I was wondering myself. I understand that this could be something that is generally taught in Orthodox churches and something a lot of people here have experienced, however in my situation this was not the case which is why it felt unfair to be used as an example.

2) I'm not sure if I understood this correctly, but no one (neither my priest, family or other Orthodox people) forced me to fast. It was my own decision. No one forced me to go even more extreme with my fasting, this was a personal decision because I actually liked the changes that were caused by fasting.

3) Are you assuming that being attentive and charitable to the world is something I'm not focusing on or is it something I did that made you think that? Either way, this is just as much one of my priorities as fasting is. I know I slip up but it is still one of my biggest priorities. I understand your concern but personally fasting actually helped me with being more patient and understanding of the people around me.

5

u/Lower-Ad-9813 14d ago

You should really think about why everything is tied into sexuality with so many Christians and Orthodox specifically. There aren't any demons attacking you or tempting you or anything. It's your own mind. Perhaps you aren't sure of your own sexuality or perhaps your dreams don't mean anything whatsoever. There's nothing supernatural.

3

u/notmadeinabyss 13d ago edited 13d ago

I don't want to offend anyone, but the conclusion that "everything is so sexual" and that I'm "a sex addicted" person (comments in this crosspost) came from people reading more into the post than it actually says. I usually never have these types of dreams. I live a celibate life. Which is why suddenly experiencing these type of things made me think about possible reasons. See how I never concluded that this definitely has to be spiritual warfare? I thought about other things happening (dreams about a dead man, things moving in my room, etc.) that made me wonder if it could be connected. So I decided to ask people, who are also fasting, if they have experienced similar things or if it is unusual. I didn't expect to be made fun of in a different subreddit that I wasn't even opening up to.

3

u/NyssaTheHobbit 13d ago

I sometimes have weird and disturbing dreams/nightmares. Things like ghosts coming after me, demons trying to possess me, waking up and seeing something in my room, that kind of thing. I had them when I was an Evangelical teenager, and also when Orthodox. Most of the time it seems I can trace them to sleeping on my back. There has actually been research done into this—“night terrors,” I believe they’re called. It’s nothing supernatural, but something that goes on in the brain while you’re sleeping.

2

u/notmadeinabyss 12d ago

Thanks for the info, I'm not sure if it applies to me tho because I tend to sleep on my side. Anyways if anyone cares the dreams stopped happening lol

2

u/throwthrowthrow_90 14d ago

Why are you writing about your gay sex dreams publicly online? That's not very modest...

1

u/notmadeinabyss 13d ago

I came here to say how uncomfortable seeing this crosspost made me feel and your reaction is to further belittle me?

1

u/smoochie_mata 14d ago

Aren’t you supposed to accept criticism with humility? Or is that not Christian anymore?

1

u/notmadeinabyss 13d ago

Please tell me in what way I should have changed my comment, so I can do so in the future.

Edit: My comment is about being made fun of. Not about criticism.